Will RFK Jr Make America Healthy Again?

BBC sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Sarah Justin, I expect both of you have seen this very viral picture that shows Donald Trump on a plane eating an interesting choice of food with his new posse. Yeah, it's an amazing picture and it's been unavoidable for that reason. So they're on Trump Force One, Donald Trump and his son Don Jr. with RFK Jr. and Elon Musk round a table

all tucking into Big Macs and fries. I mean, it almost looks like an advert for McDonald and R.F.K. Jr. looks like he would rather eat vomit, frankly. Here's a man who has spoken out against ultra processed foods specifically against McDonald's, and he's being made to practically eat his words here on Trump Force One. It's some kind of

or loyalty test, I assume, from Donald Trump, but he does not look happy about it. And he might have passed the test on the plane, but my goodness, he is perfectly plain about what he thinks about this food. He was making the point again to the broadcaster Joe Polish last week about the experience of eating with Donald Trump. The stuff that he eats is really, like, bad.

It's not campaign food is always bad. The food that goes onto that airplane is like just poison.

It's all, you have a choice between, you don't have the choice, you're either given KFC or a big max. That's like when you're lucky and then the rest of the stuff is, I consider kind of inedible, but I'm just eating it.

And that's what we're going to be talking about today, who we're going to be talking about today. RFK Jr. The man Donald Trump has appointed to make America healthy again. Welcome to America's America's America's America's from BBC News. God spared my life for a reason.

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Hello, it's Sarah here in our Bureau in Washington. And it's Justin at home in South London. Well, it's Marianna in the actual wide headquarters in London. Justin and Marianna, you know, we've been getting loads of questions in about Trump's nominations for his cabinet positions. And of course, there's a lot of controversy swirling around several of them. And it's also a way of trying to interpret what his second term is going to be like when we look at the people that he wants to put in his cabinet.

And for very good reason, there is particular interest in RFK Jr. And what his appointment could mean, well, could mean the direction of the administration is when it comes to fact and science, but also importantly, what it could mean for the health of Americans, which is something that needs some attention. Stephen Imbelfast emailed us at americast at BBC.co.uk with lots of his thoughts. And we picked out this. He says, I've read very little and not listened to little of the election fallout and seen a few things on Twitter.

And he asked, does making America healthy again mean regulating their food industry? Reducing sugar, not selling chlorinated chicken, etc. Or is it simply vaccines and fluiride? Well, that's what a lot of Americans want to know. So that's what we will be diving into in this episode. Everything you need to know about RFK Junior and what he could mean for America.

Yeah, I've had so many messages about RFK, Junior, particularly since Donald Trump decided that he wants him to be his health secretary. And lots of people asking, well, hang on a second, what does this mean? Not least because he's been embroiled in a fair bit of controversy. So should we kind of go back to basics really for AmeriCasters and talk about who RFK is? We did that episode a while ago on BBC Sounds where we spoke about keeping up with the Kennedys and the kind of history of RFK, not least because

He is a Kennedy, and a Kennedy who has a very distinctive voice just. Yeah, a very raspy voice which comes from a particular condition that he has, and that he manages, but certainly makes him sound odd.

when he was running for president himself, which he did put a lot of people off him. But he's a much wider figure than that. And he's an extraordinary figure because he really does bring together the left and the right in American politics. If you're looking, if you think we're in a new populist age, then Donald Trump obviously is emblematic of that age. But in a sense, RFK

is as well because he is, you know, the son of Bobby Kennedy. So he is from the most important of the Democrats' central families, the kind of royal family, the Democratic Party. He is or has been an independent. He was an environmental lawyer.

And he added then to his environmental background with a load of stuff about vaccines that we sometimes use the word controversial. A better word would be simply wrong, unfactual stuff about vaccines that his critics say have led to many deaths around the world. But then he's gone on to add to that. And this is where this email is so fascinating because it's absolutely right to say that the other thing that he's really interested in, if you take the environment on the one hand,

And you take vaccines on the other, the kind of third thing that he's really interested in is the entire food industry and what he says is doing to Americans and that it is potentially something that he could actually get to groups with and which would actually have quite a big effect. Yes, he's talking about taking on both the food industry and the pharmaceutical

industry, which are not positions you normally get from Republicans. You know, those are huge, very, very important businesses in America who would expect to be left alone, normally under a Republican regime. And it could be absolutely fascinating to see

RFK Jr. taking on them as well as his positions on fluoride and vaccine and those other things. You wonder why it is that Donald Trump has picked him specifically. Trump himself, you know, is actually very, very proud of what he did with the COVID vaccine and getting that online quickly. And he's never really expressed vaccine skepticism himself, although, you know, there were

There were those points early in the pandemic when he was talking about people injecting bleach to counteract COVID and things. So he's not a stickler, shall we say, for scientific and medical evidence and fact. But I mean, the truth is, I think that he picked our FK Junior because he wanted a Kennedy in his administration. And as he was campaigning, Donald Trump, who had kind of hinted during the campaign that he would give our FK Junior a job like this, said that he was going to let him go wild with public health.

Robert F. Kennedy cares more about human beings and health and the environment than anybody. And he's going to be absolute — having him is such a great honor. I've been friends of his for a long time, and I'm going to let him go wild on health. I'm going to let him go wild on the food. I'm going to let him go wild on medicines.

Yeah, and Sarah, you mentioned before about his position on vaccines, and there's been a fair bit of concern. Certainly people getting in touch with me saying, well, hang on, what does this mean? Could he be deliberately deterring people from getting vaccines? He's someone who has previously repeated unfounded claims about links between

vaccines and autism and citing kind of discredited research and so on. But he's also remained pretty adamant that he wouldn't consider himself to be an anti-vaxxer and much more kind of falls into the vaccine skeptic camp. He was skeptical of the Covid-19 vaccine, for example, and the way that governments handled the pandemic. And I think what's interesting about him is that he often treads this line between sometimes falling over into the stuff that's not true and sometimes

not between genuine kind of questions of for example big pharmaceutical companies and the way that big farmer works in the United States which i think a lot of people both on the left and the right are interested in particularly on the left actually and then and then he also kind of

flirts with to some extent some of the more extreme conspiracy theories who regard him as a kind of figurehead they're like right we don't believe in vaccines at all he says that's not the case and you know he's not someone who is totally against vaccines but he's got questions about when they're used and so on and so forth. How that all plays out will be so interesting and I think one thing I wonder is to what extent he might be willing to

disown some of the people who, um, the more extreme anti-vaccine activists who support him and say, Oh, hang on a second. I don't think you're right about this or whether he'll continue to sort of humor them in so much as he won't put them down and say, hang on, I don't think that's right. Um, but we'll again continue to kind of tread this quite fine line between accountability for big pharmaceutical companies and then actually just saying stuff that's kind of not true about vaccines. What's really interesting about his post as the secretary for health and human services is

he doesn't get to mandate who has a vaccine and who doesn't because that's usually done at the state level as so many many things are in american government and that's true also a fluoridation in water but of course he has a huge bully pulpit from which to advise or not advise people to do things like take up and mr vaccines or anything else and it's his

anti-science attitude. I think there's worrying a huge amount of people, even if they don't know that you would do necessarily a huge amount of harm in one area or another. You've got somebody here who is prepared to espouse views that are simply not backed up by any scientific evidence and putting him in charge of something like the Department of Health in those circumstances seems to many people just quite dangerous as we go into a Trump administration where lots of people are prepared to completely ignore facts and favor their own opinion instead of evidence-based ideas.

And actually, he's come out to say, and he did this interview with NBC just after the election the next day, where he essentially kind of made clear to your points there, I mean, not that he's necessarily able to, but that his plan is not to take vaccines away. I think the issue lies more so with the attitude, perhaps he might foster than maybe some of the specific decisions. This is what he said. Are there specific vaccines that you would seek to take off the market? Oh, I can.

I'm not going to take away anybody's vaccines. I've never been an anti-vaccine. You will not take any vaccine that is currently on the market. If somebody, if vaccines are working for somebody, I'm not going to take them away. People ought to have a choice and that choice ought to be informed by the best information. So I'm going to make sure

The scientific safety studies and efficacies are out there and people can make individual assessments about whether that product is going to be good for them.

And I think that goes to the heart of why he might get through a Senate hearing. So he's got to be approved by the Senate by a committee and then by the full Senate. And a lot of people saying, I don't know what I'm saying with his background, that's unlikely to happen. Or at least it's going to be a big fight. And I think it will be a big fight. There are plenty of things he said in the past that will be held against him. But if he downplays the vaccine side of things and upplays, if that's a word, the other stuff, particularly the food stuff,

Then it is possible, isn't it, Sarah, that he gets through? It's very possible he'll get through it. I mean, there are some controversial things that would count against them in a Republican-controlled Senate, not least his very pro-chized views on abortion. But let's look at the context in which his appointment is being made. Donald Trump's really going to struggle to get his nomination for defense secretary through, and Pete Hegseth. In fact, many of his appointments are highly controversial.

If the Senate dares disapprove any of them, I think it will only be one, which means that you end up in the circumstance with somebody who, in a normal year, would be hugely controversial candidate and probably sail through the nomination process. At that stage, a lot of it comes down to what Robert Kennedy Jr. says about the behavior of food firms, and particularly on ultra-processed foods, which is something in Britain we have a considerable controversy about.

suggestions that the government ought to be clamping down on the food companies and if he goes down that road and attacks them then things like fruit loops which are made by Kelloggs and which he says have different ingredients in America to the ingredients that they have across the border in Canada. So he says that the food companies poison Americans with all sorts of dyes that Americans shouldn't have

but don't poison people in other countries because the particular products are banned. Something I would say that Kellogg say ain't the case and that lots of defenders of Froot Loops say isn't the case. But those sorts of fights, it seems to me, are interesting fights and possibly actually important fights. They're the kind of focusing on things. You only have to go round America for goodness sake, don't you? I was stuck in Chicago airport looking for sign to eat on my way back from the convention and Mike

Did you have some chicken nuggets? I mean, what were the choices? It was seven o'clock in the morning. I've had lots of chicken nuggets that I have for dreadful. I mean, absolutely ghastly options that Americans give themselves and that the food industry gives Americans as choices. And if that is a conversation that he opens up, it seems to me that the nation might say to itself, well, with this guy in spite of all the other rather crazy things, you said, maybe we're getting somewhere.

as a defender of fruit loops, joking, joking, although I do famously like unhealthy food. I do think, though, it's important to actually point out the contrast as you're highlighting there, Justin, between some of the other more controversial things, stuff that appears to be contrary to evidence that he's pushed around vaccine, say, versus then what he's saying about food and about the kind of general dietary health of Americans, which I think probably does

capture wider support. It also captures the support of wellness influencers, people who often on the left, actually, who are very supportive of the stance that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. takes when it comes to accountability for not just big pharmaceutical companies, but also for the food industry. But how much do we think that that is aligned with Donald Trump? Thinking back to the photo on the plane and the comments about the photo on the plane,

and the kind of love of McDonald's and KFC that RFK was sort of suggesting. Is that what Donald Trump wants, that level of accountability that Robert F Kennedy Jr. appears to be suggesting? Well, that gets to the heart of the most fascinating question that I think we're all trying to grapple with at the moment is what is the ideological thread that runs through the new Trump administration if indeed there is one? Because obviously, you know, he isn't against them fast food and junk food because, you know, he's McDonald's practically every day if he can. But is he going to allow

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to crack down on this. And that would be just a huge question about to what extent is his administration prepared to take on big business?

in fast food, ultra-processed food, even pharmaceuticals. And to what extent are they going to interfere with people's choices, advising people what to eat or not to eat, even legislating for, regulating what can and cannot go into foodstuffs? That would be a huge leap away from traditional Republican thinking. Now, we know Donald Trump is a huge leap away from that. That would be something that we really hadn't seen in America before. And I don't think we can take a thread that Donald Trump would stop him, not even because he loves a Big Mac.

Well, that's the point, isn't it? And there's not only that, but there's a further level of complexity, which is meant to be an anti-regulation administration. So, hang on a second, they're introducing a load of regulations that America doesn't have in other countries do. Isn't that what they tell us is a bad thing? But number two, I bet fruit loops have got great lawyers. I mean, seriously, great lawyers already. And the idea that any of this is doable quickly

in the American context, it just seems to me to be away with the fairies or the fruit loops, because it will take years. I mean, you can imagine the kind of litigation that there would be, if for instance, it did go for food colourings. And the fuss about what food colourings you went for and what the evidence was and all the rest of it, it goes straight to court, doesn't it? And it gets stuck in court for quite a long time. So there's an achievability problem, I think, with our FK Jr.

And it does raise the question of whether the whole thing is really, actually, really for your world, Marianna. It's for stuff online, so they can say, we're doing this, we're doing that, and they can upset liberals and all the other things they want to do. But actually, when it comes to really getting anything done, I'm not sure what it is.

Well, hang on just a note, because this has been tackled in Britain and in the EU and in other countries already. It's not impossible to... Socialists, they would call them. Well, that's why I think it's so interesting. Globalists. The RFP, Jr. is going to be allowed to go wild with public health on issues like this. And of course, as you know, when this becomes illegal or a legislative fight, the companies often voluntarily reduce these kind of additives themselves because they can see the direction of travel.

Even if they aren't compelled to do so, you might see that there would be some changes in composition as a result of a fight like this. I mean, one of the other things he wants to take on is direct to consumer pharmaceutical marketing, because this is one of just the most bizarre things about watching television in America. It's not just the quantity of adverts that you're subjected to. It's these ones for a particular kind of pill, for a particular kind of condition.

And it's so weird to Brits to think, you know, we get to choose which pill and which brand of it for whatever we think might be wrong with us. And some conditions as well that we've never heard of. I don't know if anyone in Britain suffers from restless leg syndrome, but plenty of Americans seem to given the pharmaceuticals that they're advertised. But of course it's bizarre to be, you know, pointing these adverts at patients, not doctors.

And it's worth saying as well, Justin, you mentioned there about how much does some of this play to a particular online audience or kind of get a little bit more of the debate and arguments that are happening in the social media world raging and continuing. Trump did post on True Social last week saying, for too long, Americans have been crushed by the industrial food complex and drug companies who've engaged in deception, misinformation and disinformation when it comes to public health.

Mr Kennedy will restore these agencies to the traditions of gold standard scientific research and beacons of transparency to end the chronic disease epidemic and to make America great and healthy again. And you know, that is a message that is actually quite positively received as we've kind of hinted at here, not just by some people who perhaps support Donald Trump, who are anti

misinformation fill as though anti-establishment in some ways, and then also people on the left who agree with some of these ideas too. Again, I guess you come back to this fundamental tension that we've been talking about, which is the position that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. frequently articulates that he truly believes in freedom of choice, including when it comes to vaccines or anything else. People can make up their own minds

And then at the same time we're talking about this possibility of kind of regulation or actually saying no americans you can't have this or you can have this it just feels like i don't know how you resolve that does end up with them falling out or does it just end up with nothing happening. There are lots of ideas that are changing your spouse is that are quite popular on what you might call the kind of crunchy california.

granola left like and raw milk or saying that and seed oils in cooking are bad for you even though not everybody would agree with him that beef tallow is what you should be frying your food in instead of seed oils and there's a bit of a connection isn't the mariana between people who get really into this kind of wellness stuff and then somehow find themselves it through some sort of online engagement being pushed towards other wilder conspiracy theories and before you know it there

believing Q on on conspiracies and supporting Donald Trump. You know, one of the reasons why Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has become such a poster boy for the social media conspiracy theory movement, whether that's how he'd characterize himself or not, is because he has kind of succeeded in marrying together lots of ways of thinking that fundamentally at their heart are kind of pretty anti-big farmer and anti-establishment in some ways.

And he in many ways, I mean, maybe if you've been talking about this two years ago, it would have perhaps been a little bit more of a surprise that he's popping up as health secretary. But now it almost seems like a bit of a no-brainer. You can see how it's so aligned with the strategy that has kind of got Donald Trump in the White House again, and seems aligned with the kind of quite mavericky approach he's taking to his presidency, it would seem.

And it's worth mentioning as well, actually, when we talk about them not seeing eye to eye, necessarily with one another, or perhaps that their ideas don't necessarily seem aligned. In the past, there have actually been examples of where Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has not seen eye to eye with Donald Trump, or has not been particularly complimentary about him. There was this tweet from a CNN journalist, which surfaced today saying,

that they'd uncovered from his radio show where he read out and praised a description of Donald Trump and his supporters as to quote Robert F. Kennedy Jr. belligerent idiots, outright Nazis.

Well, the way that you build a truly vicious nationalist movement is to wet a relatively small core of belligerent idiots to a much larger group of opportunists and spineless fellow travelers whose primary function is to turn a blind eye to things. We may not have that many outright Nazis in America, but we have plenty of cowards and boot liquors, and once those fleshy dominoes start tumbling into the Trump camp, the game is up.

I mean, when you compare it to what JD Vance, the incoming vice president, also said about Donald Trump years ago, it doesn't work. It doesn't cut through because if you say, as he has, that he's changed his mind, then Donald Trump's usually fine with that. And if he's fine with that, you're back in. And I think one of the issues, actually, for the Democrats, if they want to oppose RFK Jr,

former Democrat himself, of course, as I say, member of that great Democratic family, the Kennedys, is the problem you have with all populists when you oppose them. How do you do it? Do you kind of try and pick apart the facts? And the New York Times has already got into difficulties, actually, sorry to go on about fruit loops, but back on the fruit loop subject, they tried to sort of fact check which, which dies were in American fruit loops and which weren't and it all got a bit messy and they then had to fact check their own fact checkers.

And ended up looking a bit silly. And the problem with opposing Robert Kennedy is that he's a very, very big target, but he's also a kind of constantly moving target. And I'm not sure that they're going to be able to lay much of a glove on him if he does manage, as we were saying, to avoid getting into the real extremes on vaccines.

Well, I think that's going to be a question about how we cover this whole administration, because let's look at what RFK Jr. said in response to CNN having uncovered those rude things that he said about Trump and his movement. So his statement, he said, like many Americans, I allowed myself to believe the mainstream media has distorted dystopian portrait of President Trump. I no longer hold this belief in now regret having made those statements. So that works because

There's nothing Donald Trump likes better than somebody who comes and apologizes for having been wrong before and supplicates themselves in front of them and says, you know, I've now seen the light and I will follow you wherever you go. He loves that. But also that very idea that it's all just about the mainstream distorted dystopian portrait of Donald Trump. That's the answer to everything. And so many people now in America believe it and it worked during the campaign to say that's just fake news. Of course, they would say that wouldn't they?

that attacking an argument with fact just isn't really the way to go anymore in American public discourse, which is going to confuse a very great deal of people who want to use evidence to attack policy or something. But I don't think that's necessarily going to be effective for the next four years.

Yeah and just on that point about the mainstream media and fact checking like you mentioned Justin as well I know I know we've spoken about this quite a lot before but I think what it fundamentally tells us as journalists is that one of the ways of dealing with this is perhaps less so to focus on disputing every tiny little thing that comes out which will just be rebutted in that way and more so focusing on the consequences of all this stuff like what actually happens what what is the real world impact of what unfolds

And also this word mainstream media. Someone said something really good to me the other day. They said, I think that we should be called the professional media, not the mainstream media. I think that's a better way of thinking about it. It just seems to me on the subject of RFK and how you oppose him. I mean, there are to kind of argue against myself for a second. On the one hand, I think he is a very difficult target. On the other hand, if there's a measles outbreak... Exactly, that's what I mean about the real consequences, exactly.

Yeah, if there's a measles outbreak and children dying in the United States, and that happens in the next couple of years, or maybe in the run-up to the midterms in two years' time, and it's successfully pinned on changes in behaviour that seem to have happened since he

became health secretary, then you get into real difficulties for him and for the Trump administration. So, you know, I'm not arguing, I suppose, that he is necessarily going to be above politics forever. I just think at the moment he seems to be. But that's also the problem, isn't it? That people would argue that there's an issue in the fact that you might have to reach a point like that where something really genuinely bad could or does happen. And then everyone says, oh, why did everyone let that happen? And when they can't take that challenge, that is a bit of a problem.

We've got one last question from Alex Hill in Surrey. And the question is, now that Donald Trump has picked most of his cabinet senior staffers and co-chairs of fake departments, or as I like to call them, his basket of deplorables. That's what Alex says. Who do you think he will fall out with and fire first? So yeah, guys, I've been meaning to suggest that we have a sweepstakes on which of these big characters he's putting in his cabinet and putting on Trump Force One with him.

And we think he's going to fall out with first, because when he does, that's going to be pretty spectacular. Yeah, Justin loves a prediction. Yeah, I love a prediction. I'm going to go. I'm going to go for Elon Musk just because of the moment. Oh, that's why he's going to go for it as well. So my reasoning is that Elon Musk is himself a difficult and self-confident character. I was searching for the right phrase there. And he's someone who exists in a world outside politics. And I just think that

that fact is going to make it very difficult for him to kind of fit into a Trump administration, or indeed to any administration or any government. How long do you think, Justin? Six months. That's also what I was going to say. I also think Elon Musk, kind of for the same reasons, but because of all of the other people we're talking about, they all kind of, and reading out that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. statement, it feels like they, for want of a better verb, need Trump. Elon Musk does not need Donald Trump.

and therefore it could end up being later in his interest to fall out with Donald Trump possibly. So I also kind of think like the six-month mark, he also does move quickly and break things as is seen by lots of his strategy often that pays off. So yeah, I would also go for Elon Musk. I'll go for a different time limit. Let's I'll say I'll say a year. Sarah?

So you say Elon Musk doesn't need Donald Trump, and I agree with that. Does Donald Trump need Elon Musk? I mean, one of the things he's threatening people with at the moment in order to confirm some of his more controversial cabinet picks is saying to senators, if you don't vote my way on this, you will be subject to a primary challenge, how you'll be challenged for your seat from another Republican. And that has worked for Trump enemies in the past. Look at what happened to Liz Cheney, for instance.

And not only will you be facing a primary challenge, she says one that will be funded by Elon Musk, the richest man in the world. Do you want to take him on? Do you dare take him on? So that is actually, you know, that is quite a powerful threat and Trump on his own can't afford to do that kind of thing. I think he loves having the muscle of all of that money behind him as well to threaten his opponents and enemies with. So maybe he'll see in his interest to keep Elon Musk on side and

end up falling out with one of these characters that he's picked just because he's seen them on TV like Pete Higgseth or something. I mean he really must now be wondering why he's picked as his defense secretary. Somebody he didn't know when he made that choice had had sexual assault allegations made against him and now he's having to battle to get him confirmed. He might be wondering is he really worth it? So yeah I don't know it could be anybody in that cabinet to be honest. It's a volatile bunch shall we say.

And a point being as well, not just the outlandish ones. I mean, it could be that the outlandish ones all find a way of getting on, and it's the more normy ones who go. And then the obvious candidate is Marco Rubio, and he used to have Secretary of State problems, didn't he? In his first administration, Marco Rubio will be

almost certainly confirmed as Secretary of State. He is much more normy than the others, but will he fall out over what the deal is, for instance, with Russia over Ukraine or what happens in the Middle East, et cetera, et cetera? And does he have his own political aspirations in later life? He's still quite a young guy, which will necessitate him falling out with Trump if he sees it all going wrong for Trump. So it's not just the outlandish ones that might go. It's also the rest.

Sarah, you've niftily not given us a prediction. So we're going to ask you again. Who do you think? Have you had to choose? And I've given two. Well, yeah, Elon is the most obvious, isn't he? But do you know what? I mean, it would be fascinating if it was JD Vance, and that could come about if Trump thinks he's getting too much attention. He's been quite a loyal, oh, I don't know how to say it, consiglyary, up until now. And there he was on Capitol Hill this week, taking Matt Gaetz around trying to persuade senators to

support his nomination as attorney general. But if at any point he's getting too much limelight, too much attention, people talking about him running in 2028. Donald Trump might crack down on that quite quickly. In fact, he even said, in the un-election night, about RFK Jr. He said, oh, he's very popular, Bobby. Everybody loves Bobby. And then he said, don't get too popular, Bobby. Don't get too big for your boots. So yeah, so anybody who's being a bit too flashy and looking like a successor, I think maybe, maybe would come in for fire from Trump.

OK, that is the end of this episode. And thank you for your brilliant questions, which have triggered so much of the conversation today. So please, please keep them coming. The WhatsApp is plus 44-330-123-9480, americastatbbc.co.uk for questions via email. You can use the hashtag americast on Whichever, the social media platform that you use. And you can send us a message on Discord. The link is in the description.

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