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    438. Aboutness, Secular vs. Religious Ethics, & Plato’s Aviary | Dr. Daniel Dennett

    Religion's historical role in civilizations as a moral standard enforcer is important, but its validity from a secular or scientific perspective is not necessary for its impact.

    enApril 08, 2024

    About this Episode

    Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with writer, philosopher, and cognitive scientist Dr. Daniel Dennett. They discuss the concepts of aboutness, intention, and the highest good as they relate to the religious and secular worlds, the establishment of trust and ethics outside of transcendent presupposition, and the loss of academic freedom at the misapprehension of postmodernism.

     

    Dr. Daniel Dennett is an American philosopher, writer, and cognitive scientist. He has published dozens of books, such as “Consciousness Explained" (1992), “Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life” (1996), and “Breaking the Spell: Religion as Natural Phenomena” (2007).

     

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    2024 tour details can be found here https://jordanbpeterson.com/events  

     

    Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com/  

     

     

    For Dr. Daniel Dennett:

     

    On X https://twitter.com/danieldennett?lang=en

     

    The Problem with Counterfeit People (Article on AI, the Atlantic) https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/05/problem-counterfeit-people/674075/

     

    Consciousness Explained (Book) https://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Explained-Daniel-C-Dennett/dp/0316180661

     

    I’ve Been Thinking (Book) https://www.amazon.com/Ive-Been-Thinking-Daniel-Dennett/dp/0393868052

     

    Breaking the Spell: Religion as Natural Phenomena (Book) https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Spell-Religion-Natural-Phenomenon/dp/0143038338 

    🔑 Key Takeaways

    • The concept of intention is central to both thought and religion, representing the highest aim or value in life, regardless of whether it's approached from a philosophical or religious perspective.
    • God and the good are linked, human morality outlines highest good, Gibson's affordances explain perception, ongoing research in neurosciences for tracking affordances in brain
    • Our emotions and motivations serve as driving forces for control and self-direction in the brain, acting as calibration systems that mark deviation from the pathway forward.
    • Ancient religious beliefs recognized the importance of a unifying force, whether it was voluntary attention or a relational deity, for human growth and understanding.
    • The concept of a calling or higher power is not an extra or unnecessary thing, but rather a pattern that emerges from our emotional and motivational experiences.
    • Recognizing our limitations and seeking knowledge through interaction with others are key aspects of effective thinking, akin to prayer in religious contexts.
    • Trust, essential for peaceful dialogue and societal harmony, is developed through socialization and must be cultivated and protected against technologies that erode it.
    • Trust and goodwill are crucial for progress and the exchange of ideas, whether in personal relationships or scientific pursuits. They enable an open mind, love, and truth to lead to new perspectives and revelations.
    • Science's assumptions of order and its ability to map it are crucial for its functioning. However, the misuse of scientific technology and knowledge can have negative consequences. Be mindful of potential consequences and use scientific progress for good.
    • The scientific enterprise relies on foundational elements like freedom, order, and the rule of law for progress, and is not separate from the moral enterprise.
    • The scientific enterprise requires a balance between foundational principles and vision to prevent chaos and malevolent forces, illustrated by Egyptian mythology of Osiris, Isis, Horus, and Seth. Ethical advances in the moral enterprise have been made through secular means, interconnected with the scientific enterprise for guidance and direction.
    • Religion's historical role in civilizations as a moral standard enforcer is important, but its validity from a secular or scientific perspective is not necessary for its impact.
    • Historically, religion maintained social order and acted as a tool for ruling classes. Today, academic freedom, a cornerstone of secular morality, is being curtailed, threatening the progress of ethical values in universities.
    • Postmodern beliefs, identity politics, and virtue signaling can harm truth and academic freedom. The dangers of AI and large language models include creating 'counterfeit people' that destroy trust and civilization. We must restore respect for truth and prevent harmful technology.
    • Retired individual emphasizes importance of raising awareness about counterfeit people, encouraging individuals to stay informed and continue the conversation.

    📝 Podcast Summary

    The role of intention in thought and religion

    The concept of intention plays a crucial role in both thought and religion. According to the philosophical perspective discussed, thoughts are directed at intentional objects, which can be things in the world or even fictional entities. The religious enterprise, on the other hand, represents the highest or most foundational aim in life, akin to the concept of the summum bonum, the highest good. While this definition is not necessarily religious in nature, it shares a hierarchy of values or intentions. The speaker acknowledges that there are religious interpretations of the summum bonum, but emphasizes that one does not have to be religious to hold such a belief in the importance of certain values. The discussion highlights the importance of clarifying definitions and agreeing on the territory of a discussion to ensure productive dialogue.

    Interconnectedness of God, Good, and Perception

    The concept of God and the concept of the good are interconnected, with God being seen as the central element that all good things share in common. Human beings have evolved systems of morality that outline the highest good, which is not readily definable but evolves over time. The concept of affordances, as proposed by J.J. Gibson, helps explain how we perceive the world and its tools and obstacles based on our established aims. Gibson's ideas are excellent, but he was weak on explaining how affordances are tracked in the brain, which is an area of ongoing research in the neurosciences. In summary, the discussion highlights the interconnectedness of the concepts of God, the good, and perception, and the ongoing evolution of our understanding of these concepts.

    Emotions and motivations as calibration systems

    Our perception of tools, obstacles, allies, and foes can evoke positive and negative emotions, which function as calibration systems that mark deviation from the pathway forward. Emotions and motivations, which are interconnected, serve as the driving forces for control and self-direction in the brain. This perspective on consciousness as a battleground between emotions and motivations aligns with the ideas of historians of religion like Eliot, who explore the concept of a "War of the Gods in Heaven" as a possible explanation for the emergence of dominant cultural forces. Ultimately, self-control is the arena of consciousness, and emotional valence is what pushes and pulls us towards our aims.

    The role of a unifying force in ancient religious beliefs

    The concept of a unifying force or deity emerges during cultural integration and cortical maturation, much like how voluntary attention is put at the apex in ancient Egyptian mythology. The religious enterprise can be seen as an analysis of what should occupy this unifying role. In the Old Testament, this highest force is conceptualized as a relational entity, such as a calling or manifestation of life's dynamism. This relationship may symbolize our willingness to depart from our current path and investigate deeper meaning. The Egyptians saw this unifying force as voluntary attention to error, emphasizing the importance of self-reflection and growth. Ultimately, both the Egyptian and Old Testament perspectives highlight the significance of a unifying force in the human experience, whether it be voluntary attention or a relational deity.

    The concept of a calling or higher power as a manifestation of our inner guidance

    The concept of a calling or a higher power that guides us can be seen as a manifestation of the unifying spirit or conscience within us. This concept, as described in the Old Testament, represents the commonality behind various callings that pull us forward and keep us on the right path. It's important to remember that this concept is not an extra or unnecessary thing, but rather a pattern that emerges from our emotional and motivational experiences. This perspective offers a more nuanced understanding of the relationship between the concept of God and our inner guidance, recognizing the dynamism between the two.

    Thinking as a Secularized Form of Prayer

    The relationship between humans and what is good or valuable is often conceptualized as a personal relationship, similar to prayer. This idea, which is central to many religious beliefs, can be understood by viewing thought as a secularized form of prayer. According to this perspective, thoughts function to guide us towards our goals and transform them, much like prayers do. The first step in thinking is acknowledging our lack of knowledge and admitting that there is an answer to be found. This process is facilitated through interaction with others, as the exchange of ideas can stimulate new thoughts and help bring forth knowledge that may have been previously hidden. Ultimately, the importance of this relationship lies in our shared pursuit of truth and the belief that, when we come together, we can stumble forward towards it more effectively.

    The foundation of trust in science and society

    Trust, built on goodwill and mutual understanding, is the foundation for both scientific inquiry and civilized society. Trust allows us to come together and engage in constructive dialogue, whether in science or other contexts. This trust is not a given, but something that is developed through socialization and the integration of emotional and motivational systems. The biblical concept of logos, or the pursuit of peaceful harmony and unity through goodwill, aligns with this idea. Trust is essential for dialogos, or the exchange of truthful information, and forms the basis of relationships and society. However, this trust is under attack in our modern world due to technologies that erode it, making it more important than ever to cultivate and protect it.

    The importance of trust and goodwill in personal growth and intellectual pursuits

    Trust and goodwill are essential components for personal growth and productive relationships, including intellectual pursuits like science. These qualities should be assumed and cultivated, as they enable progress and the exchange of ideas. The concept of a higher power or "God" can be seen as a metaphor for the internal quest for wisdom and understanding, and the idea that a revelation or new perspective may emerge when one approaches a situation with an open mind, love, and truth. The scientific enterprise, too, relies on these assumptions and the presence of trust and goodwill for progress.

    The assumptions of science and its potential misuse

    The scientific enterprise relies on certain assumptions, such as the existence of an intelligible order and the ability to map it, for its functioning. These assumptions are not religious in nature but rather essential preconditions for scientific inquiry. Science has a proven track record of revealing order reliably and productively, giving it a reputation as a reliable source of knowledge. However, there is a danger in the misuse of scientific technology and knowledge, as seen in the example of China's Skynet system. It's crucial to be aware of this potential misuse and to ensure that scientific progress is used for good rather than evil ends. Wiener's warning that every tool is a weapon highlights the importance of being mindful of the potential consequences of scientific advancements.

    The scientific enterprise is interconnected with societal structures and values

    The scientific enterprise is not an isolated endeavor, but is deeply interconnected with the larger societal structures and values, specifically the principles of freedom, order, and the rule of law. These foundational elements provide the necessary conditions for scientific progress. The scientific enterprise is not separate from the moral enterprise, but is in fact nested within it. The paper discussing the randomness of mutations serves as an example of how there is a core set of principles that provide a foundation for exploration and experimentation. The proper religious enterprise, as an example from Egyptian theology, can be seen as the inquiry into the foundational elements and the relationship between them and the necessary transformations. Gould's magisteria argument, which posits science and morality as separate domains, may have missed this important interconnectedness.

    Balance between tradition and vision in civilization and science

    The proper functioning of both civilization and the scientific enterprise requires a balance between tradition and vision. This balance ensures that foundational principles are not allowed to become rigid and blind, making way for chaotic and malevolent forces to take over. The Egyptian mythology of Osiris, Isis, Horus, and Seth illustrates this concept. The scientific enterprise, too, is predicated on a system of principles and must be nested within a broader secular moral enterprise for it to avoid going astray. The advances in ethics, a secular part of the moral enterprise, have been achieved through secular means, despite religious opposition. The scientific enterprise and the moral enterprise are interconnected, with the former relying on the latter for guidance and direction.

    Religion as a civilizing force

    Religion has played a crucial role in stabilizing civilizations throughout history, acting as a "nurse crop" for the scientific and secular ethical enterprises. This role was effective due to the idea that a higher power or deity is watching and judging actions, which encouraged adherence to moral standards. However, with the development of secular systems, religion's role as a nurse crop is no longer necessary, and in some cases, it has become more harmful than good. The validation of secular ethics comes from normative disciplines such as logic, game theory, probability theory, mathematics, and mathematics-based fields. These disciplines rely on rational inquiry and mutual understanding of what works, rather than religious doctrine. Religion's absence of evidence for its validity from a secular or scientific perspective does not diminish its historical importance as a civilizing force.

    Religion's Role in Maintaining Social Order and Academic Freedom

    Throughout history, religious beliefs have served various functions, including maintaining social order and acting as tools for ruling classes. The idea of a watchful deity, for instance, in the Old Testament, can be seen as a metaphor for societal consequences when things deviate from a moral path. However, in today's universities, the secular morality, which was once central to progress and maintenance, has gone astray. Academic freedom, a crucial component, is being curtailed, leading to significant issues within the academic community. It's essential to address these challenges and restore academic freedom to ensure the continued progress of secular morality.

    The Allure of Simple, Wrong Solutions to Complex Problems

    Simple, wrong solutions to complex problems can be alluring due to their ease and the sense of moral superiority they offer. These ideas, such as the postmodern belief that power rules everything, can be harmful and lead to the neglect of truth and academic freedom. Postmodernism has contributed to the rise of identity politics and virtue signaling, and it's essential to calmly restore respect for truth and academic freedom. Dr. Bennett also discussed the dangers of AI and large language models, which can create "counterfeit people" that are more dangerous than counterfeit money and can destroy trust and civilization. We should take action to prevent the creation and use of such technology.

    Discussing the dangers of counterfeit people

    The issue of counterfeit people is a significant concern for both the government and individuals, as discussed during a recent two-day meeting with senators and congressmen in Washington D.C. This retired individual, who has been dedicating most of his time to addressing this issue, emphasized the importance of raising awareness about the dangers of counterfeit people. He expressed gratitude to The Daily Wire for facilitating the conversation and encouraged viewers to continue the discussion on the Daily Wire Plus side. Overall, the conversation highlighted the importance of addressing this issue and the role that individuals can play in raising awareness and staying informed.

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