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Turn into Million Bazillion, wherever you find your favorite podcast. A whole new season is out now. Million Bazillion is presented in partnership with Greenlight, the debit card and money app for kids in Teen's Greenlight helps kids and teens learn to earn, save, spend wisely and invest. When you sign up for Greenlight account at greenlight.com slash million. Hello everybody, I'm Kyle Risdall. Welcome back to Make Me Smart, where none of us is as smart as all of us.
And I'm Kimberly Adams. It is Tuesday, November the 19th. And since Donald Trump was reelected, you may have heard people in the news online, maybe even in your own life, saying something along the lines of, this is not who we are, or this isn't America.
And that idea is connected to this notion of something called American exceptionalism. This idea that the United States is in the world uniquely virtuous and kind of like above certain things that other nations, not us, might have to deal with.
So we are going to talk about that today. We're going to talk about it with Susie Hanson. She's been a journalist for many, many years. She was a decade or so in Turkey and she's written a book that takes a hard look at American exceptionalism. It's called notes on a foreign country and American abroad and a post American world. Welcome to the pod. So is he good to have you on? Thank you so much for having me. So where does this notion of American exceptionalism come from?
I don't know if it started with one particular thinker or one quote, but I think that it started with the very founding of the country because it was seen as, of course, the Promised Land. And then with the centuries of immigration, there was a sense that everyone was going to this special nation, this country of the future. And that's where we get these ideas. I mean, a lot of these are also grounded in Christian notions of a shining city on a hill, the last best
hope of Earth, these kinds of phrases that we hear people say. But I think it's also something that evolved over time. And so I think that by the time we get to the 20th century when the US was victorious after World War II, I think that those notions that we were exceptional or unique in the world became quite fervent and maybe even just the ideology that we all share. What has it sort of done to us as a country to carry this ideal throughout American history?
Well, I think there are two different things that we're talking about. There's sort of what it hasn't done to us as individuals, which is that if you think about it, it has done a lot to our sense of ourselves, that we are unique, that we are part of the best country on earth, that we are, I think in many ways, virtuous, as you said, inherently good, that the country is inherently good. And of course, where this becomes a problem is in foreign policy. And so,
You have this sense that, oh, okay, we can invade a country or we can influence a country or we can stage a military coup in a country. And it's all for the best of that country because everyone wants to be like us. Everyone is on this evolutionary spectrum to become like the United States because we are, you know, the young nation that everybody aspires to. And I think that that has obviously gotten us into a tremendous amount of trouble. Well, let's keep going. Where does American exceptionalism stand now?
Well, I think that, I mean, it's a quite a trouble time for American exceptionalism. I would argue that we have it so deeply within us that it is the basis of the way that we view the world, that it's quite difficult for us to even root it out. So, I mean, this is our nationalism. For many, many years, it was not called a nationalism. It might have been called a patriotism, but it is very much our nationalism, sort of the ideology that we share.
And I think that one thing that happened at least in the 21st century was the war on terror. I think that in many ways it was a great failure in terms of the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. And I think it was humiliating for a lot of people. And look, we were not able to install a democracy in these countries. We were not able to create countries in our own image.
And there was so much violence and so much killing. And so I think that a lot of people started to question the project then. And I think sometimes these things work on you in the background, right, even if it isn't something that you pay that much attention to. I think obviously there have been new conversations around race and racism in our country.
a new examination of the legacy of slavery. I mean, is this history really unique? Is this history really special? I think that people have been questioning all of those things. But I think this loss of feeling or a sense of loss of power in the world, the rise of other countries like China and Russia have made people feel insecure. And that is possible why many of them have grasped towards this new kind of nationalism as asserted by Donald Trump and others.
You talk about the history, maybe not lining up with the idea that we're special or unique, but even in the modern day, if you look at things like how well we educate our children, our public transportation system, the lack of healthcare compared to other developed countries, there's a whole list of ways that the United States is kind of falling behind.
even some developing countries in a variety of ways. And whenever I have these conversations with people, the pushback is, well, then why is everyone still trying to come here? Yes, I mean, 100%. Obviously, all of these realities contradict the myths. And I think that one thing you have to think about there is that if it was important to your sense as an American to believe that the country was special and unique, those statistics, that realization,
that your health care is worse, that the country is unequal, that the education system is bad, is going to start to be incredibly painful. And you're going to start to wonder why. And so I think that that's part of the reason why there is this confusion. As to the question of why it's funny, I actually quote someone who says that in my book, this question of why do people still want to come here? Well, look, a lot of people don't want to come here after September 11th.
A lot of people who have been through the terrible, you know, dressing down at the airports or the kind of anti-Muslim, anti-Arab, and then just anti-Brown, anti-Black racism that they have faced in the country since that time, they no longer have those same feelings. I do think though that, of course, there is this economy that many people feel like they can enter into and that they can
achieved some kind of new life. And I think that a lot of them, because I've spoken to Turkish people who have done this even, who have gone through Mexico, through the border, once they get here, they realize that it's not what they thought it was going to be. But the power of our myths, the soft power that we exported after 1945 has been extraordinary. And it continues to work.
Well, so here's the question, du jour, right? Once American exceptionalism is lost, whether in perception or reality, and let's put current politics aside, can it be regained? Can we climb back and be that shining city on a hill if ever we were?
So I think that American exceptionalism has continued to be very present, both in Democratic and Republican administrations. And I think that what we're seeing with
And that's basically what I'm talking about there is the power structure, okay? Because this is the way that people, politicians hold us together is by, and it's also the way that we continue to exert our power in the world. I mean, you have to have a belief that there is some reason why you should be the country that is dominating the planet or that is
having just a tremendous amount of power over other countries and other peoples. But the question is, do we want it? I mean, is this really the best ideology and the best philosophy for a people to have? Because it is inevitably disappointing. It is something that increasingly as we have the situation where you no longer are going to make more money than your father or your mother did.
The promise of America in that way is dying. So I think that the one way to look at this, and it could be even an encouraging and an optimistic way, is to think, what are our values? What are the important things that we want to still take with us? And what are the things that we have to just face in a more realistic way, or that we might have to change? And I think that the only way that can happen is if there is just a lot more honesty about our history and about who we are.
And I think that we also need leaders then who are going to be constructive about making changes. And I think unfortunately, you know, we're getting a mixed bag with that part of things.
It feels like the other side of this is not who we are or this is not America is that can't happen here. And I wonder if you think American exceptionalism and this idea being so deeply embedded into our culture makes people complacent about some of the risks that are pretty visible in our political system right now.
Absolutely, because if you believe something is inherent to the country where you live, right? Like something that is, it is just part of the soil and the water. This is who we are. We are special. We are unique. We are on this trajectory. Things will all work out.
I think that, of course, you're not going to face, you're not going to be able to compare yourself to other countries. I mean, there are a lot of other examples that we could be looking at now that might potentially predict our own future, or at least help us think about things in a new way. And I really think we need that help right now. But I think that, yes, I think that it's a complacency, it's a
a sense that, I mean, look, I think to some degrees, why September 11th came as such a shock, because we had never experienced something like that before. And then we completely overreached in our response. And I think that we're also having this problem now of
What is possible to happen here with our democratic system? Is it just that it is inherently ironclad and that it is always going to work for the best for us? I think that you're absolutely right, that people are not really prepared for what could possibly happen. Is there another country, do you suppose, Susie, that whether real or perceived American exceptionalism as a historical artifact? Do you suppose there's another country that
fits the bill that also has a kind of that is exceptional yeah that you know i mean look where believe it or not and whether it was good first or not there was a period where you know america was was sort of the the global oh my goodness let's go to american be americans and blah blah blah and and that's not the case anymore i guess uh is there somebody coming in behind to fill the gap
Well, I think that this is something so interesting, right, which is that I think that American exceptionalism is quite unique to the history and experience of the US. I think that you had other empires, right, and that, you know, the way that European empires, for example,
Um, yeah, conducted themselves in foreign issues was to rule them, you know, it was to they thought that they were better than these other people. They thought that they, you know, they would kind of enslave them or rule them or put them to work, whatever, but they were ruling them. They weren't imagining that those people could become like themselves, right? They were trying to civilize them, but there was always a sense that we are going to, you know, be the rulers and the ones on top.
The Americans after 1945, when they kind of took over this imperial system to some degree, they didn't go in and colonize people, right? But they were exporting ideas. And there was this belief that everyone was just going to think, well, we want to be like America. I mean, they had such a deep belief. And we're just going to kind of help you along. We're going to encourage you with our same economic system. We're going to encourage you with some of the basic ways that we conduct our culture. There were even ideas back then about, you know,
all of these nations like Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, these places that we got involved with in the 40s and 50s and 60s, we're going to teach the people that it's important to be on time. We're going to impress upon them to turn away from farming and agriculture and industrialize and move everyone to the cities. But there was also a sense that people will just want to adopt this way of life and our culture, exactly who we were. And I think you have to ask, do you see China, for example, doing that?
Do you see it in quite the same way? And I think that the argument for now would be no. There's a kind of involvement in building infrastructure in countries. I mean, they're doing lots of negative things in a lot of these countries as well.
They're creating a tremendous amount of debt for these countries. But people don't feel as if they're having their culture changed. And I think the question is, why did the Americans feel that way? But I think that part of the very interesting myth that was exported to the world was that if you come here, you're going to have every opportunity and you will be able to define yourself and you will have every freedom. And I think that the deeper question is, is any of that really true?
So let's say somebody's listening to this and they believe you that American exceptionalism was never really real when it's probably not the best for us. What is the new lens through which to view our country and still be proud?
I mean, it's a very good question. We're moving into this new phase and this new era. The era of nationalism was the 20th century, mostly. And everyone's subscribed to the idea of the nation and it was our country. And that's how we identified ourselves. And now we're in its globalization and the internet and migration. And all of these identities are up for grabs.
I do think that it takes probably a new movement or it probably in some ways. I mean, unfortunately, what we're seeing is there's one personality. There's one politician who is asserting these ideas very, very strongly and people start grasping for that.
But I think there has to be something that is way more collective, obviously, that is a different kind of movement that is saying to people, like, yes, it's okay to love, obviously, it's good to love your country, it's good to believe in these things, these values that we share, but we're not going to necessarily try to push them on other people or we're not going to wage wars in order to bring our way of life to them. And we are instead going to focus on improving things.
at home for our own people. I mean, that's just, there are many, many ideas here that we could go, directions we could go. But I think the problem is no one has really come up with one yet. Work to be done then, I guess. Susie Hanson, journalist and author of Notes on a Foreign Country, An American Abroad and a Post-American World. Susie, thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Thank you so much for having me. It was great. Yeah.
I'm really interested in what a different lens is, because as I was listening to her talk, it's baked in to how, at least I've been brought up to think about being an American. And I don't know, I'm trying to shift my brain out of that, and I don't even know how to do it, because it's so baked in. I'll ask my kids, actually.
You know, sort of the sweet spot mid-range of my kid's age, that's 17 to 26. So I'll ask the 23-year-old, see what he says. He is also just a deeply cynical guy. But that's a whole different conversation. I mean, as when you were in the military, I mean, this is kind of foundational. That was a whole thing. Yeah, you bet. You bet. Right? Yep. I mean, do you think it's something you could ever let go of? No, not a chance. Not a chance. Would you want to?
No, it's, it looked, that's, it's, uh, no. I mean, it's, it goes back to what I said Friday a week ago, right? I'm not leaving. America's worth fighting for, and I'm not taking off, right? Whatever happens to this country is going to happen with me in it fighting for, you know, the way I believe America ought to be in the world, you know? Yeah. Anyway.
Yeah. We are so curious to hear your thoughts on this. Do you think, what do you think about American exceptionalism? Do you think it was ever real? Should it be our mindset? Is it on the decline? Is it a myth? Let us know what you think. 508 827 6278, also known as 508 UV Smart. We'll be right back.
Money, money, money. Kids always have questions about it, and maybe you do too. That's why Million Bazillion, the Webby Winning Podcast from Marketplace, is here to answer the awkward and sometimes surprising questions your kids have about money. We explain concepts like savings accounts, retirement, and the differences between brand names and non-brand names.
million bazillion is the place for you and your kids to learn about money together we help dollars make more sense get it listen to million bazillion wherever you get your podcasts all right we shall do some news as we do on a Tuesday Kimberly Adams go ahead
uh... so they had a very late night in the senate last night uh... with senate democrats staying up super late trying to push through nomination biden's nominations to the federal judiciary and get as many of those through as possible why are they up so late because republicans are making them go through every single procedural motion they possibly can to slow these things down but uh... the senate is likely going to be doing
late night votes, weekend votes, because they're trying to get Phil basically every vacant position in the federal judiciary before Trump comes into office. And it really highlights that I think a lot of the political and policy battles in the coming administration are going to play out in the courts.
and whether it be the legality of mass deportations, the legality of putting somebody shutting down cabinet departments and things like that, and states challenging various federal regulations and things like that. Federal judiciary is going to be playing a very
potent role in the coming administration. And you can see that the Democrats are doing what they can to shape what those fights are going to look like. And that sort of leads me to my other story, which I had a story in the Hill about that, but it's everywhere. But there's a story in Politico about how the EU is preparing for the incoming Trump administration.
And it's about how they're preparing for potential tariffs. And what they are trying to do is make sure that they have the systems in place so that a threat of retaliation would be real and meaningful to Trump.
because, you know, Trump is potentially going to put, you know, across the board tariffs on things or threaten to do it in order to make other countries come to the table to make a deal. And so they are trying to line up their stuff
So that, as I'm going to read a quote here, because if negotiations fail and if the United States feels we won't have a credible retaliation option, then we are not going to go anywhere. And so they are already lining up what kind of stuff they may target, you know, whether it would be like in the last round when Trump was in office the first time you saw tariffs on Harley-Davidson motorcycles, Zippo-Lighters, Levi jeans and bourbon.
And so maybe we'd see something similar this time around and these sort of markers of America and the American culture that we explored as we were just talking about. And so it's just been fascinating to sort of watch both here in the United States in what states are doing. I read an article that Oregon is stockpiling abortion pills or Mepipurstone in preparation for
potentially the FDA pulling the authority on that as well under Trump administration. So it's interesting watching how all of these different entities are preparing for Trump administration.
yeah yeah uh... so mine is uh... yet another lesson that uh... politician statements and policy promises are all in good but you cannot screw with the markets specifically i'm talking about oil and gas the president has said he want the president like rather has said he wants to frack frack frack or drill baby drill take your picky he said them many times on the stump uh... but much as he promised in his first term to revive coal
And coal production now has been down three percent year on year for a very long time. The United States and the globe are facing a glut of petroleum products and the likelihood that anybody who is financially interested versus politically interested
in producing more oil and gas is going to actually want to drill more is zero. And I would just point you today to an article on Wall Street Journal, oil glut set to thwart Trump's call to frack, frack, frack. You cannot screw with the markets. Full stop. Bloomberg today. Sorry, Bloomberg, Bloomberg, my bad.
All right, that is it for the news. Let's move on to the mailbag. Hi, Kimberly. This is Bernadette from Atlanta, Georgia. Dan from Boulder, Colorado. I have a bunch of questions. I love the show. Y'all are awesome and nerd it out.
So our guest's title for her book was an American Abroad in a Post-American World. And we have been hearing from quite a few of our listeners abroad about what it's been like to watch the election ends aftermath from outside the US. So let's hear from Chris, who lives with his family in Ireland.
We moved here from San Francisco in 2022 to open up a taco truck. This is my second presidential election watching from afar. I can tell you now the feelings are much different. Whether that be a decade and a half of perspective or learning to me, America has never been exceptional. That's because I've had the privilege of seeing the world and living abroad. My grandparents were immigrants. My dad was too. So am I. Although our circumstances are much different, we are still seeking a better, safer life.
Yes, this is interesting. And I think you and I have talked about this. There are things you can learn and observe about this country only by living outside this country. And I think that's exactly what Chris is talking about here, right? When you're here, you just can't see it. And I think that's a critical sort of perspective that I wish more people had.
Yeah, and it really sucks that it is a privileged thing to do. It's expensive to travel abroad, but especially if you're trying to live abroad, what you really need to do, you need to be someplace a while to kind of snap your brain out of where you are. And it does take a lot.
Yeah. Yeah. All right, one more. I have on occasion on this podcast brought up my thoughts about mandatory military service, government service, some sort of national service requirement. Ken in Austin, Texas wrote this.
I often ponder what the tangible and intangible effects would be of requiring one year of service from every American. In times of war, it's possible that they could then be deployed for active duty. But in the far more common scenario where there is not a need for active duty military personnel, they would be deployed in other roles of service to the nation, such as undertaking deferred maintenance in our national parks.
I feel like such a program could instill a recognition of service as a core value in our diverse democracy. So two things. Number one, boy, that guy sounds a lot like Austin Goolsbee, the head of the Chicago Fed. Maybe that's just me. Number two, I've got a whole speech I give on this on how part of what ails this body politic in this society, part, a part, is a lack of shared and common experiences, one of which is national service. So yeah, I agree with what Ken has to say.
I mean, look at South Korea and there are plenty of countries that do a version of this and there are so many projects that could be done and improved if we had that. I think it's a great idea.
Before we go, we are going to leave you with this week's answer to the Make Me Smart question, which is what something you thought you knew, but later found out you were wrong about. And this week's answer comes from Gilded Daniels, a civil rights lawyer and a law professor at the University of Baltimore. As a former Department of Justice Deputy Chief, I worked with colleagues who had been in the government for decades, some as far back as the Carter administration.
One sentiment that they all had was that any administration would only last either four or eight years. Essentially, the impact of an administration would not impair the institutions established under the Constitution.
However, appointing three Supreme Court justices and almost a third of the federal judiciary in one term completely upended the sanctity and impartiality of the federal court system. Indeed, we have seen what appears to be partisan decisions on critical issues such as affirmative action, reproductive rights, congressional and executive authority.
Which is why Chuck Schumer and his buddies were up late last night. And we'll be up late many nights. That is exactly right. What is something you thought you knew but later found out you were wrong about huh? Leave us a voice message at 508 27 6278 508 UBS M A R T is another way to dial those numbers.
Make Me Smart is produced by Courtney Bergseeker. Ellen Rolfis writes our newsletter. Today's program was engineered by Juan Carlos Tarrado with Mixing by Drew Jostad. Ben Talladein, Daniel Ramirez, composed our theme music. Our senior producer is Marissa Cabrera-Bridget Bodner. His director of podcast, Francesca Levy, is the executive director of digital. And because this is Tuesday and not any other day of the week, although he is in the office today, so maybe he'll listen. I don't know. Marketplace Vice President, general manager, Ms. Neil Scarborough.
Money, money, money. Kids always have questions about it, and maybe you do too. That's why Million Bazillion, the Webby Winning Podcast from Marketplace, is here to answer the awkward and sometimes surprising questions your kids have about money. We explain concepts like savings accounts, retirement, and the differences between brand names and non-brand names.
million bazillion is the place for you and your kids to learn about money together we help dollars make more sense get it listen to million bazillion wherever you get your podcasts