Tax-dodging alpacas (with Nisha Katona)
en
January 29, 2025
TLDR: Jane and Fi discuss socks for Americans, fallen women with fallen arches, family experiences, and Nisha Katona’s new cooking show on their maritime podcast. Also announced is their next book club pick 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' by Hilary Mantel.

In this engaging episode of Offair, hosts Jane and Fi dive into an eclectic mix of topics including cooking, personal anecdotes, and insightful discussions with Nisha Katona, the founder of Mowgli Street Food restaurants and a prominent figure in the culinary world. The conversation is vibrant, offering listeners a blend of humor, heartfelt stories, and expert cooking tips.
Key Highlights
Nisha Katona's Culinary Journey
- Transition from Law to Cooking: After two decades as a family law barrister, Nisha switched careers, driven by her passion for food and cooking. She emphasizes that she sees cooking as both therapy and a means to share culture.
- Mowgli Street Food: Nisha founded this restaurant chain to expose British audiences to Indian street food, aiming to simplify traditional curry recipes and make them accessible to all.
- Culinary Approach: She believes that many Indian recipes center around just three spices, making it less intimidating for home cooks to try. Her emphasis on healthy eating with lentils exemplifies her mission to demystify the Indian kitchen.
Nisha’s New Cooking Show
- ‘Nisha Katona’s Home Kitchen’: Nisha shares insights about her upcoming ITV show, where she showcases her cooking processes amidst the chaos of her farm, which features alpacas, horses, and goats.
- Freddie Mercury's Favorite Recipe: During a light-hearted exchange, Nisha reveals she cooked a Chicken Dansak, identified as Freddie Mercury’s favorite curry, in her unique setting that combines nature with cooking.
- Living with Alpacas: Nisha discusses the joys and quirks of her life with alpacas, referring to them as having personalities that provoke both amusement and tranquility.
Broader Themes
- Women in Business: Nisha sheds light on the challenges faced by women entrepreneurs, particularly those who start new ventures later in life. She champions the qualities that mature women bring to business, such as resilience and the wisdom acquired through life experiences.
- Economic Insights: The discussion briefly touches on aspects of the current economy, with Nisha expressing concern about how increasing costs and consumer anxiety might affect the restaurant industry. She discusses the importance of empowering consumers to revitalize the economy.
Unique Anecdotes
- Cooking for the Family: Much of Nisha’s culinary motivation stems from her desire to feed her family wholesome meals, underlining the universal value of home cooking.
- Humor and Candidness: The hosts bring a light-hearted humor to their discussions, as seen in their playful banter regarding alpacas and Nisha's honest takes on her experiences in law and cooking.
Practical Takeaways
- Simplifying Cooking: Listeners are encouraged to simplify their cooking with Nisha’s approach to spices and curry, focusing on key staples rather than overwhelming recipes.
- Community and Connection: The episode underscores the importance of community, both through cooking and the shared experiences that come with it.
- Embracing Change: Nisha’s career transition serves as a motivational anecdote for those contemplating a shift in their professional paths, reinforcing that it’s never too late to pursue one’s passion.
Conclusion
This episode of Offair is a delightful mix of culinary inspiration and personal anecdotes, encouraging listeners to connect through food while navigating the complexities of life and business. Nisha Katona’s enthusiasm for cooking, coupled with her practical insights and thorough understanding of the industry, make this episode both informative and engaging. Tune in for an entertaining exploration of food, life lessons, and the beauty of embracing one’s unique journey.
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that's been made by AI. Can you see what the problem is there? They've put too many toes on the foot. Oh, it's terrible, absolutely terrible. This episode of Offair is sponsored by Wild From Tears Travel. So, feet tell me, where's on your travel bucket list?
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Welcome to Offair, and Caroline, thank you so much for my doorstop. Caroline has sent me a wonderful, uh, stuffed object that is, I could, frankly, I could just look at it, Caroline, but actually it is a door-shaped doorstop. And Caroline is the wonderful artist who specializes in pet portraits.
And it's just a really lovely thing to come into work to see, so thank you very much. And Karolina will be in touch, I'm sorry, because the trail went a little bit cold. Is that Dora on the front of the card that she sent as well? Well, it could be. Because I'm very pretty. I am going to say that Tabbycats do tend to look alike, don't they? If that's not offensive, is it? It's just an observation. They all look alike.
I can't tell the difference. We're just on dangerous territory already. Let's not do this. Laundry larks and learning. Now, this comes in from a correspondent named Barnes. Have you ever heard that as a first name before? Well, Barnes is... To those of us who live in East West Kensington, Barnes is now a distant dream since Hammersmith Bridge. What? Gosh. Very, very suddenly. Does it feel like an island that's been cast adrift?
Yeah, absolutely. So Barnes is, you cross the Hammersmith Bridge, well, you used to be able to, you can still do it on a Ford bike, and there lies Barnes, which is only a tiny bit away geographically from East West Kensington, but feels like another planet. So, Hammersmith Bridge is a long, long running saga, isn't it? Oh, it's really angered people, obviously, in that part of the world.
Did anybody ever try and set up a kind of clever ferry across the... There was talk of that. There was a talk of one point of drive-on drive-off. Of Uber. Yeah. But it didn't happen. Well, Uber have got ships, haven't they? Yeah, that's not the right word. It's a good ship's fee. Welcome to your maritime podcast, Offair.
No, they put boats. It didn't happen. And that's the only... When I hear the name Barnes, that's all I think of. OK. Well, I go there anymore. I think it's an intriguing name. And I'm... I'd just love to hear a bit more about it, actually. Is it a family name? Was it? Because you were conceived in Barnes. Would you have been called Wandsworth? Maybe you'd been a little bit further down. Can't imagine that anyone in Barnes gets up to that sort of thing.
And you know things. It's quite sophisticated. I tell you what, if you can't get across the river, your nights are long, Jane. Anyway, Barnes has sent us this fantastic email entitled, Laundry Larks and Learning. So, to the Laundry.
Being of the same vintage as Jane, I've been a 40-minute, one-hour wash woman since I left home. I too have about 78 settings on my machine, but only ever use the one. Although a very occasional quick wash may have been utilised. However, the past eight months I've gone fully green on the laundry and other domestic France courtesy of Nancy Bertwhistle. Not come across Nancy Bertwhistle, gonna have to look her up.
Specifically, my laundry practice has been revolutionised. I no longer buy washing powder or conditioner instead use a combination of, wait for this folks, write it down. Soda crystals, green bleach, also known as sodium per carbonate, and white vinegar with essential oils for the conditioner. Most of my washes are now 20 degrees for just over two hours. So, sorry, the initial thing should have been 40 degrees on a 1 hour wash.
This is actually more economical because most of the money is spent on heating the water, not churning out the clothes. I was very skeptical when I embarked upon this journey, however, there's no going back for me. I hear you ask, what about towels and bedding? What about towels and bedding? Thank you. It is recommended that this type of laundry should be washed between 40 and 60 degrees and sometimes I'll use the hotter setting as manufacturers recommend.
But I can assure you that none of us have contracted anything unpleasant from the new low-temperature wash. So it's always good to hear of different ways of doing things, and especially if that's slightly greener and cleaner. Because, you know, I really, really love that smell that you can get if you put those funny little bubbles now.
in your washing machine. The lawn dribbles. Yeah. Well, you know, the little tiny little things. Oh. You know, the freshener stuff that you put in afterwards. But I don't buy it anymore because it's just chemicals, isn't it? Oh, it's just chemicals, yeah. Welcome to your chemistry podcast.
Yes, but I know what you mean. They do freshen up the washing, but I'm not sure they're environmentally friendly. Not environmentally friendly at all, no. So that's quite a good tip, and I might actually give that a go. And Barnes thinks that there's definitely room for a PhD in this. I completely agree with you too. But she does go on to say...
Just a very quick query. On the podcast last year, Fee said she didn't use paper towels, any tea towels. How do you manage feet when you need to dry, fish or meat, et cetera? I read my emails very early in the morning these days before I come into work, and that just made me laugh out loud because I haven't needed to dry my fish or meat in a very long time, Barnes. It's not a euphemism. But I genuinely thought, gosh, what do I do if I need to pat me? But I just don't. Is that terrible?
I might do something wrong in the kitchen. How often do you pat your meat or your fish dry? I don't think I've really washed my meat. Do you wash your meat? No, I don't. God, I mean... I don't know, so buzzing just gave me a couple of moments of just quite nice reverie this morning thinking, what?
What do I do? Gosh, I'm really being put on the spot here, because I'm still living in my meat heaven since the butter bean lovers looked out. Are you getting a piece of steak out and washing it and then patting it dry? Well, I've got a steak all night on the go for tonight. Well, you need a paper towel for us? That's why I won't.
OK, well, we're both still here, so we must be doing reasonably well. But we may have missed a crucial element of preparing meat or fish. Right. But also Barnes sent this from a very pleasant Madeira, only a seven-day break, not a permanent home. Then we're grateful for that. Her other green tip, and then we'll leave it there. Put your oven racks on the lawn overnight before washing them. The following day, you'll only need to use hot water and soda crystals for cleaning their chemicals at all.
I mean, I'm going to try it. I'm going to try it. I think the foxes might take them away. I'm not going to get the neighbours talking as well, but who knows? Madeira, very sophisticated. It just sounds like, which was there a famous writer who wrote a lot about Madeira? Or I know I've got that wrong. My parents went to Madeira to celebrate their silver wedding anniversary.
Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, and I always remember that. I always think it's a very... I know an awful lot of older people do go there, and I always wonder about that, because isn't it very hilly? Well, you say older people, of course, they were much younger than I am now, and they celebrated their silver wedding at first. Were they? How old would they have been? They would have been way younger than me, so only in their early 50s. OK. I'm not way younger. Well... Geez, sometimes, Jane, I think you're wishing a kind of octogenarian status upon yourself.
But I do remember thinking at the time that when they went on this holiday to Madeira, they repaired, clapped out, has been... That terrible judgment of youth realised now, they hadn't even got to their prime. Anyway, they had a lovely time. So if anyone's thinking about going to Madeira, Barnes sounds happy there. And my mum and dad had a great time in the 19... Early must have been early 1980s. Right. Tales from Madeira will take.
In limited, limited numbers, please. It's also raffles, isn't raffles hotel in Madeira? I thought that was in Singapore. Yeah, you're probably right. And then there's a fortified wine called Madeira. Yes. Yes. Is that better? And there's a cake. Right. And that's where we'll leave it. OK.
I think it's the capital Fungal, Fungal. Fungal? Okay, Fungal. Fungal. You can get something for that. Now, welcome to... I know we did talk a lot about whether or not you should become a mother. That was that last week of the week before.
It was over the last couple of weeks, wasn't it? And I just want to say hello to Zoey, and I hope you've had some sleep, Zoey, but Zoey had a daughter five days ago at the time of pinging her email to us. So she just says she'd like to offer her expert view on motherhood in light of what you've been talking about. Tonight I'm up with her sleeping on me, actually the only place she will
I spent possibly thousands on snaz pods, snooze pods, and dokotots. Do you know what they're at there? Obviously, I've got no idea, sorry. I think a dokotot is a... It's a rocking... Is it a rocking kind of bay for an infant? I don't know. Anyway, obviously her daughter has made the entirely reasonable decision that she'd like to sleep in close proximity to her mum.
for the time being. I think they're all like that at the start, aren't they? I think you can have the most luxurious alternative available, but you can't fool a baby. They know when they're with a human, they know when they're in a snooze pod, and they prefer the human.
I don't think that's unusual, is it? Zoe doesn't have any need to worry about that. No, not at all, not at all. I mean, there are obviously, you do have to be really careful about sleeping with your baby there. Well, she's sleeping, the baby's sleeping on her, so presumably has access to, you know, she can breathe easily and what you have, I take your point.
The sleeplessness so far has been horrendous, and it was something that worried me before I got pregnant, along with so much else. I do agree with me that the rhetoric around it, that basically it ruins your life, is disempowering to women. So far, the experiences had its share of drama, the anxiety, the overwhelming emotion, and it hasn't all been positive. I've tried to be candid with myself and my husband and some close friends about not feeling 100% blissed out the entire time.
Well, to that, I'd say be honest, to be honest with the people around you, because of course you don't feel blissed out 100% of the time. You're knackered. And no one feels anything close to blissed out when they just haven't had any sleep. Absolutely. But in those troubled moments, you know, be overwhelming. They can feel overwhelming, but obviously hang on in there.
and the brighter moments do come. I mean, it is just a great thing, Jane, that we can talk more honestly about that whole spectrum of the maternal experience. You know, so, I mean, you know, motherhood should never have been like the Masons and for a very, very long time it was. So I'd like to know more about the Freemasons as well, but we have been done that road before.
which I will be infrastinate. It's free masons. But yes, it's good that we can all acknowledge that there is a lot to like about motherhood and sometimes a lot to just really weep about.
Shall we move on to penis portions? Yes, because this is quite a theme. It is, isn't it? This is from Kate, who says, when I was a kid, I once stayed for six weeks with family friends when my parents were abroad. They were lovely people, their home was very orderly, whereas ours was very chaotic. But at dinner, they always served the father and the dimwitted brother first.
And with the most, that judgment was dim-witted, but he could bet he's a professor now, thanks to the amount of food he got. Well, didn't they used to say that the dim-witted brother was the one, the first one went into the city, the second one went into the army. And then the third one was the church. The third one was the dim-witted one who went into the church. And if he had a fourth, they went to work at Lloyd's of London, the insurance brokers got help us all. And if there were seconds continues, Kate, they did the same again. So the girls only got seconds if the man and boy didn't want any more.
Oh, goodness sake. What? Yes, I rarely got seconds and always felt this like pain of this. I was a long skinny 11-year-old with a high-speed metabolism and could easily have matched the men in downing, double their penis portions. I was quietly appalled and so was my mum when I told her, she and her dad were rigorous in the equal division of food and all other resources between me and my two brothers growing up in the 60s and the 70s. I'm shocked that this still happens.
in 2025. Well, so we, Kate. And I mean, if there is a hill that Jane and I can die on, it's going to be this. OK, make your portions equal. The end of penis portions will march if we need to. Yeah, we will.
Do you think, because it's often women who are in speech marks to blame for this, because they have a tendency to revel in their son's appetite and sometimes not be perhaps more judgmental of a daughter who wants more, because some mothers, not all, do judge their daughters by their appearance, worry for their daughters because they have a fear that
their daughters might just grow up to take up too much space in the world and heaven forbid that that might happen. I don't know. I wonder whether fathers would dull out the portions in the same way. I'm interested in that. Because let's face it, mothers have been teenage girls.
And they've been through that experience. And does that mean that you repeat it? That you repeat it? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think times are so different now. I'd like to think they were. But I know. I think our understanding of what controlling behaviour around food ends up provoking is much better. So I'm just really hoping not. I hope not too. But I wonder.
But I would say as well, and obviously this would just be completely different for different people. But my teenagers, there has been a difference to how much food my son can just put away.
I mean, they definitely went through a phase, and we all used to talk about it as mums of teenage boys. You know, there is that really extraordinary period that seems to happen a lot, where they'll come home from school, you know, age 15 or 16, and they will just eat the fridge. They'll just eat the whole fridge, and they'll need supper as well, but half an hour after that. And I haven't experienced the same thing with my daughter,
So I don't know, I mean, maybe there is a metabolism, there's a growth of muscles. There's a growth, but again... There's a testosterone surge, and I'm sure... I think that's different from the table situation where the parents, usually the moms... Yes, I take your points... I'm making it some kind of a judgement. Making an internal judgement, which they can sometimes... Sometimes your internal judgement can display facially, can be displayed facially.
Anyway, I'm really interested in what people think about that. Actually, shout out to my two nephews, who, neither of whom will be eating big portions today, as the norovirus works its way through their home. Oh, no, Jane. It's everywhere. No, that's horrible. Yes, well, they won't be listening, but I'm thinking of them.
Now, this is interesting because we were talking yesterday to Alison Saunders, Dame Alison Saunders, who'd been the director of public prosecutions here in the UK. This is about juries and jury service. And we've had some interesting emails on this. Can you keep me anonymous? Yes, we can. I've been chosen for jury service four times, twice in Scotland and twice in Winchester. Is it because I've got an unusual surname? I'm not going to mention it. Obviously, because you're anonymous.
I don't think that can be the case. Anyway, of the four times I was only chosen once, it was last year, and I was on a drugs case. I had to try the person from a file full of pages of text messages. It was really hard going, and the jury was definitely half and half, and it was the more professional jurors that were leaned on to help the others due to a lack of literacy and other issues.
I'm a teacher and I was chosen to be the lead juror. I found the responsibility horrendous and I honestly hope I never get chosen again. Phi said she would love to do it. I don't know whether it was you who said it or whether it was me. It was you. And I believe once you're responsible for someone's future it's quite horrible. I'm not sure I would love to do it thinking about it really but anyway thank you for that experience and I take your point that actually it was actually rather grim and awkward.
And here's another side of the story. We got a discussion yesterday about whether jury service can affect members of the public. You have to sit and listen to every detail of horrible cases. I haven't done jury service, but I do support the idea of help because my husband was a criminal barrister and it really changed him. He was sucked into the drama and the glamour of it by watching things like Crown Court. Do you remember that? Oh, I do. Yeah. I would have gone for LA law, but Crown Court
Gosh, I wouldn't have said glamour, but carry on. But the reality turned out to be profoundly depressing, dealing every day with the really dark side of life. When, one afternoon years ago, I was at home with our small daughters and suddenly remembered we were meant to be somewhere else, we dashed away leaving the house in a mess. We got home some hours later to find my husband pacing the floor at first worried that we'd been abducted and then angry that I hadn't thought to leave a note.
who else would have imagined such a thing, but his work life had trained him to always think the worst. He started out as such a cheerful and funny man, but he ended up the opposite. I imagine that does do it to you. But very much so, and I mean, that's my point about jurors. I just think some people are having to witness the most awful things.
that the rest of us aren't having to, and I'm sure it changes you. And that kind of, it's your civic duty, so you've got to, and therefore, you know, you're being a bit bad if you don't. I think that adds an extra layer to it too. I mean, I'm sure that I will get asked again, definitely on a list somewhere, and they do promise if you turn jury service down that, you know, you will have to at some stage. But I'd dreaded Jane, I would really dread it.
I think it's even worse, actually, for those people who do do it and then sit there for up to a fortnight or longer and never get chosen. Oh, no, I'll be happy with that. I think that's quite frustrating. The vending machine at Snaresbrook Crown Court, I believe, is quite good. Dead Jane on feet. Now, I'm going to really, really, really try and get this pronunciation right. It's about language for describing very close friends.
This comes in from Claire, who describes herself as a regular listener and regular correspondent. Remember the giant hedgehogs of New Zealand story from a couple of years ago? I do, actually, because I find hedgehogs quite frightening. And apparently there are enormous ones in New Zealand.
Roaming. Yeah, up the island. It's literally waiting at the airport for you as you land. Here in New Zealand, says Claire, there is a beautiful married term now commonly used across the many different cultures here called Fano. Now it's spelled W-H-A with an accent, N-A-U.
but pronounced Fano since the WH and Mary is pronounced like an F. While Fano can refer to immediate and extended family, it's also often used to include those close to you or anyone who shares a common purpose. Mary culture is collectivist rather than individualistic and Fano at its core reflects relationships, responsibility and interconnectedness.
So a group of family and friends at a celebration, for instance, would be referred to collectively by that one word. As an immigrant to New Zealand from the UK, you are Noel Edmonds. I find the term incredibly inclusive, always happy to hear more about Noel. It always feels warm and welcoming when someone refers to you as Fano, especially if you formed a genuine connection. You'll offer here people greet a group with Kia Ora Fano. So for those friends who are like family, calling them that offers a way to show love and connection,
without having to explain all the nuances each time you introduce them. Perhaps we should find a similar one word term to use in the UK.
I think we should. So it's a very similar thing to the clan, isn't it? Which obviously is very powerful up in Scotland and you'll be identified by your tartan. You'll be permanently identified by belonging to a clan, no matter who you married. But we don't attribute that kind of thing down south anymore at all, do we? No.
But I was thinking about this overnight. Yes, I do do thinking overnight. Growing up, I don't think it happens anymore, but maybe it does. We encouraged to call family friends either auntie or uncle, which is a bit icky. But it was very cold. It was just what we did. It was a respectful way to address adults to whom you were not related. Maybe it's a northern thing.
I might. No, I don't think so actually. No, I know people who refer to especially great big kind of groups of female friends of your mums as aunties more than you have uncles. But I just think we do need more terms to differentiate levels of friendship and connection in our lives.
And actually, that's what I really loved about Elizabeth Day's book about friendship, friendaholic, was it just explored all those different layers of friendship that you have. And she was right that you go into a bookshop and there's just acres of stuff about relationships, loads of stuff about parenting, loads of stuff about family, but very little stuff about friendship and it defines your life, your friendship, and can be really difficult to navigate sometimes as well.
So, bring it on. Let's not just have one word for it. It's weird. And friendship is what our events at the Barbican next week are all about. Do you think it was good? It was very good. Yep. You'd have to pay for that. Well...
There's a price for everything. So our guest on Tuesday of next week is the brilliant Annabelle Croft, and then on the Saturday we've got Joe Brown. It's certainly a super pet fighting. I can't wait. And thanks. We've had lots of people emailing in about their travel arrangements. There's a big posse coming from Wiltshire. We're very excited about that. And good luck to all of you making your way to London for the event. And the weather's not too bad. I did check.
cold on Tuesday, but I don't think there's anything other up toward happen. And you'll be free by what do we reckon? Oh, 20 to 20 to 10. You'll be 930? Well out of there by 930. So don't worry, it's not a late night. No. No, because neither of us want a late night. Now Paula Radcliffe was a guest, was it last week or the week before? The week before. And she is a very famous athlete and going back to Marathons and I love this email from Delith who
describes herself as having been flabbergasted back in October when she got a letter telling her that she'd actually got a place in the London Marathon. Now, I know loads of people apply and I think they probably comfort themselves with the knowledge that it's going to be really tough to get in, so chances are you probably won't. And apparently, Deleta tried on and off for 25 years to get a place. She submitted the application this year thinking that in all likelihood she wouldn't be successful.
Anyway, she got in and she says here, let's say I received the news with subdued joy, but then decided to rise to the challenge and run the marathon in April in fancy dress and raise some money for charity along the way. Well, honestly, I'm so impressed. Best of luck to you.
She went out running two weeks ago and pricked up her ears when Paula came on the pod describing her foray back into marathon running and the relative difficulty of achieving such a feat at the age of 51. However, Paula, who I have no doubts, is valiantly galloping through the sunny foothills of Monaco. I'm not sure about that actually, managed to admit some of the small hitches that this 50-year-old is encountering such as perpetually sore feet, I've got an arthritic big toe,
A stretching regime, which is almost as long as the run, and having to complete all the runs in the morning as I'm less likely to wet myself, post childbirth stress incontinence, right? What started as a noble act of charity is also revealed an unexpected benefit of wearing a fancy dress costume. It'll come in handy to carry home my prolapsed uterus after the marathon.
By 26.2 miles, I've no doubt it will no longer see fit to stay inside my body. OK. She's very excited, though, to come to see us on the fourth. Do you think you could make arrangements for it to stay on board, at least for the duration of the show, if you don't mind?
Although, to be honest, there can't be a place to go to if you think that that might happen to you. I think everyone would just be very understanding and to have some tales to tell. Best of luck with the training. Honestly, I really do respect people who do the marathon. I have no idea how you do it. You've got 20 million billion times more courage than I have. Hope it goes on for you.
Now, one thing that might be of interest to you, have you been chased around the internet by those socks? I'm now showing Jane. Those Pilate socks? Well, it's a picture of toeless socks that have got some kind of a compression thing. They're just ankle socks. And I've not bought any, I've not discussed socks. I don't have particularly painful feet, but this advertisement is chasing me around the internet at the moment.
So much so that actually I did send it to a friend who's done a little bit of research about what it is, because I didn't want to click on it just in case it then overwhelmed my life and I really could never escape from it anymore. And he's found the blurb. If you suffer from plantar fasciitis, which I think is... I have heard of it. It's very painful. Very painful. Lead in athletic lifestyle as seeking to lose weight, or are an older American.
This might just be the most important thing you read today. Isn't that bizarre? Just very, very specific groups there, people who suffer from plantar fasciitis, people who are running a lot, seeking to lose weight, or if you're just old and live in America.
You need these socks. Anyway, apparently they utilise the freshly patented military and medical-grade compression technology that's never before been available to consumers. Gosh, wow. I know. So you might want to look into it yourself. Bareably itchy and swollen ankles, it deals with two weak arches, as I've said before, it was a sign of a lack of morality in my childhood, if it were arches a week, and especially if they're fallen.
It's a terrible thing. You might never recover from. Imagine being a fallen woman with fallen arches. Then there's another picture that's made onto the sock-soother's website, who neither was such a thing, that's been made by AI. Can you see what the problem is there? They've put too many toes on the foot.
Oh, it's terrible, absolutely terrible. And you look at it for a couple of hours and you think, what's going on? Oh my God, it's AI and they've put six toes on a foot. Very weird. Anyway, that's how I spent my morning.
I was too busy because the window cleaners were there. I've not had a moment to myself today. I tell you what happened to me on the tube in today. We've got to get on because we've got to guess. You know, I normally just listen to something on the tube, but today I met someone on the platform and it was really lovely to catch up with her. She'd been the secretary at my kids' primary school and it's just sometimes so lovely to spend 25 minutes catching up with someone who used to see every day
and hadn't seen her for a long time and it was lovely. So sometimes, let's just bring back, we were the only people on the tube talking and people were horrified, but just sometimes it's just, that's like going back to the 20th century where I think I was happier when people used to talk.
Well, I think also it's a real treat in London to bump into someone you know. Yeah. So, not just obviously in your local neighbourhoods, but when you're out and about in London town and you bump into somebody, it's just like a piece of magic, isn't it? Just occasionally I've bumped into my sister in London and it just takes both of us completely much. What?
Yeah. Look, just like, oh! It's just like, yeah, we both lived, we both lived over 33 years now. I didn't bump into one of my children once, and that was also really well. It's so bizarre, isn't it? It's really, really cool. I've told you, I did bring in a clipping, only because I was absolutely horrified to read in the Sun newspaper today that it looks as though King Harold, the last of the Anglo-Saxon monarchs, had an en suite.
Now they know this because they have the manor house of Harold was featured in the biotapistry and a modern mansion is thought to stand on the same site in West Sussex and excavators from the universities of Exeter and Newcastle have discovered that re-examining an excavation they've identified a toilet with in a large timber building
Research has revealed a trend from the 10th century for posh houses to have integrated lose.
Well, I'm not surprised. If you had all of the money in the world and you were top of the pile, wouldn't you make sure that you didn't have to walk down, you know, very windy corridor for Whittle? The headline is, On Sweet Flushes Out King Harold. Yeah, you're absolutely right. But it's, I mean, look, it's the first world complaint this. I've never had an On Sweet. I think you should treat yourself. I am livid. That Harold, who lest we forget,
fell apart in the face of, who was it, William the Conqueror. He had the benefit of an en suite back in the day. And me, a podcaster in the 21st century, I haven't got one. Well, I mean, there's quite a lot of square footage in your mansion. You could have one put in. OK, I'll think about it. Or you could just wait until you are in sheltered housing. And then I believe that that is pretty much Durega. It's guaranteed, isn't it? Yeah. Got it, really.
Oh, oh, come on. I mean, I think, wouldn't it be the first thing that you think about when you're designing for older people, the necessity of a bathroom being very, very convenient and very near? I don't know. I mean, if you're in sheltered housing or your parents are, and they've got to walk down at Long Corridor for a whittle, we're the podcast that you can tell us about it on.
Let's face it, there aren't that many podcasts which would take those sorts of emails. You could send it to Wario and Alistair. But I don't think they're coverage because they're like that, they're mean like that. They'll have on sweets though, won't they? Yeah.
Being a family law barrister for 20 years would probably be enough of a career for most people but Nisha Katona isn't most people and after two decades on the front line of child protection and the law she changed tack, turning her love of food and cooking into a hugely successful second career.
She's the restaurateur behind Mowgli, the Indian street food chain. She's been awarded an MBE for services to food. You might know her from lots of TV shows, MasterChef, the great British menu, all kinds of things. And she's got a new show of her own coming out on ITV, where you can find her, cooking up Freddie Mercury's favourite curry in her open kitchen as her alpacas wander past.
That sentence sounds mad as if I've made it up, but it's all true, isn't it? How are you? Very nice to be here. That was an absolute casserole of a sentence. My entire career has been one big stew, really. I'm leaving. Let's do those three things at the end. Freddie Mercury's favourite curry. Yes. Your beautiful, beautiful open kitchen and the wandering alpacas.
What joins all of that together? It makes no sense. I think the joy of this is the chaos. You know, the fact that my life is so disparate. You know, so many different facets to it. I think this is the reality. And I think that show brings it all together. Because, of course, yes, there's the history and I was a barrister and then running Mowgley. So you're in this completely full-time job. I'm building seven restaurants a year.
But all the while, you are there where your primary function is to feed your family. That is for me, that is just the way the biscuit has crumbled, that I am the one that is the cook in the house. So for most people, I mean, getting their own TV cookery show would be, you know, the absolute kind of zenith of their career. But I wonder whether, actually, it is just kind of another thing that you're doing because, actually, you have been hugely successful in restaurants. You've had a successful legal career.
Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it? Because when you start off on the TV journey, for me, it was a little bit fortuitous. I'm not here as the thing. I'm not entertainment. I'm not entertaining. So I don't do entertainment shows. I have two passions. I have a passion about food and a passion about business. And so any TV where I can talk about those things is the kind of gigs that I want to do.
And I think your sense of purpose in life can't come from doing a TV show. You know, I think I'm 54 now. And so life erodes you and you start to realise the things that really, really matter. You know, your health is a big one at this stage. Your health is a big one. And also that kind of contentment. And what is that level of contentment? And TV sure as hell doesn't bring you contentment. But my passion is sharing with the world the way the world cooks and how simple it is.
and that sense of achievability in the therapy of cooking. Be it for yourself, be it for your friends, be it for your family. And so it is very satisfying in that way. I've been very lucky. And you're also trying to take away some of the fear of the spice rack, aren't you? And the way that a lot of people might think, oh, I can't possibly cook this code because it's got 17 different spices. I'm not quite sure about what the right number of lentils are. I'm not familiar with this, but you're trying to make it simple for us, aren't you?
I think that's the thing about, you know, Murgley was the first Indian chain nationally. That's fascinating. 2020, what are we, 2024? You know, an Indian group's been in this country since the 1700s. Why did it take till now to get the first national Indian chain?
And I think that's what I've dedicated myself to. All I am is really kind of a shirper. So it's, I think, because I'm second generation, and I speak like this, I'm basically a kind of brown English person that knows these spice formulas. And they are, they're tried and tested formulas. Most curries are predicated on three spices, two of which never change. I mean, why would you not want to even analyze that? Do you want to know what they are? Yes, please. Tamara can chilli in everything.
To the point that if you ask an Indian for a recipe, they won't cite it because they presume that knowledge. OK. So, term recantially and everything. And depending on the genre of ingredient, that third spice changes. So, if it's meat, that third spice is garam masala. OK. If it's brassicas, it might be mustard seed. Root veg, cumin seed, you see. That's it. My job is done. But that's why it sounds so silly, but that's why I gave up the law to go out and teach people how to cook. I was doing them at the same time for a while.
But to teach people that actually what you can wield with lentils is miraculous. This is a really healthy way of eating and very simply conjured. Well, I'll tell you what, your enthusiasm for the lentil. It sparked my enthusiasm for the lentil, so it's a win-win situation. Before we talk about lots of other things to do with your career, just a couple more questions about the TV show. How do you know that Chicken Dancer was Freddie Mercury's favourite curry?
And it's not just that, it's not just that, but I'm fortunate enough to spend some time with Brian May, which is very nice, because Anita, his wife is a pal as well, and so, and they're real curry fans, you know, they're real curry fans.
And so I think it's known that that was his favourite curry. In the show that I watched of yours, which comes to ITV and to everybody, is it this week? Does it launch this week? It's on the 8th of February. I think it's 11.30-ish in the morning on ITV. Right, you do make the most fantastic chicken dansak curry in this beautiful open kitchen in your home. I mean, it's more of an estate than a home, isn't it?
We use the word small holding. You need wellies to walk around it. It's rough, you know, because there's alpacas, there's horses, there's goats, there's dogs, there's guinea fowl and ducks and chickens and all the mess that they produce. So there is nothing is statey about this. You know what I mean? It's just enough land for those things really.
But it's rather lovely, isn't it? Because you're cooking away and then, you know, the camera just pans round and there's an alpaca just staring at you. It's incredible. So what we're talking to do is free roam. This is the dream. Honestly, it's pathetic, isn't it? But this is my idol. That business amount, what, why? Why am I here? What is it that gives me complete contentment? And it's that, that the alpacas are free roam. So you get up in the morning and their faces are there at your kitchen. Oh, God.
It's not an odd word, that scare you. I think you might get used to it. It's so lovely. It's for my dream of Nisha. It really is. Are they entertaining creatures? They are fascinating because they're not like any of the creatures that we know. So my goats and my horses, all my other herbivores, love a cuddle. You can interact with them, you can touch them, they seek out human company in that way. Our packers, you cannot really touch. Somebody described them as alien field clouds.
They don't have hooves, they have talons like raptors. So they've got these three claws. So they're the most gentle animals, but they really look into you. So they'll come right up to you, stare into your eyes, ferret around in your soul, but you can't cuddle them. And that's the first thing you want to do. So they're really interesting. They are, you just observe them. And they bring this tranquility like nothing else. It is. If you're interested in animals, honestly, it is a fascinating animal to have.
And they've got very bad teeth, haven't they? No, one of mine has, because he's a rescue alpaca. He's got a twisted jaw and a bulging eye. Right. Yes. So he's a welfare alpaca, so he's got very, very strange teeth. Where did he come from? He came from a farm in Devon.
with his brother. So you can only ever have alpacas in threes like any animal like with goats as well because you know if one of them dies they're very very close to each other the other one could pine to death. It's the same with ducks really so you always have pets in the morning. I know I'm sorry it's none of it's useful though it's all fantastic.
We've got a couple of really big topics we want to ask you about before our time runs out. And just tell us a little bit more about setting up the restaurants, because you've mentioned already, you know, that in middle-age women have a certain wisdom, but are also seen. I mean, let's be honest about an issue about society as heading out of their prime.
So when you were setting up your restaurants, it was at the age where actually a lot of people are thinking...
Am I capable of what I used to be capable of? Why did you feel capable of so much more? Do you remember this was just the context of this. This was at the time when there were more Dave's in the FTSE 100 than there were entire female humans. More Steve's, in fact. So when I was thinking about setting, I had this food and I really wanted to pass it on to the next generation. I will die out as many of my first generation Indians. I wanted to become British.
And there were no role models. There was nobody that looked like me that was doing this, you know, that was made a success out of their lives as well and managed to pay their mortgage and was building restaurants. And so you do kind of build into this complete vacuum. It was very, very frightening. But what? And so therefore, there is no playbook. You write it yourself.
And I just think, as you're right, at that point, I was whatever, 43. The next big horizon was the menopause, bereavement. That was it. You are kind of empty nesting was happening. And what I think is just incredible, and this is what I'm passionate about, is women like me, we have had so many corners knocked off us. You know which battles to fight. There is no ego. You know what I mean? You make formidable employers. As a result, we've got so our turnover is negligible.
I've got a thousand members of staff, you know, contentment level is so high, engagement level is so high, and I think there's just no pride in that way, and so we bring this very different way of building businesses. We use words, it sounds crazy, like love in the business forum, which is just not done. The entire
You know, your entire armory of language is different. It comes from somewhere that's not business. I was never a business person, and there's a great value to that. You bring a different complexion to business, and it works. Just in case people are thinking, watch, you just said your turnover of staff is negligible. Yes, your turnover of money is smashing.
I'm building 7 restaurants a year. I'm on 25 at the moment. That is not to say, aren't we great? It's just women like me or people like me out there who think they are in the twilight of their life. You bring some of the best
things you can to the business world and we need you. And just to put some figures on that, you sold a majority stake in Motley Street Food restaurants valued in 2023 at about £25m, so we'll just let that rest there. Do you believe that what the current Labour government is doing is going to enable people like you
to really help grow the economy. It's very interesting. I have to say it immediately puts the brakes on any idea of growth. I'll tell you why, because, and I can tell you this, in my own business, that adds another, whatever, £1.x million per annum.
into what we have to do, but can I tell you, the thing that is stalling, I can only talk about casual dining, hospitality, restaurants. People are not eating out in the way that they did, and the reason they're not is because there is a real anxiety amongst consumers. There have been elections, and that is one of the reasons, the interest rates, we need those to draw up at inflation, or whatever reasons. There is an anxiety amongst consumers, and so we need the economy to keep going. The way that Labour approached it, and I get it,
is to put more money in the pockets of those that are earning and I'm hoping that will filter through. So those people whom we are paying and I'm very glad to be paying them will get back out and support the high street come, I don't know, or summer, you know, we hope to see growth come from the bottom up in that way.
growth from the topper by me going out there and thinking I'm going to build 10 restaurants as opposed to six this year and for every restaurant we recreate 40 jobs you know that and we pay tax I'm proud of paying tax someone's got to pay for the roads and that will stall I don't think we can pretend you know anything other people will think again about whether they are going to build the economy people like us businesses that keep the economy going
But I hope they're right and I hope what they've done is right and that the money will come into the pockets of the consumers and there will be mirth and celebration and the lights going back on the high street comes summer. Right now, businesses are dying every day. Almost famous went down. I don't know if you know, Manchester brand of burgers, lovely burgers went down yesterday. In our industry, that's a dreadful, you know, death of a business.
But just to put you on the spot about this is the one thing that you believe would help. I mean, are you put off being hopeful apart from anything else because of an increase in national insurance, employers, contributions, you know, specific stuff like that?
Can I tell you those specifics lead to a massive increase in our costs? If there is a philosophy behind it that is going to drive the economy in the short to medium term, please God, they're right. Then that's fine. We don't know the answer to that yet.
but what that has done, and it will make sense to them as well to Rachel Reeves, that has to slow down the idea of growth. Of course it does, with all the other headwinds that we face in business at the moment, that's the supply for instance, that is another headwind, of course we're not going to grow staring into that growth the way that we were going to grow.
but I hope they're right. I think the most important thing is to get the economy turning again, and if that is just to invoke those consumers to get out there and go and spend, because you can, because you've got a bit more, be confident, than just fingers crossed, but we won't know the answer to that until the summer is very hard to write a budget into that.
Well, Nisha, I wish we had longer. We could talk to you all afternoon. Lovely to meet you. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. We went from alpacas to economic activity all the way through some handy tips with spices. What more could you want from an interview? Wide-ranging. It was. Nisha Katona's home kitchen starts on ITV on Saturday, the 8th of February.
When I grow up, I want to live on her farm, Jane, because she's doing all this beautiful, lovely cooking in her outdoor kitchen. And an alpaca just saunters past. And that is just my idea of complete heaven. There's something about, I changed all my feeds at New Year because the news was just so bleak. And I'm now following a lot of alpacas, llamas and goat farms. Yes.
And it's genuinely made me happier, genuinely made me happier. At one point, weren't Alpaca's a bit of a tax dodge? You've said this before. Well, I think people could sort of invest in an Alpaca farm, and there'd be some, I don't know, people would then claim that they were doing something that they weren't. OK. It gave Alpaca's a bad name, which they don't know what's going on. It's not their fault.
Although, to be honest, some of them have facial expressions that suggest they're dodging text. I don't know what you mean. And they're not native to Britain, are they? No, they're not. They're not, but they're just so funny. There's something about their... And llamas as well, you know, they've just got... Oh, maybe it was llamas. I'm just rude there about alpacas, and I don't mean to be... They've got bad teeth, and they're just funnily built, and they're just endlessly amusing, so... Yeah, it reminds me of someone. I can't think it is.
Right, let's, let's wait, await more of your gorgeous emails. Yes, let's jane of fee at times. radio. Have a lovely day. We're back with you tomorrow. Goodbye. Bye.
Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off-Air with Jane and Fi. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.
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