Well given Nick's reporting, really from across the whole of Europe on migration this week, as he has done in the past, we thought it made sense for a bit of context, a bit of background for you to hear his reporting from Bulgaria and Istanbul. So this is a special edition of this podcast with that reporting. Let's do it.
OK, Nick, it's Monday morning. You've just come off after presenting the Today program from the border between Bulgaria and Turkey. Describe exactly where you are and what were those strange sounds that I could hear when we were live on air? I mean, it was definitely some form of animal and there's a crackling wood, I think.
Yes, I've never presented the programme anywhere quite like this. We're in a tiny little farming village, almost deserted. There are some elderly farmers who still live in this village, called Stit, which means shield, and it's named that way, because it is on the border. This is a place of conflict for centuries. It is now the front line of the battle in Europe
to stop people crossing from Turkey, migrants crossing from Turkey to make their journey into the EU. So a couple of hundred metres from where I'm broadcasting is a rather terrifying fence of razor wire which is watched by cameras, by drones and by passing patrol cars, one of which popped in to see us while we're on there to check
how we were behaving and that we didn't go and take photographs of the border. But yes, the crackling you heard was absolutely necessary. We've got a furnace here to keep us warm in a little community centre. And I'm looking over a scene of dirt, roads, of tumble down cottages and of farms filled with rusting machinery in the sound you heard, with the occasional sound of a cockrel and a dog roaming the streets. I'll tell you what else I heard at 8.30 on the Monday edition of the Today program we had
We had Rob Jones from the National Crime Agency and he said to you that where you are is the absolute crucible of this trade, this illegal trade, this organised crime that sends migrants illegally from Southeastern Europe through Europe and eventually to the UK.
The region that you're in at the moment is the crucible for organised immigration crime where facilitators meet migrants and those who are involved in the smuggling model. Their logistics bring the consignments of boats and migrants together and bring them through to the beaches of Northern France. And what was striking about that Nick is there you have a guy who is a UK official.
saying that where you are is absolutely key area. So the implications of all of this for UK politics with huge concern about migration both legal and illegal are huge. That's right. And the reason it's the crucible is because many of the boats that you see crossing the channel, those rubber inflatables have been made specially and wherever they've been made in Turkey.
and they are then transported across the border, not far from where I'm broadcasting from now, and they make their way through Germany, into France and eventually to the channel where they're used to cross over. And in addition to that trade in the boats,
there is of course a trade in people. People coming either across the sea from Turkey to Greece or across the land here, which is a pretty horrific journey for people often having to walk for days to climb over this fence using a ladder because otherwise they're going to get their hands shredded or to get under it or round it using the rivers. I reported from this border spot
for Monday's program, and my guide there was one man who successfully made the journey. An Iranian refugee who didn't feel he belonged in Turkey anymore, a man called Hamid, who showed me what we could see beyond the gorgeous rolling fields and the beauty of this part of Bulgaria.
So here we are. This is a fence. We're very far away but actually it was just very close. My guide to the border is Hamid, a man who escaped from Iran to Turkey and then found himself thrown out of that country and decided to cross this border to make his way to safety in Bulgaria. He works now with an NGO that helps others like him who've made that journey.
I feel like we're at the top of the world, now we can see all the way around us, rolling hills, this tiny, really almost disused village here, isn't it, the odd farm, houses that have collapsed? So, this is Bulgaria? Yeah, at the south we can see the Turkey, and at east it will be Greece. So this is also the border of the EU? Yes, the first border of EU, as you see the fence is almost like four metres,
But the wire is not visible from here, but because I know I crossed it. So from close this one you can see that there is wires on it, that the diameter is 1 meter. So half meter outside from left, half meter outside from right.
Yes, it's not just going up in the air. It's sticking out as well. Yes, also at the top, it's even become more. So they are very sharp and almost impossible to climb them with bare hands. So, what? You have to use ladders? Usually they're using ladders. But there are some places that they already cut it. And sometimes there is pipe under it to gather the water. And yes, there is some bar on it, but they cut also the bars.
So when you came across this border, you didn't cross this fence. What did you do instead? So after I lived the town in Turkey and walking for almost half a day, I reached to the river. And this river was very white, and I have to swim on it. I was prepared myself, so I had big plastic bags to put my stuff on it. And I was swimming more than a minute to cross this river. So everything you own, you're either wearing or it's in a plastic bag,
Yeah. On the river. On the river. Yeah. Everything was there.
We'd been here at this border for just a few minutes when a patrol car pulled up. Two police officers in uniform came to say, they'd seen two men and a woman, my producer, looking over the border. Who were we? They wanted to know what we were doing, what was our intention. This is for a balloon picture upon the other face.
The agreement between Bulgaria and Turkey is forbidden from Bulgaria to Turkish side and from the Turkish side. I can't picture all of you. Oh no, this is me talking to the camera. Thank you. Good to talk. Good day.
This village is called shtit, which means shield, a shield on the border. It's a place of dirt roads, of rundown farms, of falling down houses, dogs barking, only the old are left here now. But one farmer in his 70s says, he's seen the people cross the border. He's met the people, desperate people, coming with their children.
He has seen a whole family of Syrian refugees, a whole family with children, they walked around here. They were just over here? Yes, they were just over there. And he saw them, he called the police and the police came and picked them up. With little children?
three small children on the shoulders. And he felt very sad for them. Yeah, does this happen often? Yeah, it happens from time to time.
Now this I did not expect in this tiny rather rundown village is a rather wonderful restaurant with a worn welcome and a chef called Nikolai. Nikolai, we're right on the border here. Yeah? The border with the turkey. Do you see many migrants try to cross the border? I feel very safety on this place. Because here many more policemen
In the past, there were a lot of migrants that came in. Before tears, many more. Fujis, but now it's not. Now not? Because the police? Yes, and correct. Protect. They protect the area. They have cameras. Cameras, front-texts, policemen of Germany, Poland and different Europe countries.
What you might wonder has all this got to do with the arguments about stopping the boats or smashing the gangs that bring people across the channel to Britain? The answer, quite simply, is everything.
When countries like Turkey turn their back on refugees and want them to leave, they head to Europe and some inevitably want to make their way to the UK. And what's more, the boats that cross the channel are made in Turkey. They cross the border here.
into Bulgaria, eventually to Germany where they're stored, onto France and the Channel Tunnel. So, as month in, month out, the numbers crossing the Channel still increases, a government promising to do something about it has to care what happens here amidst these rundown houses along this dirt road, along this border that divides Europe with the world beyond.
All right, so Nick, that was you reporting from the Bulgarian side of the border, but you've also been to one of the great cities of the world. Istanbul.
glorious places, isn't it? The Turkish city of Istanbul, home to so many of the refugees who came to Turkey. Initially, when they came across the border from Syria after that terrible civil war, most had to stay in that border region. But over time, more and more people have come to cities like Istanbul, along with refugees from the Afghan war as well. And many of them all have made their homes successfully there. They own businesses, shops,
restaurants and the light, but a grown number are feeling uncomfortable. Uncomfortable because the mood in Turkey has changed, because politicians have exploited that mood, as the economy has struggled to grow, as ordinary Turks have got poorer.
It has been the fate of the migrants to be blamed for that problem. President Erdogan at a recent election saying that he would like the guests, as he called them, of Turkey, to make their way home. I met a number of those refugees, including some who had tried to make the journey across the border. One of them was Mohammed.
So it was a smuggler, he asked us to put the money in the third party, which both of us would trust and would know. So we put the money for $4,000 and we don't know the smuggler, we don't know his name, we don't know his shape. We get in a car, closed car and they talk us to the border.
I've come to a cafe and shisha bar in Essenut, a district of Istanbul that not just has the most Syrians in this city, but the biggest population in Turkey as a whole. In the corner, they're playing Rummy with tiles instead of cards.
People are drinking coffee. They're smoking. I've come here to meet Mohammed, who's tried to get out of this country not once but twice. The second time crossing the border with Bulgaria, paying smugglers to help and do so, but having to cross a potentially dangerous river.
to get to Europe, to get to a new life. You have to walk after crossing the river, you have to walk for 48 hours, sometimes more. But in our case, after 24 hours, we were spotted by the Bügglen Emperor and we got captured.
We were beaten, they were just stripped out from our clothes, they just kept us in a basement, they beat us, they insulted us, so that's why I decided to never go again.
If I said now, I want to cross the border from Turkey to Bulgaria. How easy would it be? How quick would it be to get that organised? You should have the money and you should ask and really investigate the issue. Which smuggle is best? You should ask by going to the internet, you can go to TikTok, they even have accounts, they do live streams on TikTok, so you should ask about that.
They had the information from the people who arrived. They sent a reference. This smuggler was good, so you can go with him. This sounds like shopping on the internet for a new TV. You get a review, you get a recommendation, you ask your friends. That's how you decide which people smuggle it to use.
Exactly, it's like that. We ask many people, not just one review, we ask two, three, maybe four people before talking to the smuggler. Is he really serious about this job?
Mohammed wants to leave because he no longer feels welcome in Turkey. President Erdogan has said it's time his country's guests went home. My grunts without papers are being arrested and deported, even those with them can face being harassed and abused. My guide to the changing mood here is another Syrian refugee, Hassan.
Hi. Hello. Assam. Welcome to Fatih. This is the bazaar. Yeah, this is the bazaar of Fatih. It's a bit crowded right now after the Friday's prayer. You can see the Syrian shops here. Many of these shops were not here in 2015. After that.
This street really changed, this bazaar really changed. You have falafel, you have chawarma, you have many shops that is Syrian food. Welcome. Do you recognise these tenants? Yes, it needs some nostalgic memories because you have many things, the same design, the same colours, so this is really good. Let's go in. Hi. How are you? This is beautiful. What is it? It's not a cake. Full of pistachios. What is this? Halwa for... Halwa for a pharmacy. No, it's halwa.
How long have you lived here in Istanbul? Before ten years. I like Turkey and I stay here and I speak Turkish. For me, don't have any problem. But for... sorry, I'll be bored. I think I have some problem here. They get hassle? So, how's that? It's not just a halver is sweet. He feels sweet about living in Turkey still.
Yeah, because he just adapted for the situation. He has his small shop. Also, he said something very important that many people here are afraid of many foreigners or refugees coming to their country. So they are a bit cautious, a bit afraid. Now it looks like a safe place for Syrians to live. But is it? It was a comfortable, safe place for Syrians, but in the past few, let's say years.
It's not safe anymore for many Syrians. There are just a few groups of racist people who don't like refugees. Even the normal community here, they are not welcoming them. Because especially in the public transportation, let's say you're going in the tram, you cannot speak comfortably in Arabic with your phone. Because many incidents happened. People attacked because they were speaking Arabic on the phone. So this was really an issue for many Syrians here. So they cannot speak Arabic in public comfortably.
The mood here has changed and changed dramatically. A once-warm welcome for refugees has turned into a hope they'll leave at best and at worst outright hostility. Emmacing Claire Webb's lived in this city for 14 years.
She works for human rights watch. Previous Erdogan governments did the right thing in accepting refugees. They played an enormous role in protecting Syrians from the terrible civil war in Syria.
gave Syrian some kind of chance of a future instability that has gone because politically the atmosphere has changed. However, the situation in Syria is still so dangerous and it's so dangerous for people to be sent back there. And has it changed partly because there's now an openly anti-refugee party?
Yes, there's certainly an anti-refugee party that's pulled everything to the right and has a xenophobic discourse, which it's proud of, things that in the past were not sayable and now stated out loud, hatred of foreigners, hatred of refugees, an idea that you should go back to Syria, go back to Afghanistan, a particularly shocking
illustration of this is a party in Turkey called the Victory Party which had at one stage a logo of a bus and this bus was to signify that they would send Syrians to Syria by bus.
We're not a very subtle party, and that's why we have a following that's amassing. We're growing. The vice chair of that party with the buses or logo, Nettie Karaman, admits his party is small, but he tells me it's growing first and speaks for many, many Turks.
It's a terrible strategy, what the Syrians witnessed. Turkey did a great job back in the day, allowing these migrants, these refugees to seek refuge in our country under temporary protection status. But now there's no war anymore. And it seems that Assad is not going anywhere. And Assad has issued several decrees, pardoning the people that fled the country. And I know where you're going to come there. Can they trust Assad? Well, that's not a problem. I mean, the war is over, and they have to go back.
Customers of the people's mugglers have a choice about how to reach Europe, land or sea. Those who don't walk over the mountains to Bulgaria go instead by boat to Greece. In a Syrian restaurant over a dinner of Maklaba,
Ali, who was a footballer in Damascus before the war forced him to leave, showed me the videos on his phone to get promise a route to a better life. TikTok, Facebook, Instagram. You have messages about how to get out. So that's your in Greece, is it? Yeah.
And it has a smart logo. There's a picture of a boat, there's a picture of a plane and then there's a map showing some people who've obviously arrived in Greece. This logo and the picture is to confirm to the audience that we already arrived I'm sharing my location.
that he is celebrating, that he is left Turkey and he's got to Europe. It's tough here in Turkey, especially if you don't have a degree.
Also, you have risks of being deported, because now I have a different idea, which I cannot stay in Istanbul. It's different programs, so I cannot work legally here. You have many risks of being stopped by the police here. So, are you now planning to leave Turkey? Of course, I'm thinking about leaving, not just me, all my friends. This is what we are talking all about right now.
Sally, if you can go anywhere, where would you like to go? Holland? Germany? For your turn? Britain. You might want to come to Britain. Yeah.
What Ali says, what this country shows, is there are always new reasons people feel they want, they need to head to Europe, to head to Britain. Governments can make big promises to stop the boats or smash the gangs. What they can't do is stop the demand from people who believe it's only by moving they can get a better life.
That was Nick's report from Istanbul. As I said, we're going to be talking more about this on the podcast later in the week. In fact, straight after Wednesday's Today programs at 9am UK time, Nick is going to be joining me for a special live recording of the Today podcast on BBC Sounds. We're going to talk more about what he's learned from his reporting and also answer some of your questions about what it's like to take today on the road with the team of brilliant young producers.
that Nick is with. I should say we ran this little experiment a few weeks ago and it went rather well, which is why we're doing it again. So the best way to get in touch with us is via WhatsApp, send us a message to plus 44-330-123-4346. That's plus 44-330-123-4346. Or you can email us on today at bbc.co.uk.
And you'll be able to hear that at 9am on Wednesday on the live news stream on BBC Sounds, where you can also hear the Today program every morning. To find the stream, scroll along the live dial at the top of the BBC Sounds homepage. We should chat to you on Wednesday. See you then. Look forward to it. Bye.
In 1984, an IRA bomb planted under a bath in Brighton's Grand Hotel, came close to killing Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet.
It was the biggest direct assault on a British government since the gunpowder plot. From BBC Radio 4, I'm Glam Patterson. And in the Brighton bomb, I tell the story of the deadly attack, unraveling the threads that brought all involved often by heartbreaking chance to that place and time, 2.54 AM on the morning of the 12th of October.
And I reveal how the police only just averted a follow-up bombing campaign aimed at England's beaches. To hear the Brighton bomb and many other great history documentaries search for the History Podcast on BBC Science.
