Trust Issues: Trust in government has declined due to poor performance and misinformation, creating a cycle of skepticism. While effective policies like those from the Biden administration exist, loyalty may still persist to leaders like Trump, complicating the trust landscape.
Trust in the government has been declining due to a cycle where public institutions fail to meet people's needs, leading to decreased support for those institutions. This cycle is worsened by misinformation online, making it hard for people to agree on basic facts. Examples from other countries, like Sweden, show that when institutions are trusted and seen as fair, people are more likely to support them. However, not all positive policy changes lead to immediate trust improvements, as seen with the Teamsters, who despite receiving help from the Biden administration, still show loyalty to Trump. This highlights that trust is complex and influenced by various factors, beyond just policy effectiveness.
Political Trust: Public opinion on policies can shift over time, while trust in institutions has polarized, complicating governance and creating divided realities among voters.
Changes in public opinion about significant policies like the Affordable Care Act can take time to develop, as seen over an eight-year span where views shifted dramatically. Trust in institutions has also become polarized, leading to more extreme skepticism about government and science, particularly among right-wing voters. This results in a dangerous environment where different groups may have their own perceived realities. Without shared trust in reliable sources of information, it can further complicate political dynamics and hinder effective governance. Individuals such as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. may transcend typical party lines, gravitating towards a populist anti-establishment sentiment that fuels distrust, making it imperative to understand how these shifts affect political landscapes and voter behavior.
Populism and Power: JD Vance's brand of populism critiques traditional parties but aligns with right-wing interests, risking further control over public institutions. This highlights the need for the Democratic Party to address past failures to regain public trust and offer real solutions.
JD Vance represents a conflict within the current Republican party, promoting a so-called populism that appears to voice the frustrations of the working class while adopting traditional conservative policies, such as tax cuts for the wealthy. This approach, while presenting an image of fighting for the people, essentially aims to consolidate power for right-wing interests. Additionally, there is a growing distrust in established institutions, prompting calls to 'take back' the system. However, this may ultimately put those institutions under partisan control, benefiting only a select group rather than the general public. Many voters, feeling abandoned by traditional politics, may be swayed by Vance's narrative, highlighting a deep need for the Democratic Party to confront its past failures, particularly its involvement in the Iraq War, to restore trust among constituents and deliver meaningful solutions.
Shifting Perspectives: Democrats are recognizing the need for ambitious local solutions to housing and clean energy issues, balancing regulations with positive development to address challenges effectively.
There has been a significant shift in how Democrats approach complex issues like housing and clean energy. Once hesitant about their positions, they now recognize the need for ambitious policies and local solutions. The challenge remains in balancing regulations that prevent harm while enabling positive development. Empowering local governments could lead to better outcomes, as they can address concerns more effectively than federal solutions. While resources are essential, supportive policies that encourage growth and reduce bureaucratic hurdles are critical for success. This change reflects a broader understanding that meeting big problems with practical governance can lead to progress rather than hindrance.
Opportunity Economy: Governance needs to balance state and local needs while creating an 'opportunity economy' that enhances social mobility. Investments in education and manufacturing are essential to reverse decades of inequality and support real opportunities for communities.
Governance often struggles between state and local decision-making. While there's a push to empower local governments, these communities frequently resist necessary projects, wanting them in neighboring towns instead. A shift toward creating an 'opportunity economy' aims to improve social mobility through investments in education, infrastructure, and manufacturing. For real change to occur, we must address the growing inequality that has developed over decades while recognizing the economic achievements made in the last few years, particularly in manufacturing. Climate challenges also pose threats to opportunity, making it crucial to implement a responsive and thoughtful economic agenda that leads to broader access and growth. A key focus should be on reversing the inequality trend and ensuring that opportunity is not just a political term but a reality for all citizens.
Economic Growth Perspective: Believing that jobs are a zero-sum game oversimplifies competition. Immigration can create overall growth, as seen in Springfield, Ohio. Recognizing contributions from newcomers and fostering local understanding can lead to unity and economic benefit for all.
There’s a belief that competition for jobs and resources is a zero-sum game, where one person's gain means another's loss. Yet, this view is overly simplistic. While competition exists, immigration and local economic growth can lead to overall job increases. This was seen in places like Springfield, Ohio, where new people brought benefits rather than threats. Local interactions often showcase the positive contributions that immigrants and newcomers can offer. Ultimately, fostering understanding within communities can mitigate negative narratives driven by fear and competition. Instead of embracing overly divisive ideas, it's essential to acknowledge that economies can grow in ways that benefit everyone, and to seek common ground rather than division. Compassion and local understanding are crucial for real progress.
Navigating Immigration Issues: Addressing immigration thoughtfully requires balancing border security and compassion. Politicians should focus on genuine assistance instead of exploiting fears. Societal inequality feeds resentment, driving divisive politics. A future of decency in immigration policy hinges on rebuilding trust and inclusivity within communities.
Humanity and grace are essential in navigating the complexities of immigration and social issues. As communities face the challenges of growth and changing demographics, politicians like JD Vance should focus on supporting their constituents rather than exploiting problems. Inequality and disconnection foster resentment, leading to divisive politics. It is crucial to address feelings of being left out or cheated, which can make people susceptible to harmful messages. Both Democrats and Republicans must balance border security with compassion and inclusivity to rebuild trust and engage in meaningful discussions about immigration. Past approaches like increased deportations by Obama, meant to gain credibility, ended up hurting comprehensive reform efforts. As public sentiment changes, there is hope for a shift towards decency and a more humane immigration policy, paving the way for a future that values contribution rather than fear of the other.
Immigration and Foreign Policy: Many Americans support a balanced approach to immigration, valuing its economic benefits while ensuring security. The Republican shift toward isolationism and skepticism about foreign aid stems from past failures, highlighting the need for a clearer Democratic foreign policy that avoids simplistic narratives.
In today's political landscape, there's a growing recognition among many Americans that immigration policies should balance security with the benefits that orderly immigration brings to the economy. However, the changing views within the Republican Party toward isolationism, especially regarding foreign aid, reflects a voice of skepticism rooted in past military failures. While some officials feel the U.S. should firmly support initiatives like Ukraine’s defense, many express concern that current foreign policies lack clarity and effectiveness. As Donald Trump's influence shifts Republican ideology, there's hope for a future Republican Party less entangled in past mistakes and more aligned with democratic values. In navigating this landscape, Democrats must articulate a clear vision for their foreign policy goals, ensuring it does not veer into simplistic good versus evil narratives, which historically led to significant diplomatic failures.
Commitment to Democracy: Commitment to democracy is crucial, especially against forces like Trumpism. Supporting Ukraine and making clear goals can help maintain global stability and promote values that matter.
Trumpism challenges our commitment to democracy, pushing us towards aligning with less democratic regimes. This is dangerous for America and the world. We must support democracy globally while recognizing that success in conflicts like Ukraine isn’t about easy victories but about standing firm against aggression and promoting universal values. Ensuring we align our actions with clear goals can help maintain support and prevent further conflicts, with the outcome depending on the will of people in those nations. Reflecting on recent literature, the importance of narrative in understanding global events and historical contexts emerges clearly, highlighting the power of stories in shaping our perspectives as we navigate complex geopolitical landscapes.
Evolution of Power: Understanding the evolution of executive power reveals how much governance has changed over time. Reflecting on historical contexts helps us appreciate modern interagency collaboration and leadership roles, highlighting the need for adaptation in political institutions.
Executive power has evolved significantly over time, and understanding past systems can help us appreciate the complexities of modern governance. Imagining oneself casually walking through the halls of power illustrates how the role and approach of leaders have changed. These reflections, highlighted in a recent show, remind us of the importance of recognizing the history of our political institutions and how they function today. Analyzing these shifts can provide valuable insights into how decision-making processes and interagency collaboration operate in the present day, emphasizing the necessity for constant adaptation in leadership roles. As the landscape of governance continues to transform, exploring these historical contexts enables us to better understand current challenges and opportunities within the political framework. Therefore, examining history is crucial to grasping the nuances of today's executive power and interagency processes.
What Pete Buttigieg Learned Playing JD Vance
The Ezra Klein Show
355 Episodes
Recent Episodes from The Ezra Klein Show
About the Coming Paywall
In a couple weeks, the archives of our show will only be available to subscribers. Here’s why that’s happening and what to expect.
To learn more, go to nytimes.com/podcasts.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalogue, and the back catalogues of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.
MAGA Is Not as United as You Think
I’ve been fascinated by the problem Donald Trump faces with Project 2025. Trump has been caught in an awkward position, disavowing the document itself, but unable to fully disavow the people behind it. So I wanted to do an episode not just on Trump, but on the unwieldy coalition that has formed around him — what is sometimes referred to as the “New Right.”
Emily Jashinsky is the D.C. correspondent and host of “Undercurrents” for UnHerd, a co-host of “Counter Points” with Ryan Grim, and a former editor at The Federalist, one of the most influential sites among conservatives today. She’s described herself as someone with “a foot in both camps” of the “Old Right” and the “New Right.” So I thought she’d be a great guide to understanding how the conservative movement has changed.
In this conversation, we discuss the key differences between the Old Right and the New Right; what the New Right wants; why New Right thinkers are so interested in the concepts of “modernity” and “virtue”; and what influence the New Right might have in a second Trump administration.
Mentioned:
The Virtue of Nationalism by Yoram Hazony
Book Recommendations:
Primal Screams by Mary Eberstadt
The Devil’s Chessboard by David Talbot
The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Efim Shapiro.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalogue, and the back catalogues of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.
What Pete Buttigieg Learned Playing JD Vance
America has become increasingly polarized when it comes to trust. Voters who distrust the system — who see institutions as corrupt and are prone to conspiracy theories — have long existed on the far left and far right. But Donald Trump seems to have sparked a realignment, what the writer Matthew Yglesias calls “the crank realignment.” The G.O.P. is now the political home of the distrustful, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s Trump endorsement was a clear sign of these changing times.
In 2020, Pete Buttigieg wrote a book on trust in politics. And he’s been persistent in making the case — in speeches, on TV — for what he calls “a better kind of politics.” So I wanted to talk to him about his theory of politics. Why does he think so many Americans have lost trust in the government? What responsibility does the Democratic Party have here? And how does he believe trust can be restored?
Note: I invited Buttigieg on the show in his personal capacity so we could discuss his thoughts on the election without violating the Hatch Act, which prohibits members of the government from campaigning in their official guise. This also means I wasn't able to ask Buttigieg many questions about his work as transportation secretary. But I think we still had a pretty fascinating conversation.
Book Recommendations:
Morning and Evening by Jon Fosse
The Future Is History by Masha Gessen
Mr. Churchill in the White House by Robert Schmuhl
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Jonah Kessel, Elliot DeBruyn and Selcuk Karaoglan.
Israel vs. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran — and Itself
It’s been almost a year since Oct. 7. More than 40,000 Palestinians in Gaza are dead. The hostages are not all home, and it doesn’t look like there will be a cease-fire deal that brings them home anytime soon. Israeli politics is deeply divided, and the country’s international reputation is in tatters. The Palestinian Authority is weak. A war may break out in Lebanon soon. There is no vision for the day after and no theory of what comes next.
So I wanted to talk to David Remnick, the editor of The New Yorker. Remnick has been reporting from Israel for decades and has a deep familiarity and history with both the region and the politics and the people who are driving it. He first profiled Benjamin Netanyahu back in 1998. In 2013, he profiled Naftali Bennett, the politician leading Netanyahu in polls of who Israelis think is best suited to be prime minister. And he recently profiled Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza.
In this conversation, we talk about what Remnick learned profiling Netanyahu, Bennett and Sinwar, as well as where Israel’s overlapping conflicts with Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah and Iran sit after nearly a year of war. Remnick and I were both recently in Israel and the West Bank, as well as near Israel’s border with Lebanon, and we discuss our impressions from those trips.
Mentioned:
“Notes from Underground” by David Remnick
“The Party Faithful” by David Remnick
“The Outsider” by David Remnick
Book Recommendations:
Hope Against Hope by Nadezhda Mandelstam
These Truths by Jill Lepore
Cosmopolitanism by Kwame Anthony Appiah
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones
I stumbled on a Zadie Smith line recently that stopped me in my tracks. She was writing in January 2017, and describing the political stakes of that period — Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the U.S. — and the way you could feel it changing people.
“Millions of more or less amorphous selves will now necessarily find themselves solidifying into protesters, activists, marchers, voters, firebrands, impeachers, lobbyists, soldiers, champions, defenders, historians, experts, critics. You can’t fight fire with air. But equally you can’t fight for a freedom you’ve forgotten how to identify.”
What Smith is describing felt so familiar — how politics can sometimes feel like it demands we put aside our internal conflict, our uncertainty, so we can take a strong position. I see it so often in myself and people around me, and yet I rarely hear it talked about. And Smith’s ability to give language to these kinds of quiet battles inside of ourselves is one reason she’s been one of my favorite writers for years.
Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her latest novel, “The Fraud,” also deals with politics and identity. It’s about a case in 19th-century London, but it has eerie resonances with our current political moment. I wasn’t surprised to learn that Trump and populism were front of mind for her when she wrote it. In this conversation, we discuss what populism is really channeling, why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness, how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media, and more.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
Feel Free by Zadie Smith
“Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction” by Zadie Smith
Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman
“Generation Why?” by Zadie Smith
Book Recommendations:
The Director by Daniel Kehlmann
The Rebel’s Clinic by Adam Shatz
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
The Real ‘Border Czar’ Defends the Biden-Harris Record
Republicans want to label Kamala Harris as the border czar. And by just looking at a chart, you can see why. Border crossings were low when Donald Trump left office. But when President Biden is in the White House, they start shooting up and up — to numbers this country had never seen before, peaking in December 2023. Those numbers have fallen significantly since Biden issued tough new border policies. But that has still left Harris with a major vulnerability. Why didn’t the administration do more sooner? And why did border crossings skyrocket in the first place?
Harris was not the border czar; she had little power over policy. But to the extent that there is a border czar, it’s the secretary of homeland security, Alejandro Mayorkas. So I wanted to have him on the show to explain what’s happened at the border the past few years — the record surge, the administration’s record and what it has revealed about our immigration system.
Book Recommendations:
The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead
String Theory by David Foster Wallace
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Ariel G. Ruiz Soto, Dara Lind, David Frum, Jason De Léon, Michael Clemens, Natan Last and Steven Camarota.
Harris Had a Theory of Trump, and It Was Right
Tuesday night was the first — perhaps the only — debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris. And it proved one of Harris’s stump speech lines right: Turns out she really does know Trump’s type. She had a theory of who Trump was and how he worked, and she used it to take control of the collision. But this was a substantive debate, too. The candidates clashed on abortion, health care, the economy, energy, immigration and more. And so we delve into the policy arguments to untangle what was really being said — and what wasn’t.
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Jack McCordick. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
The Opinions: A Pro-Life Case for Harris and a Writing Contest With ChatGPT
Our Times Opinion colleagues recently launched a new podcast called “The Opinions.” It’s basically the Opinion page in audio form, so you can hear your favorite Times Opinion columnists and contributing writers in one place, in their own voices.
It’s an eclectic and surprising mix of perspectives, as you’ll see with these two segments we’ve selected for you to enjoy. The first is with the Times Opinion columnist (and friend of the pod) David French, a lifelong conservative who’s staunchly pro-life, on why he’s voting for Kamala Harris this November, and the second is with the novelist Curtis Sittenfeld, who enters into a writing competition of sorts against a new writer on the block — ChatGPT.
Mentioned:
“David French on the Pro-Life Case for Kamala Harris”
“Can You Tell Which Short Story ChatGPT Wrote?”
You can subscribe to “The Opinions” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, iHeartRadio — or wherever you listen to podcasts.
On Children, Meaning, Media and Psychedelics
I feel that there’s something important missing in our debate over screen time and kids — and even screen time and adults. In the realm of kids and teenagers, there’s so much focus on what studies show or don’t show: How does screen time affect school grades and behavior? Does it carry an increased risk of anxiety or depression?
And while the debate over those questions rages on, a feeling has kept nagging me. What if the problem with screen time isn’t something we can measure?
In June, Jia Tolentino published a great piece in The New Yorker about the blockbuster children’s YouTube channel CoComelon, which seemed as if it was wrestling with the same question. So I invited her on the show, and our conversation ended up going places I never expected. Among other things, we talk about how the decision to have kids relates to doing psychedelics, what kinds of pleasure to seek if you want a good life and how much the debate over screen time and kids might just be adults projecting our own discomfort with our own screen time.
We recorded this episode a few days before the Trump-Biden debate — and before Donald Trump chose JD Vance as his running mate. We then got so swept up in politics coverage we never got a chance to air it. But I am so excited to finally get this one out into the world.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
“How CoComelon Captures Our Children’s Attention” by Jia Tolentino
“Can Motherhood Be a Mode of Rebellion?” by Jia Tolentino
How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell
Book Recommendations:
Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
In Ascension by Martin MacInnes
When We Cease to Understand the World by Benjamin Labatut
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Jeff Geld, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.
Best Of: Tired? Distracted? Burned Out? Listen to This.
I’m convinced that attention is the most important human faculty. Your life, after all, is just the sum total of the things you’ve paid attention to. We lament our attention issues all the time — how distracted we are, how drained we feel, how hard it is to stay focused or present. And yet, while there’s no shortage of advice on how to improve our sleep hygiene or spending habits or physical fitness, there’s hardly any good information about how to build and replenish our capacity for paying attention.
Gloria Mark is a professor at the University of California, Irvine, and the author of the book “Attention Span.” And she’s one of the few people who have deeply studied the way our attention works, how that’s been changing and what we can do to stop frittering away our attention budgets.
This was our first release of 2024, a kind of New Year’s resolutions episode. And since it can sometimes help to be reminded of the intentions with which you began your year — especially in the midst of a high-intensity election season — we thought we’d share it again.
Book recommendations:
“The Challenger Launch Decision” by Diane Vaughan
“The Undoing Project” by Michael Lewis
“The God Equation” by Michio Kaku
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.