Tank crew wipes out Russian armoured column & Putin rejects peace talks
en
January 29, 2025
TLDR: Today's focus is on oil, its current tensions with Russia due to oil depot attacks and trade restrictions by Trump, and insights from Hamish De Bretton-Gordon (former tank commander). Mentioned are contributions from Adelie Pojzman-Pontay, Dominic Nicholls, and Dr. Yuri Shevchuk.

In this episode titled **"Tank Crew Wipes Out Russian Armoured Column & Putin Rejects Peace Talks," ** the podcast dives into pivotal developments in the ongoing Ukraine conflict as it enters its 1,071st day. Featuring discussions on the latest military engagements, economic implications of oil prices, and political dynamics following the Trump presidency's new stance, this summary highlights the key insights and expert opinions shared during the broadcast.
Key Highlights
1. Ukrainian Drone Attacks on Russian Oil Infrastructure
- Recently, Ukrainian drone strikes targeted several oil depots within Russia, notably in Nizhny Novgorod and Smolensk, causing significant damage.
- The Ukrainian military continues to utilize drones effectively, indicating an escalation in long-range strike capabilities.
- These actions may significantly impede Russian oil exports, which remain crucial to its economy.
2. Trump's Impact on Oil Prices
- Former President Donald Trump, in his second term, has indicated intentions to pressure OPEC to lower oil prices to further cripple Russian exports.
- Economic experts warn that lower oil revenue could weaken Moscow's finances amidst the ongoing conflict.
- Furthermore, reports suggest that major oil importers like China and India are stalling purchases due to rising transportation costs linked to sanctions, exacerbating Russia's economic struggles.
3. Military Analysis: Tank Warfare
- With the guest expert, Hamish De Bretton-Gordon, the discussion shifts towards military tactics, where a Leopard 2 tank was seen successfully targeting a Russian armored column.
- De Bretton-Gordon emphasizes the importance of effective tank training and coordination, contrasting with reported poor tactics and preparation among Russian forces.
- The podcast illustrates that the strategic use of tanks can have substantial tactical advantages when deployed effectively.
4. Russia's Refusal to Engage in Peace Talks
- Recent statements from Vladimir Putin indicate refusal to negotiate peace with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, whom he labels as illegitimate.
- American diplomats suggest that leveraging economic sanctions, especially concerning oil, could incentivize Russia to reconsider negotiations.
- Trump’s shifting rhetoric has presented a new dynamic to US-Russia relations, potentially affecting the diplomatic landscape moving forward.
Takeaway Insights
- The podcast underscores the intricate link between military actions and economic strategies in the ongoing conflict. The effectiveness of Ukrainian drone warfare highlights advancements in combat strategy.
- Analysts like Kurt Volker highlight that Trump’s new approach towards Russia presents an opportunity for stronger diplomatic leverage, especially centered around oil prices as a potential bargaining chip.
- While Putin's unyielding stance complicates prospects for peace, the deteriorating economic conditions in Russia may prompt a reevaluation of strategies as the conflict continues to evolve.
Conclusion
As the situation in Ukraine continues to develop, the combination of military tactics, economic strategies, and international politics plays a crucial role in shaping the future trajectory of the conflict. The podcast serves as a vital platform for analyzing these dynamics, providing valuable insights into the challenges and potential paths forward for Ukraine. Engaging discussions like these emphasize the ongoing importance of strategic military actions and the impact of global economic interdependencies in conflict scenarios.
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I'm Adelie Posman-Ponte, and this is Ukraine, the latest. Today we discuss Russian oil, as a Ukrainian drone attack hit yet another oil depot last night, and as Trump threatens to lower the price of oil and stall Russian exports. We also talk tank action with our guest Hamish Breden Gordon.
Bravery takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with victory. It's the worst carnage that this world has seen since World War II. Absolutely fascinating. We are with you, not just today or tomorrow, but for 100 years.
Nobody is going to break us. We are strong. We are Ukrainians. It's Wednesday, the 29th of January, two years and 334 days since the full-scale invasion began. I'm joined by Dom Nichols, Associate Editor for Defence, and Hey Mr. Bretton Gordon, former Tank Commander and Chemical Weapons Expert.
Let's start inside Russia. And there was another Ukrainian night drone raid across Russian energy infrastructure last night. Drone strikes were reported by local officials across several Russian regions, including the Nizhny Novgorod area that's about 300 kilometers east of Moscow. Also it's Smolensk, that's the same distance west of Moscow that abuts the border with Belarus.
There are blasts just to the north of that was also hit and Briansk are blasts that's down south on the border with Ukraine. Now a source in Ukraine's military intelligence told the key independent that the luke oil oil depot in the city of Gustavo in Nizhi Novgorod as I said 200k east of Moscow but a better number is 800 kilometers from the Ukrainian border.
That was targeted at around midnight local time by four drones, all of which seemed to have got through and hit the target, causing, quote, significant damage. However, Russian Governor Gleb Nikitin said air defense systems had shot down multiple drones, with no injuries reported, but that fragments from the intercepted drones fell on the industrial site.
Okay, I would just point to very dramatic images across a number of social media channels, including Telegram channels, that reportedly show the sight of that to the look of oil depot engulfed in an enormous blaze. The fragments from these drones that seem to fall out the sky seem just as dangerous as the actual drones themselves, if we ought to believe Governor Nikita.
In the Smolensk region, Governor Vasily Anakin said this morning that, in his words, a massive drone attack had hit civilian infrastructure. He also said one drone was intercepted while attempting to strike a nuclear energy facility. The local governor of Tver
also reported drones shot down and Russia's MOD said that their air defence units have brought down 26 drones in the Brienzk region. Now we've no way of verifying any of that. There is, as I say, imagery across social media showing the luke oil depot supposedly on fire. We can't verify any of the rest of it. But it's worth noting
that there are reports that Russia suspended departures and arrivals, all flights from Momentz Airport, Momentz 2000km away from Ukraine, also airports in Kazan and St Petersburg for a short time with drone activity as you reported in the area. Again, underlining the increased effectiveness of these long-range drones.
Then inside Ukraine, two people killed in the city of Nikolay, by a Russian missile strike. That was part of an overnight strike, which included 57 drones, of which 29 were shot down, 14 brought down by EW, but 14 other Russian drones did get through and caused damage and injuries. Now the Moscow Times are reporting today, so Moscow Times independent media, independent focused on Russia.
report in today that Chassiv-Yar, the city in the Dombas, has fallen to advancing Russian forces. They are citing five Ukrainian and European military and government sources that independently spoke to the outlet Moscow Times.
Now, neither Ukrainian nor Russian militaries have confirmed that the Moscow Times sources on the ground say that Ukrainian forces have been pushed right to the outskirts. That report is not backed up by today's update from the Deep State map, which is usually very reliable on these things. So, confusion as ever about what's happening on the front line, but we should keep our focus on chassis VR for the next 24 hours. Now, staying inside Ukraine,
An on-brae intelligence, the global risk management firm, they're reporting today that Russian forces launched a drone attack on the port of Ismail, that southwest of Odessa, right down on the border with Romania, it's on the river, the other side of which is Romania. Air raid sirens activated in the region just before were activated just before 2.30 a.m. local time in Ukraine. According to local sources, the port was targeted with multiple Shaheed 136 drones, probably those 14 that got through.
Ombre said they observed photographic evidence of a delta wing from one of the drones in the wreckage of a building in the area. No damage to merchant vessels was reported, however, buildings in the vicinity of the port were reportedly damaged. At the time of the incident, Ombre said there were 39 merchant vessels at the port and operating in the vicinity. That's one of the big ports for the grain trade.
Now, their advice is that vessels conducting Black Sea paw calls or advice to conduct comprehensive dynamic voyage threat assessments. The crew is advised to remain within the vessels designated safe muster point during any drone attacks. And that muster point should be located above the waterline, they say, and midships and low down in the superstructure.
Now, elsewhere, a couple of other bits of defence news here. An Australian volunteer soldier fighting for Ukraine, who was reported to have been executed by Russian forces after being taken prisoner, is thought to be alive. Australian Foreign Minister Penny Wong said today.
So this chap called Oscar Jenkins went missing on December the 16th last year on a combat mission near the village of Mickelivka in Luhansk. Ob Ukraine's ground forces command gave that information to the Ukrainian investigative journalism outlet Slid Stavo Info. Now the key Vinny says that a video that emerged that has emerged in the last couple of days on Russian telegram channels
Sorry, a video at the time, I apologise, that emerged on Russian telegram channels in late December, shows Mr Jenkins in military gear, military kit being interrogated by Russian captors, and on that video the man behind the camera asks his name and background and whether he wants to live whilst repeatedly beating him over the head.
Unverified reports then began circulating in mid-January that Mr Jenkins had been executed by his Russian captors, which prompted Australian officials to make urgent inquiries about his whereabouts. Then, today, Australia's Foreign Minister said her government had confirmed that he is being held as a prisoner of war.
Ms Wang said the Australian government has received confirmation from Russia that Oscar Jenkins is alive and in custody. We still hold serious concerns for Mr Jenkins as a prisoner of war. We've made clear to Russia in Canberra and in Moscow that Mr Jenkins is a prisoner of war and Russia is obligated to treat him in accordance with international humanitarian law, including humane treatment.
If Russia does not provide Mr Jenkins, the protections he is entitled to under international humanitarian law, our response will be unequivocal.
Just on that, the Guardian, a newspaper here in the UK, Guardian are reporting today that the Russian ambassador here has said Mr Jenkins is being held in the custody of the Russian armed forces whose members had initially detained him. He's said to be on Russian territory and his health condition is reported as, quote, normal, whatever that is, through the lens of the Russian ambassador.
So 32-year-old Oscar Jenkins, former teacher, said to be a very talented cricket and football player, studied biomedical sciences before working as a lecturer in China, reportedly travelled to Ukraine to enlist last year.
And then the last one for me, Adley, a bit confusing this, a bit detailed, so try to stick with it, because I think it is not great news for Ukraine's MOD. But the National Anti-Corruption Bureau has launched a criminal investigation into the potential abuse of power by Defense Minister Rustam Emerov. This comes from Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty. They reported it yesterday.
So what's going on here? Last Thursday, the Defence Procurement Agencies Supervisory Board, a Defence Procurement Agency, that part of the Ukraine and MOD that's responsible for buying kits and stuff. They voted unanimously to extend the current Director Marina Bezurekova's contract for another year. She took over in January last year, contract up for renewal now.
they voted to extend it. However, Defence Minister Richard Maerov overruled the ball's decision the next day, so last Friday, saying that he would not renew Ms Bezrakova's contract as head of the agency, citing allegedly unsatisfactory results. He also dismissed two other board members at the agency.
Then following that, the Anti-Corruption Action Center filed a complaint with the National Anti-Corruption Bureau, asked them to open an investigation against a mayor on suspicion of alleged abuse of power. Now then, what's the nitty gritty? So according to Ukrainian law, supervisory boards do have the authorities to hire and fire anyone they like as heads of state enterprises. So legally, after that board's vote,
Ms. Bezrakova should have been able to stay at the procurement agency for another year. However, Ukraine's MOD, which obviously owns, oversees the DPA, the Defense Procurement Agency, recently made amendments to the charter, allowing it to reverse the supervisory board's decisions. And it's that bit. Anti-corruption activists and lawyers say is the illegal bit, the unlawful bit. They say the amendments and a mere of decision are unlawful. So for now,
The DPA, the Defence Procurement Agency, has said it's going to continue to operate under Ms Bezrakova's leadership. But the whole thing is a bit of a mess. It's a challenge to Mr. Omerov's authority. I think, given the gravitas of it, I think it's going to take an intervention probably from President Zelinski or certainly his office.
which we'll see turmoil, either because a mare off is going to be removed, or we might resign in disgust, or Ms. Bezrakova will jump or be pushed, and then the DPA will have his nose put out a joint. Anyway, all a distraction, a distraction that Ukraine does not need right now, and a bit of turmoil at the top of one of the most important agencies within Ukraine's MOD. So a bit of a mess, Adley, there, but one that could have far-reaching consequences. And that's us up to date.
Thanks, Dom. Francis is not joining us today, so I will cover diplomacy and politics. We are one week into Trump presidency 2.0. Francis has covered this many times, but just to summarize, in his first presidency, Trump supported Putin. Since then, in his election campaign, he has repeatedly criticized USA to Ukraine. The big question is, what will he do now?
Since last week, Trump has been taking a slightly different approach. He's been waving around the prospect of potential sanctions against Russia. He's threatened high tariffs and tightened sanctions. On this subject, our friends at the Kyiv Indy have interviewed former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Kurt Volker. He underscored that Trump's position at the moment is a very different line than what we've heard before. He's previously argued for restraint and compromises from both sides. This is very different.
Here's what Kurt Volker says about Trump's new position. They establish that Putin is the one who has to act, and it's establishing that Putin is in a weak position and Trump in a strong position, which is also very good. Now Volker's analysis is that Trump is establishing psychological and diplomatic dominance over Putin, even before starting any peace negotiations.
Has it worked? Well, Putin told reporters a few days ago that he was willing to engage in talks with Trump's. The question remains, is Putin being honest? That is not very much what the signals are pointing to here. This morning, our colleagues at Radio Free Europe reported that Putin had again rolled out direct peace talks with Ukrainian President Zelensky, whom he has called illegitimate.
Now, that prompted Zelensky to respond, that Putin was being afraid of negotiating a settlement. None of that is looking very good. That brings us to what the US could use as leverage against Russia. And that's oil exports. That's something we've talked about many times on the podcast.
As a reminder, Trump has announced a day vase last week that he would ask the OPEC countries, that's the five countries who produced 30% of the world's oil, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, to work in coordination with the United States to lower the global price of oil. That could tank Russia's main source of revenue, but the effects of such a decision could take months to be felt. Meanwhile, pressure could come from other fronts.
Fascinatingly, Reuters reported yesterday that China and India have stalled in their purchasing of Russian oil due to rising transportation costs. That's because there's a finite number of tankers that aren't affected by US sanctions. These tankers are harder to combine, they make shipping costs more expensive and therefore that increases the price of the barrel.
On X, formerly Twitter, economist Robin Brooks also shares an interesting graph in analysis on EU oil imports from Russia. It shows that Greece, in particular, is the biggest bio of Russian oil, closely followed by other Western countries. Robin Brooks points out that more EU sanctions could potentially stop this and continue to wall out Russia from the global oil market.
That leaves us with a question. Could all of that be used as leverage in future peace talks? That's something we will be returning to in this podcast. Francis has been talking to some experts this morning on this very issue, and he will be back tomorrow with updates.
Now, from tankers to tanks, let's go to Hamish to Britain Gordon next. Hamish? A pleasure always. Where do you want to start? Well, there are really two things I think to talk about today and some tank action, which I know that Don will be interesting to discuss as well, which I think is really significant. But I think first, just following on from your piece, Adley, I was at a webinar yesterday with several friends at the podcast, General Sir Richard Sherif.
jade mclin and also laura brady and this was actually a webinar slash podcast by the cyber security people say six so it was very much in that sphere but there was a really interesting report
by Arendelle Associates and Laura Brady presented it on the state of the Russian economy. I think it's just worth it. Unfortunately, I can't publish the report on the website, the notes of the pod, but Laura has said I can quote from it. I think people will find it interesting. I think, first of all, reported Russian casualty rates, average
1,566 per day for the first six weeks to mid-January, while the longevity of the Ukrainian forces' presence inside Russia's Kerse Obelisk approaches six months. Total Russian casualties, including kills seriously wounded,
Missing and captured is projected to reach 1 million men on or around the public holiday on the 9th and May, which commemorates the victory of the USSR over Nazi Germany in the Second World War, so hugely significant.
And recruitment of Russian fighters is becoming more and more difficult to sustain and more costly as pro rural areas continue to shoulder the burden of the war dead. And I know yesterday you talked about the North Korean element too here. Moving on to the sort of financial sector, compulsory soft commercial loans to the military industrial complex. Believed to be of the approximate size of the total defense budget,
is fueling inflation and political pressure on the central bank of Russia is preventing it from raising interest rates above 21% to what is it thought to require of 23% and rumors of a freeze of retail bank deposits continue to circulate and trust in the Russian authorities is declining significantly and onto the point that you have just been making
projected income from Russian energy experts exports looks uncertain due to a combination of Ukraine attacks on the refineries and other chemical petrochemical infrastructure. Ukraine's refusal to extend the gas transit agreement and the US plans to increase energy experts.
And of course, a newly augmented President Trump calling on the OPEC to reduce all prices could have a really significant effect. So that report to me was really a decent summation of what's happening perhaps in Moscow and the round. But my real sort of error of interest at the moment is very much the tactical level. And the sort of tank action now
People who follow me on the pod on X would have seen a video yesterday that was actually all over the X and all the rest of the social media about a leopard to tank crude by Ukrainian armed forces taking out a Russian armored column. Now, I know we've seen a lot of this, but I thought this was a really interesting piece and illustrates a whole bunch of areas. First of all, training.
We've discussed previously that the challenge to North Koreans having actually new Russian conscripts is they are not trained. There's no time to train. Therefore, they can only do very, very simple maneuvers, which is why the casualty rates are so high. But if we look at this video, we've got a Leopard 2 German tank, 120mm smoothball gun, very accurate, very mobile.
an MTU power pack armor based on the British daughter Surama. So really capable. And in this video, we're seeing one tank. I mean, that's the only issue. Tanks and armored vehicles usually work with what we call mutual support. So while one tank is moving, another one is covering it to prevent it being taken out. But having said this, I think it just shows the capability of the Leopard 2. It attacks a Russian armored column.
interesting to note here, this column is moving along a road, very deliberate movement, no attempt to sort of maneuver as we'd call it, and actually, you know, very similar spacing between all these vehicles. And the leopard takes the first tank out, well, first tank armored vehicle out, and then takes sort of takes the others out. You'll see what the leopard two is doing, what we call jockeying.
What I mean by that is it fars around, it moves back, it moves to another position. It is basically moving far enough so that if an enemy tank or enemy vehicle can see it in its site picture, in other words, a commander looking through his site sees a distance about 200 meters. If you can move so that that commander then cannot see you, then it makes it much more difficult to acquire that target.
And that is exactly what we're seeing the leopard to doing here. It's also what we describe as producing an infillade far from a deflade position now to slightly unpack that.
when the best way to take out a tank is where the armour is leased and that is based on the sides and the back so ideally you wanted to be in a position sort of side on or in naval parlance crossing the tiers it were so that you can fire into the side of that vehicle and that that is pretty much what the leopard does here so it is in what we call a deflate position
producing M-flade fire. So that's into the side of it. I'm sure people have heard old tankies like me and Dom talk about this frequently. But that's what we mean. We want to hit it on the side. Although there are also elements where the tank is firing direct. But when it's firing an armored, Russian armored vehicle like a BMP2 or a BIDM, they really can't protect themselves against main arm and 120 millimeter
Firing at 1500 meters per second, a lump of tungsten, you need some sophisticated armour to do that. So I think that was very interesting, a really good demonstration of how to use tank. I think the final bit here, and I'm about to finish, Adley, is what is really important, I think, for the UK.
is our own tank fleet. We've discussed before how few they are and we know that there were 14 Challenger 2 sent to Ukraine. We believe two might have been knocked out and there was some videos a few weeks ago detailing one Challenger 2 that had been knocked out. It had taken a hell of a lot of punishment, I might say.
there. I think it is common knowledge that Britain is getting a new tank, imagined to be called Challenger 3, and it looks remarkably like Challenger 2. But the significant thing is actually what it appears to incorporate is a lot of the good things about the Leopard 2 that I've just been describing. And unsurprisingly, the new Challenger 3 has been made by Ryan Matau, who make
the Leopard 2 as well. And I just sort of, you know, I don't want to be cynical or anything else, but the 120mm smoothball main armament that we see doing so much damage is the one that's going to be in Challenger 3. The MTU power pack engine in normal parlance, good old, very reliable, very powerful. The Challenger 2 always suffered from being underpowered. That is going to be in a Challenger 3. The armor is sort of similar.
I'm sort of saying the Challenger 3, you know, ain't going to be very much a difference to a Challenger 2, to a leopard 2. Sorry, Freudian slipped there. You know, perhaps we might have, you know, there could have been a shortcut to getting a new tank. I do understand that the Challenger 3 will also have upgraded fire control systems and also protection against drones and other bits and pieces.
So, so that that is really on the face of I think a really good small bit of action and the final bit of this. Yeah, I I being a tag role tank regiment officer joined Scotland's finest role tank regiment, the fourth role tank regiment, but I'm sure Dom as the Scots are getting guard might argue with that.
Our greatest tank action was the Battle of Aris, 20th of May 1940, where actually on a slightly bigger scale, the 4th Royal Tank Regiment did pretty much the same as we're seeing this leopard 2 doing, hitting a column at the front and the back and taking it out, and the Aris counterattack in 1940,
What actually was a local tactical action but had a strategic impact? Not suggesting that this leper 2 is going to have a strategic impact here but it is a really good evidence of actually it looks like the Ukraine tank crews are really well trained and given the right kit they can do the job. Over. Thanks Hamish. Dom, I think you had a few comments and questions on tanks.
Thanks, I'm obviously going to brush off the comment about the finest tank regiment in the British Army, we all know which one that was, but I was interested with this film, I'll be keen to hear your thoughts on it, and you say the crews were probably not as well trained as crews would have been a couple of years ago, but in the
Well the lexicon of how to survive as a as a tanky when you're going up against up against the enemy it's firstly it's don't be there so if you have to move somewhere you don't go where you know the enemy are trying to be sneaking come around where they're not so don't be there
If you have to be there, don't be seen. If you're seen, don't be acquired. If you're acquired, don't be hit. If you're hit, don't be penetrated. So there's all this kind of onion layer approach to how to survive as a tank on the battlefield. Sometimes you can't help but be there if you've got to assault an enemy position. But yeah, don't be seen. Use of smoke, other obscurants, use of ground, et cetera.
don't be acquired with thermal paint and so on and so all this kind of stuff. So I was really surprised that they just they failed the most basic elements of this. They went toe to toe with a leopard too. And even though they were they were front on the strongest part of the armor being at the front of a hull in the turret.
No match for a leper to in a straight sort of punch up. So is this Hamish? Do you think this just comes down to the the people crew in these Russian tanks now? I've just I've just been thrown into it and they don't they don't know what they're doing or is this still still an example of Russia not not learning or thinking that mass even in tanks will work as they've done the sort of human waves with infantry are they trying that with tanks and I was very surprised I I linked that to this announcement that yesterday where we think
Russia's reorganised the makeup of the military to have drone units, drone battalions, right down at brigade level, so much, much closer, rather than being held up at the lovely heights of senior generals and all the rest of it. So I was very surprised at these tanks that they were there, that they were not covered in smoke, they didn't have a big drone swarm supporting them, flying ahead of them and so on and so forth. So what is going on is it's still the case, that they're just not training their crews properly.
Yeah, really good observations there, Dom. I think basically it is on the training side of it. You know how difficult it is to do anything unless you're well-trained, and it's slightly easier if it's only a single tank. But when you're trying to coordinate three or four, it also go back to the premise of what we've discussed before, the holy trinity of fire power protection and mobility.
The leopard 2 has it all, whereas the T64 or T72 maybe it is there, you know, really trades off on protection for everything else. So even in the frontal arc it will be taken out. But you're right. I mean, that announcement yesterday that you guys discussed about the drone units down at the lowest level, you sort of think, well, maybe the Russians are getting a grip of this. But then again, you see action like that. I think I might have mentioned the other day when I was
In Syria, I met a Syrian armored divisional commander who fought in the 67 War and had his T-72 shot out from under him four times. I mean, how on earth he survived.
I don't know, but I think it really does actually go back to the whole training piece that Russia is still, you know, still relies on mass to try and make gains as it did at the Great Battle of Kursk in 1943, and actually as the Allies did towards the end of the Second World War.
When we look at the casualty rates and talk about a million casualties by the ninth of May this year, you just can't imagine that it's sustainable.
maybe, although we have discussed before, the Russians trying to do a really big push before Trump, you know, direct some sort of ceasefire in the near future, and trying to regain Kursk has been something that Putin is desperately trying to do. So we'll take risks. But yeah, it is a bit of a dichotomy. And without that announcement yesterday of the drone, I wouldn't think
I would think the Russians are continuing on this sort of mass slaughter type environment. I don't know, what do you think though?
Well, I think it is. I think it's the porosity of training. I think they just assume they can blunder their way through with numbers. But just one more question, Hamish. And back to the old canard of has the tank had its day. And I know that we, I think that was brushed off at the start of the full scale invasion by saying that the tanks are still very much in vogue. Hence, Ukraine's desire to get as many as they can from the West. But I think now with three years of data, we can actually look back and
And analyze this again, ask the question again. So let's go back to basics. What is a tank for? A tank cannot hold ground. Only infantry can actually hold ground. A tank is extremely vulnerable, as we've said, from the rear of the sides, the belly and the top. So it cannot hold ground. It's there, basically, to kill other tanks and other armored vehicles, but essentially to kill other tanks. And what range is it going to do that at? Well, between 2 and 4 kilometers, generally ish. That's the kind of engagement range of the main barrel from a tank.
Well, what's right in that zone now between between the enemy between the front lines, the two and four kilometer distance, that's dominated by first person view drones. So I just question again, I think it's worth probably a deeper dive for another day. But this idea that has the tanks day come, is it is it is it consigned to history now with the advent of first person view drones with the
their ubiquitous nature, the way they can get around a lot of electronic warfare jamming, different ways of doing that. Of course, it's still very vulnerable to weather, but I just wonder if we can legitimately re-examine that question about, has the tank had its day? What do you reckon?
Well, I'm very conscious. Sadly, I've got to dash off for the Tisbury Express to get up to town, actually, to tall tanks. But the one thing I'd say, I mean, tanks are all about shock action. And shock action on the battlefield will never get old. But I think you've got a real point here. The only thing I would say is, as a threat evolves, then counter a threat evolves. So although, as you say, FPV,
FPV drones are the sort of weapon of choice at the moment. A lot's been done to protect tanks against them. You know, as in the First World War, we put chicken wire on the top of tanks to prevent the Germans throwing sticky bombs on top of them. In a similar fashion, people are looking at how you can protect a tank. And I don't think it's a secret. I think we discussed it. DSTL put down a developing
a high pad laser that can be carried on a tank that can knock down thousands of drones at a time. Now, whether that technology is 10 years away or two years away, I don't know. But I think there will be a counter to FPV drones. They are going to hamper tank action. But I think the main ability of tanks to provide shock action
has endured since Conbrae in 1917 and I think it's still got a bit of endurance to come over and out. Dr Yuri Shevchuk is senior lecturer in Ukrainian at Columbia University, New York and heads the only permanent forum for Ukrainian film in the US.
Dr. Chevchuk's interests include the Ukrainian language, film, culture and identity, socio-linguistics, language and politics. One of his central arguments is that modern Ukrainian films and TV present Ukraine as if it were largely depopulated of Ukrainians, only occupied by Russians or russified Ukrainians. He argues that this tradition started with Soviet film through what he calls cultural aggression and continues to this day.
I spoke to him with Telegraph reporter Alex Chutac. Here is our conversation. Hello. Thank you for joining us on the podcast today. You're welcome. It's my pleasure. First of all, could you briefly outline your work? Well, I have taught Ukrainian at various universities in the United States, starting with Harvard in 1990 and then in Colombia on a permanent basis since 2004.
And I also teach Ukrainian Soviet and post-Soviet film. I teach a course which is called Soviet colonial post-colonial film. I have written about film, Ukrainian film, Soviet film. And I founded in 2004, 20 years ago, the Ukrainian Film Club at Columbia University, which has been the only permanent forum of Ukrainian film in North America.
So we have screened and discussed films both on campus, but also at various universities in North America, including Harvard, the University of Toronto, McGill, and a couple of times outside North American Europe, in Italy, in Spain, and in England. And we have a sizable collection of the Ukrainian film, including rare films like, you know,
diploma graduation projects of filmmakers who are now who made it and who are now quite well known. And I also am a lexicographer. I offer Ukrainian English collocation experience, which is published in 2021. First edition, I also offered the textbook of beginners Ukrainian
which is a popular textbook for learners of Ukrainian in North America. Okay, and could you give us a brief outline of how the cinema of Ukraine has developed from Soviet times to independence? Well, cinema in a number of ways reflects the space of Ukrainian society, and it has faced similar challenges as the society has since independence.
And the most serious one was the colonial Russian imperial colonial legacy that it had to deal with. And that legacy, sorry, cinema is consisted in the fact that the Soviets starting with
really with early 1990s, they used the film as a political instrument as a means to protect the policies, control, and influence the formation of identity, spread propaganda, and condition how people thought of themselves and of others.
And in that sense, cinema presented Ukrainians as an identity that was kind of interior, secondary and deeply dependent on the great Russian identity. And so Ukrainians kind of inherited film that presented them in a way that made it very, very difficult or problematic for an average Ukrainian to identify with the kind of image of Ukrainians that they saw on screen.
And in that sense, Ukrainians, as the Soviet cinema presented them, they were devoid of capacity to change anything. Of the road, I would like to call it agency. So they were devoid of agency. They're independent agency. If something was happening that was always together with Russia and on the commission of
of the Muslim Russian people. So the question of who Ukrainians are, what they are about, was one of the focal points that society at large and Ukrainian cinema were faced with. And Ukrainian cinema up until today was not able, has not been able to give a kind of definitive answer
what it means to be Ukrainian. So there was kind of two starkly different approaches to that. One was that Ukrainian is a geographical kind of concept. If you are in Ukraine, if you have a Ukrainian passport, that makes you Ukrainian. The other one was the kind of essential understanding of being Ukrainian, of being a Ukrainian film. And that's
consisted in the kind of belief that the Ukrainian film is to be based on a Ukrainian narrative. It has to be made by Ukrainian talent. It has to be made in Ukrainian, about Ukrainians, and in the way that it reflects the culture, the history, the national spirits, the psychology if you want of Ukrainians. And so this latter understanding of Ukrainians was
and has been kind of actively rejected by people who made decisions what kind of films could be made. Those people as a lot of political Ukrainian elites kind of inherited traditional Soviet views and ideology. And so it was a very slow and arduous process of this kind of mental decolonization of Ukrainian filmmakers in Ukrainian film.
the kind of deducification that kind of meant not only turning to Ukrainian subject matter, Ukrainian narratives, but also making films in Ukrainian. Has this what you term cultural aggression and how has this use of language impacted the way that Ukrainians perceive themselves as a people?
Yes, and this kind of, I found this kind of mode of representation of Ukraine is on screen, to be in harmony with the analysis of the whole of the more of the man-made famine of 1932, by a refined lamkin, the person who was the first one to kind of highlight the whole of the more of the case study of genocide. And then he says that whole of the more,
consisted of a four-prong attack against the Ukrainian civilization, Ukrainian identity. One was the blow to the head, which is the destruction of Ukrainian cultural and political release, the blow to the heart, the second one, the destruction of Ukrainian religious self-organization, churches and everything, the blow to the body, which is the destruction of
peasantry, millions of them, the principal carrier of Ukraine. And the fourth one, which is important to me, was the depopulation of Ukraine, physical depopulation of Ukraine, and resettlement of Russian, of the depopulated area. And I thought, this is exactly what's happening in dozens of Russian and Ukrainian films, when Ukraine has
as an ethnoscape is depopulated, is devoid, is deranged from its indigenous population, Ukrainians, and repopulated either by Russian, which I call complete cinematographic depopulation, or by these concocted, constructed, caricature-like, racist, stereotype to Ukrainians
that have nothing to do with Ukrainians. That kind of presents Ukrainians in such a way that a Ukrainian viewer is disgusted, reposed, and would never want love or money to be the kind of Ukrainian they see on the silver screen.
So that's what I mean by filmmaking as cultural aggression. It's fascinating. It sounds as if for all Russia's talk of there's no difference between Russians and Ukrainians. Ukraine doesn't have it. It is not a sovereign nation. A nation has no agency. It's not an independent country. We're all brothers together. Actually, they put a huge amount of effort into underlining
their own understanding that Ukraine is a separate nation, a completely separate cultural identity. Is that fair? And what's happened since, not only since the 1991 independence, as you say, but since the invasion of 2014? Well, there has been a radical rethinking of the role of Ukraine and still, and including its role as an instrument
It can be used and should be used to repel Russian cultural aggression. So, but that was done kind of halfway hesitantly because the kind of the extent of the penetration of Russian influences into Ukrainian culture has not yet been fully appreciated. And therefore, for instance, Ukrainian films, this is my last publication,
in the Ukrainian film industry magazine called Kimokolo where I called for a great revision of the Ukrainian film. There has not been reconsideration of the imperial legacy that is still very much in place among Ukrainian filmmakers in Ukrainian filmmaking community. So for instance, if you look at the film that was made in 2017 called
The cybers, heroes never die. And the film is based on the real-life story of Yale on defense, the heroic defense of the international airports in the next. You see how very heavily, I mean, despite all the patriotic intentions of its direction and the script right, see Russian means and Russian kind of claims rebroadcast in that film. One of them is like,
what is happening in Russian aggression against Ukraine is not quite so simple. And so the film like shows and speaks almost exclusively about the so-called Cephas, which is like a majority reference to separatists, like the principle enemy of that Ukrainian fighters in the cyber fighting.
And only one in one episode, you see a Russian soldier, a prisoner of war, who is presented in a sympathetic way as somebody confused, who comes from some Vladimir region of Russia, who was parachuted into Ukraine without having been told about what they've been doing to him. And the viewer is actually asked to sympathize with this guy. But what's happening, the film suggests,
basically a civil war to treat that, you know, defend Ukrainian government against separatists. So that's, and that the film was touted like the epitome of the new genre of Ukrainian patriotic film. And I'm not saying that they did it on purpose, but they did it almost subconsciously without really realizing how the film is
perceived. And after the 22 incursion, the film industry in Ukraine, of course, suffered hugely. But there has been a boom in documentary films. Could you tell us a bit about that? Yes. Well, invasion provoked a lot of people simply react in a direct way, just put aside whatever they were doing and just enlist in the army. And a lot of Ukrainian filmmakers, my friends,
also did that, and they started immediately kind of filming what is going on, and immediately kind of putting it together into films. And there are some very, very powerful documentary films out there. Every year is the outbreak of the full-scale invasion. There has been one, two, three very powerful films that got not on international
film circuits, I'm thinking of such films as the 20 days of Mario Paul, that got the Oscar, I'm thinking of the film by a privilege that intercepted the good people that uses open source information of the conversations, Russian soldiers conversations with their families that describe the atrocities that they commit in Ukraine.
in a way that is absolutely kind of shocking to the core. I screened the film here in New York, and I saw people, how people react to do it. There's now the film, yesterday we screened the film at the J-School, the School of Generalism, the Club of Generalism, the film Pozzling War, about also a documentary, I saw it slide.
somewhere in Warsaw, and it's now shortlisted for the Oscars. And it's about Harkib and the war in Harkib from the point of view of two artists who are making China, porcelain. And so the documentary, the war kind of caused a strange, if not not unexpected, flourishing of the entire documentary
genre of Ukrainian filmmaking and there are a number of other films in production so this is really something to you know to follow I'm sure there will be more and more films coming out. Dr. Shavjev, thank you so much for talking to Ukraine the latest today. You're very welcome. All the best for you. The world doing a good job.
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