All right, what's going on? This is Sam. We've got an awesome episode today. We have Andrew Wilkinson on the pod. Andrew is one of our good buddies. Andrew owns this company called Tiny. Tiny basically started as like this agency that made a bunch of profit and he took those profit and he's bought like 18 or 20 different companies. And he took Tiny Public, I think today it's trading in the $600 million market cap. So he's got like a really good perspective on what's going on in life. During this episode, I think it's the like,
With 20 minutes left in the episode, he's actually said something that I'm sitting here taking notes. It's going to change my business. It's about the, this thing he called the profit first mentality and he goes in, in depth on how much money he leaves in each business and how the CEOs are able to operate them. It's really insightful stuff that I haven't really heard him talk about before. And then also,
Andrew is interesting to me because Andrew is my close friends, but he's very wealthy and I get to ask him all types of questions kind of like behind the scenes stuff on how he spends his money. He talks about how he's now a patient, a peer at Tia, who's this famous doctor and how much he's spending on that and the outcome of that. I find it very interesting. He talks about shooting his shot with his hero, so he's done business with guys like Bill Ackman, who's a, you know, we're 10 or 20 billion dollars is a hedge fund guy. And he talks about how he met Charlie Munger, who's
Warm Buffett's partner. And so there's really interesting insights on a how he lives his life But how he got indoors that he did when he was still up and coming really fascinating So this is the episode with Andrew Wilkinson. Let me know what you guys think you can hit me up on Twitter the same part and let me know if you enjoyed it I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to Put my own in it like no days on
All right, what's up? We got the man here, Andrew Wilkinson, fan favorite guest of the pod. Welcome, Andrew. How's it going? Hey, guys, I'm good. So you gave us like a list of like ideas and things that you're kind of messing with, but you have this thing on here about sexy versus non-sexy things. And you're like, the things that everyone loves and the outside, they're the hardest ways to make a living. And so you said here,
that I didn't know this. Or maybe I did. I knew you owned a bakery. You said you owned a deli and a bakery. Is that two separate things or is it one thing? No, that's combined. That's one. And it's a pain in the butt.
Total pain in the ass. But think about this a lot lately because I think when you talk to young entrepreneurs, they always want to do something sexy. I was like that too. I was a product CEO. Every CEO has their thing. For me, it was making great products. When I was running software companies and stuff, I'd always be thinking,
Oh, when we release this new feature, that's when everything will take off or when we get this partnership or whatever big announcement, something flashy. But one of the things I've realized after running a company for like 20 years is it's really not the sexy stuff that pays off.
For example, we have a bunch of companies and one increased prices 30%, after not increasing prices for five years. They massively grew profits. That took 10 minutes, a little bit of planning, and that paid off big. One significantly reduced shipping costs by sizing down packaging.
Um, you know, another realized, Hey, we've got insane SEO on certain keywords and now we can drive affiliate revenue. Uh, you know, one had a bunch of customer gift card deposits and they were like, Oh shit, we can invest these in T bills and make 5% makes 500 grand a year of just pure profit. I just love these boring things like that. And I've realized that.
It's kind of sad, like, you know, I grew up being like, oh, yeah, I want to be the next Steve Jobs or James Dyson or something. But the things I'm actually good at are these really, really boring. I call them like lever pulls. You get in, you pull a lever and revenue earnings just grows, you know, by X percent.
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The good thing about that is that the older you get, the more appealing those get. And so, for example, this also is just in life. I've never seen a couch. I don't like the older I get. I'm just like, yeah, that'd be nice to sit right now. And I feel like the same thing happens in business where I used to think I wanted to pull off some awesome feet of creativity and hard work.
And I actually very rarely want to do that this time. But most of the time, I'm like, oh, what's the simplest thing I could do that will just make this work better? And you were the king of that. You were the king of that. You owned a video streaming startup that you were like to the moon or nowhere. And you spent like five years or four years doing it. I mean, you're all in.
crazy computer vision features and all this stuff even before AI became like, you know, really big. And the reality was like, we have this other business called birthday alarm. A birthday alarm was like a reminder of it's your friend's birthday today and they would send them a cheesy e-card, you know, if you paid $9 a year.
And that business had been printing cash, millions of dollars every year for like 15 plus years. I think it started in 2001. And this was like, I was working on it like in 2016, 2018. So like, you know, 18 years later. And we were like, you know, at one point, we finally got our senses and we were like, why don't we make birthday alarm like a little bit better? Like it pays all the bills.
we could just improve it, right? And even then, the team was like list of ideas, rewrite the whole thing in the new, like, you know, make it rewrite it in JavaScript. Oh, it's written in this old, like, language, because that's what was hot in 2001. We gotta rewrite the whole thing. And then when we do that, we'll be able to make it so much cooler. We'll add these new features. We'll redesign this. We redesigned it. Our designer spent mockup after mockup, unlike making it cleaner and more minimalist and more cool or whatever.
And I tell you what, after a year of doing all that shit, there was really only two things that made a difference. Number one, we raised prices. So you raised prices by 30%, exactly what you said, Andrew, because the prices hadn't gone up in 15 years. You just delete the zero in the $20 a month and change that to a five because it's 25 a month. Exactly. And then the second thing was we implemented Stripe instead of the old payments platform because Stripe had a feature where
If somebody's credit card expires and they get a new one, like they, you know, their credit card company gives them a new one, it would mess up your subscription and they stripe as a feature for 25 cents. They would just update it with the new card automatically without the user having to go type anything in. And that one, like one feature is like a, you know, seven figure feature that took honestly, no work on it. We just check a box on, on Stripe to be like, yeah, we want that. We'll pay the quarter for every time you do that. And, um,
You know, we made like an extra million dollars a year of profit just off of that one thing basically. And it was a big lesson learned of like, you know, the link between effort and result is so much more disconnected than you think. And the more mature you get, the more you realize like you should just work backwards from what's actually going to work, not like what's the cool or or difficult thing to do.
These things too, they're so often they're one day of work, right? We had a similar thing. We had this invoicing software about 10 years ago called Ballpark, and it was the first SaaS product that we built. And we realized we were doing, I think, $100 million of payment volume through the credit card processing. So I send Sam an invoice for 10 grand, and he has the option to pay on credit card. And we just marked it up too.
And I think that was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to us. And I remember it was like 10 minutes for me. I was like going through Stripe and realized there's this setting and I checked a box and suddenly we make way more money. So I think this stuff is super powerful. And I mean, like, just to tell, to like give an example. So, you know, Sam mentioned so I own like a deli and a bakery.
And when I was a kid, there is this bakery down at the end of my street that I would always go to on the weekends. I'd go and get a croissant and have a coffee and sit and listen to a podcast or something. And I knew the owner, my brother worked there. The owner would pay me like 10 bucks an hour to fix his computer. And about eight years ago, he comes to me and he's like, hey, I'm going to sell the business. I want to make sure it goes into good hands. Will you buy it?
And I don't know anything about the bakery or anything, but I kind of want to protect this like cool neighborhood institution. And so. And you want to be like a big shot. You want to be like, Oh, yeah, come hang out of my place. You know, like, would you like some of my bread? Yeah. There's like, there's always like a pride of ownership, right? Like if I tell someone, let's say like locally, I'm like,
Hey, I own this huge social network for graphic designers dribble. They're like, you know, eyes glaze over. They don't care. But if I say, oh, I own Otavio, like the local bakery that everybody goes to with their kids, they're like, whoa, that's so cool. So there's a lot of pride ownership.
But there's like 30 or 40 employees. We have to make sure a baker wakes up at two in the morning to bake the croissants. A million different things have to go right to serve a customer and have them have a good experience. And this business is like it goes from making money one month to losing money for six months. Huge swings if one person quits, it messes up everything. Super complicated to operate.
And if we're lucky at the end of all of that, we'll maybe make 150 grand a year. Now, on the flip side, we bought a business about almost 10 years ago called weworkromoly.com, and it's very simple. It's a job board.
People pay money to post like a blue link, kind of like Craigslist. So you're hiring remote. You post on we work remotely. It would be like, you know, I'm hiring a developer for, you know, automatic or whatever. So we were when we bought that business, they were charging 199.
and it was run by the guys from base camp and they just didn't do any marketing or promotion, didn't do any SEO. So we buy the business, we pay three or four times earnings or something, which was a fair price given what it was doing. We immediately take the price from 199 to 299 because that's what all the other job boards were charging.
And we hire an SEO consultant, we start doing SEO, we start doing email marketing. That business went from doing about 400K of profit to, I think, a couple years ago, it did 4 million of EBITDA or something in that range. So these, in that business, that had two employees and one or two part-time contractors.
Right and literally like the entire team could go pens down for six months and it would still keep printing cash. And so you look at it and it's like business on harm hard mode versus business on easy mode. But the inexperienced entrepreneur would look at the bakery and go sexy right and it's like online there's bakeries to write e-commerce businesses or bakeries in my opinion.
How much of what was so for those who don't know Andrew he took his kind of his holding company took public. I think today it's trading many hundreds of millions of dollars five or six hundred million dollars. What were your earnings that you reported for last quarter or what's like the public record for your annual earnings? I think it was between 30 and 40. That's like the public number. I think.
But what's crazy is that we work remotely, would have accounted for something like 10 or 15% of this company worth hundreds of millions of dollars of your guys' earnings. That's pretty wild.
Well, and I think a lot of people forget that small things can get big, right? We grew that we took that business from 400k. We basically 10xed it and we bought that business I think for about 1.5 million, right? So it's pretty, it's pretty wild how powerful this stuff can be when you see a business where they're just not, they're myopic on something. They're not doing the best practices and often it's because they have other priorities. I mean, the base camp guys had a hundred million dollar ARR SaaS business.
The last thing they're going to be thinking about is this little pimple on their ass, this remote job board. Buying from someone like that is a great opportunity. I was talking to one of your company CEOs last night. They mentioned this profit first book, which I think is interesting. Sam, do you know about this? Everyone is talking about that. Andrew told me about it months ago. Since then, I've seen eight or nine friends bring it up. I don't know what it's about, though.
I'll give you my take and then Andrew, you, you fill in the gaps. Cause I haven't read the book, but I was like, can you just explain it to me in five seconds? And then they explained it to me in five seconds. And I was like, Oh, got it. And that makes a ton of sense. And so here's the ultra have a read the book version of the book, which is.
In a normal business, you get revenue, top line, and then you get your gross profits at a revenue minus what it took to sell those goods. And then you have all these other expenses. And then what's left is the profit at the end, so profits at the end normally. And then you take a distribution out of it. That's probably how you ran the hustle. But we take no distributions because you're just paranoid. And that's how I run my e-commerce business. And I think what the profit first mentality is you take the gross profit
He put that in your bank account. And then as you have bills to pay, you literally put it in your bank account or figuratively.
I think you literally move it. You move it into a profit bank account that you don't see. You sweep it out of the company. Got it. So you sweep it out of the company, then the company gets a bill from some vendor or some software, and then you have to go back and you have to now take money out of that pocket and pay it. And there's something psychological about when you just accept the waterfall of expenses and you're like, I guess I get what's left. You sort of leave the fat in the company versus
If I paid you out everything and then I said, hey, Sam, it's going to be eight grand to use the software or whatever, like eight grand for this. I don't want to I have to take eight grand out of my pocket and pay for this. You start to question a bunch of these expenses and it sort of forces you to get lean, even though nothing changed except for the order of operations. But does that ruin growth? Does that like, does that ruin when you see an opportunity and you want to pounce on it? Like, well, no, because you would just, you would just, you'd take that money and you'd invest it back into the company.
And at first Andrew, did I bastardize it or was that accurate description? I think you nailed it. I mean, the way to think about it is like, if you want to lose weight, you know, there's all these psychological experiments where they give people food on different sizes of plates and the bigger the plate, the more they eat because psychologically, you know, they got to get through all that food. So the idea here is smaller plate.
So yeah, if you make a hundred bucks, you immediately take away 30 and people are just forced to eat off a smaller plate and so they eat less and they're more thoughtful about expenses. But how do you do the math to figure out how much cash to leave in the bank?
Well, I think you would always say that, um, let's say that your business historically has run with a 30% net profit margin. You would always scrape out 30%. And over time, if there's excess cash, they're more profitable. You keep increasing that threshold, right? Cause you want to be running as, um, as optimal as possible. One of the weirdest things I've noticed in business is that everybody all CEOs seem to go, you know what? 25% profit. That's good.
That's what we should manage to. That's how I feel. I do that. What I've seen is that some of our businesses historically, not at all times, can operate with 80% or 90% in that profit margins. If we got a dreamer in there, if we got a CEO like me from 20 years ago, or Sean from 20 years ago, we'd be going, let's innovate, let's do all these new things, and they'd burn through all that cash.
So I think it's a way of creating discipline. Now, we haven't actually implemented this. I've gone to all the CEOs and asked them to read it. And some of them have got excited and implemented it. But I think it's a really interesting framework, especially for smaller companies. Our buddy, uh, Suley does this. So I was like, how much working because like our ecom bank balance is getting bigger. I was like, how much should I leave in there versus, uh, you know, distribute out?
Um, and he was like, I just distributed it all out. And I was like, all of it, like what about like three months of working capital? And he's like, okay, you can leave a month or two, but he's like, people act like you can't just put money back to the bank account. Like you can always put money back in the bank. Yeah, there's no penalty for this. And he's like, I think you have way better discipline when there's not this huge bank balance sitting there.
And I was like, oh, OK, I guess you're right. There is no penalty for just sending the money back into the bank account when it's needed. But you will question, is this really needed? And why is this needed? And what happened last month that is leading us to inject capital back in?
I've like yelled at Sam over text a few times about that many times conservative. I'm really conservative. I've changed though. So starting January one, we're making the change where I'm taking out a lot of the money and we're actually just putting it into like T bills into a different account to figure out what do we want to do with the money. Maybe we'll pay ourselves a little bit. I haven't paid myself anything from Hampton at the moment, but maybe we'll pay ourselves money as well.
Yeah, I'm, you've convinced me that that's the right way. And I'm good. I have to read this book. What I'm still trying to figure out is how much capital keep in the business. I don't know if I want to like do. So let's say your businesses is spending $500,000 a month in expenses. Do you just leave in like one month's expense? What's the equation for Chris? Chris and I, we used to leave two weeks expenses in the business.
No way, really. It meant that if they don't collect their AR, their accounts receivable, they go off a cliff. Now, what they don't know is they're not going to go off a cliff because tiny, the bank will just inject more capital. We're sitting on cash and so we move it in, but it creates this sense of urgency to do collections and run the business very efficiently.
So that math is basically if you're doing 12.5 million in revenue, you have 10 million in profit. You're only leaving something like 500 grand in the bank. Yeah. Yeah. So like basically payroll, payroll plus expenses for two to four weeks max.
That's wild. That's stressful, but I agree. That's the right way to do it. Well, it's not, though, because most of the time, especially in a recurring revenue business, we'll do this with, especially with SaaS businesses, because it's very predictable. We will say, okay, you always do 300k MRR, so we're going to give you two weeks of cash, because it's very predictable.
Now, once in a while, maybe once a year, they'll say, hey, can you inject 100K to help us make payroll or something like that? Or for R&D, but to go back to Sean's point, they have to validate the R&D. Whereas if the money is there, they'll just take it and do the R&D. Are you going to do this, Sean? Yeah, I'm going to change it because I am very guilty of this. When I've heard this, it was like, oh, I've heard a truth I can't unhere. And this is for bootstrap companies specifically.
because otherwise, I don't want to belabor the point, but yeah, it's so easy to just accept all your expenses as expenses that are necessary or required. It's easy to, oh, what's the difference between this much net profit per month or this much? I'm not taking it out anyways, so I don't really feel the difference. Whereas if my paycheck is less, I'm like, where's the rest of it? And then I have to give answer to that question.
I think this is such a, I look for forcing functions. And I think this is an amazing forcing function that like, initially I was ready to poo poo this book. I was like, what is this stupid idea? And then as soon as I heard it, flip flip my opinion. There's, there's a really good quote on that. I was talking to a friend about this who runs a SaaS company. I won't say who, but he has 65% net margins. And he's been running the SaaS business for 20 plus years.
Growing 20, 30% bootstrapped every year, just amazing, amazing business and great entrepreneur. And I was telling him about how we had not done this in certain businesses and how the CEOs had misallocated some of that cash.
And he looks at me and he just goes, if you ask the dinner guests, what's for dinner, they will always say steak. And I was like, oh my God, that's so true, right? It's like, why wouldn't they? You know, it's not their money. They, you know, yes, don't get me wrong, like a CEO is incentivized for a bonus, but for a CEO's bonus, they can spend $300,000 of your money. And that might only be worth $10,000 or $20,000 bonus for them. They don't care as much.
Um, you know, every dollar counts when it's you and you're the owner operator. I did the same thing when I sold my house. I was like, okay, um, I forgot we were selling it for like.
Let's say it was 2.1 and I was like, I think we could get 2.2. And the agent was like, I don't know, maybe it's 2.1. And I was like, well, I get it. You want to make the sale and move on. And I was like, you know, and I thought, oh, we're both aligned. If it's 2.2, he gets more and I get more. And I realized, well, this guy gets 3%. He gets an extra 3 grand. I get an extra 97 grand if it's 2.1. I was like, this guy doesn't give a shit about that 3 grand. You know, he's getting whatever.
You know, 3% of the 2 million anyways, this 3 grand is like not worth the time and hassle and risk of pushing a negotiation. And so I incentivized him. I was like, how about this? Let's cut a new deal. He's ready for me to like cut him down. And I go, no, for every dollar you get me above 2.1, you're going to keep 15% of it. And sure enough, and I made a map. I also had a penalty. I said,
And if you don't sell it for at least 2.1, you got to buy my wife this bag. And I was like, I don't want to take money out of this pocket, but I also want him to feel the pain. So I made it a goofy gift. I was like, you know, these like expensive slippers that like clearly are wasting fucking money. And he was like, and then literally we got down to it. We got an offer. There's around 2.12, let's say. And.
I was honestly ready to take it at that point, but he was like, he was like, it's about 2.1. I don't know. Like, you know, let's see if we can push back. He's like, I really don't want to buy that bag. So he's like, well, I'm going to for sure get it over this. He's like, let me see how far I can get it. And he's like, let me go push one more time and he pushed one more time. We got a better deal. And it was just such a simple like lesson around really understanding the incentives and not just like the like on paper incentives, but like, is this enough to move the needle for this person to behave differently or not?
I think it's so crazy. The more that I go through working with other people in business, I realize that everything comes down to incentives. And if you just think about the incentive, you'll see the exact behavior that they're going to have. I did the same thing when I was selling a house.
Chris had an interesting point. He was making stink bids on houses. If you look at a million-dollar house, he would go and he'd bid $650 or $700, and he'd do that 10 or 20 times. The realtor was pushing back over and over and over again. They'll never accept that. There's no point. Think about it. The realtor's got to go. They've got to spend 30 to 40 minutes writing out the offer, send it. For them, they're going, there's 5% chance.
Totally worth it for Chris, but not for the realtor, and they're only going to get one commission. And so Chris started saying, hey, look, for every offer you send, I'm going to pay you $1,000. Immediately the guy's totally down to do the stink beds. But before that, he's going, oh, you're going to get a bad reputation in the market. You're going to offend everyone. Don't do it. It's so funny.
I don't know if this is public, so Sean will have to verify because he's closer to this person. But we've got buddies that if you're like, I've been with them in LA when we were there doing like an event or when they're visiting New York, you'll be like, hey, what are you doing today? I'm like, oh, I'm going to go see these three apartments or these three houses that I'm looking at. And I was like, you're looking to move. He's like, no, I just tour these constantly. And I put lowball offers on all of them. And every once in a while, someone will take the bait and I get a screaming deal.
Is that right, Sean? Is that what they do? That's right. That's right. And they just are doing this constantly. And they do the exact same thing. Has any of those stink beds ever worked? Yeah. I mean, dude, it's just like some people like bargain shopping at Ross to find that hidden gem that's in the basket that they know is worth more. Some people like to go to garage sales. And then if you're just a little bit richer, you do the same thing on the level of houses. Essentially, you're like, oh, good. If I can load all these houses, touring houses is also pretty fun. And yeah, they've picked up a couple of assets.
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We have a mutual friend, all of us, and he buys companies, and he was telling me what his funnel was. He basically said, I think they own 18 companies. He said that they looked at 1,000 companies, and I think they met with hundreds, many, many hundreds, and then he said they did LOIs for like 200 of them, and only 15 or 18 or something like that closed. And I didn't realize, Andrew, how much, all right, when I think of like a holding company or whatever you're doing,
I think of it this way mostly because you give off this vibe, which I think you mean to do it on purpose, but I don't think it's the reality, which is like, oh, I just sit back and everyone does the work. And maybe they're doing a lot of the work running the companies, but what I've learned about buying companies, and I think Sean's learning this too, because I know he's meeting with a lot of people.
It is a sales job and you are hitting the phones and you're creating a funnel and that funnel still has like a 3% conversion rate. So in order to buy three companies got to talk to 100 people, I didn't realize how sales oriented this whole thing was that you guys are doing.
Well, for us, I wouldn't say it is. I would say in the early days, it was for sure. But we've realized that cold outreach is not the way to go. We would much rather go and have a public presence and a reputation and have people actually seek us out and say, hey, I want to sell you my company. I want to connect with you. I don't want to be some random private equity firm that's like
Hey, let me tell you about us and do the dog and pony show and stuff. You're still doing marketing. So instead of doing sales, you're doing marketing. The funnel still exists. Yeah, totally. And I did not realize that. Have you noticed that, Sean, while you're trying to buy stuff?
Yeah, I mean, we just started this process, let's say a year ago, very much inspired by you, Andrew, of like, hey, this is a wonderful way to basically like own businesses without having to create them from scratch, gives a good win to the person who's selling them. We will buy minority, which I don't know if you guys always do, but like we will also buy minority of them, minority stake in them.
But the thing that's, yeah, Sam, you're absolutely right. It's obviously like you have to sort through so many just to find something worth buying. And then even when you find something worth buying, it doesn't mean the deal is going to happen. Even when you think a deal is going to happen, it doesn't mean a deal closes. And so you end up with this like tiny, tiny funnel and you have to be okay with it. Hey, we might do one deal this year or no deals this year.
It's so different than entrepreneurship where it's all about action, it's all about features, it's all about more customers, more, more, more, more, and actually less, less is almost the name of the game when it comes to being very selective and picking the right asset. The hard part, I think, is a lot of people over invest in building that funnel, and they have a lot of conversations. And what I've done is when someone emails me and they say, hey, I want to sell you my business, I'll say, okay, hey, I want to make sure I don't waste any of your time. And so tell me these three things.
So it'll be like, okay, who runs the business? Is that you? Do you want to stay or go? And then what are your earnings? And then after that, once I have that info, I say, okay, we would probably pay about X. And if they say, let's talk, then I know I should spend the time and talk. But I think a lot of people will actually have three or four conversations and slow roll.
And I'm like, I'm like via email. I want to send the first offer. I want them to say, yes, that's interesting. And then I'll spend time on it. And what I used to do is I would spend all this time getting to know people and unboxing the business only to realize that their expectations were insane. And we would waste a ton of time. And just like with them.
bidding on real estate or anything else. We throw out LOIs constantly. I have no qualms about that. They're not binding documents. We'll send someone an offer. And there's something about, if I read an email and I say, hey, I'll offer you $2 million for your business, I don't think people take it as seriously as when there's a formal document laying it out, hey, on April 30th, you will get $2 million in this exact structure. This is what we commit to. People take it seriously. So we send them out all the time.
So I've never told this story, I don't think publicly, but Sean, about four or six years ago, the hustle was two or three years old. I was down on the dump. So I was feeling really bad about myself. I was feeling bad about the business. And I told this person that I was not feeling great. And they said,
You know, have you thought about selling it? I would really be interested in buying it. And this guy, I was like, oh, maybe he goes, look, let's just hang out and meet, come up to where I am and fly up here. And I was like, OK, maybe. And he goes, yeah, yeah, I'm going to send the jet. I'm going to send you a jet. And I was like, what do you mean a jet? Like, I get like, I'm going to fly private. Like, yeah, I'm sending the jet.
So I take all the, this is right when TikTok came out. I remember one of the first TikToks was me on this jet. It was like, I was like, I can't believe this. I go to the private executive airport, my first time ever doing that. I get on the plane. I'm in my own jet. I have got the Wall Street Journal sitting there and they offer me like champagne and all this stuff. I'm like, this is the craziest thing. I can't believe this. I was in heaven. I meet with the guy and I'm wooed. I'm so floored by this. And I'm like, days away from being like, yeah, I'm willing to do something. Then thankfully I snap out of the mood and I'm like,
It's okay, I can keep going. But that, my friends, is how I met Andrew Wilkinson in real life. He was the one who set me the jet. He set me a jet, and he totally whided died to me. I was such a redneck. He goes, I lived in San Francisco. He goes, oh, I'm in Vancouver. I was like, I got to go to New York, though, and I don't want to have to, like, I guess I'll fly to New York, and then you could send the jet, and we'll just bolt right up. And I was thinking Vancouver was Toronto. I didn't, I thought Vancouver was next to New York. I didn't even know where it was. He goes, dude, Vancouver's right by San Francisco. It's only to be two or three hours.
But he flew me up there and I don't know if you owned a bakery at the time. You took me to a bakery and you guys totally tried to like want to die me. That's how I met Andrew. I was like head over heels just because he sent this jet. It worked.
You know, that's actually the only time I've ever done that. I think you are so full of shit. No, I'm 100%. I've picked up friends and we've done that kind of stuff before. Like if we're having an event, we've flown people in, but I've only ever done that for you. That's the one time. And I think it was because you said you were afraid of flying or there's totally worked. It totally worked. I'm afraid of flying commercial.
If only there was some other option. I was thinking about, I was thinking a lot about newspapers. I was like, Oh, Sam, you've built like the modern version of the newspaper. You've got something really incredible. I think your deal with HubSpot, though, is better than what we would have paid. Well, and it was like, we got to the numbers and we would have been cheaper than HubSpot.
Well, and it was like, I think a two years difference. I remember, I went to, I even, I was supposed to get married on a Friday or Saturday and you wanted to meet me on a Tuesday. And I was like, sir, do you think I could swing this? This guy's going to fly me private. I got to do this. Well, you know, I'll be, I'll miss maybe one of the events. I have to do this. And it was like, so that was in 2020. And so we ended up selling a little bit later. So it worked out for everyone, but that's how I met you. I will say one of the things I've learned from you, Andrew, is
You are a master networker. And normally networking is like this, it's like this cowboy you don't want to get, you know, but, but you're actually great at it. And obviously networking is valuable. People would love to have a great network and meet cool people and have excuses to do things together. And I've seen you kind of throw your weight around in that area. And this might be like asking Michael Jordan, like, you know, how do you shoot a jump shot or how do you jump so high? You know, like it's like,
They can't really explain. It's not conscious or that they don't really know how to explain it. But I've seen you do this with like.
you want to meet somebody who's really interesting and you'll find a good excuse to get connected with them or even how we met. You listened to the podcast and then you were like, hey, I'd love to meet you. Let's do a call. You really took the time to do something that you didn't otherwise have to do. That's how we met. We had a great conversation and then that led to us hanging out a little bit more.
I've seen you do this with pretty influential people. I've seen you bring people up to Canada where you're at, the sort of home court advantage type of thing. Do you have, if I was to say, how do you do it? And by the way, when I was having dinner with the CEO of one of your companies, they said the same thing. They go, nobody's better than Andrew when it comes to building an awesome network. Who'd you meet, by the way? Zach, he lives like a minute away from me. So what's your first date routine for meeting all these people and building a network?
Well, it totally depends. I mean, I am. So here's an example. So in 2016, I was reading a profile on Dan Gilbert. Sean, Sam, I think both of you guys know who he is. He's the quick and loans rocket mortgage guy. And it was really cool. It was all about how he'd taken his entire fortune and basically was trying to rebuild the city of Detroit.
I thought it was really cool. You see all these guys who get super rich, and then they put their money into mutual funds. I think that's incredibly boring. This guy's trying to rebuild the city. He's buying skyscrapers. He's starting all these businesses. I just emailed him. I cold emailed him at 1 in the morning, and I said, hey, here's three bullets about me.
And I thought about what is he interested in? And so I mentioned that I own that bakery. I mentioned I'm passionate about my city. I mentioned I bootstrapped my business, tried to find a few points of similarity and said, I would love to meet you anytime, anywhere. If you're going to be in a random city and you know, somewhere in Delaware, I will fly to you. Just tell me when we could meet. And I got an email response back like 20 minutes later saying, sure.
and we ended up meeting up in Detroit, and he was amazing. We spent an afternoon together, gave me a tour of the city, got to know a whole bunch of people on this team, and it was awesome. So I will shoot shots like that when I see someone that I'm interested in, but there's certain people that are inaccessible. I wanted to meet Bill Ackman. I've been reading about him for years, been following, watching every YouTube video, listening to every interview.
First, I was like, okay, he's an investor in Chipotle. Maybe we could redesign, I own all these agencies. Maybe we could redesign the Chipotle website. Maybe we could do an app. I email him and I say, hey, I'm a shareholder in your public company. I've got this amazing design agency. I'd love to help in any way I can.
And he intros me to like one of the board members. So I was like, damn it, you know, like I just got handed off. But he replied to the email though. That's good. I mean, he replied to the email. Yeah, I basically just forwarded somebody. But I was like, okay, I know his email. Like there's something will happen here and I just have to wait for it. And then I saw this charity lunch go up. And basically every year he auctions off a lunch.
And this year, this was in 2017. He was having a terrible down year. He got divorced. He had the Herbalife stuff. He invested in Valiant Pharmaceutical. Everyone was kind of like shitting on him. He was being very quiet. And so there weren't as many bids as usual to do this. And so I ended up bidding $57,000 to go have lunch with him.
And my bet was I had no, I had no expectation there'd be any business to do because he's a hedge fund manager. I'm a tech investor, but I knew he'd be like an interesting person to meet. And so I went and we ended up connecting. And then at the end of the lunch, he kind of pulled me aside and he's like, Hey, I like you. If you ever want to do a deal together, let me know. And so years later, we ended up buying a business and he invested with us.
Just like a piece of paper says, do you like me back? Yes, or no? Like step on my foot twice. Yeah. Well, see, that's what I'm talking about. That's amazing. You do the same thing with Charlie Munger and Buffett, right? You did the charity lunch. You bought the charity lunch. Is that right? No, no. So that was a friend, just a, that was totally random. That was my friend Andrew Marks, who, um,
He knew charlie personally and he said hey i'm putting together a dinner and then through that i started sending charlie letters i knew that charlie is not someone you communicate verbally with he likes he likes to talk a lot and so and you can't communicate with him that way you got to write a letter so chris and i started writing letters. But yeah i don't know i like people.
I'm very extra. What do you say in these letters? I would just say like, Hey, before the dinner, I said, Hey, here's who we are. This is the business. This is what we do. And he, you know, throughout the dinner, knew who we were as a result. And then we started asking for his opinions and talking about different ways we could help him with stuff. I think like the fundamental principle is be of value to other people and then also say yes to interesting people. If someone can, if someone appears to be interesting, I will have lunch with them.
Did he reply to the letters? He would just call us. Then we'd call him. He'll communicate to you verbally, but you have to write to him if you want him to remember anything. That's amazing. Sounds like a book. Like my pen pal Charlie, you got to save all the letters in the back and forth.
Totally. I think it's great to see you know like I would say there's like two takeaways for you. One is like I feel like you check your ego really well like you are humble about wanting to meet these people and you're open about wanting to meet these people and you're not like.
You're not like above just shooting a shot and saying, hey, you know, I think you're great. Here's what we do that might be relevant for you and helpful for you. You know, we'll love to connect. I think the other thing is you're willing to spend money. You're willing to hop on the flight. You're willing to buy the charity thing. You're willing to be a part of their program that they're launching because you know, they care about that right now. And I think people are pretty.
Everybody sort of understands that like having a valuable network is valuable, but very few people are willing to invest because it's not a clear like dollars in dollars out thing. And that's one thing I've picked up from you. You got to be really careful about it though, because so about 12, 13 years ago, I remember when I was first starting my company, I would watch Ted Talks back when they were like really early. And I would always go, Oh my God, I want to be in this room. Like who are these people? It's like Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates and, you know, all these amazing people.
And so probably like 13, 14 years ago, I started going to TED Global and I started at that kind of baby event, the junior one, the only one I could get into. And then I slowly worked my way into going to the main event because I met Chris Anderson who ran TED and I pitched him on doing a TED app. And so I designed the TED app. I used that to get into the main one. And then I ended up meeting all these interesting people. And so that was an example where
I belonged, but I was like the baby. I was like the kid who's like, you know, people would ruffle my hair. Oh, isn't that cute? This 23 year old with a, you know, cracking voice runs a company. Um, but I kind of belong. So I think that's a great strategy sometimes, but this year I went to the Oscars and I went to the Vanity Fair after party. And that was an example of something where I'm like, I should not be here and you do not want that experience, right? That's until that story. Tell that story.
So yeah, so it's really random. So I was at a conference about a year ago, and I sat across from this guy, and I asked him about his startup. And usually when you're at these conferences, they're like, oh, I own a B2B software company for doing HR or something. And this guy said something that really caught my attention. He goes,
I run a startup that helps people convert money into an interesting life. And I was like, whoa, okay, what is this? And so here's this company called Miria, M-Y-R-I-A. And the idea is basically they deep dive with you on
Um, you know, what do you care about? What are you excited about? What do you want your life to look like? So they kind of like paint out a blueprint like in two years, you know, do you want to be? Um, what kind of people do you want to be hanging out with? Uh, what do you aspire to get involved with? You know, what are your passions? What do you want to do with your money? And then they help you figure that out. And so I did it. I signed up and they interviewed me and I said, I love movies. And they said, well, do you want to go to the Oscars?
And I was like, I've never contemplated that, but I was like, you know what? That sounds like a fun experience. I think spending money on funny experiences like that is worth it. And so we go, me and my girlfriend go down. They set up like a personal stylist. We buy like ridiculously expensive clothes and tuxedos and, you know, I get like a $500 haircut, like just silly, silly stuff.
And it's kind of cool. We're in the actual Oscar event, and we keep seeing famous people, and it's great people watching and stuff. But after that, we go to the Vanity Fair after party. And I don't know if you guys know, but the Vanity Fair after party is this super exclusive event where literally everybody is famous. If there's five people there,
four of them are B or A-list celebrities. And the one that you don't recognize is probably like a super famous director or producer or something. So I'm standing at the bar and like to my right is John Hamm chatting it up with Jeff Bezos. You know, I see this guy checking out my girlfriend and I realized it's Andrew Garfield, like very weird. I can hear like Seth Rogen laughing behind me, Rihanna struts in like it's just pinch me like the weirdest thing in the world.
And then there's me, my girlfriend, and over and over again, every person that walks by us looks us up and down, looks a bit excited, looks us up and down, realizes we're not famous and then immediately turns on their heel. And we're just like, you know, this is kind of weird. We don't belong here. And I start making conversation with people. I'm, you know, I'm very social. I start trying to chit chat with people.
And as soon as I said, oh, I'm not in the film industry, I'm in tech, people would just immediately glaze over and start looking over my shoulder, like did not care, could not care last, right? And, you know, it was, I kind of gave up at a certain point. I just kind of was like, all right, let's just people watch or whatever. But I realized that I'm really used to being in rooms where like, obviously I'm not famous, but I have like respect.
Even if I'm at a dental conference, I can probably chat with someone and be like, oh, you're the business guy at the dentist clinic or whatever, we can talk business. But I realized I had no shared language for these people. And it's just not fun. You want to be in a room where you actually have value.
Imagine like I was a web designer and I'm like, I want to be an investor. I want to meet Bill Ackman. If I have no value to him or I'm not interested in him, I should not meet him. You have to wait until you're interesting. And ironically, since I went to the Oscars, we ended up buying Letterbox, which is a social network. It's like the largest social network for film buffs. Now, if I go back to the same party, I'm sure people would be like, oh, cool, right? But it's interesting.
You had a great phrase you said. You said, I realized that you want to earn the room that you're in. And I thought that was like, because I didn't know at first, like, what's the takeaway of the story? Is it just like, you know, I don't know, sometimes you go to these parties, you feel uncomfortable, but you're actually right about that. You do want to, you don't want to buy your way into a room. You want to earn your way into a room. And I do think that that's a, that's a great takeaway.
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This is a very well done site. Is this company going to be something legit and big? They went through Y Combinator. It's a couple episodes ago too. I think it's a really, really cool idea. And I think the idea, like, do you ever go to a city and you're like, shit, you know, we didn't plan. Like I remember me and my girlfriend went to Tokyo and we kind of went last minute and we ended up eating bad food. We didn't really like see the best of the city. We just hadn't planned it. And so it was just so wasted.
And it's one of those instances where I wish I had something like this. It's like the key to the city where you're like, hey, I'm in Tokyo. I want to go to all the coolest stuff. You know all my tastes curate something for me. Or like Chris wanted to go to F1 and he doesn't know anyone at F1. He doesn't know how it works. He wanted to go last minute. These guys got him like, I think he met Lewis Hamilton. He went in the pit. You know, stuff like that is like pretty cool.
But yeah, it would be interesting to see because they raised venture. We actually invested in their, um, their angel round immediately because I was like, this is such a funny idea, but, um, I don't know if it'll be venture scale. We'll see.
They have a competitor that I looked at and I was poking around the website. They say you have to spend $80,000 a month in order to make it be worth it. So on average, a million dollars a year to make these. I think it's 25 grand and then they take a cut of everything you do. So if you spend $100,000, I think they would take a 15% fee or something on that.
There's another service I just got invited to, and my friend, so he tells me about it, and it's basically last minute super high-end reservations at any restaurant you want to eat at in like New York, London, and Miami. And I'm like, oh, cool, you should invite me. And he's like, no, you don't get it. If you don't use this invite, I lose access. And the guy who invited me loses access, which I think is like genius. So it's like, forget what it's called, but basically,
If I invite Sean, you have to use it within 30 days, otherwise I lose my access. And if Sam invited me, he loses it too. There's some little trend I've noticed, which is people as they get more successful or notable or whatever, the number of times they hear no and their life goes way down. And I've actually noticed that there's a whole business in just the business of no for people that no longer hear no. And what this means is twofold. One is,
they still run into some things that they don't know how to, they can't, like their powers are useless here. It's like, that's sold out. What do you want me to do? And so these guys with Mira have created a business around, we eliminate the last few nos of your life. And I've noticed other people like this kind of, hey, if you don't use this, I get kicked out. It's like, I don't get kicked out of anything nowadays, right? Like I'm paying the fees, why would they kick me out? But there's a whole business around, give people something to lose who never hear or know anymore. They never get rejected anymore. And it's like,
give them some rejection, give them some way that they have some risk because it makes them sort of like feel like something matters when everything is an easy mode for them at that. So I've been on the waitlist to go to Peter. Do you guys know who Peter Atia is? Super famous doctor. I've been on the waitlist there for like three years. His private practice, do you mean? Private practice, which is like, you know, I think he only has 50 patients. It's like getting Huberman or someone to be your doctor. Yeah.
It's super expensive. And so I pay, I pay like this absurd amount of money upfront and they do this thing where they psychologically test you before they allow you to become a patient. And so I go through this test and Peter calls me and he goes, Andrew, there was something concerning in your personality test.
I'm worried that you won't have good follow through. Will you do what I say? Will you execute on the plan? And I'm like, Peter, no, like you got it all wrong. Like I pay attention to my diet. Like I track everything. I wear a glucose monitor. Like you don't have to worry about me. And he goes, okay, cool. And so, you know, I've been working with them. And last month I pull them aside and I'm like, Peter, look,
be honest with me, did I actually have like something in my psychological test? And he goes, you did. I was like, is that even a real test? And he's like, yeah, that is, right? So I actually did flag something, but I was thinking, what a great strategy because I'm like the dream patient. Now I'm like terrified of getting booted out because of this thing he said. And I think doing something like that, you're right, pushing someone away creates this desire to be a good customer. Has it been worth it? Is it him being your doctor?
Well, I think it's a lot of money, obviously, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars. But think about it this way, if you're gaining five years of life or 10 years of life, what is that worth? And there's been quite a few things. I have an amazing doctor, a primary doctor that I go to.
who I love and he's amazing, but Atia, they have like a neurologist, a cardiologist, exercise physiologist who works with you. So it's this team of people and they caught a bunch of issues with cholesterol and other stuff that I may not have caught otherwise. So I mean, I think it's worth it, but for a normal person, is that a good use of money? No, I would say that's a crazy use of money. I went to your primary doctor. You're like, Doc, I love you.
It's been great 20 years. Yeah, we have the time. I'm Angelina Jolie now and we have a thing going to.
We're now in an open doctor relationship. It's really, it's one of those things I used to think you could only have one lawyer. Like I had one lawyer and then I'd feel like I was cheating on my lawyer if I used other lawyers. Then I realized like, no, you have lawyers for different things or whatever. But yeah, I have now I've got a polyamorous doctor relationship. Let's do you have this idea of be the particle on the whale. What does that mean?
Yeah, so if you think about one of the biggest costs in most businesses, it's marketing. So if you think about it, it's like 15% to 30% of most businesses is just getting people to know you exist and getting sales. So if you can own a business that doesn't have to market itself,
then you're golden. You can run a super, super profitable business. So let's say that with marketing, you run at 15% cut marketing, you could run at 45, 50, 60%. So for example, let's say that you're a fitness influencer. So like, you think about like Derek from more plates, more dates. So he sells
He supplements and energy drinks, and he's got this shampoo for hair loss. He's got a great business because he is free marketing. He just talks about the product on his podcast, his YouTube, his Instagram, and he gets free sales, right? So it would be an, as an e-commerce business, if he was paying you a part of those customers, it'd be a crappy business, but he's got free marketing, right? Now the problem is most of us don't have access to that. Most of us are not influencers.
But anyone can do that in a different way by being a barnacle on a whale. So here's the story of how I kind of stumbled into this. So I was at a conference about 12 years ago. At the time, I met Harley and Toby from Shopify. Shopify was this tiny little startup. They were bootstrapped. They were like 15 people. And they said, hey, we really like your design work. Would you design some themes for us? But there's a catch. This won't be client work. We're not going to pay you.
We want you to list them in our marketplace. So the idea is like when people sign up for Shopify, they wanted people to be able to select a theme and pay like $49 to $250 to do that. And I started making $5,000 a month, $10,000 a month as these themes sold. And I was like, hey, this is really cool. Like I'm not having to promote it. I don't have to think about marketing or SEO or anything.
people, they send all the traffic to their marketplace. And so we started building more and more themes and we ended up spitting out that business. But what I didn't realize was that in the theme marketplace, there was only so many squares and it took time to build the themes and it took time for them to get approved.
And so I started owning more and more squares. So let's say that in the early days, if you were to choose a theme, there's a 50% chance that it was one of ours. So we had like saturation early in this marketplace that was very small when we joined it. But then as Shopify grew, I mean, you guys know what happened. They go public. They start pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into marketing. I get free marketing.
I get to be the little barnacle on the whale and keep growing. And it got to the point where that business was big enough that we ended up taking that public at a $260 million valuation a couple years ago. So it's an incredible strategy. Now, I think Shopify is hard because you're late. The marketplace already exists. It takes a lot of time to get approved. That might not be the place to go, where you might want to look is
like Discord or Adapar or any kind of software ecosystem that's not super saturated. If you can go be a barnacle on a whale, you can make a ton of money. I totally agree. I have a business that's cooking up. That's like this. I'll tell you later offline because I can't announce it yet. But totally agree with this strategy. I think it's amazing. You invested. So you said it went public at 260 million.
How much did you invest to get there? Sounds like it was kind of some free labor to get the themes going, but like how much capital did it take for you to get going because you were early? $20,000 maybe. So that's incredible.
And didn't you set you sold that business up for 15 million? Or did you sell it for 10 and bought it back for 15? There's like a story where you sold it and then bought it back, right? Yeah. So basically started for 20k, sold it for about 7 million. And then I ended up buying it back from the guys who bought it for 25 million. And then about a year later, we took a public for 260 million.
So talk about that. Like, did you sell it? Like, did you regret selling it or what, why sell it in the first place? Was that a mistake? And then psychologically, how'd you get yourself to buy it back for three times as much? Yeah, like Sam, I was like in this kind of like existential crisis. I was super burnt out. I've been running. So I had that business. I had Metalab. I had two SaaS companies. I had an e-commerce business. I was running all of them, kind of running around like a chicken with my head cut off.
And finally, I hit a wall and I was feeling really depressed to talk to a friend. He said, Hey, why don't you sell one? And where you were you liquid at that point? Like, were you financially secure?
No, no, I was liquid in that we had a lot of cash flow, but the problem was I'd be borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, right? So I have at any given time, I'd have a highly profitable business and then I have a startup and the startup would burn all the profits. So I didn't have a nice house like, you know, I was okay, but I always felt like I was going to go broke. And so getting that cash influx was amazing. So I sell the business.
Suddenly, I'm sitting on millions of dollars and feeling very secure. And the first thing I do is I go, okay, now that I've got all this money, I got to learn how to invest it. And so I pick up a book about Warren Buffett. And I start reading about this idea of competitive advantage in moats and what a good business looks like. And as I'm reading, I'm going, oh my God, I just sold the business that has all these qualities. What the hell was I thinking?
And I was still on the board. So the nice thing was I helped them choose the CEO, this amazing guy named Ben Moore. And I just kept watching. And eventually the guys who we sold it to, they were fatigued. They had kind of transitioned to doing something different. And so they wanted to sell the business. And so I just stepped on their foot. I said, hey, if you guys want to sell, we'll do a deal. And so we did. And then we did a bunch of M&A and packaged it up and took it public.
That's insane. The 20K you invested was the initial amount, but then you bought it back for 25. You guys bought a bunch of other Shopify plugins and apps. I think our total amount, if you look at it from that perspective, our total amount of investment was about 36 million. We started it for 20K, sold it for seven, bought it back for 25, did $10 million or so of M&A, and then took a public. We optimized the business and grew it quite a bit over that year.
Yeah, that's awesome. That's a, that's a, that's a good insight. I mean, I remember seeing like the press release for Pixel Union. And I remember you talking about it, but I didn't know that you actually had to buy it back for more than you sold it for. He has five acts basically. It's insane. Um, Sean, what do you want to go from here? Let's do the, the life philosophy. So you said, um, people always suffer in silence. What does this mean?
Yeah, it's something Chris and I've noticed. So we have this real culture of autonomy at Tiny. So we always say that when we hire a CEO, we leave them alone. And there's certain people who really love that. So for example, often founders who sell their company to us, when a founder sells their company to us and keeps running it,
Often, they sold because they wanted to buy out a co-founder or they wanted to buy out their VCs and they wanted to operate the business profitably. They're saying, look, I've got this great business. I know what I'm doing. I want an investor who's going to leave me alone. I just want to buy out these guys. I want to buy out a co-founder or something.
Usually those guys, they just want to be left alone and we say, great. Talk to us if you need anything and, you know, sail off into the sunset and run your business. That works fine. But often when we hire a CEO, they're used to having somebody who oversees them.
So like a really active board or before they were in like some big corporation and there's constantly someone checking in. And so they associate check-ins with everything is okay. And we don't do that. We literally throw people in the pool and we say, okay, go and swim, do whatever you need to do. And.
And so often, and because there's so many companies, there's 40 companies now in tiny, there's always someone we forgot about that we're not checking in on. We're not texting. They've just fallen off our radar or we think they're okay. And so we look at their numbers and they seem to be good. We assume everything is fine. And so we just say, you know, they're not contacting us. Let's leave them alone. Well, so often we found that people will fester in silence. They will actually assume that.
Um, here I am. I'm doing this great job for them. And they won't even do me the honor of picking up the phone or checking in or, um, you know, whatever it is. And, and it's this. I always, I remember about 10 years ago, I was complaining. I was, um, I was hurt somebody. I'd sent someone, uh, an emotional email and they didn't respond. And my friend says, do you know what Hanlon's razor is? And basically the idea is it's, um,
Never attribute to malice. What can otherwise be explained by ignorance or stupidity, right? So never assume negative intent, but everybody assumes negative intent. You know, we all know what it's like to send an email that's really important to us and the person doesn't respond for three or four days. You assume that they're going, you know, fuck this person or I'm going to ice them out in reality. They're busy. They've got kids. They're doing their email. They're behind whatever it is.
I've just observed this fact. I don't know what to do about it, but people will always assume silence equals malice. Then you have this other one that says people don't change. You first said people always suffer. People suffer in silence and people don't change. You're getting a little pessimistic on us.
But I agree with you. There's this author called Robert Greene. He's got 40 laws of power and he has this other book called Human Nature. And he's like, why should you study human nature? Because very rarely do people change. It's the same stuff over and over and over again. And then when you look at their individual habits, whatever they've done in the past, they're going to just assume it's going to happen again and again and again in the future.
That's one of the best books I've ever read, The Laws of Human Nature by Robert Green. I just got the audiobook and I just keep listening to it every year. It's amazing. I've just seen this over and over again. I find that you rarely hire someone and let's say like, you know, I love to hire people based on scrappiness.
Will they figure things out? Will they learn? Do they have high pace? I've never heard someone who doesn't have high pace and then coached them into having high pace, right? People either do or they don't. And the only thing I've seen where people change is it's kind of like addiction. You kind of have to hit rock bottom, right? So if
You're kind of an asshole and you talk. You interrupt people all the time and you always talk about yourself. Maybe you stop having any friends or you have an intervention. Your friends have an intervention with you. Maybe at that point you hit rock bottom and you go, I need to change. I have a problem. But most people generally continue on their track that they're on. And I don't know. I see this all the time with people I work with.
And especially people will not change their ideas so if you, let's say a CEO comes to me and they say I've got I think the best way for us to grow is SEO. And I say oh well let's think about that what about xyz opportunity I think we should focus on PPC marketing or have you thought about changing the product in this way.
They will actually double down. When I challenge their idea, they will double down and they will keep, they will now defend the idea. And as soon as they defend the idea, they will commit and they will be consistent. What is it called commitment and consistency bias, right? Now they will double down on that. So I've just realized like trying to change people as impossible. And at the end of the day, we're all like, um, people are like elephants and you're just the rider, you know, you just kind of go where the elephant's going to go and hope for the best.
You see a big, a poor guy on the side of the street, begging for change. You just say, change comes from within my brother. Change comes from within. I completely agree with the people that change. I had a thing in my life where at 22 or 24, I forget.
It was like, oh, this is rock bottom. And there was a distinct moment where I'm like, I'm just going to change that trajectory, just a few degrees. And if I just keep going, it's going to make a massive impact. But there's really only, I remember, I think two times in my life where I'm like, oh, that's going to change. And it's happened. But then everything else, it rarely changes. It's very hard to break any type of habit or human nature characteristic.
I think I would disagree with that. The only thing I would disagree with is I would just say, instead of the phrase being people don't change, I would say assume people don't change as a reminder to myself because the problem is you're like,
If you assume that people are going to change because you're being hopeful and you're, you're going to make a bunch of bad decisions because you're going to be baking and change when change is quite rare. And so it's not that they don't change. It's that you should not be assuming that they will change is the, the trap that you want to avoid. It's like when you get married, there's that classic saying like, you know, don't try and change the person that you're with. Um, and I think it's like it'd be pleasantly surprised. Like it has happened for sure, but it's, it's really a fool's errand to try and go and change a person.
and also sort of like ads, people are like, oh, ads, ads don't work on me. It's like, okay, everybody thinks ads don't work on them. Everybody thinks they're not average. I think, you know, in the same way, it's like, I think we think that other people don't change, but if I separately had asked you, you know, like, hey, are you the same guy you were with, you know, the last 20 years? Like, no, I've learned so much, I've evolved, I've just matured, I've changed so much. And when we think other people don't change, and I think this,
I guess I'm a little more optimistic about the change. Although my sister has a funny phrase about this, she goes, people say that people don't change. They do. They get worse. And I think that that's more of the how to protect your downside mentality as you assume that people are not going to change or they're going to dig in even further into their current set of patterns. But of course, there's so many outliers that I think you can only make an assumption, not a rule.
Andrew, it was awesome being able to catch up with you. I'm happy things are going well. You said a few things here. I hope the listener does this, but I actually have a notepad here that I take down notes for everything that we're writing. This profit first thing and how much money leaving the bank. I have a note here. I'm like, shit, all right. I actually have to go and actually do that.
Moyes said something a few times ago, and so did Patrick Campbell. We had Patrick Campbell on from Profitwell on, and I still have his notes here, and I had a meeting with my company right afterwards. I was like, here's what Patrick Campbell said. I just did a pod with him. We got to do this, this and this is another one of those episodes where you've actually given me things that I'm actually, I got to go and run and tell my company right now. This angel loves that CEO who comes in with a whole new life approach every three days because they listen to a podcast.
Like if I was at a company, I'd be like, hey, dude, you're not allowed to listen to podcasts anymore or go to these dinners. Because every time you come back, everything's changing. That is an annoying person. There's a good way to deliver it though. It's amazing how just a lack of awareness can change the results of a business, right? Like as soon as I stop, I remember I used to obsessively look at my credit card statement. As soon as I stopped looking because I got too busy,
I started spending so much on stupid SaaS crap or whatever. And I think just building those processes into your company can make such a big difference. Like it literally is those, Sam, you described that thing of, you know, if you were a plane taking off from New York, you changed three degrees. And that was the difference between ending up in Seattle versus Tijuana. I think that same thing is true in a company.
Yeah, and I think that this thing might change the trajectory of a bunch of things that I'm doing. Thanks for doing this, and we appreciate it. Thanks for coming on, man. Yeah, that was awesome, guys. All right, that's the pod.
