341. Jordan Peterson Interviews Presidential Candidate Vivek Ramaswamy

    Embracing duty as a pre-condition for freedom and distinguishing between adult autonomy and the need for ordered freedom for children can create a path to an ideal structure without impinging on free will.

    enMarch 20, 2023

    About this Episode

    Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Vivek Ramaswamy discuss ESG investing, the culture wars, the upcoming US presidential election, and Vivek’s recently announced candidacy.


    Vivek is an American business leader and New York Times bestselling author of “Woke, Inc.: Inside Corporate America’s Social Justice Scam,” along with his second book, “Nation of Victims: Identity Politics, the Death of Merit, and the Path Back to Excellence.”


    Born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio, he often recounts the sage advice from his father: “If you’re going to stand out, then you might as well be outstanding.” This set the course for his life: a nationally ranked tennis player, and the valedictorian of his high school, St. Xavier. He went on to graduate summa cum laude in Biology from Harvard and received his J.D. from Yale Law School while working at a hedge fund, then started a biotech company, Roivant Sciences, where he oversaw the development of five drugs that went on to become FDA-approved.


    In 2022, he founded Strive, an Ohio-based asset management firm that directly competes with asset managers like BlackRock, State Street, Vanguard, and others, who use the money of everyday citizens to advance environmental and social agendas that many citizens and capital owners disagree with.

    🔑 Key Takeaways

    • Vivek Ramaswami believes the current political landscape is 40 years behind and addresses the merger of state and corporate power. By founding Strive, he competes with companies advancing environmental and social agendas many citizens disagree with and hopes to combat cultural issues such as woke and gender radiology.
    • The ESG movement utilizes investments from regular citizens to support progressive agendas, potentially conflicting with their financial interests. Asset management firms have pledged to align with global goals but may not align with individual financial goals.
    • The ESG movement empowers investors to drive social and environmental change in corporations, promoting equity, and sustainability. Micro-decisions led to a growing need for diversity and inclusion, and through ESG, corporations can prioritize their impact.
    • The Bank of Clark offers tailored financial solutions for individuals, with FDIC-insurance. Leaders should remain level-headed during emergencies and consider addressing challenges like climate change, as seen in the emergence of the ESG movement.
    • Critics of the climate agenda argue it's more about power than climate action. Instead of solely focusing on reducing carbon emissions, methane emissions should also be addressed. The ESG movement needs to support carbon-free energy production, including nuclear energy.
    • The climate narrative has become a symbol used by those in power to protect their own interests rather than a true solution to the environmental crisis. Nuclear energy could be an effective solution, but fear of destabilizing infrastructure hinders progress.
    • Losing traditional sources of identity can lead to turning to artificial sources, but it's important to have a well-rounded identity that considers individual and group identity, tradition, and culture. Taking responsibility for one's own identity is crucial for personal growth.
    • Develop personal relationships and embrace a subsidiary hierarchy of responsibility to counter top-down tyranny. Find purpose and conviction through pursuit of excellence, avoiding artificial identities offered by the left.
    • Jordan Peterson explains how personality traits influence one's political leaning, emphasizes the importance of free speech in mediating between ideologies, and advocates for a family unit that values stability and inclusivity.
    • Ideals provide direction, but hypocrisy is inevitable. The challenge is to progress towards the ideal while being mindful of marginalized communities. Freedom to deviate from the ideal is necessary for growth.
    • Without a stable structure, it becomes difficult for fringe groups or established ideals to make their case. We must work towards rebuilding this structure by finding someone with creativity and conscientiousness and start a dialogue towards solutions.
    • Sacrifice is necessary when working towards a cohesive solution. Sacrifice becomes easier when individuals know what they are sacrificing for and when they have a strong sense of identity and purpose. Sacrifice is tied to a hierarchical identity, where individuals sacrifice for their families and communities.
    • Embracing duty as a pre-condition for freedom and distinguishing between adult autonomy and the need for ordered freedom for children can create a path to an ideal structure without impinging on free will.
    • Offering true diversity through a diversity of institutional purpose allows individuals to trade on their unique qualities and find their place in the world. Each level of order should have both order and diversity within it, with diversity serving the purpose of the institution.
    • To find a lasting sense of purpose, adopt responsibility, sacrifice, and build a supportive social network. Be self-aware, learn from failure, and avoid willful blindness. True happiness cannot be pursued through hedonism alone.
    • By practicing humility, individuals can avoid stubbornly holding onto beliefs that may lead to a crisis. Being honest and speaking without inhibition can lead to success and gain trust from others.
    • Genuine and unscripted communication is essential for effective leadership, and candidates who prioritize honesty and authenticity may offer a refreshing change from traditional campaigns.
    • When appearing on media, speak conversationally instead of sticking to scripted talking points to come off as authentic. Avoid projecting a false image of superiority and stick to the truth for the best chance at success.
    • Success in politics and academia comes from staying true to your beliefs and maintaining control of your message, regardless of the outcome. Surround yourself with like-minded individuals to stay on track.
    • In order to succeed in any endeavor, it's important to be honest and accountable in professional relationships. Regular check-ins and conversations will help ensure that goals and ideals are being upheld.

    📝 Podcast Summary

    Business Leader Vivek Ramaswami Runs for US President to Define National Identity in Combatting Cultural Issues

    Vivek Ramaswami, a business leader and author, is running for presidency in the United States with a mission to define a national identity and answer what it means to be American in 2023. Ramaswami believes that the current political landscape is behind by 40 years and is addressing the merger of state power and corporate power that shackle the human spirit by creating a cultural revival in America. He founded Strive, an asset management firm that competes with companies like BlackRock, State Street, and Vanguard, who use the money of everyday citizens to advance environmental and social agendas that many citizens and capital owners disagree with. By running for presidency, he hopes to successfully answer the question of national identity and combat the cultural issues in America, including woke and gender radiology.

    Understanding the ESG Movement and Its Impact on Your Investments

    Vivek Ramaswamy and Jordan Peterson discuss the ESG movement, which stands for Environmental, Social, and Governance Factors, and its impact on everyday citizens' investments. The ESG movement uses private power, capital markets, and everyday citizens' money to invest in companies and advance progressive agendas that most people do not agree with or do not know were being advanced with their own money. Asset management firms like BlackRock or State Street or Vanguard have signed a pledge to align all of their underlying companies with the goals of the Paris Climate Accords, modern diversity, equity, and inclusion standards, but this may not align with most people's financial interests.

    The ESG Movement - Using Money to Drive Corporate Change

    The ESG movement is about using money to drive change in corporations towards goals like racial equity and environmental sustainability. The movement gained momentum after the 2008 financial crisis, which led to the rise of the "woke left" and Wall Street's response to it. Corporations began to use their power and money to showcase diversity and inclusion, but they also wanted to maintain their corporate power. This emergent reality wasn't a conspiracy theory but a result of many micro-decisions. Through the ESG movement, investors can influence corporations to prioritize their social and environmental impact, ultimately creating a more equitable and sustainable society.

    Personalized financial services for your unique needs

    The Bank of Clark offers personalized financial services, including banking, lending, and wealth management. They design services specifically for the unique needs of individual customers. Contact them by phone, in-person, or online to discover what they can do for you. It's important to remember that they are FDIC-insured. The rise of passive index funds and Donald Trump's presidency played a role in the emergence of the ESG movement, which calls on business leaders to address existential challenges like global climate change when political leaders do not act. While there is debate about the severity of climate change and the appropriate response, it is important for leaders to maintain a calm head during emergencies and avoid becoming tyrannical.

    The Link Between Climate Critiques, Power and Dominion

    The critiques of the climate agenda - psychological and technical - are deeply linked, suggesting that the agenda has nothing to do with the climate and more to do with power and dominion. Those who claim to care about reducing carbon emissions should be focusing on methane emissions, which are far worse than carbon dioxide and largely come from places like Russia and China. However, the ESG movement, which claims to be at the forefront of the climate agenda, is hostile towards nuclear energy, which is the best-known form of carbon-free energy production. This suggests that the agenda is more about delivering equity between the West, particularly America, and the rest of the world.

    The Climate Narrative as a Quasi-Religious Institution and the Failure of Current Policies

    The conversation discusses how the climate narrative has become a quasi-religious institution that fills a psychological need for purpose and identity. However, the policies being promoted by advocates of the climate religion are not only failing but are actually counterproductive. The conversation highlights how nuclear energy could solve the carbon emissions problem overnight, but it is opposed due to the fear of destabilizing the entire industrial infrastructure. Ultimately, the conversation suggests that society is searching for sources of identity and pride, and the climate narrative has become a symbol used by those in power to protect their own interests rather than a true solution to the environmental crisis.

    The Importance of Identity and Individual Responsibility

    Vivek Ramaswamy and Jordan Peterson discuss the consequences of losing sources of identity such as family, God, and hard work. When these sources disappear, people often turn to artificial sources of identity, such as racial or gender identity. The radical left offers a one-size-fits-all solution where individuals identify solely with their group identity, which takes responsibility off the individual. Peterson argues that a robust identity is nested and built on a proper hierarchy that considers individual and group identity, as well as tradition and culture. It is essential for individuals to identify with something beyond themselves, whether it is a tribe or the planet, to catalyze their adult identity.

    The Importance of Social Integration and a New American Dream

    Jordan Peterson, a psychologist, emphasizes the importance of social integration and a subsidiary hierarchy of responsibility in minimizing the need for top-down tyranny. This hierarchy moves from personal relationships to a global community. He explains that psychological health is not an internal process but an emergent property of one's harmony with the subsidiary levels. Vivek Ramaswamy, a political leader, adds that the current void in identity and purpose is being filled by an artificial set of identities offered by the left. He advocates for the creation of a new American dream, grounded in the pursuit of excellence, to restore purpose and conviction in citizenship.

    The Relationship between Political Allegiance and Personality Traits, Free Speech, and a Compelling Vision for the Conservative Side.

    In this section, Jordan Peterson talks about the relationship between political allegiance and personality traits, suggesting that those who are high in conscientiousness and low in openness tend to lean towards the conservative front. He also highlights the importance of free speech in mediating between the conservative and radical left ideologies. Additionally, Peterson discusses the need for a compelling vision on the conservative side, focusing on the importance of stable, long-term, monogamous, heterosexual, child-centered couples as an ideal for a family unit. However, he acknowledges that not everyone will fit this ideal and stresses the importance of understanding and supporting those at the margins.

    Balancing Ideals and Reality

    The conversation explores the concept of ideals and how they relate to reality. Hypocrisy is seen as evidence of ideals and individuals and even nations fall short of their ideals. The left's challenge of the system on behalf of marginalized communities is viewed positively, however, the problem arises when this challenge becomes the new system. The idea is highlighted that the fringe defines itself in relation to the ideal, but it also has the freedom of being at the margin. The conversation emphasizes the importance of preserving the ideal while allowing necessary space for deviation from it so that everyone can move forward.

    The Danger of Destroying the Ideal Structure

    The conversation discusses the danger of destroying the ideal structure, which results in the erosion of the fringe groups' existence. This loss of structure makes it harder for people to make a case for their ideals, whether they align with the fringe or espouse the established ideal. The absence of a conservative movement to maintain this structure is a failure that has led to its demise. To rebuild this structure, we need someone with the rare combination of creativity and conscientiousness, as it is a challenging task. In conclusion, we must take a holistic approach and start a conversation to find solutions.

    The Importance of Sacrifice and Identity in Creating a Fulfilling Life

    Sacrifice and identity is important for creating a meaningful and fulfilling life. Sacrifice is necessary in any action because choosing to do one thing sacrifices the other options. Sacrifice becomes more important when working towards a coherent and communal medium to long-term solution. Sacrificing the whims of childhood leads to an integrated maturity that unifies individuals across time and provides for social integration. Sacrifice is intimately tied to a hierarchical identity, where individuals sacrifice for their families, communities, and beyond. Sacrifice becomes easier when individuals know what they are sacrificing for and when they have a strong sense of identity and purpose.

    The Missing Shade of Red in the Conservative Movement

    The missing shade of red in the conservative movement is the revival of duty and embracing duty as a pre-condition for freedom. Sacrifices such as entering marriage and having children are worth making if we know what's worth sacrificing for. However, there is a distinction between freedom and autonomy amongst adults versus in children. While adults should have the freedom to make their own choices without coercion, children should be treated differently and should not be allowed to use addictive social media products as preteens. Ordered freedom, like a game with voluntary rules, can create a path to an ideal structure without impinging on free will.

    Diversity as a Solution to Marginalization in the Free Market

    A free market solution to marginalization is to offer true diversity, allowing individuals to trade on their unique qualities and find their place in the world. The speakers advocate for a diversity of institutional purpose, allowing different companies and institutions to have their own distinctive purpose, rather than adhering to a common goal. This approach gives meaning to diversity and recognizes that each level of order, from couples to families to institutions, should have both order and diversity within it. Diversity should serve the purpose of the institution, and transparency about what types of diversity are desired is important.

    Building a Meaningful Life through Voluntary Responsibility and Social Structure.

    In order to have a sustaining meaning in life, one must adopt voluntary responsibility, make sacrifices, and build a hierarchy of social structure around them, including family, friends, and community. This sustaining meaning will help individuals through times of pain and terror, and cannot come solely from the pursuit of happiness through hedonism. Additionally, one must be awake, alert, and humble in order to continually assess their shortcomings and rectify them. In times of failure, it is important to think and calculate a new trajectory, and willful blindness should be avoided.

    The Importance of Humility in Preventing Crisis and Embracing Truth

    The practice of humility can help individuals make micro repairs instead of stubbornly holding on to their beliefs until a crisis emerges and magnifies. In the story of Moses, the Pharaoh's failure to respond to crises resulted in the devastation of his entire society. The relationship between failure and a return to abiding and sustaining values depends on how "stiff-necked" individuals are. If they are stubborn enough, they may face an apocalypse. Politicians often lose their voice when they enter the political arena, and they turn to communication teams to help them craft their message. However, the opportunity to speak without inhibition and say what they truly think has emerged, and people are desperate for truth. Trump's success was due in part to his willingness to speak his mind honestly.

    Vivek Ramaswamy on Honesty and Authenticity in Political Leadership

    In a conversation with Jordan Peterson, Vivek Ramaswamy discusses his unconventional candidacy for president and his commitment to honesty and authenticity. He believes that one of his advantages is his ability to use new media without the burden of a political machine or pre-written speeches. Ramaswamy emphasizes the importance of speaking from the heart, learning with the public, and avoiding the suffocating forces of conventional politics. Peterson agrees, stating that prepared speeches lack the faith and dynamic response that true leadership requires. In short, Ramaswamy's commitment to honesty and authenticity may offer a refreshing change from the scripted and polished campaigns of traditional politicians.

    The Importance of Authenticity in Media Appearances

    When appearing on media, sticking to pre-planned talking points can make one seem artificial and lifeless, and that a more effective approach is to read a few sentences, make a comment on them, and repeat. This method allows for spontaneity and results in having talking points at hand. The speakers also discuss the importance of staying true to oneself and not projecting an image of an omniscient leader, as this can be both ineffective and unauthentic. Additionally, they note that success cannot be guaranteed, but abiding in the truth is psychologically the only pathway to it.

    The Importance of Staying True to Your Message in Politics and Academia

    Psychologically speaking, staying true to your own voice and being diligent in that can lead to a successful candidacy, regardless of the outcome of an election. Crafting a campaign solely to win the presidency without substance can lead to a defeat even if the candidate numerically wins the election. This is true in both academia and politics. It is crucial to maintain control over your message and avoid compromising your beliefs over time to maintain success. Having people around you who reflect your message can keep you on the proper track. Ultimately, focusing on staying true to your message and holding control over your beliefs and actions is key to success.

    The Importance of Honesty and Accountability in Professional Relationships

    Honesty and accountability is important in any professional relationship. Jordan Peterson and Vivek Ramaswamy agree to check in every few months and provide updates on their progress. They also encourage each other to call out any deviations from their goals and ideals, as it keeps them honest. They acknowledge that it's important to have difficult and fair conversations, and encourage their audience to continue listening. Overall, honesty and accountability are critical for success in any endeavor, including politics.

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    On X https://twitter.com/pardybruce?lang=en

    Rights Probe: https://www.rightsprobe.org/

    For Konstantin Kisin:

    TRIGGERnometry Podcast    / @triggerpod  

    Substack https://konstantinkisin.substack.com/

    Twitter https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin?r...

    441. TBD | Tor Nørretranders

    441. TBD | Tor Nørretranders

    Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with author and speaker Tor Nørretranders. They discuss the entropy of emotion, the nature of pointlessness, the over-civilization of societal structures, how relationships shape perception, and why play might be the antithesis to tyranny.


    Tor Nørretranders is an independent author, thinker and speaker based in Denmark, serving an international audience. He has published over 30 books on topics ranging from society to human consciousness.



    - Links -


    2024 tour details can be found here https://jordanbpeterson.com/events  


    Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com/  



    For Tor Nørretranders:


    The User Illusion:



    The Generous Man:



    Wild food and agriculture:





    Website https://www.tor.dk/


    Article “We Are Waking Up” : https://www.tor.dk/2019/05/06/we-are-waking-up/