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    About this Episode

    Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with historian and author Niall Ferguson. They discuss the historical and deeply mythological precedent of world-ending narratives, how the global doomsday ethos abdicates local responsibility while empowering the elite class, the out-of-control gigantism plaguing our administrative states today, and how we might strive to deal with genuine tragedy morally, religiously, and with humility.

     

    Niall Ferguson is a Scottish-American historian, author, columnist, TV presenter, and academic. He is the Milbank Family Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University, as well as a senior fellow at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard University. Ferguson has written many books, such as “Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World,” “Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire,” “The Square and the Tower,” and most recently, “Doom: The Politics of Catastrophe,” which has been shortlisted for the Lionel Gelber prize.

     

     

    - Links -

     

    For Niall Ferguson:

     

    Website https://www.niallferguson.com/

     

    Doom (Book) https://www.amazon.com/Doom-Politics-Catastrophe-Niall-Ferguson/dp/0593297377

     

    On X https://twitter.com/nfergus?lang=en

     

    On Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@niallferguson5684/videos

     

    🔑 Key Takeaways

    • Our fascination with the end of the world arises from our awareness of mortality, and understanding endings can provide solace by placing our individual deaths within a larger context.
    • Our fascination with grand-scale disasters can distract us from addressing smaller-scale disasters and the importance of political and collective efforts to prevent and handle catastrophes.
    • Human beings have a natural inclination towards chaos and adventure, prioritize perception over solving real-world problems, and face consequences for societal corruption and lack of preparation for natural disasters.
    • Our understanding of and response to modern challenges are influenced by pre-modern experiences, and it's important to critically assess scientific premises to effectively address disasters and avoid misguided beliefs.
    • Misguided policies, excessive bureaucracy, and a disconnect from reality undermine governments' ability to handle disasters effectively. Caution and evaluation are needed before implementing drastic measures or increasing state powers. Beware of totalitarianism.
    • Totalitarianism must be avoided in the 21st century, and rational thinking should prevail over a controlling state. We must distance ourselves from post-Christian societies and acknowledge the randomness of negative events, as believing in moral superiority can lead to cruelty.
    • Embracing humility and recognizing our potential fallibility can help us avoid disastrous outcomes caused by our overexpansive vision and desire to display moral virtue.
    • Decision-making in matters of power and responsibility can be difficult, with choices often between evils. Leaders must navigate through these decisions with no good options.
    • True leadership involves making difficult decisions and acting in the best interest of others without expecting recognition, relying instead on a sense of duty and what is morally right.

    📝 Podcast Summary

    Exploring the fascination with the end of the world.

    Throughout history, humans have been fascinated by the idea of the end of the world. This fascination stems from our awareness of our own mortality and the inevitability of death. We have witnessed destruction and dissolution in various forms, whether through the death of loved ones or the collapse of buildings. This understanding of endings leads us to infer that everything will eventually come to an end. The concept of the end of the world is not only consoling but also exciting to us in a cinematic and dramatic way. While religions offer the promise of a glorious paradise after the end, the idea of the end itself provides solace by framing our individual deaths within a larger context.

    The allure of apocalypse and dystopia in popular culture and society.

    Humans are drawn to the concept of apocalypse and dystopia because they find it more exciting than the idea of ultimate peace and heaven. This is evident in the popularity of movies like the Terminator series and the fascination with science fiction depicting the end of the world. However, it is important to be skeptical of stories about the end of the world, as secular movements often embrace religious ideas about the impending apocalypse. While we focus on these grand-scale catastrophes, we often overlook smaller-scale disasters and fail to effectively handle them. Disasters, whether natural or manmade, are politically determined, highlighting the need for better political and collective efforts to prevent and handle catastrophes.

    The Complexity of Human Nature and its Effects on Society

    Human beings have a natural inclination towards chaos and adventure. Even in a socialist utopia where all needs are met, people would disrupt the harmony simply to create excitement. This desire for novelty and challenge is deeply rooted in our consciousness. Additionally, individuals tend to prioritize being perceived as virtuous rather than taking responsibility for real-world problems that they could solve. They engage in self-dramatizing posturing instead of addressing practical issues. Moreover, the connection between natural disaster and corruption is explored. The collapse of a corrupt state can invite chaos in the form of natural calamities. Lack of preparation and societal corruption are intertwined, ultimately leading to the manifestation of chaos. This dichotomy between a tyrant ruler and the occurrence of natural disasters has been a recurring theme throughout history. Finally, the idea of atonement through austere behavior emerges in both ancient and contemporary contexts, fueled by fears of impending doom.

    The influence of pre-modern experiences on modern challenges and the need for critical assessment of scientific premises.

    Our pre-modern experiences and myths still deeply influence our understanding of and response to the challenges we face in the modern world. Despite having a better understanding of scientific concepts and advancements, we seem to be regressing in our ability to handle disasters like pandemics and hurricanes. This is particularly evident in the diminished competence of the modern state when it comes to disaster management. Additionally, the prevalent apocalyptic mindset has led to a turn towards asceticism and a belief in the necessity of reducing our standard of living. However, this asceticism can sometimes become misguided, as it often fails to address the local responsibility and concrete problem-solving activities required for effective solutions. Furthermore, the invocation of "the science" in certain debates can sometimes resemble quasi-religious thinking rather than adherence to the scientific method. It is crucial to question and critically assess the true impact and effectiveness of our actions based on scientific premises.

    Flawed policy-making and administrative inefficiencies hinder disaster management.

    There are significant issues with both our approach to policy-making and the functioning of the administrative state. One problem lies in the misguided focus on asceticism and virtue signaling, which leads to policy errors like the abandonment of nuclear power and internal combustion engines. Additionally, the administrative state has grown excessively large and inefficient, intervening in numerous ways and burdened by excessive regulation. This dysfunctional approach, coupled with a decline in scientific thinking, has worsened governments' ability to handle disasters over time. The combination of an expanding and disconnected bureaucracy with a state that is too big and detached from reality creates a detrimental cycle. Furthermore, history has shown that good intentions can often lead to unintended consequences, underscoring the need for careful consideration and evaluation before undertaking drastic measures or empowering the state with excessive surveillance powers. Ultimately, totalitarianism is identified as one of the greatest dangers to be wary of in the modern era.

    The Dangers of Totalitarianism, the Need for Rationality, and the Influence of Christianity in the 21st Century

    Totalitarian regimes are the leading cause of premature death. It is crucial that we do not create new forms of totalitarianism in the 21st century, mistakenly believing that only a controlling state can prevent disaster. This argument has become even more relevant with recent advances in artificial intelligence. Additionally, we have a strong inclination to view bad events as retribution for past sins, regardless of our rational beliefs. This suggests that we cannot escape the influence of the Christian legacy unless we distance ourselves greatly from post-Christian societies. However, it is essential to recognize that the universe is not inherently moral. Randomness and power laws govern many negative occurrences, making them difficult to predict and explaining that cancer and other illnesses can strike without any moral relevance. Lastly, a cautionary note is that those who believe they are part of a morally superior "elect" often commit acts of cruelty, highlighting the dangers of such thinking.

    The dangers of pride, overreaching, and the importance of humility in avoiding catastrophic consequences.

    Pride and overreaching can lead to catastrophic consequences. Jordan Peterson suggests that our overexpansive vision of our competence and the desire to parade our moral virtue often motivates us to take on more than we can handle. This constant overreach can result in systemic collapse at different scales. However, Niall Ferguson offers a different perspective, asserting that it is often people with a strong sense of morality who overreach. He emphasizes the importance of humility and being aware of the unpredictable nature of complex systems. Regardless, both Peterson and Ferguson agree that embracing a sense of humility and recognizing our potential fallibility can help us avoid the worst outcomes of our actions.

    The Challenges of Decision-Making under Uncertainty

    Decision-making under uncertainty is a challenging task, especially when it comes to matters of power and responsibility. Oppenheimer's mistake, as highlighted by Niall Ferguson, was his flirtation with communism, which compromised his scientific judgment and undermined his credibility. However, it was crucial for Oppenheimer to develop the nuclear bomb to end World War II and prevent a large-scale invasion that would cost countless American soldiers' lives. This highlights the asymmetry of decision-making, where preemptive action carries a high cost and no real gratitude, while inaction seems safer but can lead to disaster. Ultimately, most choices in the realm of power are between evils, and leaders must navigate through difficult decisions with no good options.

    The Unappreciated Role of Leaders

    Leaders should not expect public acclaim or rewards for doing the right thing. This is because preventive action and acting in the best interest of the nation often go unnoticed and unappreciated. Leaders, like Churchill, who made difficult decisions and averted disasters, were not necessarily rewarded or beloved by the public. Instead, they had to reconcile themselves to the possibility of failure and ignominy. The motivation to act should not come from seeking status, power, or reputation, but from a deeper sense of duty and what is ultimately right. This parallel between leadership and the Christian concept of self-sacrifice without hope of public acclaim is a thought-provoking observation.

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    2024 tour details can be found here https://jordanbpeterson.com/events  

     

    Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com/  

     

     

    For Tor Nørretranders:

     

    The User Illusion:

    https://www.amazon.com/User-Illusion-Cutting-Consciousness-Penguin/dp/0140230122

     

    The Generous Man:

    https://www.amazon.com/Generous-Man-Helping-Others-Sexiest/dp/B005SNMU4I

     

    Wild food and agriculture:

    https://madfeed.co/video/from-wild-to-tame-and-back-again/

    https://madfeed.co/video/we-are-here-because-we-have-appetite/

    https://madfeed.co/video/whos-got-the-guts/

     

    Website https://www.tor.dk/

     

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