You were bloated last night. What else is new? I said not bloated. My god. You really are though. You look bloated. Listen, that's coming from you. You started to look like Bert, and now you're back to Ernie. Your face is getting round again. All I have to say is, hold on a second, guys. I got to get a drink. Is it okay? You guys got a minute for me to drink? Yeah, yeah. I definitely do. I definitely do. Go ahead. Hold on a second.
No, no, um, I'm actually, you know, I've been working on my weight. So I'm just going to pick here. I think I have the mocha latte from Supergotten. I also have the chocolate shake. Do you have a recommendation here for me, Friedberg? Cause I'm going to put it in my coffees mocha on a mocha. You can't go wrong. You can't go wrong. Thank you. Double mocha is a win. Just on a completely unrelated topic. Did you happen to invest in Supergut? Jake? No, no, no, I haven't invested yet, but use the promo code.
It's been a big part of my weight loss journey. It's also been a big part of me and Freberg becoming besties and creating a unified block for all in Summit 2023. So I've got two solid votes. I'll be very honest with you guys. Give me a credible plan.
where we can maintain the integrity. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking. I was joking.
where we can each make four million bucks each net, then I'll do it. Four million net. Okay. Great. Look at J. Cal writing that down as if he respects a contract. Okay. Got this. Got this. I signed the fucking car. I signed the contract for J. Cal. The negotiation begins at the point where there's a signed contract. Exactly. It's like, okay, now negotiate with you.
All right, everybody, the show has started. The four of us are still here by some miracle. We're still going after 107 episodes and it's better than ever. Last week we were at number 12, so Main Street Media. We'll see you in the top 10.
Here we go. Twitter files, part one. We're not on strike. We're not on strike. Despite your oppressive conditions, Jacob, we're not on strike. What impressive conditions are making you show up on time? Yeah. If I was getting paid five bucks for this, I'd be on strike right now.
Guys, not only are you getting five bucks, you're getting a bill for the production. Okay, here we go. How beautiful is it that the same reporters who couldn't stop writing about the oppressive working conditions that Elon Musk was supposedly creating? Because he simply wanted the employees to go back to the office and work hard. And if they didn't, he'd give them a generous three months severance package. Those same reporters are now on strike because the solesburgers are running a clickbait farm over there with oppressive working conditions.
The intellectual dishonesty has never been higher in the world. I would like to ask, will the publisher of the New York Times agree that anybody who isn't happy there can have a voluntary three month severance package? Yeah, I click this link and do you want to work hard or do you want three month severance? If the New York Times publisher did that, you know what would happen? 800 of 1200 people would take the severance.
Of course. All right, here we go. Twitter files have dropped. Part one dropped with the legendary award-winning, highly respected journalist, Matt Teiby. If you don't know who he is, he is a left-leaning journalist who worked at Rolling Stone and did the best coverage hands down of the financial crisis and the shenanigans and he held truth to power to that group. This is important to note.
The second drop was given to Barry Weiss, who is a right leaning independent journalist. These are both independent journalists. She previously worked at the New York Times itself. Now, I think we should work backwards.
from two to one. Do you agree? Yes, for sure. Let's start with the drop that has happened last night. Yes. So last night a drop happened. So here's what happens in Twitter files part two. I'm going to give a basic summary and then I'm going to give it to Saks because he's chomping at the bit. We now have confirmation that what the right thought was happening all along, which is a secret silencing system built into the software.
of blacklists was tagging right-wing conservative voices in the system.
And these included people like Dan Bungino. Is that your pronounce it? Yes. He was tagged with being on a search blacklist. What that means is you're a fan of Dan's who is a former Secret Service agent who is now a right wing conservative, let's just say conservative instead of wing, a conservative radio host, podcast host. He was not allowed to be found in search engines for some reason.
Charlie Kirk, who is a conservative commentator, he was tagged with, do not amplify. I guess that means you can't trend into people's feeds, even if they follow you. And then there were people who were banned from the trend's blacklist, including a Stanford professor, Jay Bhattacharya. Did I get it right? Yes, Jay Bhattacharya. Okay, I got it right. Dr. Stanford School of Medicine.
And he was not allowed on the trend's blacklist because he had a dissenting opinion. A Stanford professor had a dissenting opinion on COVID that's turned out to be true.
And this is where the danger comes in because all of these actions were taken without any transparency. And they were taken on one side of the aisle by people inside of Twitter, essentially covertly, no ownership of who did it. And they never told the people. They gaslit them. They could see their own tweets.
They could use the service, but they couldn't be seen even by their own fans in many cases here. Saks, when you look at that, let's just start with that first piece. The shadow banning, as it's called in our industry, where you can participate in a community, but you can't be seen. Is there any circumstance under which this tool would make sense for you to deploy and then what your general take on what has been discovered last night?
Okay. Look, two more questions. Yes. You may start with what's been discovered here. Let me boil it down for you. This is an FTX level fraud, except that what was stolen here was not customer funds. It was their free speech rights, not just the rights of people like J Balancharya and Dan Bongino to speak, but the right of the public to hear them in the way that they expected. Okay. And you had statement after statement by Twitter executives, like Jack Dorsey, like
Vijaya, Gotti, YOL, and other saying, we do not shadow ban. And then they also said, we certainly, this is their emphasis, do not shadow ban on the basis of political viewpoint. And what the Twitter files show is that is exactly what they were doing. They, in the same way that SPF was using
FTX and customer funds is his personal piggy bank. They were using Twitter as their personal ideological piggy bank. They were going in to the tools and using the content moderation system, these big brother like tools that were designed to basically put their thumb on the scale of American democracy and suppress viewpoints that they did not agree with. And they did not like even when, even when they could not
justify removing content based on their own rules. So there are conversations in the slack that Barry Weiss exposed where, for example, Libs of TikTok, they admit in the slack that we can't suppress Libs of TikTok based on our hate policy. Libs of TikTok hasn't violated it. We're going to suppress that account anyway. Now it's important to note what Libs of TikTok does. This is a great talking point.
lives of tiktok finds people who are trans people who are you know maybe not lgbtq and they feature their tiktoks
and they mock them on Twitter. Now, this certainly is free speech. And the argument from the safety team was by putting all of these together, you're inciting violence towards those people. And they said they haven't broken a rule, but collectively, they could be, in some way, targeting those people. Is there anything fair, freeberg, to that statement?
that they targeted them? By collecting their, let's say, views that are, I'm asking this question for discussion purposes, I'm not giving my opinion. Jake help. Hold on, I want Freeburg to answer one. Why can't I finish? I'm gonna go back to you, spoke for two minutes, that's why. Freeburg, you turned out moderating today, Saks. You could have the opportunity to speak as long as they want and I get interrupted. You got two minutes. Let me just finish the SPF analogy, okay? And then you can finish. Then you can both sides this issue. Don't worry, Saks, while you're speaking
This is one or two words on you and then, yeah, go ahead. Why did people like Audie and Joelle deny that they were engaged in shadow banning, even though that's clearly what they were doing? Because they knew that they had an obligation to be stewards of the public trust. They were custodians of public trust. They knew they were violating that trust. The same way that SPF had a duty to be custodians of his customer's funds.
They did not implement their own policy that they said they were implementing. Why? Because they were suppressing accounts that personally offended them, that personally they disagreed with, and they wanted to deprive the public of the right to hear. Now, the way that they're justifying this, hold on, the way that the media is today justifying it is they're pointing to obscure provisions in the terms of use around spam accounts, things like that saying, oh, well, the terms of use show that they had the right to do this. This is like the margin account, okay?
They do not have the right to use these tools in this way. Okay. Jay Baudicharya was not posting spam. Just a professor. I stand for a professor. It doesn't. Yes. Your radio post. You disagree with this. You are proven correct completely. He was opposed to lockdowns. That was the great Barrington Declaration. And they suppressed it. What is the justification?
So now you have to answer my question then, Saks, since you want to talk so much. Hold on. Saks, I want you to answer the question then since you are so interested in talking. Hold on. Hold on. I want him to answer one question. Then it's going to you, free bird. Saks, should lives of TikTok be able to collect trans people living their life, making TikToks, put them into a group feed, mock them, and
If those people experience harassment because of it, is that something that Twitter should allow? I'm asking you this without giving my opinion. I'm curious your opinion specifically for the lives of TikTok since you opened that door and you wanted to bring up that very thorny issue. Go.
Listen, so I'm listening to TikTok. My understanding of that account is that they only take videos that have already been made public by another account. They're all public. They're all in the public domain and then they repost them. Sometimes they make a snarky comment, but usually they just let them stand on their own.
That is not a violation of free speech. Now, the way that I think these Twitter executives have interpreted it is that they live in such a bubble and they live in with such privilege and entitlement that they think that when their point of view gets criticized or challenged that that in and of itself is harassment. That's not that is public debate and they want to make themselves and their points of view immune to public debate and the way that they do that is that they claim that any criticism is harassment.
If in aggregate final final follow-up if an aggregate those people report being harassed and they have evidence of being harassed, what should Twitter do? Listen, if somebody is harassed, I'm fine with taking that down, but being publicly criticized or simply retweeted is not harassment. Okay, harassment needs to be targeted and it needs to be more than just public criticism or even a snarky comment here or there.
And so you don't consider a daily feed of trans people being mocked. You don't consider that target harassment. Got it. Don't listen to me about it. Listen to Twitter's own Slack files about it. They knew that the account that lives of TikTok was not violating the rules, yet they suppressed it. They suspended it six times. They knew they were on shaky ground. They wanted to do it anyway. Why? Because people were experiencing harassment. That's why they did it.
But it is a thorny freedom of speech. I agree with you. I think I think sex has.
articulated a vision for the product he wanted Twitter to be, but I don't think that's necessarily the product that they wanted to create. It's not that Twitter set out at the time or stated clearly that they were going to be the harbinger of truth and the free speech platform for all. I think they were really clear and they have been in their behavior and as demonstrated through this stuff that came out, which to me feels a lot like a
We already knew all this stuff. This is a bit of a nothing burger that they were curating and they were editing and they were editorializing other people's content and the ranking of content in the same way that many other internet platforms do to create what they believe to be their best user experience for the users that they want to appeal to.
And I'll say like there's been this long debate and it goes back 20 years at this point on how Google does ranking, right? I mean, you guys may remember Jeremy Stoppelman went to DC and he complained about how Google was using his content and he wasn't being ranked high enough as Google's own content that was being shoved in the wrong place. And there's a guy who ran kind of, he was the spokesperson for the SEO, the search engine optimization rules.
at Google and it was always the secret at Google, how did the search results get ranked? And I can tell you, it's not just a pure algorithm that there was a lot of manual intervention, a lot of manual work. In fact, the manual work gets to be to the point that they said, there's so much stuff that we know is the best content and the best form of content for the user experience that they ranked it all the way at the top and they called it the one box. It's the stuff that sits above the primary search results.
And that editorialization ultimately led to a product that they intended to make because they believed it was a better user experience for the users that they wanted to service. And I don't think that this is any different than what's happened at Twitter. Twitter is not a government agency. They're not a free speech. They're not the internet. They're a product.
And the product managers and the people that run that product team ultimately made some editorial decisions that said, this is the content we do want to show and this is the content we don't want to show. And they certainly did wrap up a bunch of rules that had a lot of leeway for what they could or couldn't do, or they gave themselves a lot of different excuses on how to do it.
I don't agree with it. It's not the product I want. It's not the product I think should exist. I think Elon also saw that and clearly he stepped in and said, I want to make a product that is a different product than what is being created today. So none of this feels to me like these guys were the guardians of the internet and they came along and they were distrustful. They did exactly what they, what a lot of other companies have done and exactly what they set out to do. And they editorialized a product for a certain user group. And by the way, they never block, they never edited people's tweets.
They changed how people's results were showing up in rankings. They showed how viral they would get in the trend box. Those were in-app features and in-app services. This was not about taking someone's tweet and changing it. And people may feel ashamed and they may feel
you know, upset about the fact that they were de-ranked or they were kind of quote shadow band. But ultimately, that's the product they chose to make. And people have the choice and the option of going elsewhere. And I don't agree with it. And it's not the product I want. And it's not a product I want to use. And I certainly don't feel happy seeing it. So you want to see products in free work to summarize it. You want to see the free market do its job. Chamath.
You worked at Facebook. Facebook seems to have done, I would say, an excellent job with content moderation. I think in large part, correct me if I'm wrong, because of the real name's policy. But tell us what you think when you look at this and the 15-year history of social media and moderation.
I think moderation is incredibly difficult and typically what happens is early on in a company's lifecycle and I'm going to guess that Twitter and YouTube were very similar to what we did at Facebook and it's very similar to probably what TikTok had to do in the early days which is
you have this massive tidal wave of usage. And so you're always on a little bit of a hamster wheel. And so you build these very basic tools and you uncover problems along the way.
And so I think it's important to humanize the people that are at Twitter because I'm not sure that they're these super nefarious actors per se. I do think that they were conflicted. I do think that they made some very corrupting decisions, but I don't think that they were these evil actors. I think that they were folks who, against the tidal wave of usage,
built some brittle tools, built on top of them, built on top of it some more, and tried to find a way of coping. And as scale increased, they didn't have an opportunity to take a step back and reset. And I think that that's true for all of these companies. And so you're just seeing it out in the light, what's happening at Twitter, but don't for a second think that any other company behaved any differently. Google, Facebook, Twitter, ByteDance and TikTok, they're all the same. They're all dealing with this problem and they're all probably trying to do
a decent job of it as best as they know how. So what do we do from here is the question, okay? The reason somebody needs to do something about this is summarized really elegantly in this Jay Bhattacharya tweet. So please, Nick, just throw it up here so that we can just talk about this. This is why I think that this issue is important.
Critically, there's a perfect tweet still trying to process my emotions on learning that Twitter blacklisted me. Okay, who cares about that? Here's what matters. The thought that will keep me up tonight censorship of scientific discussion permitted policies like school closures and a generation of children were hurt. Now, just think about that in a nutshell.
What was Jay Bhattacharya to do? Maybe he was supposed to go on TikTok and try to sound the alarm bells through a TikTok. Maybe he was supposed to go on YouTube and create a video. Maybe he was supposed to go on Facebook and post into a Facebook group or do a newsfeed post.
the the problem is that and the odds are reasonably likely that a lot of these companies have very similar policies in this example around covid misinformation because it was the cdc and you know governmental organizations directing information and rules
Reaching out to all of these companies, right? So we're just seeing an insight into Twitter, but the point is it happened everywhere. The implication of suppressing information like this is that a credible individual like that can't spark a public debate. And in not being able to spark the debate, you have this building up of errors in the system.
And then who gets hurt in this example, which is true, is like you couldn't even talk about school closures and masking upfront and early in the system. If you had scientists actually debated, maybe what would have happened is we would have kept the schools open and you would have had less learning loss and you'd have less depression and less over-prescription of riddle in and Adderall, because those are all factual things we can measure today. So I think the important thing to take away from all of this is we've got confirmatory evidence
Whether these folks under a tidal wave of pressure made some really bad decisions.
And the implications are pretty broad reaching. And now I do think governments have to step in and create better guardrails. So this kind of stuff doesn't happen. I don't buy the whole, it's a, you know, private company. They can do what they want. I think that that is too naive of an expectation for how important these three companies literally are.
to how Americans consume and process information to make decisions.
You know, that they told us all along what was happening. This was just content moderation. They had the right to do this. You're making a big deal over nothing. No, that's not true. Go back and look at the media coverage starting in 2018 article after article said that this idea of shadow banning was a right wing conspiracy theory. That's what they said.
Furthermore, Jack Dorsey denied that shadow painting was happening, including at a congressional hearing, I believe, under oath. So either he lied or he was lied to by his subordinates. I actually believe that the latter is possible. I think I don't think it's true with SBF. It might be true with Jack, because he's so checked out. Furthermore, you had people again, like Vijaya Gotti,
Again, tweeting and repeatedly stating, we do not shadow ban and we certainly don't shadow ban on the basis of political viewpoint. So these people were denying exactly what their critics were saying. They were accusing their critics of being conspiracy theorists. Now that the thing is proven, the mountain of evidence has dropped, they're saying, oh, well, this is old news. This was known a long time ago. No, it was not known a long time ago. It was disputed by you. And now finally, it's proven.
And you're trying to say it's not a big deal. It is a big deal. It's a violation of the public trust. And if you are so proud of your content moderation policies, why didn't you admit what you were doing in the first place?
It's like, do you feel good that Elon's running this business now? I mean, like, the things that you're concerned about as a user, as someone who cares about the public's access to knowledge, to opinions, to free speech, this has got to be a good change, right? Like, this has come to light. It's clearly going to get resolved. Everyone's going to move forward. I mean, do you think that there's penalties needed for the people that work there?
what what what's the anger because because no one like I think I look I think we got I think we basically got extremely lucky. Yeah, that Elon Musk happened to care about free speech and decided to do something about it and actually had the means to do something about it. He's just about the only billionaire who has that level of means who actually cared enough to take on this battle. But are you saying that this is a dessert place for that? But
I mean, unless Elon can buy every single tech company, which he clearly can't, I think you guys are right. This is happening a lot of other technologies. We're about to rewrite the government. The United States government is going to make an attempt to rewrite Section 230. I think that what this does is put a very fine point
On a comment that Elon actually tweeted out and Nick if you could find that please that's a very good tweet where he said going forward you will be able to see if you were shadow band you were able to see if you were debusted why and be able to appeal and I think that that concept
To be very honest with you should be enshrined in law and i think that should be part of the section two thirty rewrite and all of these media companies and all of the social media companies should be subject to it. And the reason is because it ties a lot of these concepts together and says look you can build a service your private company make as much money as you want.
But we're going to have some connective tissue back to the fundamental underpinnings of the Constitution, which is the framework under which we all live. And we're going to transparently allow you to understand it. And I think that's really reasonable. Make that a legal expectation of all these organizations. And by the way,
The companies, the companies will love it because I think it's super hard for you to be in these companies and they probably are like, take this responsibility off my plate. It's very simple. There's really four problems that occurred here. Number one, there was no transparency. The people who were shadow banned, taken out of search, et cetera, they did not know. If they were told and it was clear to users, we could have a discussion about was that a fair judgment or not?
In the cases we've seen so far from baroises reporting in the twitter files part do it's very clear that these were not justifiable number two. These were not evenly enforced it's very clear that one side we see because we don't have one example of a person on the left.
being censored. If we do, then we could put balls and strikes together and we could say, how many people on one side versus how many people on the other? It's pretty clear what happened here because these all occurred with a group of people working at Twitter, which is 96 or 97% left leaning. The statistics are clear. Number three, the shadow banning and the search banning, and I think this is something we talked about previously, Chamath, it feels very underhanded. This was your point.
If we're going to block people, they should be blocked and they should know why the fourth piece of this, which is absolutely infuriating. And this is a discussion that myself, Sacks and Elon have had many times about this moderation. And I'm not speaking out of school now because he's now very public with his position. And, you know, his position, he came to on his own. It's not like this is Sacks and I, you know, coming up these positions. This is why Elon bought the business.
If you really want to intellectually test your thinking on this, and I am a moderate who's left leaning, I can tell you there's a simple way for anybody who is debating the validity of the concerns here. Imagine Rachel Maddow or Ezra Klein, whoever your favorite left leaning pundit is, was shadow banned by a group of right wing moderators who were acting covertly and without any transparency.
How would you feel if Maddow reporting on, you know, uh, all the Russian coordination with Trump's campaign did this or as recline with whatever topics he covers and you will very quickly find yourself infuriated. And you should then intellectually, as we say on this program, steel manning, if you argue the other side, it's infuriating for either side to experience this. And that is what the two 30 change needs to beach them off. You're exactly correct.
If you make an action, it should be listed on the person's profile page and on the tweet. And if you click on the question mark, you should see when the action was taken by who, which department may be maybe not the person, so they get a personal attack. And then what the resolution to it is. This has been banned because it's targeted harassment. This can be resolved in this way.
then everybody's behavior would steer towards whatever the stated purpose of that social network is. You can get better behavior by making the rules clear, by making the rules unclear, and making it unfair, you create this insane situation. Go ahead, Shamaf. And that's why I'm infuriated about it. I think you have to take it one step further to really do justice to why this should be important to everybody. And I do think this school example, it really matters to me.
We have, like I don't know now, we know what the counterfactual is, which is that we have, I mean, we've relegated our children to a bunch of years of really complicated relearning and learning that they never had to go through because of all the learning laws they gave them.
But what if Jay Bhattacharya, who's, I mean, like you can't be, you know, have a higher sort of role in society in terms of, you know, population credentials. I mean, imagine if, you know, there was a platform where he could have actually said this and that, you know, people would have clamored and said, you know what, you and Fauci need to get to the bottom of this or where legislators could have seen it and said, you know what, before we make a decision like this,
maybe hey fauci go talk to jay because he's a stanford profits probably not an idiot why does he think that or maybe let's convene you know an actual group of twenty or thirty scientists and the fact that this one version of thinking about things was deemed so heterodoxical it is just such a good example they shut down an important conversation you know that the decision was so wrong
And the damage was so severe. So we know what happened by suppressing that speech. And that's one example. Well, it's in my, in my estimation, it is the silver bullet example that cleans through all of this other stuff because, you know, I don't really care if Rachel Maddow has reclined, who the hell cares?
This is important stuff because it affects everybody irrespective of your political persuasion and what editorial you want to read. Shamaf, what if the investigation into the Catholic Church and the abuses that occurred there? Oh, my God. So we said, oh, this person, it needs to be shut down. And then children are molested for another decade. By the way, we have an example of that. Shenandoah Conner came out on SNL. You can look it up for if you're under 40 years old and said, fight the real enemy. She ripped up a picture of the pope because of the scandals there.
She was excommunicated. She was canceled at that time. One of the first people to be canceled. Could she spoke truth to power? What if somebody, an investigative journalist at the New York Times, the Boston Globes are in the movie spotlight? Those are the people who broke the story of the Catholic Church. If somebody came in and the Catholic Church put pressure on a social network and said, Hey, you can't put this stuff up here.
You can't have the discussion of it. Here's another example. Simfuried, why are we shutting down discussions in America? Remember the Vietnam Papers? Well, because, because J. Kyle, the media does not value transparency anymore. If you go back and look at the way the media portrays itself, like in the movie The Post, which is about the revelations about the Catholic Church, where you go back to all the President's men, what the media...
prized and what they congratulated themselves on was first of all, transparency and exposing the lies of powerful people. Well, that is exactly what has happened here. The lies of the powerful group of people who were running Twitter policy and suppressing one side of the debate
has been exposed and the media is treating it with a yawn. Like there's nothing to see here. Why? Because they were complicit in this. They were complicit in suppressing the views of people like Jay Bhattacharya. They were complicit in choosing the views of Fauci and the elite on COVID. And so they have no interest now in bringing and making and making what's happened here at Twitter fully transparent.
I think by the way, just a quick correction there. I think Saks, when you said the post, Washington Post, Watergate, spotlight, exactly. I've been thinking about spotlight, sorry. It was Maven's spotlight. But the post is another example. That movie was about another event like this, which could have been easily suppressed in today's world, much harder there, which was depending on papers.
And in that world, there was an immense amount of pressure that the government put on the Washington Post, but then they said, you know what, we're going with it and they still published it. And it created a groundswall of support to really re-examine the Vietnam War. And it had a huge impact. But could you imagine this time around, which is like, hey, guys, there's going to be some kind of misinformation. These Pentagon papers are not real. It's coming from the Russians, suppress it. So much easier now to run this play, what journalists need to realize.
is that today's conspiracy theories are tomorrow's Pulitzer Prizes onto USAC. Not in the current media environment, they work for these corporations and they don't get rewarded for telling the truth. Oh no, they're going for Pulitzer's, trust me they are. But what they need to do is stop thinking short-term and think long-term. Anytime there's a conspiracy theory, you must give it some validity and say, is there any truth here? Because it could in fact be a scandal that's being covered up.
They're involved in the cover-up right now. They're involved in the cover-up right now. This is a cover-up, I agree. I'm going to agree with you. Let's bring the first batch of Twitter files into the conversation, the one that Matt Teiby exposed. What he did was confirm that a completely true story by the New York Post about Hunter Biden that came out a month before the election was suppressed by Twitter executives, including at the behest
of FBI agents and former security state officials. This has now been exposed. There was no legitimate basis for suppressing that story. It was true. It was a respective publication. They did it anyway. This is election interference. The same people who pride themselves on strengthening democracy
are engaged in this wide-scale censorship of one side of the political debate, including of true stories for an election. And then they puff out their chests and say, we're protecting democracy. They're not protecting democracy. They're interfering with democracy. They're interfering with the public's right to know.
And then we look at a country like China and we say, we're so much better than them because they've got this problem over there where the state and big tech are colluding to create a big brother like system. Well, what is this? What are these tools that have been exposed? This is a big brother like system.
Yeah, but just you have to, I know you want to make it like an equivalency. It's less than a 1% equivalency because in our society, we can have moments like this and we can have investigation. So just to put it in a percent. Yeah, I don't think we're equivalent. But what I'm saying is that this is very much like a big brother social credit system. Yes, alarm bells should be going off.
This should be an alarm. And if Elon didn't decide, we had this one idiosyncratic billionaire who believes in free speech. If he didn't decide to take this on, we would never have known this stuff. Okay, tell me what happened in between these two things. There is an attorney at Twitter, and I don't know the details of this. Right, okay, so this is an interesting. I do not work for the Twitter Corporation. I do not speak for the Twitter Corporation. SACS does not work for the Twitter Corporation and does not speak for it. But there was in between these two drops something that happened.
Yes. So basically what was discovered, and this is all just publicly reported, is that former FBI lawyer named Jim Baker had now become deputy general counsel at Twitter. And this guy, Jim Baker is like the zelling of the whole Russian collusion hoax. He was involved
in the FISA warrants that the FBI applied to the FISA courts that had all the errors and omissions. He was involved in the Alpha Bank hoax. He was the guy that Perkins CoE lawyer assessment was feeding this like phony scam to. And I don't think he was officially sanctioned, but basically he was asked to leave the FBI. And then lo and behold, where does he land at Twitter?
And he is involved in their content moderation policies. I think what it shows is how deeply intertwined our big tech companies have become with the security state. Now, how did this get exposed? Well, Barry Weiss was basically putting forward document requests for the latest batch of Twitter files, and she wasn't getting anything back. And she's like, what's going on here? And the guy who's giving her the files is his name is Jim.
And she's like, well, wait, like, wait, Jim Jim who? And she finds out, wait, Jim Baker, wait, that Jim Baker that New York Post had a long story about this guy. And so it was discovered that the guy who was curating the Twitter files was this former operative of the FBI who was involved in the Russian collusion hoax and then was involved in their, their blacklist decisions. So in any event, once this came out,
Twitter fired him. And then, you know, Barry apparently received all these files that are now the second batch of the Twitter files. And just to be clear, that's not James Baker, if you're, you know, thinking it's the former Reagan cabinet member, not James Baker. This is Jim Baker, who is a different person.
But a lot of people are wondering, well, how could this have been missed? Listen, these guys don't want to be found. This is some people call it the permanent Washington establishment. Some people call it the deep state. The administration's come and go. The people who work in Washington stay there forever, and they can simply effectuate policy by outlasting everybody else.
And clandestinely implementing what they believe and they've become a constituency of their own that exercises power like a praetorian guard in Washington. So in any event, this guy is an expert at bowl we've lay himself into the bureaucracy. Great.
Praetorian guard bully, you're fired. Hold on. So when they finally rooted, when they finally rooted this mole out of the FBI, he bowls himself into another powerful bureaucracy. What is that word, Twitter? Evil, bully, evil, like burrows, like burrows, like burrows, like that. So.
Well, he digs his way into the Twitter bureaucracy to the point where he isn't even found and then somehow he has put himself in the position to be intermediating the Twitter files. Can you believe this? So once it was discovered, a very obscure Roman army that served as personal body guards and intelligence agents, the Praetorian guard. Okay. Got it. Well, you understand what happened is that the Praetorian guard originated because they were to defend the life of the emperor. And then what happened?
that then they became so powerful that whoever bribed the Praetorians would become Emperor. And then finally, the last step is that the Praetorians themselves would pick the Emperor and whoever basically led the Praetorian Guard would be the next Emperor.
At any event, we're not at that point yet, but the point is that these security state officials have power that they should not have. That's the bottom line. They should not be involved in our elections in this way. They should be completely nonpartisan and non-political. They should just do their jobs as law enforcement officials, but we know from the Hunter Biden story that a very important piece of this
was the pre-bunking that the FBI went to Facebook and Twitter and social networks and said, be on the lookout for a story about Hunter Biden. It is Russian disinformation. And they primed these social networks to suppress that story when it came out. That was something they never should have done. And they knew they knew the story was not fake. They knew it was not Russian disinformation because they had the laptop in their possession since 2019.
Well, okay, that has not, the providence of the laptop is still being reviewed in fairness. And there's still, hold on. You're wrong. And there is an investigation going on of Hunter Biden. You also have to put the context in here, and please let me finish. There is a context here of there was massive election interference going on, both sides of the aisle, Republicans, Democrats,
all wanted to see the Russian interference and the Ukrainian interference and Trump's encouraging the Ukraine and the Republicans, the Russians to interfere in elections. Everybody was on high alert and that happened to drop like it was announced 30 days before and it dropped 10 days per the election. So everybody was on high alert and I agree it was not done properly. Hold on. It should have been done. It should have been done properly.
They should have said, they should have come out public and say, we don't know the providence of this. We could be hacked. It might not be hacked. Jason, they knew. They knew. Let's wait and see. We have to reserve judgment. No, listen, let me tell you what happened. Let me just tell you what happened. Okay. So they use this. And make sure you source this. I will. So look, it's all in the New York Post. Okay. They've done. Great. No, it, nobody has refuted it. Nobody's refuted it. Let me just tell you what happened. No, let me just get, let me just get this on the record here. So from the post.
The FBI was given the laptop in 2019 by the lap store store owner. Those guys have forensics. They have cyber experts. They knew the laptop was real. We know it's real now. Nobody questions that. In fact, the FBI has admitted that the laptop was real and that the 100 bind files are real.
Nobody disputes that, okay? But what they did before the election is they used this excuse of Russian disinformation to discredit the story before it even came out. But then no business getting involved in the story that way. They simply didn't. They should have stayed out of it completely.
I don't, I don't understand how you can possibly justify that. Yeah. I mean, I think we do have to look at the context of that time period when Hillary's emails were hacked and we had a perfect excuse. Well, I didn't finish the sentence and we had a president, which you will agree, our presidents and presidential candidates should not be encouraging foreign powers to hack their, uh, their adversaries. You agree with that? Do you agree with that? Answer my question. Do you agree with that?
answer the question why do you have to do that? You would have to personally attack me. No, I'm not. Personally, just answer the question. This is your election denial of for 2016. You're still wrapped up on this. You can't let it go. Again, you personally attack me. You don't answer the question. That's fine. We'll move on.
You can't be intellectually honest. The audience knows you're not being intellectually honest. You're not talking about. If you could answer the simple question, should presidents encourage foreign powers to hack their adversaries, then you would be being intellectually dishonest? I am absolutely disappointed that you will not answer that simple question. It's an obvious yes. It's an obvious yes. We don't want people to do that. Of course, but I don't really believe that happened. I don't really believe that happened. You will say because you know Trump's going to win the primary. Let's keep going.
China honestly, I don't know. Listen, I don't I've said so many times in the show that he's not my candidate. I don't know what you're talking about. You're going all the way back. What you're doing right now is like delusional. You're going back to some throwaway comment. He made it a rally in 2016. It's got nothing absolutely nothing to do with this story. And the fact you even bring it up is like pure TDS. And I don't want to waste time talking about it.
Instead of answering a question, that's your technique is to call me names instead of answering the question. I'm muddy the waters. I want to make one more point. Another technique that I'm muddy in the water. So I'm not in the water. You are answering the question. Let's move on. I want to make one final point. OK, I'll make a final point. There was a letter. Listen, there was a letter with the 100 Biden thing. This is 2020 election. Jason, we're not going back two elections ago. I want to talk about the most recent one.
Okay, fine. You had clapper, you had Comey at 50 of these security state officials, they write a letter saying that the Hunter Biden story has all the hallmarks of Russian disinformation. They claim that it was Russian disinformation. When it wasn't, they knew it wasn't.
And it was the same story that the FBI was telling Twitter, and it was the same story that these Twitter executives were indulging in, even though they all knew or had reason to know it wasn't true. And they suppressed the New York Post story anyway. I don't know why you're bringing up this Trump stuff. It has nothing to do with the real issue here. Hold on a second, the real issue is this. Does social media have the right to suppress true stories put out by our media before the month before an election? Yes or no?
I'll answer your question yes and no, and you will not answer mine because you're being intellectually dishonest. Yes, we should know, we should not suppress news stories if it was, and I will argue both sides. If it was Snowden, if it was the Pentagon Papers, if it's Hunter Biden's laptop taking out the sex stuff, which we both agree on.
or if it is Russia and Ukraine where your presidential candidate at the time Trump asked Zelensky to find dirt on Biden before the election. And he asked the Russians to hack Hillary's email and they did that and they released it 10 days before the election. That is facts that happened. And that is not what this was. You said you would let me speak.
and you will let me see. You're letting the waters. No, stop interrupting me and stop insulting me. I will say my part, you said yours, and then we will move on. The fact is, Trump encouraged hacking of other candidates, and he did it twice in a four-year period back-to-back elections. We need to be on high alert when you have a Republican candidate, Trump doing something so absolutely treasonous.
This was a perfect cover story. This is why it was a perfect cover story is because people address the treasonous behavior. Listen, I don't think it was a perfect phone call. I think it was there are lots of shenanigans. There are lots of shenanigans. It's called a treason. Hold on. I'm not defending anything. Trump did. OK, I don't feel the need. OK, I never defended it. But here, but the deal is that you're letting your TDS.
I don't justify. He's crazy. You're letting you're allowing this Russian disinformation to be a cover story. No, I don't think post should have been blocked. You're you're you're mischievous. You're not even bringing this up. It was not Russian. The context under which the the reason I'm bringing it, I agree that the post context made a great cover story. That's your interpretation. The context also is everybody was on high alert waiting for a hack to drop. And in fact, a hack drop 10 days before you have to find it.
Okay, we found out subsequently was a hack. They knew at the point. They knew at the point. Twitter and Facebook did not know. Twitter and Facebook didn't know. That's the point. They go back to the Twitter files, the first drop.
Jim Baker, hold on a second, Jim Baker and Vijaya Gotti said that there were a lot of internal questions about whether that honor buying story could be justified under the hacked policy. And there were many legitimate questions raised internally about whether they could maintain that party line. And the emerging view was that they could no longer maintain that line. And still, Gotti and Jim Baker said, no, we will maintain the idea that this was hacked information.
until proven otherwise. Even though it was not hacked, it was a New York Post story. Okay. Let's agree to disagree. Let's move on. Why are you bringing up all this like irrelevant stuff? I think the audience, the audience and the other besties want us to move on. So let's move on. China ends most zero COVID rules and Iran might be abolishing its morality. Police news broke in the past week. On Wednesday, China's health authorities overhauled its zero COVID policy and announced a 10 point national plan that scrapped most health code tracking and
Also, they're rolling back their mass testing, and this allowed many positive cases too, just simply quarantine at home like we were doing, I guess, a year ago now. And they're limiting some of these lockdowns. This all comes from a Foxconn letter, which we don't know the cause causation here. It doesn't show up. But we don't know. That's why I just said we don't know cause and correlation here. Give us some perspective here, Shama. Well,
I just think it's kind of ridiculous to assume that the second largest economy in the world pivots based on one letter from one CEO. So I know that that's how the Western idea- Describe the letter, please. Well, apparently what happened was Terry Guo.
who's colloquially known as uncle terry who's a c eo fox con road a letter that essentially said you know if we don't figure out a way to get out of these panda this this lockdown process. We're going to lose you know our leadership in the global supply chain. And apparently that jolted the central planning commission to realize that they needed to you know get out of these like that i think it's something different which is i think this has been part and parcel.
a very focused and dedicated plan by g phase one was to consolidate power phase two was to get through november and to basically get reappointed for life and dispel any other you know rivals that he actually had. And now phase three is just a reopen the economy again so this guy can basically sit on top of.
the second largest economy in the world. So I think this is sort of a natural flow of things. The other part of it, which I think is being underreported, is I think that the way in which they did it was less responsive in my opinion to a letter from Uncle Terry, but was more responsive to the fact that there are people on the ground. And I think that these guys are getting very sophisticated at understanding how to give the Chinese people some part of what they want
so that they're roughly happy enough to keep moving forward. And I'm not going to morally judge whether it's right or wrong, but it's just a comment on what the gameplay and the game theory seems to be coming from the leadership of China.
So I think this is good for the Chinese people. And the real question is what will it mean for the US economy if these guys get their economy going again? We talked about this previously, but this is a good example of the autocrat not necessarily being absolute.
in their authority. And the sense that I think we get at this point coming out of China is that there was enough dissent from the populace on the lockdown and the experience of the lockdowns. And we can all go online and see the videos of steel bars being put on doors to keep people in their apartment buildings and people screaming and buildings being on fire. People can't escape the buildings. How much of that was true or not? And riots in the street and people fighting with the COVID testers
How much of it is crew or not? We don't really know.
but it certainly seems to indicate that there was enough dissent and enough unrest that in order to stay in power, the CCP had to take action and they had to shift their position and shift their tone. And I think it's a really important moment to observe that sometimes the CCP and perhaps even we can extend this into other autocratic regimes that we think are absolute in their authority and their power.
perhaps are necessarily influenced by the people that they are there to govern and that they are, you know, ruling over and that while we don't think about these places as democracies, perhaps they're not entirely the traditionally defined autocracy, that there is an influence that the people can have. And maybe we see the same change happening in Iran.
with young people and a population that's more modern, that's growing and swelling and size, that doesn't want to accept some of the traditional norms and the traditional laws. And maybe that will kind of start to resonate around the world, that the internet is starting to do what everyone hoped and wanted it to do, which is the democratization of information, the demarcation of seeing other people's conditions and seeing what the rest of the world is and is like,
gives the populace the ability to rise up and to say this is what we want, because we know that there are better things out there. And these autocratic regimes have to start to shift slightly. And over time, maybe that has a real impact. Here's a specific statistic and chart for everybody. The demographics of Iran are incredibly notable. If you look at this chart,
For those of you listening, it just shows people by age and what percentage of the population they are or actually the world numbers of the population. As you can see, it's basically like a pair. You have very few old people and you have a lot of people in their 20s and younger.
And so young people- No, Jason, it's really 40s and 30s is really- Yeah, okay, so 40s, 30s. You don't have the geriatric population that you see in other countries like Japan. And so the demographics of Iran are extremely weighted towards younger people, millennials, gen-axers, and younger. And they have VPNs, virtual private networks. They can see everything happening in the free world.
uh, versus let's say close societies. And so I think that's what gives me a lot of hope is that these countries are going to have to evolve because young people are seeing how the rest of the world lives. And I think that's a big part of the change to mouth. What are your thoughts?
about Iran specifically. I think the demographic change and then China and demographic change. I've said this before and I've been tweeting about this for years, but people so poorly understand demographics. Everybody thinks that we have a surplus of people and we don't.
And we need to have a positive birth rate in order to kind of continue to support the expansion of the world in GDP. And we need that. And right now we're not in that situation. If you look at a country by country basis, a lot of these countries are facing that in a pretty cataclysmic way, the most
sensitive country to this is China. I mean, their population get current course and speed. I think the last number is it's going to have by 2100. There'll be about 600 million people in China, which is unbelievably disruptive in a very negative way for them, right? Because you will have a lot of people who are entering the workforce having to support
an entire cohort of people above them in terms of age, who are retired, et cetera. So the state's going to have to get much, much more actively involved over the next 50 years in China. And then you look at other countries like Nigeria or India, who are at the beginning of what could be a multi-decade boom.
Because you have 20 year olds that will be entering the workforce, you know, they'll effectively work for less than their older counterparts, right? So then they'll be an incentive then to bring work on shore into those countries. And so it's going to have huge impacts because then you have rising GDP, you'll have rising expectations of living quality, you'll have rising expectations of how governments treat those people. So it's all kind of positive in general, but the world needs more people.
Let's just be clear, especially in Western countries. We're not as badly off as China, but we're not far behind. Here's a quick view of China and Japan, the same kind of what they exactly call these charts are like vertical histograms. Data is hard to come by in some countries, but China is starting to get top heavy.
when compared to Iran. And then if you look at Japan, quite stunning, there's just no young people left and they live very too much older ages in Japan. It says longevity is one of their great strengths as a population, as a country. And so these demographics can't be fought. You're going to have a constricting economy in Japan. And their place in the world is going to be very, very different.
Okay, where do we want to go to next? You don't ask my opinion on these protests in China. Usually you just talk. So go ahead. I didn't want to. I didn't know. I usually have to fight to give my opinion. Oh, here we go. Listen, have your agent call my agent. We'll talk about it. Okay. We'll talk about it. I have a slightly different view of what's happening in China, Jason, which is, you know, I think that the people there need to stop harassing the CCP.
You see, the Chinese Communist Party, they're the elites. They've set things up for the benefit of the people. They're not engaged in shadow banning. They're just, you know, they have a system there to, you know, to engage in censorship, to prevent abuse and harm. Yeah. Right. That's the system. They've set up, right? Yeah. And the people just need to understand that, that when they say things like, you know, when they oppose things like COVID lockdowns, like Jay Bonnetoria did, they need to understand that that is engaging in abuse and harm.
Exactly. Yes. And you know what? We re-education camps for citizens who need to maybe rethink their positions on freedom and their wages, the hours they work, and their social conditions. You're absolutely correct. China really has built a perfect model for a society. Well said, Saks.
Now we can move forward. Let's go. Now we can move forward. We are finally ready. By the way, you know, that's going to get clipped out and go viral. Well, if you understand, according to our elites, according to our elites, like YOL Roth or Taylor Lorenz, to criticize them is a form of harassment. You understand that, right? So therefore what the people in China are doing, specifically by opposing lockdowns,
You know, they're taking the Jay Potter chariot point of view. They're engaging in harm and abuse and harassment of their betters of their elites. I mean, the disagreement. Why won't they just submit to the social credit system that has been set up for them for their benefit? It's for their benefit. Why question? Yeah, just accept, accept your fate and work hard for the good of the people. Great points. Let's move forward. Shall we talk about sales? No, I think it's actually a pretty, it's a pretty good satire. I agree.
All right, I think we have to talk about FTX. I don't know if you saw, and the people covering for SPF, it continues to be an absolute joke. The number of interviews that SPF is doing is absurd, but the people carrying water for him is even more offensive. I mean, if you're a criminal trying to cover up your crime, okay, we get it. You're trying to cover up and stay out of jail.
But Kevin O'Leary, who calls himself Mr. Wonderful, was on CNBC trying to defend the fact that he was given, this is stunning, by the way, 15 fucking million dollars to be a spokesperson for FTX. So the grift not only went to the press politicians, but now commentators on CNBC,
$15 million to put that in context. I mean, you're talking what an elite NBA player gets from Nike. This does not exist in the world. You know, Kevin O'Leary might get, you know, 50 to 200 K for speaking gigs, but nobody gets $15 million to show. Here's a 75 second clip that I don't know if you've all have seen, but is unbelievably stunning. See you on the other side of 75 seconds.
If you're a defense attorney that represents someone that you know is guilty, you gotta say, yeah, well, they're innocent. But you may know they're guilty. You may know they're guilty. If you find someone, if you watch someone, kill someone. Yeah, they're innocent. I don't think they're guilty. There's only the murder of my money in this case, okay? It's murder of FTX's money, in my view. Everybody's, everybody's. Look, Joe.
I don't think you should be singing the blues right now at all. Oh, yes, I'm singing the blues. Why? Because you're 15 million didn't pay enough that you. That's a lot of money. This is a paid spokesperson. It's a lot of money. You didn't have to do much for that. That's found money. That's a different decision. That's a different discussion. You can make that decision on your own, but I'm going to this point on money. If you want to say he's guilty before he's tried, I just don't understand it. But it may end up possibly 15 for a reputation on everything else. That's the problem.
That's why I stayed on this pursuit. I'm very transparent about it. I've disclosed everything I know about it. I will find out more information. If I make the credit committee, I will act as a fiduciary for everybody involved. I will testify. I am an advocate for this industry and this changes nothing. Just look at the numbers that came out of circle today. I'm an investor there too. You've got the, I lost it all in FTX and we have a fantastic print on circle. The promise of crypto remains. This will not change it.
pretty crazy fifteen million bucks any thoughts on the continuing s b f saga sex well i don't know why we should care so much about him i mean kevin liro but um...
But look, it's indicative, right? It's indicative of all these guys that got money from this guy. Who is he? Who is he? He's on Shark Tank. He's one of what? He's on Shark Tank and he's a contributor to CNBC who's on multiple times a week. The point is, like you've got the grift, I'm just trying to point out, $15 million to a CNBC commentator is just an extraordinary payoff.
I've never heard of anything like that. I don't think it's fair to pick on Kevin O'Leary, per se, because there is a bunch of those guys that took money from him. A bunch of athletes did, probably a bunch of movie stars.
Yeah, like everybody got paid by this guy. Okay, just like in the Twitter example, I think it's important in this case to generalize, because the generalize thing is the real problem. Look, if you want to focus on the crux of this,
You have a concept in law that sacks knows better than the rest of us called fraudulent conveyance and we have example after example, where it does not matter whether it was in the bernie made off example or for example Jason we talked about it the guy in la that lost all the money client funds playing poker.
Yep. You have to give the money back, especially if it was fraudulently conveyed to you. Can you explain this in detail for a second so the audience understands? Well, on my understanding, which is very basic, and I think David can probably do a much better job as the following, which is if you get money,
some way, but it comes from somebody who fraud fraudulently acquired that money. You have to give the money back. So in this example, what it would mean is if that they can show that that $15 million that this guy got came from SBF basically rating the piggy bank of user accounts.
He's going to have to pay the money back. Just like, for example, in the made off fraud, the folks that went to find the money were able to go back to folks that actually redeemed even the beginning early ones and said, I understand that you didn't know any better, but this was fraudulently conveyed to you. So we need the money back and they got the money back.
In that case, if they had put a million in and it grew to three million, they got their million principal back, but the two million in gains, which were ill-gotten, had to be returned. So as I understand it based on just what I've read, that there's a 90-day rule around contributions, meaning that if, I think this has to do with the bankruptcy, that if he donated money within 90 days,
then that can be unwound. But I do think it creates potentially a powerful incentive here by politicians and various political groups for him not to be convicted of fraud, for him to be able to plead this out into some sort of negligence because they don't have to give the money back. They keep the bag. What an incredible insight.
Well, this is what I think so interesting about the Kevin O'Leary thing. It's not about Kevin O'Leary, but it's about the fact that the money was spread around so widely and into such like deep trenches of the regulatory world. Society, society, like influencers. Yeah. And basically, I think the guy like cemented the, he thought that like, which I think by the way is a really interesting product of
the crypto ecosystem and the model that so many crypto businesses have engaged in over the years, which is if you can fester the belief, then there is a business. If you cannot fester the belief, there is no business, that there isn't a fundamental productivity driver. It's about building a belief system. And you can buy a belief system. If you can take money that people have given you, you can embed it in influencers and celebrities and politicians and regulators. And if you give it to enough of these people,
and you give enough of it to them, maybe that belief system solidifies and your thing becomes real. Which is a classic riff technique, by the way, in the grifters. Oh, tell us all about it, Jacob. Yeah. What you do is you have the master. No, no, it's the patina. It's this, you know, you look like you're incredibly rich. You know, you're going to fancy restaurants, you're wearing an expensive suit, you're getting in a sports car, and then you own some palazzo, whatever.
and then some other rich person comes and you get them to invest in something and then you have gone with the money. But they see all the accruetrments, you check all the boxes, your parents were Stanford, you went to MIT and you are donating large sums of money and you got this big table at the club and you got a penthouse, everybody starts to feel, well, Mite is right, you got the wealth there might be. How would you guys feel about honestly? Honestly, no, backing the CEO,
of a growth stage company that you put your firm's money into, who lives in a $130 million house and has not yet exited the business. Absolute alarm bells everywhere. This is why I'm not a fan of secondary sales. Let me ask you guys a question. A secondary sales. Let me ask you guys a question. Do you think that a billion dollars of dark money could stop a red wave? Just asking for a friend.
billion dollars. Do you think it was overweighted to Democrats? No, honestly, do you think it's overweighted the money? Yes. His mother was a huge Democratic bundler. Yeah. And moreover, the, the specific politicians he needed to influence there. Yes, there were some Republicans, but by and large, it was the SEC. You the first person to make this claim. I want to say, did you hear it here first on the only pod? Much credit. David Sacks, David Sacks making the declaration that the way was stopped because of
Well, let me ask a follow-up question. What do you think would have more impact on our election? Enormous amounts of dark money going to Democrats or extensive shadow banning of conservative influencers? Which one do you think would have a bigger impact? And hold on a minute, in the 50-50 country where, I mean, the scales are like balance where these elections are just a few thousand votes. What do you think the result is going to be?
if we actually have a level playing field, we get rid of this swindlers dark money. Yeah, that's an interesting question. Let me add, let me add, I think to that, what would have a bigger impact this. I think this is great. Except for when you guys in your fight, like, or taking away a woman's right to choose after 50 years of giving it to them, which would have a bigger impact on the red wave. I did have a big impact, but I think we're going to cross that. Yeah. All right. Great. Yeah.
Great, great, great strategic facts. What do you think about the cinema, Kristen cinema, Kirsten cinema, flipping to independent? Do you think that's a big deal or? I think, I think it's really interesting. I think it's actually a very shrewd move on her part. Well, first of all, I think she's great. You know, tell us, tell us about her sex.
No, he's great. She is the center from Arizona, formerly Democrat, now independent, who is in the mold of John McCain, who is a former center from Arizona, sort of this maverick independent. And she does not kowtow to her party orthodoxy. And when Biden wanted to pass three and a half trillion of Build Back Better spending, she, along with Manchin, opposed it. And I think saved the administration
from this gigantic boondoggle that would have been inflation much much worse. Now, man, she got all the credit, but she was equally responsible for putting a hold on that. And then as a result, they only did the 750 billion inflation reduction act. So she's willing to buck her own party. Now, as a result of that,
I think they were planning on she was going to get primary that the progressive wing of the party was planning on primary her. And by moving to an independent in a sense, she preempts that because what she's now saying is she's now sort of like, you know, Bernie Sanders is an independent or this guy Angus King from from Maine. They still caucus with the Democrats, but their independence and the end and the Democrats don't run candidates against them because they know
that if they do, you'll have a Republican, a Democrat, an independent, and the Democrats and the independents will split the vote and the Republican will win. So basically, she's now daring the Democrats, hey, if you want to run a candidate against me, I'm not going to sit around and get primary by them. You go ahead and run somebody, but then we're both going to lose to the Republican. That's what's smart about it is I think she's daring Schumer to run somebody against her.
It's also interesting. She's the only member of Congress I've read that's non-theist, which is kind of like atheist. She doesn't talk about God or doesn't believe in God. And I think she's the first openly bisexual member of Congress. She's a maverick.
Certainly. Saks, do you think she held up on making this decision until after that Georgia Senate runoff election finished? And do you think that it influenced the decision? I don't know. But I think that the key consideration here for her is, well, imagine if she doesn't make this move now. Okay.
And then in two years, well, I guess really next year, she gets primary. Okay. And then what if she loses the primary? It's going to be very hard for her to run as an independent. At that point, it'll look like sour grapes or loser, right? But if she goes independent now,
And she's saying, listen, I'm running as an independent amount of what? The question you have to make is what the Democratic Party is whether to support me or basically take this election and throw it to the public. Will we see more of this purple approach? I was just going to ask you, what does this mean for Joe Manchin?
Well, I don't think Joe Manchin has this problem, and I'll tell you why, because West Virginia, unlike Arizona, is like a plus 22 red state. Joe Manchin is the only politician in that state who could win that seat for the Democrats. When Joe Manchin retires, that seat is going Republican.
And Schumer knows is the Democrats know this. They think they're lucky stars every day that they got Joe Manchin because otherwise that would be a Republican seat. And so look, all this stuff about how the progressives were upset with Manchin and all that Bappable city he got, that may be, you know, the sort of progressive wing is going to say that publicly. But the smart Democrats know that they're very lucky to have a politician like Joe Manchin on their side of the aisle. I could ask a question to you, Chamath. Why do Democrats
Why are they? It seems to be so anti moderate Democrats. Why are they so resistant to the concept of a moderate Democrat when obviously moderate Democrats seem to have an advantage in these elections? Well, no, I think David described it well, which is that in many of the seats, this is both true for Republicans and for Democrats. You're not really competing in a general election. You're competing in a primary. And if you win a primary, you're probably going to win.
So if you're in Mississippi, for example, you just have to win the Republican primary. Nothing else matters. And then you're just going to skate to victory. And so the real question is, who votes in those are different oftentimes than who votes in the general? And this is why you get this dispersion that's happening where folks seem to be getting more and more extreme. It's reflecting the sound bites that those primary voters want to hear. And this is the big problem that we have. And that's why if you have
a bunch of this, you know, rank choice voting or, you know, these other kinds of methods, it starts to clean that up so that you move people more into the moderate middle. But that's why that's why you have this crazy stuff happening. All right, everybody, this has been another amazing episode of the All In Podcast for the dictator, the Sultan of Science and David Sachs. Hi, Jake, I'll see you next time. Bye bye. Let your winners ride. Rain man, David Sachs.
We open sourced it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it.