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    Teresa Torres on how to interview customers, automating continuous discovery, the opportunity solution tree framework, making the case for user research, common interviewing mistakes, and much more

    enJune 30, 2022
    Who is Teresa Torres and what is her expertise?
    What is the opportunity solution tree framework discussed in the podcast?
    Why is continuous discovery important in product management?
    How can product teams conduct user interviews more efficiently?
    What should product managers do to remain open-minded about solutions?

    Podcast Summary

    • Understanding Customer Needs and Automating Research in Product Management with Teresa TorresProduct managers should prioritize customer research and understand their needs and wants to build successful products. The opportunity solution tree framework offers a structured approach to product development. Persona and Dovetail offer tools for KYC/AML and user research to help facilitate the process.

      Teresa Torres is a highly recommended book author, product coach, consultant, and speaker who has worked with over 12,000 product managers.In this podcast, she talks about the opportunity solution tree framework and delves into customer research and ways to automate it.She emphasizes the importance of understanding what customers need and want and how to give it to them in product management.Two sponsors, Persona and Dovetail offer KYC and AML solutions and user research tools respectively, to help build better products.

    • A visual framework for product teams to prioritize outcomes first and build purposeful solutions.Teresa Torres' Opportunity Solution Tree Framework helps teams frame problems well by starting with an outcome at the root and building towards solutions. It shifts teams from output to outcome and prioritizes purposeful solutions over just features.

      Teresa Torres discusses her opportunity solution tree framework which is a simple visual tree that helps product teams to make a shift from focusing on output to outcome.This framework adds structure to the wide open, messy problem of figuring out what to build by starting with an outcome as the root of the tree and branching into the opportunity space and then into solutions.The purpose of this framework is to help teams really take the time to frame a problem well before jumping to solutions.Despite its simplicity, using this framework can be complex and challenging for product teams who are used to being told to build features instead of focusing on outcomes.

    • Creating a Seamless Streaming Experience with an Experience MapTo provide a better streaming experience, companies can use an experience map to identify key moments and user needs. Breaking the opportunity space down into smaller levers allows for continuous product improvement.

      To improve the user experience for streaming entertainment, companies should structure their opportunity space using an experience map.This map should include the distinct moments in time when users are deciding what to watch, evaluating content, and engaging with the platform.By understanding the needs, pain points, and desires that arise in each of these moments, companies can create a seamless experience that caters to their users' preferences.The opportunity space should be broken down into three to seven levers, with opportunities getting smaller as the tree is further deconstructed.This approach can help companies continuously improve their products and better meet the needs of their customers.

    • The Importance of Identifying Small Opportunities in Product DevelopmentTo develop a successful product, it's essential to evaluate the problem from a big picture perspective, break it down into smaller opportunities, and gather customer stories to identify their needs and desires. By framing specific opportunities, you can provide customer-focused solutions.

      In product development, it's important to evaluate a problem through a big picture view and then break it down into smaller opportunities that can be addressed.This approach allows for more strategic decision-making and a customer-focused solution.To identify these opportunities, it's crucial to collect rich stories from customers through effective interviewing skills.These stories can reveal unmet needs, pain points, and desires, even those the customer may not be aware of.Additionally, opportunities should be framed specifically, such as addressing the difficulty of entering a password on a streaming platform.

    • Focusing on Solving Pain Points in Product DiscoveryRather than simply improving ease of use, product teams should identify and address specific pain points facing customers. With critical thinking and audience understanding, even companies with fixed roadmaps can benefit from an outcome-oriented approach.

      Teresa Torres, a product discovery coach, encourages teams to focus on solving specific pain points rather than just making a product easier to use.To do this, teams need to develop skills in identifying opportunities and framing them in a way that solves a problem for a specific target audience.It requires critical thinking, deep understanding of customer needs, and the ability to structure opportunity space.Companies with a fixed roadmap can still adopt an outcome-oriented approach by changing the way individual contributors work and finding customers to talk to, even if not officially allowed to.Taking this approach can lead to better products and outcomes for the business.

    • The Importance of Continuous Discovery for Digital Product DevelopmentContinuous discovery involves gathering customer feedback to improve product decisions as customer needs are always changing. Build in feedback loops and assumption testing to implement this process and make better decisions through developing good habits.

      Continuous discovery is a process of continuously gathering feedback from customers and using that feedback to make better decisions about what to build.It's important because digital products are never done, and customer needs are always evolving.To implement continuous discovery, it's essential to build in continuous feedback loops and make assumptions testing part of the delivery process.Even if leaders don't make time for discovery, it's still possible to incorporate it into your work through as little as an interview a week or by integrating assumption testing into delivery.Empower yourself to make better decisions by focusing on developing good habits.

    • Making Better Bets through Daily DiscoveryEmbedding discovery activities into daily work improves product development by making better bets over time. Including teams already interacting with potential users and automating recruiting processes can make it easier to adopt discovery behavior.

      Discovery is essential for making better bets in product development, but it can be challenging to find time for it.Teresa Torres recommends embedding discovery activities into daily work instead of treating them as separate phases.Everything in a backlog is a bet, whether or not discovery has been done.The benefit of always doing both discovery and delivery is that over time, better bets are made.Automating the recruiting process for user interviews, such as through NPS surveys, can make it easier to adopt the behavior than to skip it.Involving internal teams that are already interacting with potential users can also be effective.

    • Streamlining User Feedback: Tools and Best Practices for Product TeamsUtilize multiple user feedback solutions to assess level of risk and measure impact. Remain open-minded and adaptable to evolving ideas. Avoid overcommitting to one approach by evaluating pros and cons.

      There are many tools available for product teams to easily conduct user interviews and surveys without needing to be directly involved in the scheduling or implementation process.However, not all solutions require extensive discovery and it is important to assess the level of risk involved in each bet and measure the impact of any solutions released.It is also recommended to work with multiple solutions for core product functionality in order to evaluate pros and cons and avoid overcommitting to one approach.While PMs may have opinions about the right answer, it is important to remain open-minded and allow for ideas to change and evolve.

    • Collaboration: Learning from KindergartnersCollaboration is hindered by the focus on territorial defense in functional silos. A well-functioning trio of a product manager, designer, and software engineer can achieve shared understanding and promote collaboration. Businesses need to unlearn and learn new ways of working. Simplify interviews to avoid unnecessary hurdles.

      Collaboration is key to building better products, but the focus on defending territories in functional silos often hinders collaboration.We can learn from kindergartners who focus on brute force trial and error and just do instead of wasting time negotiating social spaces.Well-functioning trios, consisting of a product manager, designer, and software engineer, can work together to achieve a shared understanding, reducing disagreements and promoting collaboration.It's a symptom of business culture that we need to unlearn and learn new ways of working.During interviews, avoid using long question protocols and remember that you're just talking to a human.

    • The Importance of Open-Ended Questions and CuriosityIn an interview, avoid just asking questions, but have a natural conversation. Ask open-ended questions, be curious, listen and summarize. Collect valuable information and gain insights from the interviewee's story.

      In an interview, it's important to have a natural conversation rather than just asking a bunch of questions.By asking open-ended questions and being curious about the interviewee's story, you can collect valuable information you wouldn't have thought to ask about.You can even run an entire interview by just asking one question and then being curious about their experience.It's also important to listen to the interviewee and summarize what you've heard to show that you're interested in their story.By collecting stories in your interviews, you can gain valuable insights and customers may even enjoy the experience.

    • Focusing on User Behavior: The Key to Successful Product DevelopmentTo develop successful products, teams must prioritize understanding and changing user behavior over relying on what users say they would do. Small experiments can yield reliable data and should be used in conjunction with user research.

      Product teams should focus on understanding and changing user behavior instead of relying on what users say they would do.In an ideal world, the process of developing a product does not change as a company grows from early to later stages.However, in larger companies, there may be adjacent teams and dependencies to manage, but the fundamental base unit remains the same.When it comes to the validity of small data, the product world is held to a different standard than other businesses.But small experiments can be used to collect reliable data over time.Experiments and user research should be considered together, as experiments are also a form of user research.

    • Qualitative Interviewing and Assumption Testing for Sustainable DiscoveryConducting qualitative interviews and testing assumptions can help prioritize ideas and run small, continuous tests. This approach can improve discovery and prevent costly experiments.

      To improve discovery, Teresa Torres recommends two core activities: qualitative interviewing and assumption testing.Qualitative interviewing is used to learn about opportunities such as unmet needs and pain points, while assumptions testing is used to evaluate solutions based on specific assumptions.Breaking down ideas into underlying assumptions and prioritizing them can help teams run tests that are small enough to test each assumption.By doing so, teams can sustain continuous discovery and run half a dozen to a dozen assumption tests per week.This shift in behavior can make discovery more sustainable and prevent running time-consuming experiments that cost too much money.

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    The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)

    The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)

    Camille Fournier is the author of The Manager’s Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating one’s career path in tech. Camille was previously the CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma, and Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase. She is about to release new newest book, Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • What product managers do that annoys engineers

    • Why major rewrites are a trap

    • Why you should have fewer one-on-ones

    • Strategies for organizing and working with platform teams

    • Tips for new managers

    • Advice for transitioning from individual contributor to manager

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    DX—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity

    CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineering-leadership-camille-fournier

    Where to find Camille Fournier:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camille-fournier-9011812/

    • Website: https://skamille.medium.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Camille’s background

    (02:17) Common annoyances between PMs and engineers

    (07:09) Avoiding the telephone game

    (08:05) Hoarding ideas and over-engineering

    (09:55) The importance of involving engineers in ideation

    (11:37) The middle-person dilemma

    (14:21) Rewriting systems: a big trap?

    (20:40) Engineering leadership lessons

    (36:02) Moving from IC to management

    (40:32) One-on-one meetings

    (45:10) Pushing beyond comfort zones

    (45:27) Building a balanced work culture

    (48:01) Effective time management strategies

    (54:15) Advice for platform team success

    (01:02:42) Platform team responsibilities

    (01:04:43) When to form a platform team

    (01:07:02) Thriving on a platform team

    (01:12:48) AI corner

    (01:17:03) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/Platform-Engineering-Technical-Product-Leaders/dp/1098153642/

    The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change: https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897

    97 Things Every Engineering Manager Should Know: Collective Wisdom from the Experts: https://www.amazon.com/Things-Every-Engineering-Manager-Should/dp/1492050903

    • Avoiding the Rewrite Trap: https://skamille.medium.com/avoiding-the-rewrite-trap-b1283b8dd39e

    • Levelsio on X: https://x.com/levelsio

    • Pieter Levels on the Lex Fridman Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg

    • GraphQL: https://graphql.org/

    New Blue Sun by André 3000 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/33Ek6daAL3oXyQIV1uoItD

    • Musk’s 5 Steps to Cut Internal Bureaucracy at Tesla and SpaceX: https://icecreates.com/insight/musk-s-5-steps-to-cut-internal-bureaucracy-at-tesla-and-spacex-you-may-say-it-s-his-algorithm/

    • Ian Nowland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inowland/

    • Studio Pulls ‘Megalopolis’ Trailer Using Fake Quotes from Famed Movie Critics: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/studio-pulls-megalopolis-trailer-using-fake-quotes-from-famed-movie-critics_n_66c74046e4b0f1ca469413c7

    • Claude 2: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-2

    What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful: https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1401301304

    When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438

    Alien: Romulus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18412256/

    • Whoop: https://www.whoop.com

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more | Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)

    Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more | Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)

    Phyl Terry is the author of Never Search Alone, which I’ve seen so many people reference as the most impactful guide they read for finding a job. Phyl was on the founding team of the first company Amazon acquired back in the ’90s and then was CEO of pioneering product consulting firm Creative Good, with companies like Apple, Facebook, and Microsoft as customers. Today, Phyl is the founder and CEO of Collaborative Gain, which 20 years ago pioneered bringing councils to senior product leaders and GMs in Silicon Valley. That’s their day job—in addition to that, Phyl runs a free global community for job seekers based on their latest book. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why you should never search for a job alone

    • How job search councils work

    • How to determine your “candidate-market fit”

    • How to conduct a listening tour

    • Creating your job mission and OKRs

    • How to negotiate job offers

    • The art of asking for help

    • Tactics for effective networking and interviewing

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers

    Sprig—Build products for people, not data points

    Dovetail—The customer insights hub for product teams

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/land-your-dream-phyl-terry

    Where to find Phyl Terry:

    • X: https://x.com/phylterry

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phylterry/

    • Website: https://www.phyl.org/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Phyl’s background

    (01:58) The concept of job search councils

    (04:27) The power of community in job searching

    (08:55) The scale and structure of job search councils

    (12:27) The impact of job search councils

    (20:19) The concept of candidate-market fit

    (22:50) Writing a Mnookin two-pager

    (24:37) Conducting listening tours

    (30:12) Creating a focused candidate-market fit

    (36:20) Advice on finding the right stage of company for you

    (40:37) Identifying your unique path

    (45:30) Navigating tough job markets

    (49:07) Playing to win

    (53:36) Negotiation tactics for job offers

    (01:05:12) The gratitude house exercise

    (01:10:48) The power of asking for help

    (01:19:18) How to ask for help

    (01:28:40) Final thoughts and advice

    (01:38:21) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn)

    How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn)

    Tomer Cohen is the chief product officer at LinkedIn, responsible for setting the company’s product strategy, leading product development, user experience design, business development, content creation, and customer operations. He also hosts the Building One podcast, where he interviews exceptional builders across various disciplines. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • How LinkedIn transformed its feed into an engaging content and social platform

    • Tomer’s famous “We might be wrong, but we are not confused” mantra

    • The importance of conviction and passion in product leadership

    • LinkedIn’s approach to experimenting with and implementing AI features

    • Lessons from Tomer’s rapid career progression at LinkedIn

    • Strategies for embracing AI in product development

    Brought to you by:

    Gamma—A new way to present, powered by AI

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen

    Where to find Tomer Cohen:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomercohen/

    • Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-one-with-tomer-cohen/id1726672498

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Introduction to Tomer Cohen and his role at LinkedIn

    (02:28) The mantra “We might be wrong, but we are not confused”

    (06:45) Clarity of thought and focus

    (13:03) Setting ambitious goals and overdelivering

    (16:18) Transforming LinkedIn’s feed: strategy and execution

    (22:03) Running experiments at scale

    (26:24) Goal setting and identifying opportunities 

    (30:58) AI’s role in LinkedIn’s evolution

    (35:38) The AI-first mindset at LinkedIn

    (35:38) Developing an AI-first mindset

    (44:49) Letting go of your roadmaps and allowing room for exploration

    (49:12) Career growth and personal insights

    (55:01) Takeaways

    (56:39) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The original growth hacker reveals his secrets | Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”)

    The original growth hacker reveals his secrets | Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”)

    Sean Ellis is one of the earliest and most influential thinkers and operators in growth. He coined the term “growth hacking,” invented the ICE prioritization framework, was one of the earliest people to use freemium as a growth lever, and, most famously, developed the Sean Ellis Test for product-market fit (which a large percentage of founders use today to track if they’ve found PMF). Over the course of his career, Sean was head of growth at Dropbox and Eventbrite; helped companies like Microsoft and Nubank refine their growth strategy; was on the founding team of LogMeIn, which sold for over $4 billion; and is the author of one of the most popular growth books of all time, Hacking Growth, which has sold over 750,000 copies. In our conversation, he shares:

    • The proper use of the Sean Ellis Test for measuring product-market fit

    • How to increase your activation and retention rates

    • How to select the right North Star metric for your business

    • Case studies from his work growing Dropbox and other products

    • How growth strategy has changed over the past decade

    • How AI is impacting growth efforts

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Gamma—A new way to present, powered by AI

    CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users

    Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-original-growth-hacker-sean-ellis

    Where to find Sean Ellis:

    • X: https://x.com/seanellis

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanellis/

    • Website: https://www.seanellis.me/

    • Substack: https://substack.com/@seanellis

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Sean’s background

    (02:18) The Sean Ellis test explained

    (06:28) The 40% rule

    (08:06) Case study: improving product-market fit

    (12:34) Understanding and leveraging customer feedback

    (16:50) Challenges and nuances of product-market fit

    (22:22) When to use the Sean Ellis Test

    (23:46) When not to use the Sean Ellis Test and other caveats

    (27:13) Defining your own threshold and how the Sean Ellis Test came about

    (36:13) Tools for implementing the survey 

    (37:30) Transitioning from surveys to retention cohorts

    (39:13) Nubank’s approach

    (40:18) Case study: Superhuman’s strategy for increasing product-market fit

    (45:18) Coining the term “growth hacking”

    (48:24) How to approach growth

    (57:25) Improving activation and onboarding

    (01:05:17) Identifying effective growth channels

    (01:10:28) The power of customer conversations

    (01:12:43) Developing the Dropbox referral program

    (01:14:47) The importance of word of mouth

    (01:15:23) Freemium models and engagement

    (01:19:21) Picking a North Star metric

    (01:24:30) The evolution of growth strategies

    (01:27:12) The ICE and RICE frameworks

    (01:30:11) AI’s role in growth and experimentation

    (01:32:52) Final thoughts and lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Airbnb’s Vlad Loktev on embracing chaos, inquiry over advocacy, poking the bear, and “impact, impact, impact” (Partner at Index Ventures, Airbnb GM/VP Product)

    Airbnb’s Vlad Loktev on embracing chaos, inquiry over advocacy, poking the bear, and “impact, impact, impact” (Partner at Index Ventures, Airbnb GM/VP Product)

    Vlad Loktev spent 10 years at Airbnb, where he started as an IC PM and quickly advanced to lead the core Airbnb marketplace business and then GM the entire homes business, managing over 1,000 people and reporting directly to CEO Brian Chesky. He recently left Airbnb and joined Index Ventures as their newest partner. Vlad was my manager at Airbnb for many years, and is the person I credit most for teaching me how to be a great product manager. Prior to Airbnb, Vlad spent a year at Zynga, where he helped grow Words with Friends to over 14 million daily active users. In our conversation, Vlad shares:

    • Insight into Brian Chesky’s leadership style

    • Why success as a PM is all about impact, impact, impact

    • Why chaos can be good

    • Why as a leader it’s OK to let some fires burn

    • Why you should learn to “poke the bear”

    • Balancing product release speed with quality

    • Lessons on prioritization, decision-making, and organizational design

    • Advice for founders on building company culture

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/impact-impact-impact-vlad-loktev

    Where to find Vlad Loktev:

    • X: https://x.com/vladimirloktev

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vladimirloktev/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Vlad’s background

    (02:54) Reflecting on transformative years at Airbnb

    (04:28) Skills and mindsets for success

    (11:03) Impact-driven mindset

    (13:16) Saying no and inquiry before advocacy 

    (17:54) “Poking the bear”

    (22:46) Psychological tools for leadership

    (30:08) Building and scaling teams

    (36:12) Letting fires burn

    (47:34) Embracing chaos

    (54:40) The unsell email strategy

    (01:02:01) Finding your place in an organization

    (01:05:38) The importance of company culture

    (01:13:16) Airbnb’s unique approach to product management

    (01:26:41) Failure corner

    (01:31:32) Lightning round and final thoughts

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor)

    How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor)

    Nikita Bier is one of the most in-demand consumer, social, and growth experts in the world. He’s the co-founder of TBH (sold to Meta for more than $30 million) and Gas (sold to Discord for millions more) and has helped more consumer apps that have hit #1 in the app stores than any other person I’ve come across. He currently spends his time advising founders on growth, product, and design and is an investor and advisor to some of the best consumer tech companies, including Flo, Locket, Eight Sleep, Citizen, BeReal, Captions, and more. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The inside story of how TBH and Gas achieved explosive growth

    • Strategies for building viral consumer apps

    • Why teens are such a great audience

    • Fighting the human trafficking hoax at Gas

    • The challenge of creating durable social products

    • His experience working as a PM at Facebook

    • Advice for founders on building consumer apps

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Book Nikita for 1:1 consultation/mentoring: https://intro.co/NikitaBier

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-consistently-go-viral-nikita-bier

    Where to find Nikita Bier:

    • X: https://x.com/nikitabier 

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@nikitabier

    • Website: https://intro.co/NikitaBier

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Nikita’s background 

    (06:08) Nikita’s early ventures: Politify and Outline

    (08:42) Transition to consumer apps

    (13:45) The birth of TBH

    (16:43) Building for teens vs. adults

    (20:00) TBH’s viral success

    (32:18) Leveraging live chat

    (34:08) Lasting lessons from TBH

    (37:00) Selling TBH to Facebook

    (42:19) Big-tech product management

    (48:46) Nikita on why “product management is not real”

    (51:49) The Tim Cook painting story

    (53:53) Leaving Facebook and starting a new venture

    (58:02) Rebuilding TBH and overcoming challenges

    (59:46) Addressing criticism

    (01:04:24) The human trafficking hoax

    (01:09:51) Selling to Discord and lessons learned

    (01:11:36) Lasting lessons from Gas

    (01:13:14) Building durable consumer apps

    (01:22:35) The VC route

    (01:23:27) Contact permissions in iOS 18

    (01:26:53) The success of Dupe

    (01:31:53) Advice for startup founders

    (01:34:14) Work with Nikita

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Succeeding as an introvert, building zero-to-one, and why you should PM your career like you PM your product | Deb Liu (CEO of Ancestry, ex-Facebook, PayPal, eBay)

    Succeeding as an introvert, building zero-to-one, and why you should PM your career like you PM your product | Deb Liu (CEO of Ancestry, ex-Facebook, PayPal, eBay)

    Deb Liu is the CEO of Ancestry and former longtime VP of Product at Facebook. At Facebook, Deb led the creation of Facebook Marketplace, developed the first mobile ad product for apps, built the company’s games business, and launched Facebook Pay. She’s also held leadership roles at PayPal and eBay, serves on the board of Intuit, and is the author of Take Back Your Power. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why you should PM your career like you PM your product

    • Strategies for incubating new products within large companies

    • Creating a successful 30-60-90-day plan when starting a new job

    • The pitfalls of perfectionism

    • The challenges introverts face in the workplace and how to overcome them

    • The value of resilience and turning failures into stepping stones

    • How to leverage coaching in your career development

    Brought to you by:

    Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/succeeding-as-an-introvert-deb-liu

    Where to find Deb Liu:

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@debliu

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborahliu

    • Substack: https://debliu.substack.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Introduction to Deb Liu

    (02:18) Deb’s career journey and key advice

    (09:45) Navigating new roles and challenges

    (11:27) Overcoming adversity and failure

    (15:07) Building billion-dollar businesses at Facebook

    (19:33) Strategies for zero-to-one innovation

    (23:40) PM your career like a product

    (33:53) Challenges and strategies for introverts in business

    (39:19) Reframing self-promotion

    (42:25) The power of accountability

    (46:15) Growth: a game of inches

    (50:52) The 30-60-90-day plan

    (56:52) Contrarian corner: career and marriage

    (58:57) Final nuggets of wisdom

    (01:03:09) How to find a coach

    (01:04:47) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)

    Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny)

    Kevin Yien leads product for merchant experiences at Stripe. Before that, he meandered his way from being a technical designer to a product manager, built the restaurants business and ecosystem team at Square, and most recently was head of product and design at Mutiny. He also makes ice cream and teaches for fun. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why aspiring PMs should start in engineering, design, or sales

    • The importance of writing skills, and how to become a better writer

    • How to automate user research

    • Kevin’s “unsell email” technique for hiring

    • The value of keeping a decision log

    • Insights on AI and its impact on future generations

    • Lessons from failure

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unorthodox-pm-wisdom-kevin-yien

    Where to find Kevin Yien:

    • X: https://x.com/kevinyien

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinyien/

    • Website: https://kevinyien.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Kevin’s background 

    (02:00) The story behind Kevin’s profile picture

    (08:41) The role of a product manager

    (10:48) Getting started in product management

    (12:47) The importance of writing skills

    (15:06) Becoming a better writer

    (19:10) The PM’s role with engineering and design

    (28:41) Drawing the perimeter for your team

    (31:37) Feedback tips

    (35:13) Decision logs and product sense

    (45:36) Unorthodox hiring strategies

    (47:01) The unsell email strategy

    (54:01) Automating user research

    (01:02:27) AI in everyday life

    (01:06:05) Lessons from failure

    (01:14:34) Lightning round

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences)

    Evan LaPointe is the founder of CORE Sciences, which teaches companies and individuals how our brains work and how that translates to improved collaboration, better products, faster decision-making, and more growth. Previously, Evan was the co-founder of Satellite, the fourth-largest analytics company on the internet today (it mostly runs behind the scenes, and pretty much everyone listening will have used it today without knowing it), which was acquired by Adobe, where he later ran product strategy, innovation, and long-range thinking for Adobe’s digital experiences business. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • The three different systems of the brain

    • How knowing this can help you become more influential

    • How understanding different brain states will help you increase productivity and creativity

    • How to improve your vision and strategy skills

    • How to design a work environment that fosters innovation

    • How to build better relationships at work

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product

    Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/understanding-your-brain-evan-lapointe

    Where to find Evan LaPointe:

    • X: https://x.com/evanlapointe

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanlapointe/

    • Website: https://www.core-sciences.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Evan’s background

    (02:37) Understanding the brain’s complex systems

    (07:17) The three core brain systems: safety, reward, and purpose

    (11:03) Applying brain science to team dynamics

    (14:27) The role of personality in team performance

    (17:27) Creating effective work environments

    (23:16) The science of meetings and decision-making

    (29:35) Enhancing strategy and vision

    (54:46) Understanding personality traits in strategy and vision

    (58:58) Tactical tips for increasing openness

    (01:05:46) Building influence and effective relationships

    (01:21:17) The importance of trust and appeal in relationships

    (01:36:47) Creating a positive organizational habitat

    (01:50:35) Enhancing focus and productivity

    (02:00:58) Practical tips for deep work and gamma time

    (02:07:11) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • The Most Complicated Object in the Universe: https://today.uconn.edu/2018/03/complicated-object-universe/#

    • The Myers-Briggs personality test: https://www.themyersbriggs.com/en-US/Products-and-Services/Myers-Briggs

    • The Big Five personality test: https://www.thepersonalitylab.org/

    • The Enneagram personality test: https://enneagramtest.com/

    • An inside look at how Figma builds product | Yuhki Yamashita (CPO of Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-how-figma-builds

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Dylan Field live at Config: Intuition, simplicity, and the future of design: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/dylan-field-live-at-config

    • An inside look at Figma’s unique GTM motion | Claire Butler (first GTM hire): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-figmas-unique-bottom

    • Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams

    • The Science-Business Mismatch That Puts Your Change at Risk: https://changemanagementreview.com/the-science-business-mismatch-that-puts-your-change-at-risk/

    • Daniel Pink on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielpink/

    • Trello: https://trello.com/

    • Cron: https://cronhq.notion.site/

    • The Double Diamond framework for design thinking: https://www.fluxspace.io/resources/the-4-ds-double-diamond-design-thinking-model

    • CORE Sciences - Tips on Priming Great Meetings PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gm21cj0vi0bjosyu8kd69/CORE-Sciences-Tips-on-Priming-Great-Meetings.pdf?rlkey=6fznhv7bbsxm8nj8m4luej17t&st=2eduirad&dl=0

    • How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/transform-your-subscription-growth

    • Brené Brown’s website: https://brenebrown.com/

    • The CORE personality test: https://www.core-sciences.com/new-core-identity

    • Burning Man: https://burningman.org/

    • Stripe: https://stripe.com/

    • Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

    • Albert Einstein quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7133605-make-things-as-simple-as-possible-but-no-simpler

    • Elden Ring: https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/elden-ring

    • Abilene paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox

    The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/1591844355

    • The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon

    • Siqi Chan on X: https://x.com/blader

    • Runway: https://runway.com/

    • Shreyas Doshi on pre-mortems, the LNO framework, the three levels of product work, why most execution problems are strategy problems, and ROI vs. opportunity cost thinking: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-3-shreyas-doshi

    • Wolfgang Puck’s website: https://wolfgangpuck.com/

    • Steven Spielberg on X: https://x.com/sspielberg93

    • John Williams’s website: https://www.johnwilliams.org/

    • The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    • Warby Parker: https://www.warbyparker.com/

    • Simon Sinek’s website: https://simonsinek.com/

    • What is the function of the various brainwaves?: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-function-of-t-1997-12-22/

    • CORE Sciences - Your Brain's 9 Modes PDF: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/figg8upeaawir1hnxv0ew/CORE-Sciences-Your-Brain-s-9-Modes.pdf?rlkey=u3zaonxvycvupurq6pwysckfq&st=os06xjnr&dl=0

    Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It: Unlock Your Persuasion Potential in Professional and Personal Life: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805

    The Person and the Situation: Perspectives of Social Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Person-Situation-Perspectives-Social-Psychology/dp/1905177445

    Cambridge Fundamentals of Neuroscience in Psychology: https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Fundamentals-Neuroscience-Psychology/dp/B08QYNDNYX

    • Robert Greene’s books on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Robert-Greene/author/B001IGV3IS

    Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics: https://www.amazon.com/Misbehaving-Behavioral-Economics-Richard-Thaler/dp/039335279X

    • Beehiiv: https://www.beehiiv.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    How embracing your emotions will accelerate your career | Joe Hudson (executive coach, Art of Accomplishment)

    Joe Hudson is one of the most sought-after executive coaches in Silicon Valley. He is the founder of Art of Accomplishment, a transformational coaching program that has helped tens of thousands of people, including many tech executives and founders from companies like Apple, OpenAI, and Google. His unique method of transformation comes from over 25 years of exploring neurological, psychological, and spiritual traditions, tested against real-world challenges. In our conversation, Joe shares:

    • Why the critical voice in your head is always wrong, and how to change your relationship with that voice

    • Why authenticity trumps self-improvement

    • The importance of embracing all of your emotions

    • How to create more enjoyable and effective meetings

    • The power of gratitude in transforming your life

    • Practical experiments for personal growth

    • Much more

    Apply for Joe’s Connection Course:

    Thousands of students have taken Joe’s most popular experience, the Connection Course. Unlike most online courses, there is no reading, lectures, or written homework. It is a three-week experiential deep dive where you will apply your learnings to real-life problems—how to make your team more productive, communicate more effectively, and resolve conflicts with ease. Apply here and use the code LENNY for $300 off your enrollment: view.life/lenny.

    Brought to you by:

    BuildBetter—AI for product teams

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/embracing-your-emotions-joe-hudson

    Where to find Joe Hudson:

    • X: https://x.com/FU_joehudson

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-hudson/

    • Website: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/

    • Podcast: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast

    • Linktree: https://linktr.ee/theartofaccomplishment

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Joe’s background

    (02:31) The critical voice in your head

    (06:39) Changing your relationship with the critical voice

    (13:19) Understanding and embracing emotions

    (19:52) The importance of emotional fluidity

    (24:40) Questioning assumptions and self-perception

    (30:25) The consequences of avoiding emotions

    (36:57) Experimenting with self-improvement

    (39:42) Understanding efficiency and enjoyment

    (43:17) The power of enjoyment in daily tasks

    (45:03) Innate enjoyment vs. learned enjoyment

    (46:31) Authenticity vs. self-improvement

    (50:01) Embracing emotional experiences

    (55:49) How understanding your emotions helps you make better decisions

    (01:02:53) Creating effective teams and meetings

    (01:10:40) Gratitude practice for personal growth

    (01:15:36) Conclusion and final thoughts

    Referenced:

    Descartes’ Error: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/

    • Joe’s quote about joy: https://x.com/FU_joehudson/status/1756837774743790030

    • “Emotional Inquiry”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/emotional-inquiry

    Inside Out 2: https://movies.disney.com/inside-out-2

    • “Question the Assumption”: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/podcast/question-the-assumption

    • Bodega Bay: https://www.bodegabay.com/

    • Elon Musk reveals the interview question he asks every candidate to instantly spot a liar: https://www.good.is/elon-musk-reveals-the-one-job-interview-question-he-asks-every-candidate-to-instantly-spot-a-liar

    • Great Decisions course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/great-decisions-course

    • HBR Analytic Services: https://hbr.org/hbr-analytic-services

    • Connection Course: https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/course/the-connection-course

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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