This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. BBC sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Right. We're focusing in this episode on Elon Musk and X formerly known as Twitter. And we're doing so for one overriding reason, which is that it is important. It's important politically. Elon Musk himself is, of course, hugely important. Politically, it is a social media platform that has evolved as well. So we're going to look at why those changes matter.
what the implications are for politics for culture, both in the United States and also further afield. And with Elon Musk getting ever closer, it seems to Donald Trump. How do the politics play out? Welcome to America. America from BBC News. God spared my life for a reason.
Only when it is dark enough, can you see the stars? The star is born, Elon. I'm not just Magga, I'm dog, gothic Magga. This is what happens when the machine comes after you. I'm terrified for this country and I'm so hurt that America let this happen. I think that we just witnessed the greatest political comeback in the history of the United States of America.
It's Justin, in the worldwide headquarters of America, in London, England. Anna is Marianna, aka misinformation, also with Justin in the worldwide headquarters. Right, X, Marianna, of which you know a lot more than me, as you do about most things, but particularly these things. And it's not just X and what it is at the moment, it is how it's changed that matters.
Yeah, I was thinking about how we've discussed X Twitter for quite a while, I mean, the kind of whole life of us doing Americas, because when Elon Musk took over, you know, that was fairly recently after the podcast, we'd started doing the podcast. And what X looks like now
even compared to when Elon Musk first took over in those first few months when lots of people lost their jobs and there were kind of real questions about the direction he was going to take the social media platform in. It looks really different even compared to them and even compared to the start of the year. And I think one of the most helpful ways, I feel like right now quite a lot of people say quite a lot vague things about X. They'll say, oh, it's not what it used to be like or I don't like it as much or I like it more than I used to like it. But actually, I think it's quite helpful to zone in on
some accounts that can tell us about how X has changed. What individual accounts? Individual accounts. So I, as ever, have spent quite a lot of time messaging different accounts on X. And there's one in particular that stood out to me because after the US election it just kept
popping up on my feed on the undercover voters feeds. And it's an account that's called Inevitable West. It has like a statue as its profile picture, no other identifying details really. And this account didn't exist before October.
Now it is reaching, according to the person behind it, and just analysing and looking at the numbers, millions and millions of people every single week, up to like 30 million views for their posts on X. And they have very much taken Elon Musk's rallying cry after Donald Trump won the election, which was when he said,
We are the media now. X is the media now. You are the media now. Anna's kind of run with it. And I think what's important and interesting about an account like this one is it couldn't have existed in the way it does, certainly on the old iteration of Twitter.
and even Twitter of a year X of a year ago, I don't think it would exist in the way it does. And that's because of some of the changes Elon Musk has made. So like, you can buy a blue tick, which means you'll post have more prominence. He made that change quite early on when he took over the company. You can post stuff, whether it's true or not, and it might get a community note on it, like a kind of fact check from other users, but it's not removed ultimately. It stays there and it can still get millions and millions of views.
you can make money on X based as of the start of October this year, not on the kind of ads that pop up in your replies, but actually other premium users, blue ticks engaging with your stuff. So you've got this real incentive to post stuff that other big accounts are going to be interested in. And so you can basically kind of emerge from the ashes, like you don't have to
have any kind of experience of posting. You don't even have to have a following already or have built up a following over several years. You can literally, as this account has, just kind of skyrocket. What does the account do? What do they say? Well, they won't tell me exactly who they are.
They say that they're Gen Z, that they're based in Europe. And from what I've seen, I think they're based here in the UK, actually. They post all the time about British politics and American politics and all kinds of issues, often kind of hot takes and opinions, but they do it in a kind of news way. So it's like with a kind of a, you know, those siren emojis, like kind of sort of alert, like, right, news style update, this is what's going on.
They've posted about, I mean, genuinely, like, almost every topic under the sun that you could think of over the past few months. So, talking about the general election, AI-generated videos of Donald Trump having a go at Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, loads of posts in support of far-right activist Tommy Robinson, various debunked claims about different issues like the Southport attack that happened here in the UK.
and kind of British things, Conor McGregor, who is a boxer and who just went through a civil case, a lot about that kind of stuff. So quite British, but then also about Donald Trump, also about the Haitian cats and dogs, the Haitian immigrants, eating the cats and dogs, which again, there was not any evidence to support. And when I said to this account, well, how do you respond to accusations that you're putting out stuff that's not true and getting views and likes from it?
And they said, well, you know, this is just my job is sort of to put stuff out there. I basically don't really care and I would never delete my post, even if I knew it later, to be true. Because there is a defence, isn't there? Which is that you're allowed to say things and it doesn't matter whether they're true or not. You're allowed to say things in real life, doesn't matter whether they're true or not. You ought to be allowed to online as well, which presumably is what they would say.
We're going to ruin the world because people believed in misinformation. It's a stupid argument. Now that was Joe Rogan, the podcaster, talking to Elon Musk on an episode that he did discussing this issue of accountability, I guess, for users on X and how they can kind of check one another's posts and the issue of whether that is more or less reliable than the mainstream or traditional media. And this was what Elon Musk had to say.
And obviously anyone on the X system knows that things are posted and then there are replies and there are bottles and it's immediately corrected. But where are the corrections for the legacy media? Some broadcast media, they say false things all the time. But it's a one-way street. There's no rebuttal. There's no counter.
I think it's then comes under this question of prominence that people will always say stuff as we've trusted about loads that isn't true online or that might be divisive or hateful. But the difference is is when those posts can cumulatively reach millions and millions of people because the algorithms, the recommendation systems are actively pushing them and pushing them ahead of content from.
what we would have perhaps called trusted sources and which some people wouldn't trust but stuff that has actually had to be kind of rigorously like checked it is held to some kind of standard and it starts to get us into that debate about. What the media inverted commas kind of is now yeah and the standards to which these kinds of x accounts which which are reaching more people than like.
a lot of the network news in America, but yet don't have to remove a post. It can be amplified to millions of people. What about the argument that Elon Musk would certainly use were he here, and he's very welcome to be here, by the way, which you regularly say, and to sit down with you? Oh, he'd love to talk to Elon. But if he were here, what he would say is, look, what you have on X, which you don't have on the mainstream media,
Is number one that kind of checking process where people can have community notes but number two a kind of range of opinion that's out there and there are still left wing people on on x and there's a rigorous discussion of things on x and actually that rigorous discussion and diversity of opinion you don't get in the mainstream media and on that certainly when it comes to the mainstream media in America has got a point isn't it?
Yeah, and that's kind of what this account inevitable West was saying to me back and forth over message, making this point that they believe that their account is a kind of voice for the silent majority of the Western world to quote them. And the uncensored information and opinions will lead the US and the world further to the right, which they see as a good thing because they believe it means that corrupt politicians and leaders will get found out. And so there's clearly a kind of ideological goal to some of this stuff.
I think one of the reasons that we're talking about it and we're talking about the evolution of x and why we care about account like inevitable west is slightly that point which is. What is the game plan of inevitable west well possibly a bit ideological they also told me about how much money they've been able to make on x given the changes in the way that you can make money so they told me that they can make two thousand five hundred dollars a month.
and they know other accounts that are making as much as $25,000 every single month posting like 30 times a day. So you've got an account like that that's incentivised by how they benefit from it. But then if you think about the wider goal of this, and to your point about the politics, when Elon Musk took over, he made this really big point of saying this is a place that this kind of town square point, like I believe in freedom of expression in a pretty absolute way, and I think everyone across the political spectrum should be able to express their views.
The aspiration for X is to be the global town square. Now, if you were to walk down to, let's say, Times Square. Do you occasionally hear people saying crazy things? Yes, but they don't have the megaphone, right? And that's a conundrum. They can only say it to the 50 or 100 people that are sitting standing there in Times Square.
They don't have a mega, I mean, look, the joke I used to make about old Twitter was it was like giving everyone in the psych ward a megaphone. So, you know, I'm aware that things can get promoted that are negative beyond the sort of circle of somebody simply screaming crazy things in Times Square, which happens all the time.
Now, when I look at the undercover voters' feeds, for example, the fictional characters that are based across the political spectrum, all of their feeds on X look pretty similar. And that is to say that they are right now, at least, even for the left-leaning voters, dominated largely by pro-Donald Trump content, right-leaning content. But is that not also an evolution in a sense then? So all the righties stay on X, and it becomes known as this place where, I mean, Elon Musk would describe it as
freedom of thought and all the rest of it but actually to a lot of people it just becomes a right wing and essentially right wing site where right wing opinions are given precedence and people go to other sites because there are other sites aren't they and they are going there.
Yeah, so Blue Sky, for example, has got more than 20 million users now. That's a kind of alternative, I guess, to X, which some people, particularly who seem to lean further to the left, have moved over to, and they've decided not to use X. There's been quite a lot of debate about the algorithms, the recommendation systems, and the suggestion that Elon Musk has somehow kind of tinkered with the algorithms.
to mean that pro-Donald Trump content does well. Obviously he's been very explicit as a kind of private citizen of his support of Donald Trump and now he's been put forward as the head of this kind of department, not department of government efficiency by Donald Trump. So he's got this kind of tangential government role it sort of looks like, although it's kind of unclear exactly how that will shape up.
But actually from what i've found i'm speaking to inevitable west and lots of other accounts as another account i spoke to and someone called andy who again was a kind of account this kind of rhythm from the ashes i didn't expect to have this huge reach in does.
So the purpose of my account was basically just to keep making more friends and then later on, I wanted to use it to promote the apps I was building. I never really intended to become an influencer. What I thought was quite interesting about my conversation with Andy was that it didn't seem, at least when we were messaging back and forth, that he had a kind of ideological goal, really in quite the same way as some of the other accounts I was messaging. Instead, it very much was the case of being like, wow, oh my gosh, I've been able to suddenly reach loads and loads of people with some of the posts I'm sharing. And one that
he highlighted in particular was this post about a squirrel. There was this controversy surrounding a squirrel before the election in the United States because this squirrel was put down and it was kind of used as an example of where Elon Musk and others on X felt there was government overreach into people's personal lives.
specifically about this squirrel. Anyway, Andy had shared a meme about squirrels about this story. And that meme, for example, had 45 million views, which is only 5 million less at the time when Andy was messaging me than Joe Rogan's Trump podcast.
The squirrel meme that Elon quote tweeted has 45 million views now, which is on par with Joe Rogan's Trump podcast. And I'm just some guy like I'm not Joe Rogan. But I think it's really special that something I post can get as much viewership as Joe Rogan has with his brand and Trump's brand combined sort of signals that attention is becoming the most important currency more than almost anything else you can do.
It's not from what I've seen that the algorithm has been specifically altered in some way, which kind of, I think, misunderstands like how algorithms work anyway, which these systems based on preferences that give us stuff. They're sort of like a path or a route. Instead, Elon Musk has created an environment
in which those kinds of accounts thrive and so it's skewing a certain way because those kinds of accounts are getting the engagement and they're getting the likes and they're incentivized to be there and they're reaching millions of people and so it's not like a kind of right i'm going to rig this in order to favor this political viewpoint is just like he's created an environment that does favor.
some of the accounts which presumably blue sky do with the opposite well exactly exactly that and so it's actually about like all of these different ingredients all put together and how that creates a space where certain accounts can grow and you know the argument would be from Elon Musk if he were to talk to me I imagine
that well this is a good thing because this means that people you know it empowers the average person or people who would call themselves citizen journalists to be able to put stuff out there to be able to have discussions to not be censored in that way which there are positives to but the downside is not just the stuff that isn't true but then also
I think, and it's important to talk about this, and we've spoken about this before, the impact on freedom of expression of people who don't feel particularly happy on X anymore because of the level of stuff that they're putting up with. Yeah, but that's interesting, because you look at someone like Jesse Single, who's a US journalist, prominent guy, writes for The Economist, The Atlantic, sort of liberal-minded bloke, who writes a lot about gender medicine, as it is called, and it's critical of
the way in which trans issues are dealt with sometimes and critical about them in a kind of thoughtful way. He's not an abuser of people in any way, shape or form, but he is described recently. I was reading something he wrote about being on blue sky and the level of death threats and hatred that comes to him. In other words, all the same stuff that
that there is on X and that you get on X. There is on the other platforms. So I wonder, I mean, it's not a happy scene for humanity, is it? But I just wonder whether in the end, you just, people just go to the places that they feel comfortable and stay away from the places that they don't feel comfortable. And in that, that is where the media market will be in social media in sort of five years time. So when we're talking about the power that this has and why all of this matters,
That's the question that comes to me. I'm not quite sure that we necessarily have got to why it matters a lot because it's changing very fast and eventually it reaches a kind of equilibrium.
Yeah, well, it's kind of that idea that you create these mini, well, it's kind of like the next level of echo chamber. It's like people are doubling down in a space where people agree with the mini mini echo chambers and they kind of become more extreme and you become even more closely aligned with the people around you and there's less diversity of thought and conversation, which when Elon Musk took over X, that was kind of what he implied was one of his goals, but you get that sense that
That's it's kind of gone in the opposite direction really in terms of like the ability of people to communicate and argue over certain things I think when it comes to the hate and you're right they're like hate and online abuse Existed on old Twitter they exist across all of the different social media sites and have I think what feels different and I can just say this from my personal experience of being on X And I've sat in this chair and cried to you when I got very very trolled and you know musk and
decided to respond to an investigation I'd done for panorama a couple of years ago now. But I could open up my phone right now and look at X and the level of vitriol and the level of misogyny is very explicit, often threats, violent language, sexualised language, the kind of stuff targeting me is just
different to even what it felt like before November. And the problem with that is, and I hear from lots of people who use X who like X, I hear from lots of people who use X who are finding it trickier to use it, is that when you're receiving that level of vitriol, it's kind of like, what's the point anymore? But what about the politics of it and the political power side of it? Because I mean, I can see the argument that Elon Musk is spectacularly wealthy.
And and X. And if he wants to keep it going, there isn't really a commercial issue there. Whereas I don't know who funds blue sky and the other kind of various alternatives that there are. I mean, some of them very wealthy people presume. Well, I think also this gets to a really important reason that we're talking about this, which is, you know, we're talking about X and why it matters and the way it can affect political conversation and how it's how it has evolved and changed. But ultimately, at the heart of this, this is also about the relationship between the new US government, between the new US president, Donald Trump.
and the social media companies and Elon Musk is in many ways like leading the charge in terms of what that relationship can look like when it's going really well which is him being totally on board with Donald Trump and them seeming to be very aligned in what they want in lots of ways although there are things that they it'll be interesting to see how aligned they are and how much of that is is
going to change the way that the other social media companies deal with Donald Trump. Because we know that there were lots of reports about Mark Zuckerberg, who owns Meta, which runs Instagram and Facebook, meeting in Marilago with Donald Trump. But that rate is a really interesting point, which is accountability. Because we're talking about all of this as this. There's nothing actually that democratic governments or us or anyone can do anything about. And it's sort of, that is true, isn't it?
Well, but if you look at the trend globally, I guess, I feel like as time is certainly in the time I've done this job, I think there has been a kind of more general shift towards all. Maybe people do need to do something about this, particularly in terms of the impact of social media on kids and teenagers. And so different governments around the world have been looking at how to deal with that.
here in the UK, we've got this online safety act where the regulator has been given the kind of authority to get the social media companies to commit to doing certain stuff to protect particularly kind of kids and younger users, how that will work in practice is kind of a different question. In Australia, there's been discussion of decisions to ban social media for certain age groups or certain platforms from certain age groups and so on. So what's happening with Donald Trump and the companies in the US in some ways feels like a bit of a marked
shift, like a different direction. It feels like kind of globally the trend has been, oh, actually, maybe we need some more regulation and some more rules for these companies. And with Donald Trump, it kind of feels like, oh, actually, he seems to be understanding the power that a lot of these big bosses and their companies possess and seeing the benefit of that. And has been very, very good at harnessing that for his own kind of political aim.
And to what extent does he really go down the freedom of expression above everything else? Or is he worried about kids and teenagers and do they do something? I mean, how he feels about TikTok and the ban and the kind of suggestion that maybe he's not as on board with it as he used to be, maybe shows us that it feels like he's going in behind Big Tech. And then you think, well, who does that benefit? Like, is it because it benefits Donald Trump to be sort of aligned with them? Or is it that they benefit?
the social media companies and the bosses from being aligned with Donald Trump because ultimately regulation, which comes with the threat of big fines, which comes with the threat of actually having to possibly overhaul your entire business model because of how the recommendation systems and the algorithms work. Are you kind of protecting yourself? I think that that will be, and ultimately, lots of these companies
are based in the United States. So actually like what Donald Trump decides to do and what the States do is probably arguably, as I was often the case, more important than what anyone else around the world does. And does that change the whole conversation? And then what happens also if Donald Trump kind of like falls out with Elon Musk or something? Does he suddenly go right? Yes, X is done for.
As ever, it is worth saying that I put all of these points to X and got in touch with them and tried to interview Elon Musk again. He hasn't responded and neither have X, but they do continue to say online in their public guidelines that defending the user's voice is the most important thing.
It is, to put it mildly, said he rather lamely, a fast-changing business. We've had a stab at it, but it could be completely different, of course, in a few months' time. It's certainly worth us keeping an eye on Mariana, as I ever thank you, and that is it from us. You can get in touch as ever, 44-330-1239480americast.bbc.co.uk. The hashtag is Americaast.
And you can send us comments and questions on Discord. The link to our server is in the description to this podcast. You can also read a piece that I've written all about the X accounts I chatted to and tracked down and what it reveals about the evolution of the social media site and where it's headed on the BBC website. So do go and check that out. And remember, you hear America's first and in full as a podcast on BBC Sounds. See you all later. Bye. America's America's from BBC News.
Thanks for listening to Americaast from BBC News. You can subscribe to this podcast on the free BBC Sounds app.
Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by. And in 2017, Miranda, a university tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation. It felt a really safe and welcoming space. After the yoga classes, I felt amazing.
But soon, that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker, a journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders. I don't have my passport, I don't have my phone, I don't have my bank cards, I have nothing. The passport being taken, the being in a house and not feeling like they can leave.
World of Secrets is where untold stories are unveiled and hidden realities are exposed. In this new series, we're confronting the dark side of the wellness industry with the hope of a spiritual breakthrough gives way to disturbing accusations. You just get sucked in so gradually.
and it's done so skillfully that you don't realise. And it's like this, the secret that's there. I wanted to believe that, you know, that
whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me, was for some spiritual reason that I couldn't yet understand. Revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network, I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line. I want truth and justice.
and further people to not be hurt for things to be different in the future. To bring it into the light and almost alchemise some of that evil stuff that went on and take back the power. World of Secrets Season 6, the Bad Guru. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
