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Hello everybody and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we explore the psychology of our 20s. Of course, it is guest month, December month. And we have an amazing guest, a homegrown Aussie guest here with us today. You may know her from her incredible podcast, Do you fucking mind?
Alexis, how are you guys? Oh, you're so excited to be here. It's like two worlds colliding. It is two worlds colliding. I was like, this had to happen, right? I know. I've never spoken before. How? And we've just been sitting here now for like, I don't know how long, just like we can't stop talking.
Literally before we started recording, we were like having a discussion around zombie apocalypse. I don't know. How do we go to fire safety hazards and dead bolts on doors? Yeah, not really relevant to psychology or self care, but nonetheless was fulfilling for me. It was. I know. We've come up with some ideas to message our landlords. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that.
So I think it's something that I don't even think I said this to you, but when I was in university, I was a do you fucking man? Stan. Really? Amazing. I still listen to it now, obviously, but I remember going through my first huge breakup when I was 18 years old and listening to your episodes on these nature walks through camera. Oh my god, I love that. Being like, heal me.
Look, that is the best. I love that. It's a full circle moment for me. Yeah, this is amazing. And I feel like, I don't know, I feel like most of the people that were like the OGs who have like shared the podcast and listened to it, they found me at a time of like deepest heartbreak, which is really, really cool. And then they've like gone on that journey of like self discovery and, you know, learning. I feel like you learned so much about yourself when you're heartbroken. It's like the biggest learning curve. It's pretty. And now I feel so when people like, I've never been heartbroken.
I'm like I'm a little bit sorry for you because it's such, I don't know, it's such a rich experience. I used to say like heartbreak is sacred. Isn't it? Because it's exactly as you said people, I think enter into a lot of like personal development and self growth through heartbreak and then they're suddenly like awoken to this whole
Bigger spectrum of other things that are going to improve their life But they wouldn't have accessed if that like loser hadn't you know cheated on them or like totally so you need to go through that pain you need to go through Something just not being fair and how do you deal with that? Like how do you I think we're when when before you've experienced that you've never experienced Truly an unfair situation where there's no sense that can be made from it
Like, how do you move forward from something that can't be fixed and can't be made sense of? And that's where you learn so much about your resilience and how you make peace with something just yourself and not fun closure and not, you know? Like, the closure thing I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, and she was like, how am I meant to move on when I can't stop thinking about this person? No, yeah. And I was like, you need to provide your own emotional closure in this moment. 100%. I don't know. So we're not even talking about heartbreak. We may as well be.
I love that this we just get straight into the cap straight into it. It's like immediately like, what are we here for inspiration? But what we are really here to talk about today is a topic that I think is so important during this season of the dealing with difficult family members, complex family dynamics. I don't love the word toxic, but I do think it applies here.
it does to certain to certain families it definitely would because I feel like what we were discussing before with some families there's a lot of there's a lot of issues but it's not necessarily toxic it's just clashing of the minds versus situations where it's really genuinely unhealthy and someone's genuinely out to get you kind of thing you know yeah well that was the that was something I was really interested in asking you about is like
I think we use the term toxic to describe a whole different pattern of behaviors. What are some of the key ones that you think are most typical of those? In complex family dynamics, what are some of the behaviors that we should be looking out for to identify that maybe this relationship, although its family, is actually not that healthy? Yeah, so I guess you've got to pull apart what is
Cuz I always say when you're trying to form new relationships like the biggest thing that you can do is just like number one seek to understand you don't have to agree, but try and see where someone's coming from because sometimes you can look at it from a place of oh wow, a big one that I get is women who don't get along with their sister-in-laws.
And I think a lot of that stems from you've taken my brother away from me. I'm getting defensive. So if you can understand it from that perspective, you're like, can I crack this person and get them to like me? Because they're just feeling a little bit insecure right now. They're feeling like this person's been taken away from them. If I can approach it in a clever way, I can turn this around. Not that it's on your shoulders, but you could potentially.
by you know opening up to them and being vulnerable to that person and then they're like oh you're human just like me you're not this big scary girlfriend that swept in and taken my brother who's my best friend you're actually a feeling human and then they can open up versus you genuinely feeling attacked because the family might not agree with you know the fact that
It's a big one. It's a gay relationship or it's a divide in beliefs or they don't like your lifestyle. So they're just like, we don't accept you. That's it. And to try and all parents, a huge one is where mothers don't want to let go of their sons, sometimes daughters as well. But I find a really common one is mom's like digging their heels in being like, it's my baby. And they want to like coddle their adult son. And it's like,
like that. Yeah. And I've got heaps of listeners, but friends as well, who really struggle with that one and trying to have a decent relationship with the mother-in-law is a huge one. And then when it comes to like Christmas holiday season, they want their kids, adult kids with them all the time. They want nothing to have changed. So it's, I guess it's really difficult to navigate this relationship when
They're the ones that have to, like they've got their kids, they've got to accept that their kids are growing up and the dynamic is going to change and a lot of families can't accept that. They can't accept change. Whereas you're the one who's like, well, I'm just growing into this world. I'm becoming an adult. I'm experiencing all these new things. Why am I being attacked? What have I done wrong?
I'm listening to that being like applying that to so many situations in my own life. And I'm like, wow, that is actually quite universal. That is so universal. You made such a good point there. I think the reason why a lot of us in our 20s in particular start to experience this friction for the first time is because it is the first kind of period or chapter in our life.
in which we are rejecting the label of child. And that's just not like personally, that's like saying almost to our families, I'm not a kid anymore. Like your relationship to me might be that I'm your child, but I'm also an adult who is trying to set up their own life, who has boundaries around how I want to be treated now. And I think it's also natural to go through a period where you detach from your family and then you come back.
The other one that I think is really interesting, which comes up all the time during this period, is differing political beliefs. And I find this in my own family quite a bit. Not with my parents per se, but with my extended family.
where just because you're related doesn't mean you're going to agree on everything. What's your advice from that? Have you seen that in your friendship group as well? Definitely, definitely. And when it comes to political, this is like a really good topic because I feel like when it comes to difference in politics, one thing that I always raise with my family, my in-laws, with anyone who might differ in their political beliefs, friends, is that I say there's a difference between a debate, I love a debate, versus a argument.
And I don't think it's the healthiest thing to become emotionally attached to a political party. You should be able to criticize the party that you are voting for. That's what makes an informed decision. So when I see people get really emotional and angry about a political thing, it's like, are you forming your identity around this attachment? Or are you able to be like, this is the right party for this time?
to run this country. So you should be able to flick between political parties. You shouldn't make your identity about a party. And if you happen to align with a party for your whole life, fun. That's great. But it's this idea of, I think, people feel when you attack the political party, you're attacking me. Now I'm going to get angry. Now I'm going to get defensive. But it's like, I'm not.
I'm just raising something. Have you thought about it in this way? Have you looked at it in that way? And I always say to people, I like to debate, but if you're going to start character assassinating me, then I can't have this conversation. But I'd love to discuss. I don't have to change your mind. You don't have to change mind. But I like seeing how other people think and teaching me why they think that way.
as long as they're open to hearing the same back. It's like coming at it from approach of like openness and learning. I always, I was saying this to someone the other day, you sometimes get into these discussions with people and you can see it in their eyes that they are looking for an argument.
Do you know what I'm talking about? It's like this fire where it's like you can see that something has lit up in them, where you can tell in those moments that what you're talking about for you might be a discussion. For them is a projection of their identity. Big time. And those are the topics that you need to just, I think,
Step away from. And the people that, and you can figure this out really, really quickly, when you speak to someone and you can tell that they're just thinking of the next thing they're going to say instead of listening to what you're actually saying and responding accordingly. So it's like, I know you're just brewing up your next argument. You're not listening to me. So I think sometimes you also have to just pick your battles with certain people. You're not going to be able to have a healthy debate with everybody.
And sometimes I think while you are in your right to say what you want to say, sometimes I think for your own peace of mind, just don't, just be your own sake. You know, you just suffer. Sometimes you cause yourself all this suffering because you're like, but, you know, I can have these conversations with these people, but they're different people. You know, you've got to manage your expectations around people.
especially with family. It's like, I think it's hard because I think when we're talking about dealing with difficult family members, right? Like we have a few categories here. Yeah. We have, as you said, like the relationships where there was friction caused by change, where, you know, the son has grown up and gotten a girlfriend and the mother is like really struggling to deal with that. I think that's like environmental. I think part of that is also
we can put in like political beliefs as well. There is again a friction in that sense of like there is a disagreement. Then you have like genuine clinically severe behaviors like narcissism, like compulsive lies, like even abuse or controlling behaviors, which we'll talk about more in a second. And then I think you have this other side, which is
parents who are really or family members who are really trying their best, but are dealing with something that is making it so your relationship is frayed. So I got this question the other day from someone that was talking about how her mother is experiencing a really bad episode of depression. And that is by nature, creating difficulties in their relationship, creating a difficult dynamic where
Her mother is probably not, isn't really acting in a way that I think is how we would say a mother acting because of what's going on. How do you think we deal with those different categories of people like the, the friction, the, like the clinical severe and then just the people who are perhaps not in a great place?
Yeah, so with people that are not in a great place, I always say whether it could be depression or like there's so many different categories. But always try and remind yourself that that person is not the depression, that person is not the X, Y, Z, you know, they are two separate things. So sometimes
someone might treat you in a certain way or push you away or or create conflict within the relationship because they're going through this internal suffering and it impacts the relationship and it's you know ideally you want to find a way so the relationship doesn't break down you want to find a way of being like every time I have this interaction I have to be at the forefront of my mind has to be they are not the depression and them are two separate things and the depression will get in the way
and that's not their intention. So how do you find a way to maintain your boundaries for your own mental health, but also have patience and understanding in that space? And sometimes you might need to pull away just a little bit and be there for them, but say, you know, like, I can't spend 10 hours with my mum now.
Because it's I leave and I'm in a state, but maybe I can find different ways of really being there for her. That's just going to have to be different. Sometimes your relationships will have to evolve in a different way. So you feel like you're still there for them, but you also have to, you know, protect yourself as well. So you're not also going to be spiraling as well.
I think that all relationships are always evolving and to think, and this is where a lot of problems with relationships start with parents, the dynamic between parents and children, is that you always have to look at relationships as evolving. If you accuse someone of you've changed, it's like, well, that's inevitable. Of course, they've changed. Everyone's going to change.
change. And when I look at my relationship with my partner, I know that we're going to go through many relationships within this one relationship. Who will be when we're 40 is not who we were when we met. And it's your job to try your best to evolve together, you know, but to think I never changed you change. And this is why the marriage broke down, which happens all the time, or with parents and kids. It's like, well, isn't that what we're supposed to do? Aren't we supposed to evolve and change?
And that can happen for the worse as well. With someone getting sick, someone having some disorder, you've got to find a way to come into that next phase of the relationship and it will be different. It's really hard when that happens, I think, because we all like to talk about unconditional love and unconditional love sounds brilliant and I do think it's possible.
But I think especially as you begin to realize that your parents are human too. We see them as being on this pedestal for a lot of our lives. For so long. And I think that all of us have a moment, and I'm sure you have one, where you were like, oh.
My parent is like my my mom my dad is This is their first time being alive as well like they are figuring all of this out at the same time as me They're just a little bit further along so true, and it's so I think that's difficult when you see them go through
hard periods. And maybe it's like hard periods in your parents marriage. Maybe it's like how your relationship with your parent is going to adapt post divorce. Exactly. And seeing them suffer and seeing them overcome things and being like, wow, you were this
this untouchable thing when I was a kid who knew everything. And now I'm realizing that, you know, I'm soon going to be the age that you were at, you know, and you just start having, it's like, wow, how are you parenting? And I'm that age now. And how, you know, it's just blows your mind to realize you didn't have it all figured out when I was a kid.
and maybe giving them that if it is like the right decision for you giving them that level of like not just forgiveness but like that that space to make mistakes as much as you are still like I think viewing
It's not that you need to view your parents as a friend because I think that changes the dynamic. It does. And it can be quite difficult, but viewing them as just as fallible, just as like flawed as you are, in the same way that you would want other people to accept your mistakes, you should be willing to accept a degree of their mistakes as well. Of course. Yeah. I think that's really important.
There are some instances, though, where that is not possible. Exactly. Yeah. And you mentioned narcissists and narcissistic parents or in-laws is like a really difficult one to navigate. You have a great episode on this, by the way. I did have a specific episode on that. So good. Because I did want a narcissist. And then I had all these people being like, what about mother-in-law? What about my mom? What about my dad? And so I thought, okay, well, this absolutely. I put it in the description. Can you hear a lot about
narcissist in relationships, and normally you'll hear it being the man who's the narcissist and the woman who's dating it. But then when you hear about, because you can have just as many females as male, it's hard to put a number on it because a lot of people who are narcissists aren't going and getting diagnosed as narcissists. Not probably. It's definitely extremely underdiagnosed.
But that's when you see it's like, oh, this is across all genders. It doesn't matter. Narcissistic parents are a huge one. And the weird thing is that often the child, so say you're dating someone and their parents are clearly narcissists.
Often the person you're dating doesn't realize that. They're just like, oh, they're just difficult. They make all these excuses similar to what we were just talking about before, where your parents are these, you want them to be perfect. They're your parents. You are them. That's why it hurts to say your parent criticizes the other parent because you're criticizing half of me. That's why children suffer and divorce if it's a horrible divorce because they feel
torn, you know. And so when you, when you're trying to let your partner realize without being aggressive, how do you get your partner to really identify that their parents are narcissistic? Sometimes they see it, sometimes they don't. And when they don't see it, it's really hard to navigate that. So I always say, don't straight up say to someone, your parents are narcissists, your mother is a narcissist.
you always start with, always put the question back on them. Like, does this behavior happen all the time? When, you know, just start getting them to do some self discovery. When was the first time they did something like that? Or when was the first time they put you in that position? And do they do that with all your siblings? And you just start like just questions. And then they were like, oh, wow. Oh, yeah, right. That's not weird. And then they figure it out for themselves. You know, you just got to get dig under the surface. And then it's then you create an environment where it's comfortable for them to talk about it.
and never ever character assassinate your partner's parents, no matter how annoyed you are, because again, you're insulting them. Obviously, you're not meaning to, but that's how they perceive it as. It's like the whole thing of like, oh, I'm allowed to talk shit about this person, but the moment you do, it's not okay. It's like you'll break up with someone, and then you're allowed to say everything under the sun about that person, but then someone insults you're like, oh, what?
And you're like, but I loved them, so what does that say about me? Yeah, yeah. Are you judging my judgment or what my choice is? And you know that they're right. It's the same thing with siblings. No, they're right. Yes. It's like, I'm allowed to say whatever I want about my sisters, but the exact minute they come to me again, one of their friends has said something wrong. Oh my God. I'm like, I'm gonna fucking hunt you down.
Like how dare you say that? That's it? A road. But then you can say it, you know, it's kind of that dynamic. So I think definitely tread carefully, but I think that if you can set up a really comfortable open space to have a conversation about the behaviors.
off your parents always say like turn it into speaking about the behavior and not them as a person this behavior is unhealthy this behavior is unacceptable I'm gonna put a boundary against this interaction or this situation so it doesn't happen again and then you're not saying they're a nice hole they're an idiot they fucked in the head you know because if you start saying stuff like that then that's when it comes across as you like genuinely even if you do it makes it look like you hate their parents and it's how do I navigate this
Carefully, because if your partner didn't have a good enough relationship with their parents, that wouldn't be an issue. Because the only reason you say you're in-laws is because your partner has a good relationship with their in-laws. So the difficulty in navigating it is when your partner has that relationship and you've got a slot in there somehow. It's also really interesting because it
It kind of shows this weird distinction, right? Not so much a distinction, but as someone of an innate competition as we get older between the family we grew up with and the family that we're going on to create. And I think that sometimes it's very easy for people to be like, well, this is my family now. I need to prioritize my partner and our future together. But that's also a really hard distinction for some people to make. There is still that innate loyalty to the people that have raised them. And maybe you are someone who is recognizing
for yourself that your own parents are like that. How do you go about, I guess, it might not even be narcissism. It might be that in the past, things were not as healthy as they are now. They might still be unhealthy, toxic, whatever label you want to give it.
How do you go about having those difficult conversations once you have identified and done some of that exploration and realized that this person, although you may love them, is perhaps not a good figure in your life right now? That's really hard, as we all know. I think it's really hard to bring up to somebody to criticize their parenting.
Because for a parent, their biggest job, their biggest accomplishment is raising a human or more than one human, you know, and to go in and criticize them, it's so hard to do to do it like delicately. And even if you do it in the most delicate way, they're not going to take it in the best way possible.
but i do still think obviously it's important to do so and when setting a boundary when saying something the best way to start is you say i no longer feel comfortable with this or are you make it about you every time i set a boundary i make sure that it's about me because if i say
You do this and you do that and you, you, you, you, you, then it feels like it's an attack and it feels like I'm trying to control how they're behaving. But if I say, listen, next time the situation arises, I don't want to be here if you're going to start yelling at me or I don't want to, you know, you try and just make it a bit more about I'm going to draw a line here. I've got a friend of mine and she had a really unhealthy relationship with her partner's mum.
And I just said to her, you're going over every Sunday and you're spending like 10 hours or eight hours at 10 hours and just so unpleasant the environment. Yeah, I can imagine. And then I said, firstly, why don't you draw a line and say, I don't have to go every Sunday for starters. I don't. I'm my own person. I'm an adult.
And when I do go, I can either come a little bit later, or I can leave a bit earlier. And then that just shows a level of independence, and it's like an unsaid rule of like, I can control myself here, like I want to come and see you, but I'm not pandering to everything that you want, you know? Just because my partner wants to be here for 10 hours, I don't have to. And it's not about being rude, you've come in, you give them the time of day, you have the conversation, you're putting in the effort, but then you're saying, okay, so good to see you guys.
Say yeah. Yeah, just like remove yourself from there. Yeah, no question about it. Like no, I will not take the coffee because sometimes the hard thing is that sometimes you'll have the best idea for the best conversation and that you say, and it's just not going to be taken in the right way. And they're just going to feel attacked. Sometimes a conversation cannot be had. And the only thing you can do is okay, given what I've got, like given what's in front of me, I have to work with what I've got.
And the best way to work with what I've got is to limit the interaction. So when I'm there, I'll just give it my all, but it's small doses. And then you find I can actually handle these people in small doses. Like a lot of people, they're like, oh, I love my in-laws, because I live three hours flying away. So we go there, I just don't get my time. I do my best. We don't like, we clash, but it's fine. And then I leave. If they were my neighbors, I'd hate them. So it's that kind of, so how can you navigate that if you live in the same city? Just like,
bring it back a little bit feel like you're a little bit more in control of yourself and I think that will really help you feel like
you know, not so much anxiety when you then have to go spend time with potential in-laws or even your own parents who might be causing you so much, so much stress. And then, but then you've got like the really unhealthy relationships. And I always said, like, just because you are tied together by blood, no one has a ticket into your life for free.
No one's got this golden ticket into your life. People have to earn their place in your life just like you have to earn your place in someone else's life. You can't go around disrespecting someone indefinitely and expect for your seat to still be there. So if it means cutting out someone because they treat you like shit, cut the person out.
And I think that there's some steps. I totally agree with that as well. I think there are some steps to take beforehand. The one that you just, the example that you just gave is like reestablishing your independence as an individual that goes for your in-laws and then also for your own parents, even for like sibling relationships that are quite draining or codependent or
any form of family relationship, maintaining a sense of independence when that person is trying to take more from you than you're willing to give as a huge one. But I do think there is something to be said about setting boundaries and seeing how people respond. Sometimes the outcome of a boundary is not that their behavior changes.
but that you see that they're incapable of doing it. That is something that I've started to realize where it's like, I think we often talk about, oh, you need to set a boundary. And we're like, oh, and then immediately assume that that person is going to meet that boundary once it's been spoken into existence. That's right. And they don't. And then it's actually just as, it might be disappointing, but it's just as valuable to you to teach you about their behavior. It is.
And sometimes setting a boundary doesn't mean that it's going to be respected, but you've vocalised where your limit is. And now it's not this arbitrary thing. It's like, I've now told you where that limit is. Whether you respect it or not, it's up to me how to respond to you respecting. But I always say, a boundary is not a boundary unless there are consequences.
You know, you can't say, this is my boundary and have it stomped all over every time. It's not a boundary. It's your, I, your, you wish it was your boundary, but unless there is a consequence for that boundary being crossed, it's not a boundary. Oh, that's such a good point. I think about this, like,
in relation to a family member of mine who has a real problem with making comments about people's appearances. Which I think is a big one. Oh my god. I get it. Different generation. I totally understand that they think that's fine. But I don't understand it anymore because I think that we have been very clear with them. My siblings have also been involved in this. I mean, no, you cannot make those comments anymore.
When you said a boundary is not a boundary without consequences, we were for years being like, please don't say that, please don't say that. I'm uncomfortable with you saying that. It was only when we were like, if you say that, we won't be coming here anymore. Exactly. That they were like, oh, or like, okay, I really didn't enjoy that. I'm leaving now. Exactly. That they started to listen to it. If you stand up and leave, that's a huge statement of like, it's that uncomfortable for me. You've made this song unpleasant. I'd rather not be here. Literally.
And that's when it's like, oh wow, this is, that's when they really, unfortunately it has to get to that point. But that's when they realize, oh my God, the fact that they're willing to leave. That's really not okay. Yeah. It really, and I think it was, and it was uncomfortable, it was uncomfortable being in those moments, but it was also uncomfortable walking away from them.
Because I think that that's the other thing. People, the reason that we cannot always set boundaries that work is because we think that setting your boundary is just a matter of speed of just like you said, of just saying, setting an intention for how we want to be treated rather than actually instigating it. So what are some tips for being like, firstly, identifying a boundary, secondly, really sticking to it, sticking to it and enforcing it.
Yeah, so there's two, because you can call it a boundary, but in your head, you can say, look, I could request that someone speak to me a certain way, but ultimately, I've just decided that no matter how they treat me, I'm never walking away, but I could just request it. That's one thing. And that's where you have zero expectations of the response. And you'd just be like, all right, whatever comes, I'm just going to accept. The second one is the boundary, where you're like, okay,
Only set a boundary when you know what it looks like once it's crossed. So when you say I'm setting this boundary, what now happens if they cross that boundary? What am I going to do? Because I've now put an expectation. A boundary has an expectation. A request hopefully doesn't. You would like them to start trading you nicely, but also you're like, could you please? And their answer could be no, and you're like, OK, sick.
Well, great, see you up now. Whereas the boundary, you're like, all right, if I'm going to set this boundary, I have to be willing to know what it looks like if they cross it and know exactly what my actions will be. Make a game plan for yourself, don't because then if you go and say, this is my boundary and then they cross it, then you're like, oh, and you choke up and then the pressure's on yourself and you feel terrible. And then you feel like you've been undermined.
Yes, once again, you're like, oh, it just hurts the relationship further. And then your confidence is shot and you're like, well, now my word means nothing because now if I try and set another boundary, they didn't respect that one. They're not going to respect this one. So before you go in with the boundary, give yourself a bit of a pep talk and be like, OK, if I'm going to set this boundary, what happens when they cross that? What will my actions be? I think the best one is to remove yourself from the situation. And don't make it this universal. Like, I'm never coming back. No, just saying.
I'm like you, like you did. It's something simple as when this happens, I'm not going to be in this space. So if you say it in the first minute of me arriving, I leave. If you say it after an hour, I leave. I just not going to be here if you're going to talk to me like that. And you can also say, and you'll realize that the more you do it, the less I'm going to want to prioritize hanging out with you versus hanging out with another invitation that I might have had.
And, you know, people, whether you like or not, people do have a hierarchy of who they want to spend time with. And it's the ones that they feel the most comfortable in themselves around. And they're the people you put at the top of that list, no matter how close they are or not to you as far as blood goes. So I think if you can, if you feel comfortable enough to be like, okay, if this happens, I'm walking away.
then set that boundary and you don't even have to say it like you don't even have to be like i have to know so i think about this in terms of a story another friend of mine said a big one is comments about not just appearance but comments about any kind of choice that you're making your lifestyle yeah yeah or even things that like your sexuality things that you don't have a choice around where it's like
What are you trying to do here? You're trying to change my mind? It's ridiculous. I think that's a big one. The other one is people who are compulsive liars or controlling, so people who are like, can you do this now? Or like who are, yeah, I think that's a huge one when they're like, oh, if you're in my house, you have to do X, Y and Z.
Controlling. Yeah, and I find that controlling and compulsive lies. I think both of those things will fall under the category of, I think when people can't control themselves, they control everyone else around them. So the less control you have over who you are and your circumstances, you try and control everyone. You look at those relationships where they're so controlling, these people are not happy with the life they've created for themselves. So they're like, given that I feel like I'm out of control in my circumstances.
I'm going to control you and feel like I'm empowered. And the same goes for that, like getting people to do things for them. This has to be done. You've come into my space and now you've got to do this. It's all about a lack of control in their own life and a lack of satisfaction as well, I feel.
That's so sad. It's like displacement, right? Yeah. Classic Freudian. It depends on the bad. You're like, oh, I'm so sorry for you. Yeah. And that's the thing, right? If they're acting in that way, you can just walk away without even being like, I'm leaving now. Yeah. Like, and text them later, just be like, okay,
My absence is a message here and hopefully they pick up on it. If you don't have the confidence to actually say that. Yeah, that's a huge one. What you just said with the confidence because I think a lot of people think on top of the fact that I've got to do this action, I then have to say something in a lot of people. They've not lived a life where they've just confidently said things whenever they thought it. And it's very difficult for a confident person. It's like, I'll just say it. But it's not like that for a lot of people. What do you mean you want me to stand up to my parents for the first time?
You know, it's daunting. So like you said, you don't have to say something. You can just leave. And I always say a text message, a letter, handwritten letter in the mail, but whatever to get your point across where you're cool, calm and collected is the best way to do it. If you can do it in person, great, but most people can't because they're like, yeah.
It's anxiety, it's so stressful. You've got all these good things to say the moment you get home. Why didn't I say all these things? Just remove yourself, cool, calm down, write everything you need to say, and then read it later, not send it straight away. And then they're like, oh, I'll edit that a little bit, and then send it. That might be a way. The other thing that you said there where I was like,
That is another really good reason to do that is because in the moment, like you said, you are probably going to be experiencing a great deal of anxiety. This is one of the first times you've ever been like to a family member, hey, not acceptable. Sometimes people can be really reactive to that. And that is going to escalate to the point where you are really reactive to how they've responded and people get really worked up. You're going to feel like you're
sense of control over the situation, your ability to speak up for yourself is slipping. Because this person is kind of using emotional warfare at that point, but you know, intentionally, unintentionally. Yeah. And like anger is a secondary emotion to an initial underlying emotion. So when someone gets angry,
If you're also angry with game over as far as where you can go from there, because if two people are angry, they're actually using anger to try and communicate the fact that they feel abandoned, that they feel rejected, that they feel insecure, that they feel attacked. But it's anger. So it's aggressive. And so you put your wall up and respond with aggression, you get nowhere. And that's where you go through this standoff and you don't talk for days. So when someone gets angry,
I always say like there's no talking to someone who's angry and if you have yet to slip into anger, just remove yourself out of the way. And I'd be like calm down because that would just stir someone even more. Just say, I'd rather talk about this. And to take ownership of it, even if you're not blowing up, I always advise you say something like, let's talk about this when we both
calmed down, you know, so you make it like we are heated. Let's just not just do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I'm headed in my head right now. And so I think, yeah, never respond to anger. It's just not worth it. And and pay and and as you would know, you know, you when people are fired up, it's harder to be logic to make a logical argument or a statement. You are emotional. You're
it's all reactive, you're not thinking proactively, you're not reasoning. So that's why it would benefit them to walk off and cool off for a bit and think about, okay, what am I actually feeling, you know? Especially if you're a sensitive person as well. Yeah. That's if you're someone else's emotions, if you're an empath, like, you're going to pick up on those. There's no controlling that one. Someone is like,
gotten to the point where they can't manage their emotions. You are going to pick up on that, you're going to absorb that. Big time, big time. And then, and it's paid hurts. So you're trying to protect yourself and it's just a disaster. So I say, yeah, definitely step away. Like you, like you said, you don't have to say anything in the moment. You don't have to try and be this really confident person if you haven't before. You don't have to. You can just remove, simmer down and then communicate in the way that feels best, you know. Great advice.
The last thing that I really want to focus on, because I get a lot of questions about this, and I know that it's not something that everyone is thinking about, but for those that are, when do you think it is time to go no contact with a family member?
I think, by default, you're just always going to give your family members lots of chances. You'll already have a track record in place of how many chances you've given this person. People will try to speak nicely. They'll try screaming.
Hey, if we start doing that, you've probably already tried so many different ways, you know, gifts, you tried doing it their way, you tried doing it your way, you've just tried everything normally, when you're ready to be like, I've got to walk away, you've, you've exhausted a lot of options. And I think that
when it's time to pull the plug on a relationship, you can always leave the door open in the sense of these have been all my problems with this relationship. And again, write it down if you do it in a letter, whatever you, again, if you, whatever it takes to get your point across, do that. Don't feel the pressure if it has to be in person. It doesn't. I've, when I wanted to have a talk with my ex when we just broke up and I'm like, can we please meet up? I wrote notes down and read it out to
Because you don't want to forget anything, but I'm like, I just don't want to forget. Yeah. Because I'm like, I know that if I just sat there. So if it takes that, do that, doesn't matter. But it's got to be something where you can say, these have been the issues. This is what I've requested for change. And this is what's not happened. I've tried doing it. This way I've tried doing it. That way it's just not happened. I'm not going to try and change you anymore. You can't change someone. You can't change their behavior.
So then that's when, if they don't, and you don't have to say, I'm leaving, I'm cutting you out of my life. You don't have to say it, but you say, but this has not been, you know, and you just, the ball's now in their court. They're not going to respond positively, obviously, because they haven't in the past, but at least you've put it there. And then you, that's it. You go no contact. I always say, because some people hate the finality of it, they hate that it's this final thing. So that's why people struggle to,
pull the plug on the relationship. But I always say, if you want a relationship, there's, I've given you exactly what I need. There's the formula. If you came back and just catered to these basic needs, I would genuinely be open to trying again. But as it stands, no.
I'm done. And you've shown time and time again that you can't change. So to make people feel more open to the idea, you're not saying I'm cutting you out forever. It's done. Could never again, no matter what. Because that's, like I said, people go through so many evolutions in their life. You know, I've seen people make crazy adjustments. I've seen a mum kick her son out because he was gay. And she's like, I can't accept it. I can't accept it to within two years.
Posting all his drag photos on her Facebook being like so proud. Oh my god. How beautiful the change that people can make Because she kicked him out and he went no contact and she's like I've literally lost my son Yeah, it's completely my decision. That was my fault. I was my fault. Yeah
So not to get your hopes up thinking, oh my God, this is what's going to cause the change. Absolutely have zero expectations because you've seen the track record. But just say, look, I'm done. I'm actually done with this relationship as it stands. I'm done forever. If you want to create a new one, I'd definitely be open to that. I love that. If you want to create a new one. I actually really, it's like you're not trying to repair the old relationship. It's done. It's finished. It's finished. I've had enough. Yeah. It's like you've reached the limit.
I'm walking away, but yeah, like I'm always, people innately want to connect, they want, you know, so you're likely to, if they were to come in five years time, two years time and say, I fucked up, I wanna give it a shot, I know exactly what it is that you need, you've explained it to me and I'm gonna try. You're gonna likely be like, yeah, I want to, you know, geez, I actually love, that was quite profound for me listening to that thing. Oh good, yeah, thank you.
Being like, wow, that's such a good point. I do think that people, I hate to say people are good, but I think it's easier for people to make the right decisions by you when you show them how you deserve to be traded. I know it feels like such a burden sometimes. It is really hard to be like, I wish I had family members where I didn't have to do this.
where I didn't have to give them like a guidebook. It's sad for a lot of people. On human empathy. Yeah. I know. That's so difficult, but it's also one of those things where you get to decide at this moment whether that burden is worth it or whether you don't want to take it on.
And that is only a decision that you can make. I really think that quite deeply, you really have to make that decision for yourself. And it is a pros and cons list that I'm sure is extensive and complex and nuanced, but it does take time. And I think that hopefully this episode has given you the right equipment to know how to do that and know how to get to that point where you do think that drastic measures need to be taken.
And it's very, it is empowering when you do finally come to a decision and make that decision. Because a lot of people that are in these really manipulative relationships have issues with their own relationship with themselves, especially if you were raised in that environment. So it's probably really hard to make a call like that and put yourself first when you've been around that environment for so long. And like I always say, if someone's been grown up in this beautiful, happy family, happy family, it's easy to look and say, oh,
Just like who gives a fuck? It's like, no, you've raised in that environment. So for you to even make that call or to make the change, it takes a lot. And I think it will actually be your first step into really building on your relationship with yourself. You know, you've got to like you teach people how to treat you.
I totally believe that. You have to teach people how to treat you. And if it means walking away and saying, I cannot do this anymore, that's a huge statement, but you have to follow through with it. Because then, you know, if you, you know, it's not to have cut you out forever, like we just spoke about, but it is saying, I cannot do this to myself anymore. Yeah. Actually, Christmas such holidays, great time to do it. Missing a big family holiday doesn't mean that you've cut yourself out of their life, but it does send a pretty clear message.
It's very clear message. Not permanent, but also very powerful. Very. I think that this is a... And it's not aggressive. It's not aggressive. It's just your absence. It's your absence and your absence speaks louder than words sometimes. No response is also a response.
Once again, we find ourselves in an unprecedented election. And with all that's happening in the lead up to the big day, a weekly podcast just won't cut it. Get a better grasp of where we stand as a nation every weekday on the NPR Politics Podcast. Here are season reporters dig into the issues that are shaping voters' decisions and understand how the latest updates play into the bigger picture. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey there, I'm Dr. Maya Schunker and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior. Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything. A moment that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, a slight change of plans, I talk to people about navigating these very moments.
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So I basically had what, back in the day, they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, let me show you me therapy, girl.
Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Vasket Case, I talked to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of f***ed up conditions that are pretty hard to live with.
But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you, and it will call you a basket case. Listen to basket case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey fam, I'm Simone Boyce. I'm Danielle Robey. And we're the hosts of The Bright Side, the daily podcast from Hello Sunshine that is guaranteed to light up your day. Every weekday we bring you conversations with the culture makers who inspire us. Like our recent episode with dancer, actor, host of Dancing With The Stars, and now novelist Julianne Huff.
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Thank you so much for coming on. I feel like that was such an important discussion to be having around this time. Obviously, I think I can speak from both of us, like sending a lot of love and strength and empathy to you guys and sympathy that you are having to go through this experience around this time. I know it can be hard seeing really happy families who seem to have no problems. Every family has their problems. I will say that from the bottom of my heart and you are doing not alone. Yeah, definitely not alone.
Where can they find you? If they do not know who you are already, firstly, ridiculous, but where can they find you? So the podcast is called Do You Fucking Mind? Or like, it's spout, do you F, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, I and J, mind.
And it's like an orange artwork with your kind and me. I'll put it in the description. Alexis, thank you so much for coming on. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave a five star review wherever you are listening right now. If you have an episode suggestion, something that you haven't spoken about that you would love to hear from us, please follow me at that psychology podcast and you can send us a DM over there. I hope you enjoyed this episode. As always, we will be back next week with another one. Have a great weekend.
Once again, we find ourselves in an unprecedented election. And with all that's happening in the lead up to the big day, a weekly podcast just won't cut it. Get a better grasp of where we stand as a nation every weekday on the NPR Politics Podcast. Here are season reporters dig into the issues that are shaping voters' decisions and understand how the latest updates play into the bigger picture. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey there, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior. Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything, that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I talk to people about navigating these moments. Their stories are full of candor and hard-won wisdom. And you'll hear from scientists who teach us how we can be more resilient in the face of change. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
From tips for healthy living to the latest medical breakthroughs, WebMD's Health Discovered Podcast keeps you up to date on today's most important health issues. Through in-depth conversations with experts from across the healthcare community, WebMD reveals how today's health news will impact your life tomorrow. It's not that people don't know that exercise is healthy, it's just that people don't know why it's healthy, and we're struggling to try to help people help themselves and each other.
Listen to WebMD Health Discovered on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you feel about biscuits? Hi, I'm Akula Hughes, and I'm so excited about my new podcast, Rebel Spirit, where I head back to my hometown in Kentucky and try to convince my high school to change their racist mascot, the rebels, into something everyone in the South loves. The biscuits. I was a lady rebel. Like, what does that even mean? It's right here in black and white and print. They lie. Bigger than a flag or mascot.
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