Podcast Summary
The Cautionary Tale of a Therapist's Concern for Gender Affirming Therapy: It's important for therapists to carefully consider the developmental impact of gender dysphoria on young children before pursuing specialized areas of sex therapy. Consider potential ethical concerns and conflicts before moving forward.
Therapist Sarah Stockton was involved in creating assessments for transgender youth and educating professionals on gender affirming care. However, after 15 years of practice, she became concerned about the developmental impact on children being introduced to gender dysphoria at a young age. She withdrew from the specialty and focused on other areas of sex therapy. Her interest in the topic was re-ignited when she came across Matt Walsh's Dr. Phil interview discussing gender dysphoria in children, which led her to participate in his documentary. Stockton's background serves as a cautionary tale for therapists who are conflicted about the ethics of gender affirming therapy.
The Complexity of Gender Dysphoria: A Nuanced Understanding: Gender dysphoria is complex and manifests in different ways. Understanding the nuances and avoiding oversimplification is crucial for providing support and improving outcomes for those affected.
In this conversation between Jordan Peterson and Sara Stockton, they discuss the complexities of gender dysphoria and the importance of understanding different manifestations of it. They touch on the late onset autogynophelia type, who tend to dress up in women's clothing for essentially sexual purposes, and the separate group of children who develop body dysmorphia or gender identity issues very early. Stockton also shares a unique case of a man who had his penis amputated due to a body integrity disorder, showing the complexity of the issue. The conversation emphasizes the need for a nuanced understanding of gender dysphoria and the dangers of oversimplification.
The Complexities of Gender Dysphoria and Early Assessment: Early assessment of gender dysphoria is critical and should consider future expectations. Hormone therapy and puberty blockers may not be appropriate for all individuals, including those with a homosexual orientation. Education and awareness are important for children and their families.
The gender dysphoria issue is complex, the discussion is moralistic, politically and clinically charged. Dr. Ken Zucker's study showed that 90% of kids who have body dysmorphia issues would settle into their biological identity by age 18 or 19. He also demonstrated that the early onset gender dysphoria kids were more likely to be gay or manifested in a homosexual orientation. Hormone therapy and puberty blockers overwhelmingly target the gay population, resulting in a diametrically opposed interest of transsexual types and the gay community. An early assessment of gender dysphoria that considers six domains, including future expectations, is critical. Children need to know the implications and effects.
Challenges in Diagnosing and Treating Body Dysmorphia and Gender Dysphoria in Children: Therapists need to carefully diagnose and distinguish between children's fantasy play and genuine concerns about their identity. Standard assessments for hormone blockers are insufficient, and a minimum of one year of weekly meetings with a competent specialist is necessary for optimal diagnosis and treatment.
Therapists are facing challenges in diagnosing and treating children with body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. Children may develop body dysmorphia due to various reasons, including temperament, body mismatch, narcissistic or psychopathic parents, and unconscious prompts from parents. Autistic children might not fit in well, and they might develop early signs of gender dysphoria. Therapists need to be extremely careful in diagnosing and distinguishing children's fantasy play from genuine concerns about their identity. However, the standard assessment for hormone blockers to pause and check if children want to transition is now only three sessions, which is insufficient to sort out complex psychological issues. Therapists have to spend at least one year of weekly meetings with a competent specialist to diagnose and treat such cases optimally. Parents and children might even clutch at straws and feel that hormone blockers are the answer to all their problems without proper diagnosis and therapy.
The risks of rushing medical transition for young people: Proper assessment and diagnosis are crucial before undergoing medical gender transition. Acknowledge diverse body types and gender expressions to avoid creating unrealistic expectations. Trauma-informed care is needed for those who choose to transition. Rethink the transition process to address ethical concerns.
The podcast discussion sheds light on the consequences of rushing medical gender transition for young people without proper assessment and diagnosis. It highlights the importance of acknowledging a wide range of body types and gender expressions to avoid creating unrealistic expectations for individuals. The conversation emphasizes the need for trauma-informed care for those who choose to transition and raises concerns about the medical community's obsession with quick solutions, such as hormonal or surgical transformation. The consequences of this insufficiency, as shown through personal examples, is catastrophic and highlights ethical concerns, making it essential to rethink the transition process entirely.
The Dangers of Mandated Gender Affirmation in Therapy: Mandated gender affirmation in therapy can lead to a narrow and dangerous definition of womanhood, normalize suicide, and perpetuate the idea that the past can be altered by force. Therapists should consider all aspects of a person's identity, not just their subjective gender identity.
The push for gender affirmation in therapy has become the standard of care and even mandated in some jurisdictions, leading to a shallow and dangerous definition of womanhood based solely on sexual activity. This came about as a response to the non-existent issue of conversion therapy and has resulted in a normalization of suicide and the dangerous idea that the past can be altered by force. The concept of identity is multidimensional and not solely based on subjective whim, as the left insists. It is important for therapists to understand this and consider all aspects of a person's identity, including their relationships and ideals.
Jordan Peterson on the Importance of Acknowledging Biological Identity in Society: Identity is not just a personal choice, but also influenced by biological and physical factors. Confusing children about male and female differences could have long-term negative effects on their development. Social constructs cannot override biology.
In this segment, Jordan Peterson discusses the dangers of reducing identity to something internal and subjective. He argues that biological and physical elements of identity, such as sex and physical characteristics, cannot be overlooked. It is important for society to understand that identity is negotiated and not solely defined by the individual. Furthermore, he believes that confusing children about male and female differences is very disorienting and could be detrimental for their long-term social and personal development. The idea that social constructs can override biology is preposterous and could lead to irreversible consequences.
Clarifying the Nature of Misgendering as Bullying: Therapist Jordan Peterson recommends using different methods to accurately identify one's identity, while a mother argues against misgendering as harmful intimidation that could impact children's emotional well-being.
A mother felt concerned when her son came home with questions about misgendering in his gym class. She read the school's bullying handbook, but found no mention of misgendering as a form of bullying. When she contacted the school psychologist for clarification, the psychologist gave her pushback and demanded to know which child was being referred to. The conversation ended with the psychologist claiming that misgendering would be considered bullying based on intent, but the mother disagreed, feeling that it was unfair and could cause unnecessary emotional distress for children. As a clinician trained under the APA protocols, Jordan Peterson recommends using multiple methods of measurement, such as self-report and objective diagnostic markers, to clarify the nature of someone's identity.
The importance of reliable and valid methods in diagnosing mental illness: Self-evaluation is not enough for accurate diagnosis, and a multidimensional approach is needed to understand the nature of distress being experienced. Gender dysphoria and fluidity of gender identity must be examined carefully for accurate diagnosis and treatment.
When diagnosing mental illness, reliable and valid methods are important, and different sources of information should be considered for accuracy. Self-evaluation is just one input and does not override other information. Reliance on subjective self-evaluation is an ethical transgression in the field of mental health. The confusion surrounding gender dysphoria and the fluidity of gender identity is a concern, and a more detailed analysis is needed to understand the nature of distress being experienced. The concept of feeling like a different gender should be carefully examined and not relied upon solely for diagnosis. Overall, a multidimensional approach is needed for accurate diagnosis and treatment of mental illness.
The impact of screens on children's sexual identity: Pretend play where children experiment with opposite sex attributes is a normal part of sexual identity development, but screens may be interfering with this play and contributing to gender identity issues later in life. Transitioning early is controversial due to limited evidence on long-term mental health impacts.
Children often engage in pretend play where they experiment with and take on attributes of the opposite sex, and this is perfectly acceptable and normal. This play is a necessary component in the development of sexual identity and understanding of the opposite sex. However, the increasing influence of screens and technology is interfering with this play, and may be contributing to the emergence of gender identity issues in adolescence. It is important to recognize that there is a lack of reliable long-term follow-up studies on the mental health impacts of transitioning, despite claims by some that transitioning early is necessary to prevent mental health issues and elevated suicide risk.
The Complex Issue of Gender Dysphoria and Early Transitioning: Transitioning at an early age may not necessarily be beneficial for mental health. Psychological epidemics and social contagion can also play a role in the recent surge of gender dysphoria cases. Clinicians should be cautious about early transition and potential harm.
Psychologist Jordan Peterson discusses the complex issue of gender dysphoria and the dangers of early transitioning for children. He notes that while testosterone can have antidepressant effects, it does not necessarily mean transitioning is beneficial for mental health. Peterson also highlights the existence of psychological epidemics, which can affect puberty girls in particular. He argues that the recent explosion of gender dysphoria cases may be another example of social contagion rather than a medical condition, and clinicians should be aware of the potential harm of early transition.
Are Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Set in Stone?: While more people claim identities on the LGBT+ spectrum, their sexual behavior remains largely unchanged. Medical interventions may have unrecognized risks and challenges to understanding gender dysphoria continue.
The conversation discusses the topic of gender identity and the increasing number of young people identifying as LGBT+. However, while more people are claiming an identity on the spectrum, their actual sexual behavior has not changed significantly. This suggests that sexual orientation and gender identity are more solidly set than some believe, and it raises concerns about medical interventions aimed at changing a person's identity. Additionally, the conversation highlights the lack of understanding and potential risks associated with bottom and top surgery, breast reconstruction, and other medical interventions for gender dysphoria.
The Risks of Gender Reassignment Surgery and Transition Push: Gender reassignment surgery may result in the loss of erotic potential and expose individuals to sadistic behavior in surgical fields. Desire for profit and validation can push for gender transition, impacting children negatively & posing the risk of Munchausen by proxy syndrome with caregivers. Careful consideration is necessary.
Jordan Peterson discusses the potential negative consequences of gender reassignment surgery, highlighting the loss of erotic potential and the risk of attracting sadistic individuals to surgical fields. He also suggests that the desire for profit and a need for validation may drive some individuals towards pushing for gender transition procedures, and that this push may be impacting children in a harmful way. Additionally, Peterson notes the potential for Munchausen by proxy syndrome, where a caregiver may fabricate or cause illness in a child for personal gain or attention. These risks should be considered when making decisions about gender reassignment and the care of transgender individuals.
The Dangers of Diagnosing Children as Transgender: Parents may jump to assuming something is wrong with their child's gender identity due to societal pressures and desire for social status, leading to potential harm in rushing medical interventions. Caution is necessary.
The discussion between Jordan Peterson and Sara Stockton sheds light on the potential dangers of the trend towards diagnosing children as transgender. In some cases, parents may be looking for an easy explanation for their difficulties with their child, leading them to assume something is fundamentally wrong with their child's gender identity. This can be compounded by the desire for status and the virtue signaling that comes with being seen as incredibly progressive and compassionate. While a diagnosis may provide temporary relief, therapists and doctors should be cautious in prescribing hormones too quickly, as seen in a tragic case where a father ultimately took his life. This perfect storm of factors can lead to a psychological epidemic, and parents should be aware of the potential dangers before rushing into medical interventions.
The Dangers of Too Much Choice and Subjective Identity.: Having too many choices and an unclear sense of identity can lead to mental health issues, especially in children and young adults. Therapists should prioritize informed consent and empathetic care.
The overabundance of choices and the idea of radical subjective identity can lead to destabilization and depression, particularly in liberal white girls. Children need a proper amount of choice to prevent confusion and drowning in possibility. Similarly, too much freedom in identity can lead to confusion and mental health issues. The internet and virtual forums can exacerbate this issue, leading to dangerous trends such as human sacrifice and pathological pretend play. It is important for therapists to be empathetic, give informed consent, and consider the impact of sexual and emotional health on their clients.
Concerns about Medical Procedures and Adjunct Faculty in Universities: It's important for transgender individuals to be honest and seek second opinions and therapy before undergoing medical procedures. Academic freedom and integrity should be protected while providing the best outcomes for all individuals.
There are concerns about the safety and lifelong consequences of medical procedures such as hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery for transgender individuals, especially when started at a young age. It is important for individuals to be honest with physicians about their assigned sex and to seek second opinions and therapy before undergoing such procedures. Additionally, there is a growing issue of the exploitation of adjunct faculty members in universities, who have little job security and may be at risk of repercussions for speaking out on controversial issues. The focus should be on providing the best outcomes for transgender individuals and protecting academic freedom and integrity.
The Importance of Conversations and Neutral Therapy Approaches.: Listen actively, engage in dialogue with those who hold different beliefs, and value neutrality in therapy to better understand one another and promote healthy conversation.
In this section, Jordan Peterson discusses cancel culture and the refusal of individuals on the left to engage in dialogue with those who have differing political beliefs. He notes that this is a unique pathology and emphasizes the importance of conversations and engaging in dialogue. The conversation then shifts to the topic of affirming identity in therapy and how this requirement disturbs Peterson. He believes that therapists should neither affirm nor deny identity but rather approach therapy from a neutral perspective. Active listening and engaging in conversations is important, even with those who hold different beliefs, and the value of approaching therapy from a neutral standpoint.
Therapist Jordan Peterson's Views on Individualized Care for Improved Health and Wellbeing: Every individual's situation is unique, and therapists must individualize care to provide the most effective treatment. Clinics should not offer hormone replacement therapy and surgery without baseline psychological assessments, and individuals should carefully consider whether surgical transformation is the best option.
Therapist Jordan Peterson advocates for advocating for the best in his clients as they move towards improved health and wellbeing. However, as people vary on several temperamental dimensions, therapists must inquire into their clients' individual situations to provide appropriate and effective care, rather than offering a one-size-fits-all solution. Peterson raises concerns about clinics offering hormone replacement therapy and surgery without baseline psychological assessments, calling it "appalling almost beyond comprehension." He suggests going back to first principles to consider whether genuine surgical transformation is the best route for certain individuals or if it is a Pandora's box that should never have been opened.
The Complexity of Gender Identity: Biological sex and temperament are different, and gender identity is not a simple matter. Hormones and surgery cannot definitively change a person's gender. Approach any decision about radical changes with caution and without sufficient evidence.
The idea that hormones or surgery can definitively change a person's gender is not backed up by scientific evidence. There are differences between biological sex and temperament, but the two are not interchangeable. Even with temperamental differences, guessing a person's gender with a questionnaire can only be done with about 80-85% accuracy, leaving one in six people miscategorized. Additionally, some individuals with extreme temperamental variability may feel mismatched with their biological identity, but it is important to approach any decision about radical changes with caution and without sufficient evidence. Overall, the idea of gender identity is ill-defined and not as straightforward as society often portrays it.
Exploring Gender Identity and Transitioning with Jordan Peterson and Sara Stockton: Men and women approach gender identity and transitioning differently, with variations in sexual fantasies and submissive roles. Understanding the biological and deep differences between genders is important, and a thorough assessment should be done before considering medical intervention.
In this conversation between Jordan Peterson and Sara Stockton, they discuss the differences between men and women when it comes to gender identity and transitioning. Stockton suggests that there is a significant difference in the way men and women approach the idea of being the opposite gender, specifically in regards to sexual fantasies and submissive roles. Peterson adds that it's important not to assume a symmetry in motivation between genders, as there are biological and deep differences. They both agree that the default treatment for gender dysphoria should be leaving people alone and thorough assessment should be done before considering medical intervention.
The dangers of rushing people into a diagnosis: Clinicians must be cautious and informed, particularly when treating patients with radical therapies such as gender transition, as the impact on their lives can be long-lasting. Do your own research as a therapist.
In this conversation, Jordan Peterson and Sara Stockton discuss the dangers of rushing people into a diagnosis, especially when it comes to radical treatments like gender transition. Stockton admits to not initially questioning the ideology she was taught, but emphasizes that it's crucial for clinicians to do their own research and not blindly follow the protocol. Peterson notes that in the field of therapy, there is a larger room for malpractice as it's challenging to be an informed therapist. Clinicians should prioritize cautious and informed approaches, especially when it comes to radical treatments that can have long-lasting impacts on their patients' lives.
Jordan Peterson's Warning on Insufficiently Trained Counselors and Bureaucratic Apparatuses: Choose a counselor carefully and don't assume that being attacked is always a disadvantage. Be aware of the resurgence of lawsuits and countries rolling back on certain controversial treatments. Don't let bureaucratic apparatuses rely on victimized children for financial gain.
Jordan Peterson warns that most counsellors are insufficiently trained, and this could lead to harm for those seeking counseling. He urges people to be careful when choosing a counselor and to not invite just anyone into the intimate aspects of their life. He also mentions the resurgence of lawsuits and countries rolling back on certain controversial treatments. Additionally, he points out that many bureaucratic apparatuses are relying on an endless stream of victimized children to sustain their financial viability. Lastly, he advises those going through adversity to not automatically assume that the net consequence will be negative and that being attacked isn’t always a disadvantage.