Logo
    Search

    Podcast Summary

    • The downfall of Sam Bankman-Fried: Excessive spending and poor decision-making in the cryptocurrency industryReckless spending and questionable decision-making can have severe consequences, even for highly successful individuals. Responsible leadership is crucial in avoiding such pitfalls.

      The trial of Sam Bankman-Fried, the former CEO of FTX, highlights the consequences of excessive spending and poor decision-making. Bankman-Fried's rise to success in the cryptocurrency exchange industry was accompanied by his lavish spending on real estate, political donations, and philanthropy. However, this extravagant lifestyle ultimately led to his downfall. As he faces serious fraud charges and a trial in New York, it becomes evident that his actions were fueled by hubris and a lack of regard for the legality and ethics of his choices. John Ray, the current emergency CEO at FTX, exposes Bankman-Fried's missteps and sheds light on the importance of responsible leadership. The takeaway here is that reckless spending and questionable decision-making can have severe consequences, even for highly successful individuals.

    • Business Opportunities in Economic Cycles and the Challenges They BringRay, a bankruptcy expert, emphasizes the importance of recognizing business opportunities in different economic cycles and the need to address issues such as fraud, over-leveraging, and undisclosed liabilities to prevent bankruptcy.

      Ray, a bankruptcy expert, emphasizes the constant presence of business opportunities in both good and bad economic cycles. He highlights the prevalence of stupidity and fraud during prosperous times and the additional challenges that arise during economic downturns, such as market impacts and over-leveraging. Ray's expertise lies in the legal and bankruptcy processes rather than specific industries, making him adaptable to various cases. Whether rescuing troubled companies or investigating financial mismanagement, his goal is to recover as much money as possible for stakeholders. Ray cites three common reasons for bankruptcy: overleveraging, which can be resolved by reducing debt; fraud, taking various forms of financial misconduct; and undisclosed liabilities, exemplified by a case involving tax liabilities in a crude oil transportation company.

    • The risks and factors that can drive companies into bankruptcyTo avoid bankruptcy, companies need to avoid overleverage, fraud, poor business practices, lack of adaptability, undisclosed liabilities, investing outside their core competency, failing to keep pace with economic changes, conflicts of interest, and being unprepared for trial or negotiations.

      Companies can be driven into bankruptcy due to a combination of overleverage, fraud, poor business practices, and lack of adaptability. The case study of FTX highlights how undisclosed liabilities, fraud, and stupidity can lead a once thriving shipping business to financial ruin. Additionally, businesses that invest outside their core competency or fail to keep pace with economic changes are also at risk. John Ray, a chief restructuring officer, emphasizes that conflicts of interest can hinder the effectiveness of large restructuring firms, making individuals like him more valuable in cases involving fraud and conflict scenarios. The Enron case exemplifies how banks were accused of assisting in covering up years of fraud, leading to billion-dollar litigation. The importance of being prepared for trial and being a tough negotiator is also highlighted in successful recovery efforts.

    • Taking Charge and Cleaning House: A CEO's Journey to Financial StabilityEffective leadership requires the acknowledgment of past mistakes and a proactive approach to solving financial problems for a successful turnaround.

      New CEOs often inherit the financial messes of their predecessors and must take proactive steps to clean up the company's balance sheet. This is evident in the case of Citigroup, where the new CEO had to write off massive charges related to past misconduct. Just like a new CEO holding out a prayer basket, they take responsibility for the mistakes made by their predecessors and work to improve the company's financial health. John Ray, known for his tenacity and aggressive problem-solving skills, exemplifies this approach by sinking his teeth into problems until they are resolved. This lesson reminds us that it takes determined leadership and a willingness to face challenges head-on to turn troubled circumstances around.

    • Embracing the Power of Genuine HelpJohn Ray's selflessness and belief in the potential of failure have shaped his career choices and outlook on life, inspiring him to embrace diverse responsibilities and make a positive impact at Waste Management.

      John Ray realized the importance of helping people genuinely, without expecting anything in return. Working in a constituent office, he witnessed that the majority of the people seeking assistance were unable to vote or offer any political or monetary benefits. This selfless act inspired him to catch the "fever" of helping others genuinely. Subsequently, when choosing a law firm to work for, he opted for the one that had faced challenges and potential failure instead of the comfortable options. This decision highlighted his belief that where there is failure, there is an opportunity for positive change and growth. John Ray's understanding of failure breeding opportunity continued to shape his career choices and outlook on life. This valuable lesson influenced his subsequent employment at Waste Management, where he embraced a diverse range of responsibilities within the company.

    • The FTX Group's Collapse and the Importance of Corporate ControlsThe FTX Group's bankruptcy filing exposed the critical need for trustworthy financial information and robust systems and controls to prevent catastrophic outcomes.

      The FTX Group's collapse highlights the critical importance of corporate controls and trustworthy financial information. With John Ray taking over as emergency CEO, he witnessed a complete failure of these controls and a lack of reliable financial information, which ultimately led to FTX's bankruptcy filing. Ray, with over 40 years of legal and restructuring experience, emphasized that such a situation is unprecedented. The incident also exposed the consequences of entrusting a small group of inexperienced individuals with the management of a company handling other people's money and assets. The testimony given by Ray in front of Congress underscored the need for robust systems and controls to prevent such catastrophic outcomes.

    • Approaching Bankruptcy with a Clean Heart and an Open MindDespite the complexity of the cryptocurrency industry, it should not be generalized as inherently corrupt. Ray's team faces the challenging task of reconstructing financial records to uncover the truth.

      The bankruptcy process provides a unique opportunity for Ray to approach the situation with a clean heart and an open mind, untainted by any wrongdoing. Ray emphasizes that the complexity of the cryptocurrency industry should not be used as a blanket condemnation for all cryptocurrencies. He compares the current situation to notorious financial scandals like Enron and Bernie Madoff, highlighting the lack of proper recordkeeping and the absence of income statements and balance sheets in this case. As the investigation unfolds, Ray and his team face the daunting task of piecing together scattered clues and trails to recreate what happened and track the flow of millions of dollars. It's a forensic act that requires the creation or re-creation of financial books at a primary level.

    • Asset tracing, transparency, and stakeholder cooperation in failed firms and bankruptcies.Increase transparency, cooperation, and value in failed firms and bankruptcies to minimize conflicts among stakeholders and maximize recovery for all parties involved.

      When dealing with failed firms and bankruptcies, it is crucial to trace the movements of assets and provide explanations to creditors and customers. Unlike bankruptcies involving commercial parties, customers often lack understanding of what happened and need a clear backstory to make sense of the situation. Therefore, it is important to increase value and provide transparency in order to minimize conflicts and dissatisfaction among stakeholders. Ultimately, the allocation of resources is usually determined through a consensual plan, which may require negotiations and compromises. While it is difficult to predict the exact amount of dollars that will be recovered, efforts should be made to maximize recovery for all parties involved. Looking ahead, there is a potential for FTX to restart and meet the competition within the sector.

    • Maximizing value for creditors in financial crises: Understanding their stories, empathizing, and developing a comprehensive plan.Empathy and thorough investigation are crucial in resolving financial crises, allowing for comprehensive plans that maximize value for creditors and provide support for recovery.

      The market ultimately determines the outcome of a financial crisis or bankruptcy situation. The main goal in such cases is to maximize value for creditors, regardless of a predetermined plan. Understanding the personal stories and circumstances of the creditors is crucial in finding effective solutions. It is important to empathize and put oneself in their shoes to fully comprehend the extent of the problem. John Ray, a bankruptcy expert, emphasizes the significance of this perspective. While the process may seem slow and bureaucratic, it is necessary to ensure a thorough investigation, collection, and sorting of liabilities, as well as the development of a comprehensive plan. It is also important to acknowledge the high costs involved in fixing a crime and provide support for recovery. Additionally, by focusing on one bankruptcy case at a time, professionals like Ray can dedicate their full attention and expertise to delivering the best possible outcomes.

    • The Unique Role of Independent Emergency CEOs in Turnaround ManagementIndependent emergency CEOs provide specialized expertise, flexibility, and agility to quickly turn around struggling companies, making bold decisions and eliminating inefficiencies that regular CEOs envy.

      There is a significant market for emergency CEOs who specialize in managing bankruptcies and turning around struggling companies. However, this market is dominated by big firms that follow a leverage model, where they bill clients at a high rate but pay their employees a fraction of that amount. On the other hand, individuals like John Ray, who work independently and don't employ a large team, can provide specialized expertise and hire best-in-class consultants for each case. These independent emergency CEOs have the flexibility and agility to make quick decisions and take bold actions to save a company. Regular CEOs often envy their ability to swiftly make changes and eliminate inefficiencies. This unique role offers the opportunity to accomplish in a short time what would take years under normal circumstances.

    • The Chaos of Condo Board Business and the Fast-Paced World of John Ray as an Emergency CEOJohn Ray's priority is to maximize asset value and distribute it to creditors, leaving little concern for external factors such as chronicling chaos or questioning motives.

      The condo board business, as experienced by John Ray in his role as an emergency CEO, operates based on the lowest-common-denominator principle, where the least objectionable ideas are favored. Due to the fast-paced nature of his work, Ray is accustomed to quick problem-solving and decision-making, unlike the lengthy meetings traditional CEOs have with independent directors. Despite writer Michael Lewis chronicling the chaos surrounding FTX, Ray is too occupied to assist with Lewis' book. As Ray focuses on collecting assets and minimizing liabilities, he acknowledges that Lewis may have insights from witnessing the generation of bills at local restaurants but remains unsure of Lewis' motives. Ultimately, Ray's main focus is maximizing asset value and distributing it to creditors, leaving little concern for Sam Bankman-Fried, the former tycoon of FTX.

    • The Role of Communication in Relationship Management and Conflict AvoidanceAvoiding unnecessary conflicts can be achieved by choosing not to engage in conversations that may lead to misunderstandings or disagreements, prioritizing authenticity over fame, and embracing continuous growth through exploration of new industries.

      Communication, or lack thereof, plays a crucial role in managing relationships and avoiding unnecessary conflicts. Ray Dalio, in his decision to not engage in a conversation with Sam Bankman-Fried, highlights the importance of avoiding conversations that could potentially lead to misunderstandings or disagreements. By not having the conversation, Dalio ensures that there can be no argument about what was said or who said what. This approach allows him to maintain clarity and avoid unnecessary complications. Additionally, Dalio emphasizes the importance of being authentic and true to oneself, rather than seeking fame or heroism. Lastly, his preference for exploring new industries and learning different things showcases his short attention span and desire for continuous growth.

    • The role of professionals in managing bankruptcies and finding long-term solutions for financially troubled cities.Seeking expert help and finding compromise among stakeholders is essential for financially troubled cities to navigate bankruptcies and avoid a catastrophic crash.

      Cities facing financial trouble can benefit from seeking the expertise of professionals like John Ray who specialize in managing and navigating bankruptcies. Just like corporations, cities can become highly leveraged, with too many employees and a flawed business plan relying heavily on debt. However, declaring bankruptcy is not a guaranteed solution, as making all creditors whole is rare. The key lies in finding compromise and consensus among stakeholders, with the help of professionals who can bring people together and work towards a long-term solution. John Ray, with his knowledge and experience, is confident in his ability to assist cities like Chicago and address issues such as a bloated payroll and legacy costs. Yet, it is essential for city officials to be open to seeking help and engaging with experts to find the best alternative rather than facing a catastrophic crash.

    Recent Episodes from Freakonomics Radio

    598. Is Overconsolidation a Threat to Democracy?

    598. Is Overconsolidation a Threat to Democracy?

    That’s the worry. Even the humble eyeglass industry is dominated by a single firm. 

    We look into the global spike in myopia, how the Lemtosh got its name, and what your eye doctor knows that you don’t. (Part two of a two-part series.)

     

    • SOURCES:
      • Maria Liu, professor of clinical optometry at the University of California, Berkeley.
      • Harvey Moscot, C.E.O. of MOSCOT Eyewear and Eyecare.
      • Zachary Moscot, chief design officer of MOSCOT Eyewear and Eyecare.
      • Cédric Rossi, equity research analyst at Bryan Garnier.
      • Tim Wu, professor of law, science and technology at Columbia Law School.

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJuly 25, 2024

    597. Why Do Your Eyeglasses Cost $1,000?

    597. Why Do Your Eyeglasses Cost $1,000?

    A single company, EssilorLuxottica, owns so much of the eyewear industry that it’s hard to escape their gravitational pull — or their “obscene” markups. Should regulators do something? Can Warby Parker steal market share? And how did Ray-Bans become a luxury brand? (Part one of a two-part series.)

     

    • SOURCES:
      • Neil Blumenthal, co-founder and co-CEO of Warby Parker.
      • Dave Gilboa, co-founder and co-CEO of Warby Parker.
      • Jessica Glasscock, fashion historian and lecturer at the Parsons School of Design.
      • Neil Handley, curator of the British Optical Association Museum at the College of Optometrists.
      • Ryan McDevitt, professor of economics at Duke University.
      • Cédric Rossi, equity research analyst at Bryan Garnier.
      • Tim Wu, professor of law, science and technology at Columbia Law School.

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJuly 18, 2024

    EXTRA: People Aren’t Dumb. The World Is Hard. (Update)

    EXTRA: People Aren’t Dumb. The World Is Hard. (Update)

    You wouldn’t think you could win a Nobel Prize for showing that humans tend to make irrational decisions. But that’s what Richard Thaler has done. In an interview from 2018, the founder of behavioral economics describes his unlikely route to success; his reputation for being lazy; and his efforts to fix the world — one nudge at a time.

     

    • SOURCES:
      • Richard Thaler, professor of behavioral science and economics at the University of Chicago.

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJuly 15, 2024

    596. Farewell to a Generational Talent

    596. Farewell to a Generational Talent

    Daniel Kahneman left his mark on academia (and the real world) in countless ways. A group of his friends and colleagues recently gathered in Chicago to reflect on this legacy — and we were there, with microphones.

     

    • SOURCES:
      • Maya Bar-Hillel, professor emeritus of psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
      • Shane Frederick, professor of marketing at the Yale School of Management.
      • Thomas Gilovich, professor of psychology at Cornell University.
      • Matt Killingsworth, senior fellow at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania.
      • Barbara Mellers, professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.
      • Eldar Shafir, director of the Kahneman-Treisman Center for Behavioral Science & Public Policy at Princeton University.
      • Richard Thaler, professor of behavioral science and economics at the University of Chicago.

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJuly 11, 2024

    595. Why Don't We Have Better Candidates for President?

    595. Why Don't We Have Better Candidates for President?

    American politics is trapped in a duopoly, with two all-powerful parties colluding to stifle competition. We revisit a 2018 episode to explain how the political industry works, and talk to a reformer (and former presidential candidate) who is pushing for change.

     

    • SOURCES:

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJuly 04, 2024

    594. Your Brand’s Spokesperson Just Got Arrested — Now What?

    594. Your Brand’s Spokesperson Just Got Arrested — Now What?

    It’s hard to know whether the benefits of hiring a celebrity are worth the risk. We dig into one gruesome story of an endorsement gone wrong, and find a surprising result.

     

    • SOURCES:
      • John Cawley, professor of economics at Cornell University.
      • Elizabeth (Zab) Johnson, executive director and senior fellow with the Wharton Neuroscience Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania.
      • Alvin Roth, professor of economics at Stanford University.

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJune 27, 2024

    593. You Can Make a Killing, but Not a Living

    593. You Can Make a Killing, but Not a Living

    Broadway operates on a winner-take-most business model. A runaway hit like Stereophonic — which just won five Tony Awards — will create a few big winners. But even the stars of the show will have to go elsewhere to make real money. (Part two of a two-part series.)

     

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJune 20, 2024

    EXTRA: The Fascinatingly Mundane Secrets of the World’s Most Exclusive Nightclub

    EXTRA: The Fascinatingly Mundane Secrets of the World’s Most Exclusive Nightclub

    The Berlin dance mecca Berghain is known for its eight-hour line and inscrutable door policy. PJ Vogt, host of the podcast Search Engine, joins us to crack the code. It has to do with Cold War rivalries, German tax law, and one very talented bouncer.

     

    • SOURCES:
      • Lutz Leichsenring, executive board member of Clubcommission Berlin and co-founder of VibeLab.
      • PJ Vogt, reporter, writer, and host of the podcast Search Engine.

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJune 17, 2024

    592. How to Make the Coolest Show on Broadway

    592. How to Make the Coolest Show on Broadway

    Hit by Covid, runaway costs, and a zillion streams of competition, serious theater is in serious trouble. A new hit play called Stereophonic — the most Tony-nominated play in history — has something to say about that. We speak with the people who make it happen every night. (Part one of a two-part series.)

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJune 13, 2024

    591. Signs of Progress, One Year at a Time

    591. Signs of Progress, One Year at a Time

    Every December, a British man named Tom Whitwell publishes a list of 52 things he’s learned that year. These fascinating facts reveal the spectrum of human behavior, from fraud and hypocrisy to Whitwell’s steadfast belief in progress. Should we also believe?

     

     

    Freakonomics Radio
    en-usJune 06, 2024

    Related Episodes

    4 Leadership Struggles I Had to Overcome

    4 Leadership Struggles I Had to Overcome

    Lonely Leadership

    What are leadership struggles? Many leaders act as if the point they’ve reached in their careers was easy to reach. From my perspective, as I progressed throughout my career, I ran into many different struggles. These struggles are some that I believe every leader will encounter. Rather than hiding these struggles from you, I will be putting them out in the sunlight for all of you to see. I have come to realize that all leaders are alike. As much as we think we are different, we are not as unique as we think. We all share the same struggles. On today’s show, I will be discussing the various struggles all leaders face and how to counteract them.

    The first leadership struggle I’ve encountered is lonely leadership. As you progress through an organization it gets harder to find people that understand you. Great leaders are told that transparency is a must. Be transparent. Share things with others around you. While transparency holds importance, is it always the answer? Transparency is only important to a point. There are some things you should not be transparent about.

    You should never be transparent about your self-doubt. Being open about your struggles with employees can cause them concern about your organization. Secondly, never be transparent about your opinion of others. Especially key stakeholders. They will find out. My philosophy is to never burn a bridge no matter what. This decision has come back to benefit me throughout my career.

    Thirdly, never be transparent about confidential information shared with you. I’ve seen may promising leaders sidelined because of issues of integrity and trust. Building a reputation of integrity as a leader is crucial. It can be lost in just one decision. Don’t make that mistake. This will shatter your career. Being a leader is lonely. Who can you share things with? Your spouse? Not always. I remember when I was at Teligent and we were the hottest new thing. We were on the cover of Business Week, Forbes, WSJ, NY Times etc. My wife was at her hairdresser one day, and the hairdresser was drilling her about information on Teligent. He assumed she had access to confidential information and was getting aggressive. After that, me and my wife came to an agreement to protect her. I do not share any confidential information with her. Never. She doesn’t want to be in that position.

    Is there anyone you can be transparent with? Your coach or mentor. Let your board/shareholders know that you have a coach or mentor. If you’re going to share confidential information with someone, they should sign a non-disclosure agreement. All of this said, you will be lonely as a leader. It comes with the position. Do you have someone that you can be transparent with?

     

     

    What Got You Here Won’t Keep You Here

    Will the skills that helped you reach your position keep you there? These things will not keep you here or progress you in your career. Look at me for instance. My specialty is technical work. I have not touched technical work in 15 years. I had to learn new skills in order to advance. How did I learn those different skills? Right out of college, I was told by my mentor Bob that in order to find success, I had to broaden my playing fields. I knew my specialty very well, but I needed to have a variety of experiences. What did I do? I rotated in marketing, sales, finance, IT, etc. I did everything. While these experiences broadened my knowledge, it wasn’t enough. What were the skillsets that brought me to success?

    • Organization design - How do you structure a team? You have to be willing to adjust in order to create a successful organizational structure.
    • People Reading - Each person is unique and you have to commit to learning them.
    • Consensus BuildingLearn the individuals and their objectives. I do one on one calls with each member of my board before meetings. This helps me to get a better grasp on the thoughts and feelings of each member.
    • Objective Setting – How do you set good objectives? use OKR’s/make sure they are clear and measurable. Grant autonomy letting your experts use their skills to achieve ultimate success.

     

    Consequences of Ideas and Statements

    Ideas and statements made as a leader have consequences. Things will get taken out of context and all the sudden they become the “new law”. When I was CEO at Cable Labs, I told my team that the most common statement they would hear was “Phil said”. In many cases what I said was misinterpreted or misused. The best proof point of this in my career is press coverage. If you google my name and read the articles on the first 16 pages of google, not a single article got the situation 100% correct. At Cable Labs, we had issues with the press pushing out false information. This caused employees to start worrying about the longevity of our Colorado office. I had to call a meeting with my all my employees to address this issue. I made a commitment to my staff that day that they would hear from me first, and not the press. In fact, this created a new culture at Cable Labs called the “no surprise rule” to constantly remind my employees of this. Why do I do this? Because ideas and statements can be a disaster. You need to be hyper-vigilant about what you say, how you say it, and how you operate. Are you conveying statements the right way?

     

    Creative Self-Doubt

    What is the number one skill leaders are expected to have? Creativity/ ingenuity leading to product, service, and operational innovation. Many leaders get promoted to a leadership role because of innovation they are credited with. Look at Nobel Laureates. There is a trend of peaks seen from the recipients of Nobel awards. One in their mid-twenties and one in their mid-fifties. The question comes down to this. Do you still have your creativity?

     

    What type of innovator are you?

    Conceptual Innovators - “Think outside the box,” challenging conventional wisdom and suddenly coming up with new ideas. Conceptual innovators tend to peak early in their careers.

     

    Experimental Innovators - Accumulate knowledge through their careers and find groundbreaking ways to analyze, interpret and synthesize that information into new ways of understanding. The long periods of trial and error required for important experimental innovations make them tend to occur late in a Nobel laureate’s career. Success comes from recognizing that as an innovator we need to shift from the conceptual to the experimental.

    Let’s connect; I am on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter. If we do connect, drop me a note and let me know. The email address is feedback@philmckinney.com or you can go to PhilMcKinney.com and drop me a note there. If you are looking for innovation support go to TheInnovators.Network or want to be challenged to develop the next big idea, check out our Disruptive Ideation Workshops. Don’t forget to join our Innovators Community to enjoy more conversations around innovation.

    Toni Townes-Whitley (Microsoft) - The Ethics of Innovation

    Toni Townes-Whitley (Microsoft) - The Ethics of Innovation
    How often do entrepreneurs and corporate leaders think about issues like fairness, accessibility or unseen biases in the technologies they invent and advance? That’s the challenge for companies leading the digital transformation that’s disrupting every aspect of society, says Toni Townes-Whitley, Corporate Vice President of Worldwide Public Sector and Industry at Microsoft, in this talk about innovating strategically and responsibly.

    Transparent Leadership: Peter Shankman

    Transparent Leadership: Peter Shankman

    Peter Shankman, a pioneer in modern PR, marketing, advertising, social media, and customer service, profiles the famously nice executives, entrepreneurs, and companies that are setting the standard for success in this new collaborative world.

    He explores the new hallmarks of effective leadership, including loyalty, optimism, humility, and a reverence for customer service, and shows how leaders like Jet Blue's Dave Needleman, Tony Hsieh of Zappos, Steve Jobs of Apple, Ken Chenault of Amex, Indra Nooyi of Pepsi, and the team behind Patagonia harness these traits to build productive, open, and happy workplaces for the benefit of their employees, themselves, and the bottom line.

    How to save the world, in three easy steps.

    How to save the world, in three easy steps.

    Dr. Robert Malone is the inventor of mRNA Vaccine technology. 
    Mr. Steve Kirsch is a serial entrepreneur who has been researching adverse reactions to COVID vaccines. 
    Dr. Bret Weinstein is an evolutionary biologist. 
    Bret talks to Robert and Steve about the pandemic, treatment and the COVID vaccines. 

    Steve's paper on COVID vaccine reactions: https://trialsitenews.com/should-you-get-vaccinated/ 

    Steve's Twitter: @stkirsch 
    COVID-19 Early Treatment Fund: https://www.treatearly.org/team/steve-kirsch 
    Dr. Malone's website: https://www.rwmalonemd.com/mrna-vaccine-inventor 
    Robert's LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rwmalonemd 
    Robert's Twitter: @RWMaloneMD 

    --- 

    Find Bret Weinstein on Twitter: @BretWeinstein, and on Patreon. 

    Please subscribe to this channel for more long form content like this, and subscribe to the clips channel @DarkHorse Podcast Clips for short clips of all our podcasts. 

    Theme Music: Thank you to Martin Molin of Wintergatan for providing us the rights to use their excellent music. 

    Support the show