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    DocsWithDisabilities Research and Resource Rounds

    This mini-cast is an off-shoot of the DocsWithDisabilities Podcast, and will provide the audience with an overview of the literature and resources relevant to disability inclusion in health professions education reviewing critical commentaries and research articles in 15 minutes or less.
    enLisa Meeks, PhD17 Episodes

    Episodes (17)

    Collection III. Episode 17: ‘Being on Both Sides’: Canadian Medical Students’ Experiences With Disability, the Hidden Curriculum, and Professional Identity Construction.”

    Collection III. Episode 17: ‘Being on Both Sides’: Canadian Medical Students’ Experiences With Disability, the Hidden Curriculum, and Professional Identity Construction.”

    Collection III: Disability in health sciences: the need for and benefits of inclusion

    This collection features studies and testimonials that  examine the current state of disability representation among health sciences students and professionals and that demonstrate how the presence of disabled healthcare practitioners and trainees benefits both patients and clinicians/trainees.

    Key works in this emerging literature are gathered in this cluster that includes qualitative studies, the results of quantitative data analyses, and personal testimonials.



    Title of Featured Article: Being on Both Sides’: Canadian Medical Students’ Experiences With Disability, the Hidden Curriculum, and Professional Identity Construction

    Collection III: Disability in health sciences: the need for and benefits of inclusion

    Authors: Erene Stergiopoulos, Oshan Fernando, and Maria Athina Martimianakis

     Article Link: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29794527/

    Episode Link:  https://bit.ly/DWDI_RR_17

     

    Description: Stergiopoulos’, Fernando’s, and Martimianakis’ research article investigates how medical discourses shape the conceptualizations of the prototypical “good medical student” and “good patient” roles as featuring mutually exclusive characteristics. They explore how disabled medical students’ experiences during training and professional identity construction are shaped and hold complexity as students navigate positions in both these roles—as both patients and medical trainees. The authors drew on critical discourse analysis to analyze text and interviews, developing codes informed by academic work on the Hidden Curriculum and professional identity construction. Results show that the dominant portrayals of the “good student” and “good patient” roles, robustly and vividly constructed by medical discourse, are juxtaposing and mutually exclusive.

     

    Producer: Zoey Martin Lockhart, Lisa Meeks

    Audio Engineer: Jacob Feeman

    Transcript

    Release: Feb 2024

     

    Keywords:

    Medical students; Patient role; Wellbeing; Medical School; Disability Inclusion; Patient Care

    DSM; Psychiatric Illness; Mental Illness; Mental Health; Disclosure; Ableism; Medical Education 

    Learning Disabilities; Medical culture; Culture of Medicine; Diversity in Medicine; Disability Education

     

    Collection III. Episode 16. “Ethical and Public Health Considerations for Integrating Physicians with Mental Disability into the Physician Workforce”

    Collection III. Episode 16. “Ethical and Public Health Considerations for Integrating Physicians with Mental Disability into the Physician Workforce”

    Title: Ethical and Public Health Considerations for Integrating Physicians with Mental Disability into the Physician Workforce. 

    Collection III: Disability in health sciences: the need for and benefits of inclusion

    Authors: Amalia Sweet, Omar Sultan Haque, and Michael Ashley Stein

    Description: 

    Sweet, Haque, and Stein’s article explores questions of and argues for increased support and inclusion of physicians with mental disability. Grounding their work in the framework of intersectional social justice, the authors examine medical cultural factors, safety questions, and logistics. They conclude that greater representation of and support for mental disability in medicine will increase the quality and culture of medicine. The article outlines unfair, unnecessary, and discriminatory barriers currently faced by physicians and trainees with disability, to show inclusion and engaged support of physicians and trainees with mental disability is an issue of intersectional social justice. Efforts to increase the diversity of the medical workforce often focus on race and gender, skipping over disability as a dimension of diversity. When disability is considered, the extra stigma and incorrect assumptions surrounding mental disability can mean that people with these disabilities are overlooked or even specifically excluded. Meanwhile, the authors demonstrate that medical education, medical culture, and patient care would benefit from greater numbers of physicians with mental disability and are under-served when these people are excluded from practice or not properly accommodated.

    Producer: Zoey Martin Lockhart, Lisa Meeks

    Audio Engineer: Jacob Feeman

    DOI:  https://doi.org/10.1017/jme.2023.24.

    Journal link: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-law-medicine-and-ethics/article/abs/ethical-and-public-health-considerations-for-integrating-physicians-with-mental-disability-into-the-physician-workforce/B0F4C6CE019E648081F59AD928A15EF2

    Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UPF9WaE9qrQmrmywfd465jZHGd8n1uER3AXlL6BdSdw/edit?usp=sharing

     

    Release: Dec 2023

     

    Keywords:

    Mental Disability

    Disability Inclusion

    Patient Care

    DSM

    Psychiatric Illness

    Mental Illness

    Mental Health

    Neurodevelopmental Disability

    Neurodevelopmental Disorders

    Learning Disabilities

    Medical culture

    Culture of Medicine

    Diversity in Medicine

    Disclosure

    Professionalism

    Competency

    Clinicians

    Clients

    Ableism

    Disability Education

    Disability Attitudes

    Disability Competency

    Healthcare Training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

     

    Collection III. Episode 15. “‘Yourself in all your forms’: A grounded theory exploration of identity safety in medical students”

    Collection III. Episode 15. “‘Yourself in all your forms’: A grounded theory exploration of identity safety in medical students”

    Description: Episode 15 discusses “‘Yourself in all your forms’: A grounded theory exploration of identity safety in medical students” (Bullock et al. 2023). Bullock and his colleagues develop a theory of identity safety through careful analysis of 16 in-depth interviews with 3rd and 4th medical students with a diverse range of identities and experiences. The article identifies and describes key dimensions of identity threat, threat mitigation, and identity safety. Three factors contributing to identity safety that emerged from the team’s analysis: Agency to serve, upholding personhood, and a sense of belonging. Identity safety manifested as students sharing a particular minoritized identity with their attending physician, wearing a particular item or hair style, presenting themselves in a particular way, or feeling respected as unique individuals by both their peers and supervisors. When experiencing identity safety, students felt empowered to draw on their own unique experiential knowledge grounded in their particular identities when treating a patient.

    Authors: Justin Bullock, Javeed Sukhera, Amira del Pino-Jones, Timothy G. Dyster, Jonathan S. Ilgen, Tai M. Lockspeiser, Pim W. Teunissen, and Karen E. Hauer.

    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1111/medu.15174


    Journal link

    Transcript

     

    Collection III. Episode 14. “Professionalism and Disabled Clinicians: The Client’s Perspective.”

    Collection III. Episode 14. “Professionalism and Disabled Clinicians: The Client’s Perspective.”

    Title of Featured Article: Professionalism and Disabled Clinicians: The Client’s Perspective.

    Collection III: Disability in health sciences: the need for and benefits of inclusion

    Authors: Tal Jarus, Roberta Bezati, Sacha Trivett, Michael Lee, Laura Yvonne Bulk, Alfiya Battalova, Yael Mayer, Susan Murphy, Patricia Gerber, and Donna Drynan.

    Description: Episode 14 is the second of two sister-episodes exploring perceptions of disabled clinicians from a range of specialties. The article featured, "Professionalism and Disabled Clinicians: The Client’s Perspective" (2020) analyzes how disabled clients and caregivers of people with disabilities responded to the prospect of being treated by a disabled clinician. Drawing on interviews and focus-group discussions, the authors find that clients held positive perceptions of and were affirmative about receiving care from disabled clinicians. Interviewees felt that these providers might be more “client-centered,” could act as “role models,” 

    Client interviewees also suggested that power dynamics between clients and clinicians (usually weighted towards the healthcare provider) might be evenly balanced in the case of disabled clinicians, not because disability lowered the social status of the provider but because the clinicians' additional experiential knowledge of navigating the world with disability would imbue the clinical encounter with enhanced rapport and understanding of barriers (on the part of the physicians). Interviewees felt that disclosure of disability by a provider fell into the realm of appropriate and professional interactions with clients–and could even enhance provider-patient relationships. A consensus also emerged that disabled clinicians would pick fields and work conditions that suited their strengths; clients felt safe being treated by clinicians with disabilities.

    Producer: Zoey Martin-Lockhart and Lisa Meeks

    Sound: Jacob Feeman

    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1080/09687599.2019.1669436

    Journal link: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09687599.2019.1669436?journalCode=cdso20

    Transcript

    Release: August 2023

    Keywords:

    Disclosure

    Professionalism

    Competency

    Clinicians

    Clients

    Ableism

    Disability Education

    Disability Attitudes

    Disability Competency

    Healthcare Training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

    Collection III. Episode 13. "I Can Understand Where They’re Coming From’: How Clinicians’ Disability Experiences Shape Their Interaction With Clients"

    Collection III. Episode 13. "I Can Understand Where They’re Coming From’: How Clinicians’ Disability Experiences Shape Their Interaction With Clients"

    Title of Featured Article: ‘I Can Understand Where They’re Coming From’: How Clinicians’ Disability Experiences Shape Their Interaction With Clients. (2020)

     

    Collection III: Disability in health sciences: the need for and benefits of inclusion

    Authors: Alfiya Battalova, Laura Bulk, Laura Nimmon, Rachelle Hole, Terry Krupa, Michael Lee, Yael Mayer, and Tal Jarus

     

    Description: This is the first of sister-episodes exploring perceptions of disabled clinicians from a range of specialties. The article featured in this episode, 13, draws on the experiences of clinicians and trainees with disabilities via analysis of qualitative interviews. The authors find that clinicians’ insider, experiential knowledge of living with disability or chronic illness—and of navigating health care as a person with disability—facilitates better care to disabled and chronically ill clients for several reasons: improved rapport; deeper listening, understanding, and empathy; and an understanding of barriers to good care that exist inside and outside of healthcare that is grounded in professional and person experience. Precise concordance of diagnosis or experience did not appear to be necessary. This paper suggests that the experiences of disability and chronic illness that motivate professional medical trainees to engage in educational disability advocacy are themselves experiences that provide professionally valuable expertise. 

     

    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1177/1049732320922193.

     

    Journal link: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1049732320922193

     

    Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ckx2wzDejugQTRFP88cGaBk4mG1yN7gW/edit

     

    Release: August 2023

     

    Keywords:

    Disclosure

    Professionalism

    Competency

    Ableism

    Disability Education

    Disability Attitudes

    Disability Competency

    Healthcare Training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

    Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SBOWRq1Kq9WiegnJMvlJMUDDuj9xOBcRsXgW7MkQRtQ/edit?usp=sharing

     

     

    Collection II. Episode 12. "ADEPT-CARE: A pilot, student-led initiative to improve care for persons with disabilities via a novel teaching tool"

    Collection II. Episode 12. "ADEPT-CARE: A pilot, student-led initiative to improve care for persons with disabilities via a novel teaching tool"

    Title: ADEPT-CARE: A pilot, student-led initiative to improve care for persons with disabilities via a novel teaching tool

    Collection II: Integrating disability into health sciences curricula: implementation, recommendations, and the need for disability content in health sciences education 

    Article: “ADEPT-CARE: A pilot, student-led initiative to improve care for persons with disabilities via a novel teaching tool.” (2023)

    Authors: Lydia Smeltz, Sandra Carpenter, Lauren Benedetto, Nora Newcomb, Dana Rubenstein, Tonya King, Christopher Lunsford, and Ami L. DeWaters. 2023.

    Description: This article describes the student-led development and piloting of a didactic tool intended to assist medical trainees’ and providers’ capability and confidence when interacting with disabled patients in clinical environments. ADEPT-CARE is a mnemonic for which each letter corresponds to a distinct dimension of clinical process or behavior that experts recommend following when interacting with disabled patients. The tool was introduced to a group of first-year medical students. While their feelings of competence in treating disabled patients did not change after a 15-minute asynchronous video training on the ADEPT-CARE protocol–possibly due to the small sample size–the student participants did endorse the utility of the protocol.

    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.dhjo.2023.101462.

    Journal link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1936657423000298

    Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ww_U_TbTpjPwaovW3E2vQTagK5E04x53/edit

    Release: June 2023

     

    Keywords:

    Disability Education

    Disability attitudes

    Disability Competency

    Healthcare training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

    Collection II. Episode 11. "Effect of Disability-Specific Education on Student Attitudes Toward People With Disabilities"

    Collection II. Episode 11. "Effect of Disability-Specific Education on Student Attitudes Toward People With Disabilities"

    Description: 

    Today we cover the 2021 article, Effect of Disability-Specific Education on Student Attitudes Toward People With Disabilities by authors: Khalid Alahmari, Kanagaraj Rengaramanujam, Ravi Shankar Reddy, Paul Silvian Samuel, Irshad Ahmad, Venkata Nagaraj Kakaraparthi, and Jaya Shanker Tedla.

    This study is the first study in Saudi Arabia to look at the attitudinal effects of disability training amongst final-year health sciences students. The study also explored whether demographic variables, health sciences field, or exposure to disability had an effect on students’ attitude change—or lack thereof. The investigators found a statistically significant change in the attitude scores of students from fields that generally involve greater patient contact.

    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1177/1090198121995774.

    Transcript

    Keywords:

    Saudi Arabia

    Disability Education

    Disability attitudes

    Disability Competency

    Healthcare training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

    Collection II. Episode 10. "Using the health humanities to impart disability competencies to undergraduate medical students"

    Collection II. Episode 10. "Using the health humanities to impart disability competencies to undergraduate medical students"

     

    Article: Using the health humanities to impart disability competencies to undergraduate medical students

    Authors: Singh, Khan, Dhaliwal, Khan

    DOI: 10.1016/j.dhjo.2021.101218

     Description: 

    In episode 10 we discuss the pedagogical method and results of a pilot project that used the health humanities to teach eight disability competencies to Indian undergraduate medical students. The authors’ pioneering educational approach included disabled patient panels, forum theater (a form of Theater of the Oppressed), visual art, and a field trip to an integrated school educating disabled and non-disabled children. 

    Transcript 

    Keywords:

    Health Humanities

    Medical Humanities

    India

    MBBS

    Human rights model

    Disability Competency

    Healthcare training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

     

     

     

     

    Collection II. Episode 9. "Integrating Disability Into Health Sciences Curricula: Implementation, Recommendations, and the Need for Disability Content in Health Sciences Education."

    Collection II. Episode 9. "Integrating Disability Into Health Sciences Curricula: Implementation, Recommendations, and the Need for Disability Content in Health Sciences Education."

    In Research and Resource Rounds Episode 9, we review Improvements in Students’ Attitudes Toward People With Disabilities With or Without Semi-Structured Community-Based Interactions. 

    The article describes and presents the results of a study in which the three authors tested the effect of a baseline curriculum and of an enhanced curriculum on doctor of physical therapy students’ attitudes towards people with disabilities. Two student cohorts from the University of Texas El Paso’s doctor of physical therapy program participated in the study which measured attitudes using two common measures: first, Attitudes Toward Disabled People or ATDP-A and the Multidimensional Attitudes Scale Toward Persons with Disabilities or MAS.

    The baseline curriculum group and enhanced curriculum group both showed improvement in their attitudes, although the baseline group only showed a statistically significant improvement in attitudes towards people with disabilities on the MAS scale. Moreover, the two groups (baseline and enhanced curriculum) did not differ significantly on their pretest or posttest scores on either attitude measure.

    Article: Improvements in Students’ Attitudes Toward People With Disabilities With or Without Semi-Structured Community-Based Interactions.

    Authors: Jimenez, Pechak, Garrand

    DOI: https://doi.org/10.1097/JTE.0000000000000102

    Transcript

    Keywords:

    Physical Therapy

    Doctor of Physical Therapy

    Physical Therapy Education

    Physical Therapy Curricula

    Interdisciplinary health education

    Healthcare training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

    Collection II. Episode 8. "Integrating Disability Into Health Sciences Curriculum"

    Collection II. Episode 8. "Integrating Disability Into Health Sciences Curriculum"

    EPISODE 8

    This article shares the findings of qualitative interviews investigating university health science educators’ perspectives on and approaches to disability education at a New Zealand university. All participants reported that disability training was not a standard component of their field’s curriculum. Instead, these educators incorporated piecemeal disability content where possible. The authors identify six “perceived advantages” of fore-fronting lived experience in materials and techniques used to teach health science students about disability embodiments and care. Interviewees argued that disability training material should appear regularly in the standard 4-year curriculum, perhaps as part of cultural competency lessons that already recur throughout the 4-year program.

    Article:

    Peiris-John, Roshini, Neera R. Jain, Amy Hogan, and Shanthi Ameratunga. 2021. “Educating Health Science Students about Disability: Teachers’ Perspectives on Curricular Gaps.” Disability and Health Journal 14 (1): 100985. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.dhjo.2020.100985.

    Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QTczQW5S-oZyecgpNDJX33Bzwk0Rwga6aoJ-dyS9pvw/edit?usp=sharing

     

    Release: March 2023

     

    Keywords:

    Interdisciplinary health education

    Health curricula

    Teacher

    New Zealand

    Healthcare training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

    Collection II. Episode 7. "What Should We Teach about Disability?"

    Collection II. Episode 7. "What Should We Teach about Disability?"

    This is the first episode of our second collection, Integrating disability into health sciences curricula: implementation, recommendations, and the need for disability content in health sciences education, we cover the 2021 article, “What Should We Teach about Disability? National Consensus on Disability Competencies for Health Care Education” published in the Disability and Health Journal by Havercamp, Barnhart, Robinson, and Whalen Smith.

    The authors describe the necessity of widespread and consistent disability training across interprofessional health education, an umbrella that encompasses medicine, nursing, social work, and psychology—among other disciplines. Taking up their own imperative, the authors propose a set of competencies, sub-competencies, and principles that could act as a national standard. The article details the collaborative, multi-phase process of developing and repeatedly revising the competencies with help from expert reviewers with both lived and professional expertise in disability and its relevance in healthcare fields.

    Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TcbDgXWtWMR_TIp62a-jiZPq44FOFfaIlxrWicP_Ci4/edit?usp=sharing

    Key Words: 

    Disability competencies

    Disability standards

    Disability education

    Interdisciplinary health education

    Healthcare training

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

    Collection I. Episode 6. “COVID-19 and the Need for Disability Conscious Medical Education, Training, and Practice.”

    Collection I. Episode 6. “COVID-19 and the Need for Disability Conscious Medical Education, Training, and Practice.”

    Episode 6 of Research and Resource rounds discusses the paper, “COVID-19 and the Need for Disability Conscious Medical Education, Training, and Practice.” published in the Journal of Pediatric Rehabilitation Medicine, as part of our collection disability in the health sciences: key arguments and issues at stake, language, and history.

    Article: Doebrich, Adrienne, Marion Quirici, and Christopher Lunsford. 2020. “COVID-19 and the Need for Disability Conscious Medical Education, Training, and Practice.” Journal of Pediatric Rehabilitation Medicine 13 (3): 393–404. https://doi.org/10.3233/PRM-200763.

    Authors: Doebrich, Adrienne, Marion Quirici, and Christopher Lunsford.

    Transcript

    Keywords:

    Disability Consciousness

    Covid-19

    Medical training

    Care work

    Chronic Illness

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education



    Collection I. Episode 5. "Racialized Disablement and the Need for Conceptual Analysis of ‘Racial Health Disparities" by Desiree Valentine

    Collection I. Episode 5. "Racialized Disablement and the Need for Conceptual Analysis of ‘Racial Health Disparities" by Desiree Valentine

    Episode 5 of Research and Resource rounds discusses the paper, “Racialized disablement and the need for conceptual analysis of “racial health disparities,” published in the journal Bioethics, as part of our collection disability in the health sciences: key arguments and issues at stake, language, and history.

    Article: Racialized Disablement and the Need for Conceptual Analysis of ‘Racial Health Disparities.’

    Author: Desiree Valentine

    Link: https://doi.org/10.1111/bioe.12979.

    Transcript

    Keywords:

    Racialized Disablement

    Medical Racism

    Racial Health Disparities

    Disability terminology

    Disability studies

    Social model

    Medical model

    Health Sciences

    Medical Education

     

    Collection I. Episode 4. "Prevalence of Disability among Medical Trainees and Physicians"

    Collection I. Episode 4. "Prevalence of Disability among Medical Trainees and Physicians"

    In Episode 4 we review the prevalence of disability among individuals across the continuum of medical training and practice and data from three recently published studies that break down disability in medical school, residency, and among practicing physicians.

    Keywords: Disability Prevalence; Data, Medical Education, DocsWithDisabilities 

    Transcript

    Collection I. Episode 3. "The Evolution of Disability Language: Choosing Terms to Describe Disability" by Erin E. Andrews, Robyn M. Powell, and Kara Ayers

    Collection I. Episode 3. "The Evolution of Disability Language: Choosing Terms to Describe Disability" by Erin E. Andrews, Robyn M. Powell, and Kara Ayers

    The authors enumerate a series of models used to conceptualize disability and the terminology associated with each model. They provide in-depth explorations of person-first and identity-first language, recommend avoiding euphemisms, and argue against the language restrictions imposed by some style guides.


    Article:

    “The Evolution of Disability Language: Choosing Terms to Describe Disability” by Erin E. Andrews, Robyn M. Powell, and Kara Ayers. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.dhjo.2022.101328


    Key Words: Disability terminology, Disability language, Disability studies, Social model, Medical model, Health Sciences, Medical Education

     

    Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_oN-otcPRD2bv0CqZb4K_EFqTEHO_H5zxpZU1S6sEQ4/edit?usp=sharing

     



    Collection I. Episode 2. "Disability and the Training of Health Professionals” by Tom Shakespare, Lisa I. Iezzoni, and Nora E. Groce

    Collection I. Episode 2.  "Disability and the Training of Health Professionals” by Tom Shakespare, Lisa I. Iezzoni, and Nora E. Groce

    In Episode two we review the thought provoking commentary: “Disability and the Training of Health Professionals” by Tom Shakespare, Lisa I. Iezzoni, and Nora E. Groce (Lancet, 2009). DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(09)62050-X.

    The authors argue that equitable treatment of disabled patients is an issue of human rights that can only be achieved by improving disability education in health sciences education. They write that the topic of disability must be increased across the health sciences, from educational training to infrastructural adjustments and the representation of people with disabilities among health sciences professionals and students.



    Collection I. Episode 1. "An Introduction to DWD Research and Resource Rounds"

    Collection I. Episode 1. "An Introduction to DWD Research and Resource Rounds"

    The new Research and Resource Rounds are introduced: These mini-casts will provide an overview of literature and resources relevant to disability inclusion in the health sciences. Each short episode will review critical commentaries and research articles in 15 minutes or less. The podcast presents selected literature in themed “collections” listed in the podcast.