Selects: How the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked
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November 23, 2024
TLDR: The Stanford Prison Experiment, conducted by a professor, lacked proper preparation and control, resulting in an unpredicted escalation of participant behavior.
The Stanford Prison Experiment has been a cornerstone of psychological studies for decades, yet the podcast Selects: How the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked challenges this long-held perception. Hosted by Josh and Chuck, this episode delves into the critical analysis of the experiment's validity, methodology, and the ethical implications surrounding it. Here’s a concise summary of the pivotal points discussed in the episode.
Understanding the Stanford Prison Experiment
Overview
- Conducted in August 1971 at Stanford University, it involved 24 college students divided into two groups: guards and prisoners.
- Funded by the U.S. Office of Naval Research, participants were paid $15 per day (equivalent to about $93 today).
- Original plan intended for the experiment to last two weeks.
Initial Setup
- Participants were selected from a pool of applicants, leading to a group that consisted mostly of middle-class white males.
- They were assigned roles as guards and prisoners, with the guards given uniforms and authority, while prisoners were stripped of their identities, referred to only by number, and placed under severe restrictions.
Key Findings Explored
Role Assumption and Behavior
- Contrary to the belief that the experiment demonstrated inherent cruelty in human nature, hosts argue it revealed flaws in the experimental setup.
- Roles were exaggerated: Guards quickly adapted to their roles, some displaying sadistic behaviors while others remained relatively mild.
- The prisoners, initially rebellious, faced escalating punitive actions which led to compliance and psychological breakdowns.
Ethical Concerns
- Within just six days, after psychological impacts became evident, the experiment was halted, although it was designed for two weeks.
- Notably, key figures in the research (including Zimbardo, who acted as the prison superintendent) were deeply involved in the study, impacting its outcomes.
- This involvement raises questions about the objectivity of the findings and sparking critiques regarding ethical practices in psychological experiments.
Misinterpretations and Critiques
Debunking Myths
- One significant takeaway from the podcast is the deconstruction of the experiment’s reputation:
- No true experimental controls were instituted, making it largely anecdotal rather than scientific in methodology.
- Zimbardo’s direct involvement blurred lines between researcher and participant.
- Laboratory conditions were too artificial to draw meaningful conclusions about real-world behavior.
Historical Context
- The experiment was conducted in a post-Vietnam era where society grappled with questions of authority and moral responsibility.
- Critics highlighted that the implications drawn from the experiment inadvertently supported punitive measures in prison systems, thus leading to harsher treatments.
Legacy and Impact
Current Understanding
- Modern psychological interpretations suggest that people can act cruelly under authoritative influence, rather than suggesting that all individuals have an inherent capacity for evil.
- There’s an ongoing debate regarding the representation of the experiment in educational settings, with many perceiving Zimbardo’s interpretations now as outdated and poorly reflective of human psychology.
Lessons Learned
- Zimbardo’s experiment is often referred to as an example of how not to conduct psychological research, emphasizing the importance of ethics and methodological rigor.
- The discussion serves as a call for continued scrutiny in psychology experiments, to ensure humane treatment of participants and accurate interpretation of human behavior.
Conclusion
The podcast How the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked not only critiques the celebrated study but also encourages listeners to rethink their assumptions about human nature and the context of authority. It reveals how deeply flawed the original study was, compelling ongoing dialogues about ethics, authority, and psychological research methodology. Whether the findings reflect inherent cruelty or situational pressures remains a debated topic, but this episode encourages a broader perspective on how we understand psychological experiments and their implications on society.
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Hi everybody, Chuck here. Hope you're having a great day. Hope you're having a great weekend. I'm thinking about you. Each one of you individually. I'm thinking about you. I know where you live. I'm standing right behind you. Actually, I'm just kidding. But I hope you're doing well. This one goes back to July 5th, 2018. It's a good one. I think I picked this one because I had just recently seen the movie on the
Stanford Prison Experiment. The movie is okay. It's not great. It's not bad. It's fine. The podcast episode was pretty good from what I remember, though. But you should do both. If you've seen the movie, listen to the show, if you listen to the show, then give the movie a shot. It's got Billy Crudup. He's always awesome. And it's called How the Stanford Prison Experiment Worked, where a friend becomes foe, foe becomes friend. What'll happen in the end? Listen in to find out.
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry's over there. So why don't you pull up a chair, kick back and tell us about your problems because this is psychology stuff. We should just call this episode the Stanford Prison
experiment, aka perhaps the hackiest experiment of all time, and it's really not an experiment anyway. No, but it's the most famous psychology experiment ever.
Yeah, I got kind of ticked off while I was researching this. Yeah, you should, man. Because I used to think it was cool. Like, oh, man, what a cool experiment. Yeah, everybody's evil at its core. Yeah, then I researched it and I was like, this is a bunch of BS. All of it. This is one of the worst executed experiments I've ever heard of. That is so funny because while I was researching this, I was like, I'm going to have to keep it together. Maybe at the end, I can really go off from now. Let's go off at the beginning. That's great, man.
yeah what's that the movie today to the two thousand fifty one yeah how was it how is billy credit because i loved him in uh... almost famous uh... well i'm a fan he's he was good uh... but like i don't know the movie it was a pretty sensationalized as far as the violence like
They showed a lot of straight up physical violence in the movie, which supposedly didn't occur. Like beating them with Billy clubs and hog tying them in real violence. Hollywood. Actually, these days I should say Atlanta. Yeah. Yollywood is what they call it. Oh, there you go. Perfect. That sounds like a Norman Reedus creation. It might have been. Shout out to Norman Reedus.
what's a saying oh uh... it uh... i don't feel like it came down hard enough on on this yahoo what was the guy's name zimbardo yeah zimbardo for just crafting a really poor doing a very poor job at crafting its not supposedly scientific experiment though he was like the driving force behind that movie getting made apparently he'd been trying to get a movie made in america
seems to be a pretty famous self-promoter decades yes yeah it's not a good quality in a social psychologist now so we're going to see i guess we let the cat of the bag but will we shall see that um...
The Stanford Prison Experiment, one of the most famous experiments in the annals of psychology, it's not an experiment at all. Its findings are wide open to interpretation, and it was conducted by a showman, basically.
yeah i mean you know it's a red flag when you don't publish your findings in a medical journal you published them in new york was a new york magazine new york times magazine hodgman's rag well a great rag but
That's not the place to go publish scientific findings. No, peer-reviewed journals are. Yeah. And they circumvented that. Yeah, for very good reasons. All right, so let's talk about the outline. So let's go back to the beginning, right? Yeah, back to the year for my birth, 1971. Wow.
and Stanford at Stanford University, which is what? Palo Alto? Yeah. Go fighting Sequoias. What is there? They have like a big old Sequoia on their logo. I think it's like a, and then they have a Sequoia with its fists up. Or is that leprechaun? Oh, that's Notre Dame, I'm thinking. I do feel like it has something to do with trees. Chuck's looking it up, everybody. So let me stall. It is a tree, the Stanford tree.
I don't know what the mascot is, but there's definitely a tree associated with it. No, I looked it up. The Stanford tree. Oh, okay. Cool. And the first question is, why is it a tree? Well, what's the answer? Well, I mean, I'm sure it's just because of where it is in California, but that doesn't answer the real question, which is, why would you have a tree?
right Phillips and Bartos and they're like quit stall and get to the get to the heckling he's still around yeah he is so um all right we're at Stanford it's 1971 yeah we're actually in the basement of one of the buildings at Stanford University I think like Campbell Hall or something like that and I think August of 1971 there were 24 young men almost all of them I think one of them was Asian American
And they are doing something pretty bizarre in this basement in August of 1971. They've been divided into two groups, guards and prisoners. Supposedly average kids, right? And they are acting out this basically role-playing game
of guards versus prisoners for fifteen bucks a day in a simulated prison in the basement of this this hall at same for university yeah which would be about ninety three dollars today funded by the u.s. office of naval research is that right so it'd be ninety three bucks a day and it was originally gonna be two weeks so i'm sure some of these guys were like yeah yeah i mean i kind of forgot what it was like to be a college student that that'd be uh
You know what, between 12 and 1,400 bucks starting off your summer? It'd be about $1,302 if my quick math is correct. Good scratch. Yeah. For a 21-year-old. Yeah, two weeks on summer break.
That's right. So you were divided into two lots, like you said. They asked people, supposedly, what you wanted to be, unless this was purely a movie creation. And they did try and look up and try and find out the differences. But they supposedly asked them, and most everyone said, or in fact, everyone said prisoner in one of the reactions from who ended up being the bad guard. The guy said, they asked him why, and he was like, because nobody likes guards.
It's like, why would anyone want to be a guard? Because they thought, we'll just be prisoners, because they just will lay around and smoke cigarettes. So we'll kind of unpack what that suggests later on. Sure. OK, so you've got these guys, and they're down here for this experiment. And so coming at it from the way this is the popular interpretation of what happened at the Stanford Prison Experiment, OK? Yes. You've got 12 guards and 12 prisoners.
the prisoners had been arrested by the way by the real Palo Alto police yeah they weren't told when but like the real cops came by arrested each one of them for you know the variety of crimes book them at the Palo Alto police station and then transported them to the jail the fake jail in uh... stanford yeah they call it the stanford county jail and they did a legit job they put up signs they had these
rooms decked out like jail cells they had a hole uh... they did a really believable job of making the seem like uh... a prison environment at least right so uh... you've got these these prisoners who've been delivered you've got these guards who are waiting their forum
And as far as Embardo has ever said, these guards were told, you have to protect the prison and everything else is up to you. The only rule is there's no physical punishment. We're just here to observe. Yeah, like here's your uniforms. Here's your sunglasses.
Yeah, and then the prisoners were booked in with wearing smocks. Yeah. No shoes, no underwear. Yeah, naked under the smocks. Chained at the ankles, and then they wore like those stocking cap dew rags. They had a panty on their head. To simulate, to simulate they're having their head shaved. Right. And, you know, this is the early 70s, so most of them had these big
afros and long hair and stuff under these uh... panties so uh... this is like at first everything's pretty normal the guards don't quite know what to do they're a little timid the prisoners apparently relish this immediately and started but like finding where the guards boundaries were and they started to band together and there was actually i think on day
Two the the the turn over from day one to two. There was a prisoner riot Yeah, I mean they like you said they were sort of laughing at first and I think we didn't mention two and this is will end up being very very problematic and the first sign that he didn't do a good job Zimbardo actually acted as the superintendent of the prison involved himself in his own experiment and
and had one of, he had some graduate assistants that were assisting in the program. They acted as a parole board and one of them was the Warden. That was, yeah, a undergrad actually. Oh, were they undergrad assistants? Well, the Warden, Jaffe, his last name was Jaffe, he was an undergrad at the time and actually he had come up with the experiment on his own. Oh, he was the guy, huh? And then Zimbardo was like, this is a really good idea, let's do this for real. Imagine the press.
So yeah, like you said, it escalated pretty quickly after kind of laughing at first. These guards got into their roles to say the least and really kind of started being jerks in quick order. And after the prisoners were like, hey, this is kind of funny. Like you're being, you're not being very cool. And they were, you know, kind of smacked down and, and, you know, made to do things like pushups and jumping jacks and they would withhold food and
Eventually they would like take their beds away from them and stuff like it just got worse and worse and there was I think like you said on day two a an uprising they got together through the cots off their beds and Through the bed frames against the door and wouldn't let them in
So there was a prisoner riot. That's pretty significant, right? And what's equally significant is that the guards, by the second day, started to show signs of real cruelty toward the prisoners. They started treating them very poorly. They started engaging in basically acts of torture, like waking them up randomly in the middle of the night, making them get up.
Like you said push-ups, which is interpreted as physical punishment. Because again, you couldn't hit them with the rubber hose. You couldn't hit them with the baton. You couldn't punch them. But if you make somebody do a bunch of push-ups, that's physical punishment too. Yeah. And it was within the bounds apparently. Yeah, they were referred to only by their prison numbers. They would never say their names.
They were made to memorize everyone else's prison number and like they would line them up and tell them to repeat their numbers for like an hour if they didn't do it fast enough and then in reverse order.
They would get punishment. They would do the kind of the classic moves of holding one responsible for the punishment of others. Yeah, that's a big one. Like if you did make your bed good enough and no one could go to sleep, stuff like that. The guards also innovated carrots here or there too. They actually made one cell, like a good cell. Like they put a bed in it with like bedding. If you were in that cell you were eligible for like good meals.
It's better than what the other prisoners had, and there were room for three inmates in there at a time. And so it instilled this sense of competition and skull-dugry, I guess, backstabbery among the prisoners to curry favor with the guards, like by informing on the other ones so that you could get a chance to be in like the nice cell.
yeah and i think even before that like when they went to do the when they went to stage the uprising i don't think there were three rooms of three and i think six of them to the rooms participated and one of the rooms did not and uh...
Because not all the guys, not all the prisoners rebelled as much. Some of them just kind of went along with it. Interestingly, some of the guards did not descend into cruelty. Right. They actually, some of them did favors, went out of their way to be nice to the prisoners. And the grabster who wrote this article points out very significantly, they didn't stand up to the cruel guards or officially object to their behavior. Right. They went along with it.
but then they thought they had to in their own right in their own way they they did what they could do retain their humanity so there's two huge points and one of them there's one among the guards and one among the prisoners and the one among the prisoners comes thirty six hours after the beginning of the uh... of the experiment and this prisoner his name it would later be revealed was douglas corpy
He had an emotional breakdown a nervous breakdown 36 hours after this this this experiment starts one of the prisoners it becomes so emotionally involved in this simulated prison at the Cruelty the simulated supposedly cruelty of the guards that he had a nervous breakdown well
and had to be, had to be removed from the experiment. And this is like, this is Embardo's, this is the official line for the Stanford prison experiment. Oh, so we're still playing along? Right. And has been for decades. Yeah, he also said that one of them broke out in a psychosomatic rash that was all manner of, of
various levels of psychological breakdowns happening. On the other side, the big star among the guards was a guy named John Wayne, who you referenced earlier. Yeah, his name was Dave Eshelman, and he was the one who, he was the ringleader. He's the one that came out as the most brutal guard of them all, and all the other guards kind of fell in line behind him and took their cues from him.
So this whole thing's going on, this is crazy town, this place in six days, six days this thing descends into chaos. It's supposed to be two weeks. Yes, there were rumors that there was going to be a breakout and so they moved the experiment. There were that guy Douglas Korpie, who had a nervous breakdown, ended up getting put into the hole.
This broom closet for I think overnight and was finally released because the researchers that actually stepped in and said you should probably light them out. It was just utter chaos and then eventually Philip Zimbardo's girlfriend at the time, a woman named Christine Maslock. Yeah his wife to be.
Oh, she married him, huh? Yeah, so married. So she came and just dropped in to see how things were going and was so outraged at what she saw that she was like, you've so far beyond the line. You have to stop this now. Like, this is descended into chaos. You can't do this. These people are treating these prisoners horribly. Like, how are you letting this go on?
And he went, okay, fine. And so the next day he canceled the experiment. Again, after six days and it was scheduled to go on for two weeks. And so he comes out, tells the world in this New York Times magazine, guys, if I took you, if I took you Josh and I took you Chuck and put you as garden prisoner in even a simulated prison,
and put a smock on Josh and took his underwear off and put a stocking on his head and gave Chuck a baton and some glasses. Chuck would beat Josh up. And Josh would probably have his spirit broken and have a nervous breakdown. It's in everybody. Evil is in everybody. Crumbling at the first sign of adversity is in everybody. We're all just pathetic weaklings. Stanford Prison Experiment. And he ran off and said, I'm famous.
All right, that's a great setup. So we'll take a break here and come back and talk a little bit about the, more about the experiment and the realities of it right after this.
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All right, so you've got John Wayne in there. I don't think we mentioned that he took on the persona of the prison boss in Cool Hand Luke. He did a fake Southern accent and everything. And dove right into this role. If you talk to Dave Eshelman today, he will say he's very much on record as saying,
I'm not some jerk, and I didn't get off on being sadistic. He said, I wanted to do what they paid me $15 a day to do, which was to be a prison guard and to treat these guys poorly. And so he said, I did some drama in high school, and I literally acted this part as well as I could. I felt was expected and wanted for me.
right and i did put on this fake southern accent and if you like ask people friends and family today they would laugh at this cuz i'm really not this guy at all right because he really comes off as as a bit of a villain in this movie for sure well he perpetrated real cruelty on other people and we'll get to that later he said he feels bad about it too any should yeah um... because the other people actually did suffer
under this guy's leadership as the the ring leader of the main guard right like they were pink on wednesday it was terrible everywhere right so uh... he really should feel bad and apparently he does i saw that all over the place to the field bad for it but the point is is that he has said like this didn't happen organically
I felt encouraged to play this role. That's a big deal because the findings of the Stanford Prison Experiment say, if you take some people and say, you're a guard, you're a prisoner and you will turn evil. They will turn evil within a day. A day, they said, about this guy. And this guy's like, no, I was just, like you said, doing my job, but they were paying me 15 bucks a day for. Let's put that one to the side. Put a pin in that.
Let's go visit with Douglas Corpey, who was the prisoner who, in 36 short hours of this simulated prison experiment, lost his marbles and had a nervous breakdown and had to go home, right? One of the other two pillars of the findings that people are either evil or easily crumble in the face of adversity from the Stanford Prison Experiment. And again, this is how this thing's been taught for like 50 years, okay?
Yeah, so Korpie comes out and says, I was faking that. And I put on a big act so I could get out of there because it sucked. And I didn't want to be there anymore. So I fake like I was, and he like, one of his quotes was, I don't have it here to be, basically said like, any trained clinician would have been able to see right through this. Like when I hear the tapes years later,
It's like I'm not an actor. I wasn't like apparently the John Wayne guy at least had been in like high school plays. And college too I think. Yeah and he was like I was not an actor and it was so clear to me looking back at these tapes that I was faking it. Faking a nervous breakdown. Yeah faking a nervous breakdown to get out of there.
Right. So the reason why he said later that he did fake this nervous breakdown is because he took the job because he thought he'd just be laying around like he said smoking cigarettes being a prisoner. Yeah. And he would get to study for the GRE. He was about to enter grad school. I didn't see that.
well they said now you can't have your books now they didn't have anything and this guy was like whoa whoa whoa wait a minute this is day one he's like whoa whoa whoa like i need those books i'm taking the g-r-e basically leaving here after two weeks and going to take the test like i've got to spend this two weeks studying they're like you can have your books so he quickly saw that the only way out was to fake this nervous breakdown and billie crude up and said why is everyone saying whoa whoa whoa only i can say whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa
Uh, yeah, so we've kind of poo-pooed the two major findings from the study already. So that's a huge deal, right? Because, again, the idea is that if you put people, any random people, remember, these are just average, like, middle-class white kids. Which is another problem.
right if you put if you put any well you know nineteen seventy one that means everybody right that's the whole world right if you put anybody in the world in the situation they're going to either turn evil or lose their marbles so uh... those are the two findings that's what everybody took it as a first it later came out now this guy was acting this guy was faking so what else do we have then well we have this idea
Zimbardo insinuated himself as part of the experiment. And that actually created the findings from the Stanford Prison Experiment. So should we put a pin in that? You want to talk about that now? No, no, I want to go. I want to go where you want to go. All right. Let's put a pin in that then and talk a little bit more about what went on that week. They had everything from visitation.
like you could write a letter to your family or girlfriend or whoever you want to come visit you to ask for visitation rights and the family came in and they did they came in and visited for an hour and
There were, in some cases, parents were like, I don't know about this. This is like, this seems like a really weird thing. And Zumbardo would be like, oh, no, it's totally fine. Like, you know, they're the psychologist. Yeah, like they want to be here, like ask them. And the kids, you know, they did say that they wanted to stay. Okay. Which is, which is important.
okay so what all what else is important is like no one in the visiting our i don't think we're like get me out of here okay there are like no this is all part of the part of the act okay essentially all right um... they had parole uh... hearings inside the course of a week somehow they said that if they uh... they could be released if they would forfeit the money uh... and this is after i don't know how many of the six days but um... they could
Not get paid and be paroled if they went in front of the parole board. They went in front of the parole board. Some of them did. And most of the prisoners said that they would give up their money, in fact. And the parole members, like I said, they were the graduate assistants. They even had one former prisoner, this guy that was a 15-year inmate, 15 or 17-year inmate on the board that I guess Zimbardo, I want to call him Zamboni.
So he actually was a friend of Jaffe's, the guy who originally actually conceived of this agreement as an undergrad, so he brought him in on it. Right, so he was on the parole board, and he was kind of one of the ones, at least in the film version, that was kind of saying like, no, this is like how it is, like you should keep it going. Right. But I don't know how much of that was dramatized.
I don't either. That's one of the problems with this is so much of the documentation has been not released over the years and when it does get released, it contradicts the official line. It's very tough to separate truths from fiction, especially when you introduce a Hollywood movie into the whole thing just to drive those nails in the coffin too of a reality, in fact.
there's been a lot of uh... in the years since a lot of complaints that a lot of these you know kids were screaming i want to go home i want to go home and for his part zimbardo said in the contract it says i want to exit the experiment as the official line to say and they could have gone home
and he was like, but you hear, no one ever said I want the experiment. They would say, I want my mommy, or I'm going crazy, or my god, please stop this, please stop this. But they never said those exact words. The safe phrase. The safe phrase, but it turns out that's bunk too, right?
Yeah, it turns out that if you look at the contract that they had that he's referencing that say the rules and everything in the agreement, there's no safe word to be mentioned. It certainly doesn't say if you say I want to quit the experiment, you get released from the experiment. So he's just flat out lying about that then? That's from what I understand, yes. And what article was this that you sent?
There's a really good takedown in Medium called the Lifespan of a Lie. Yeah, it's a good one. And it's based on, that title's based on a, I think a documentary by a documentary or a book by a French filmmaker, which, who titled his version The Birth of a Lie.
And it's basically about how the Stanford Prison Experiment was just basically, it was bonk from the get-go, which we'll kind of pick that apart in a little bit, and that it's just fascinatingly has been perpetuated over again, basically 50 years. It just entered the cultural zeitgeist and just stayed, like an infection.
All right, some other things that happened to make it realistic. They brought in a lawyer when parents asked for one and played along like it was real They brought in a chaplain who came in to speak to prisoners And he played along with it too. Yeah They basically
Did everything that you would think would happen in a real prison on a slightly scaled down level? Right. But the upshot of all of this is Zimbardo saying, like, do you see what's going on here, everybody? Yeah. Like, I just put some guys in, like nine guys in at a time or 12 guys as guards, 12 guys as prisoners.
and their parents came for visiting hours. A lawyer came. That's how real the simulated prison became in people's minds. Just imagine what a real prison's like, right? And he was saying they could have left at any time if they just said the safe word and no one ever said the safe word. There is some evidence that these people were basically kept there against their will.
uh... especially after douglas corpy basically have faked his emotional breakdown and then was thrown into uh... broom closet in in retaliation for it yeah uh... that that he should have very very clearly should have been left or allowed to leave and to even be led to think that you couldn't leave which is apparently the idea that spread throughout the prisoners
That would be like keeping someone against their will. Yeah, and he did leave, but was supposed to agree to come back, supposedly, to like play a different role as a prisoner who like maybe escaped and came back, I think. Okay. But didn't come back. Right. And I think five people were released early before the whole experiment was called off. All prisoners, no guards left the experiment, which is telling. Yeah. Well, and they were working in shifts, though, which is important.
okay that is a big one too uh... but but if you consider that no one asked to be a guard they all asked to be prisoners but then none of the guards left the experiment right that's to me that's interesting on its face right or something to that but uh... there the the whole thing
just kind of falling apart after Zimbardo's girlfriend at the time came. The idea that up to this point, these people had engaged in this fantasy.
and thought that they couldn't leave when they really could, that's controversial in and of itself. Sure. Because again, there's evidence that they were led to believe they couldn't leave. And that's different. That changes things entirely. Yeah. So you want to take another break and then pick this apart some more? Yeah, let's do it. Kind of fun.
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All right, the final take down. I'm waiting for Phillips and Bartle to release a book about like our Jackhammer episode. That's fine. I would read it. All right, so where are we here? Basically, we're at the point where he has ended the experiment and now
We're dealing with the fallout since 1971 and how this should be viewed. One of the big things that came out of that French book, The Birth of a Lie, is the filmmaker unearthed a recording.
That was, I don't know where he found it, but he found it and released the transcript of it that clearly has, if not Zimbardo, at least Jaffi, definitely Jaffi, coaching the guards. Yeah, to be more brutal.
Right. Be a tough guard. Just think of like how the pigs do it and do it like that. I think is what the quote was, right? Yeah, when the whole idea of this thing is to try and prove that without any influence, this is what happens. Right. So there's a couple of things that happen. Methodologically, there's a lot of things that happen the moment they started coaching those guards. Number one, they took any organicness out of the behavior.
They were then doing what they thought they were expected to do, like John Wayne. Yeah, for sure. Who just went over the top is what it was. And then number two, they made them co-experimenters. Like the whole thing was supposed to be guards and prisoners. And we're going to watch. As test subjects or participants. And when you coach the guards, they're co-experimenters now.
now the experiments entirely on the on the prisoners which you can say okay well then those findings still work well that gets thrown out when you base the whole thing on a guy who is faking right right but but you you make the guards co-experimenters and you just completely take out any objectivity from this experiment that's problem one with the methodology well and the fact we already mentioned that one of one of the researchers was a warden
And, uh, keep on calling Zambrano. That's fine. Go ahead. Zimbardo. Zamboni himself was the superintendent. Like the minute he decided to do that, like, I looked up, I think he was like in his late thirties when he did this. How did he not, like, was he that bad at doing his job? How did he not know, like, wait a minute, this will take
experiment. Do you want to talk about why the people think that he was so yeah okay so he was a he wasn't I think still is a social activist for sure and he had decided and I can't really disagree with them that prisons were brutal places where brutality lived
and that they were inherently brutal. And so if you take somebody and put them into this place, you're doing a real disservice to humanity by throwing somebody in a brutal place, that you know is brutal. So his aim was to get reformed to happen? Yes.
from the outset well i mean i can't fault that but you can't call it a scientific experiment either now and it actually supposedly backfired as well because one interpretation of his findings is that it's all or nothing with prisons prisons are inherently brutal
or you can't have them. So either you have prisons and you have brutal prisons or you have no prisons. And so faced with that choice and with rising crime rates in the 70s, a lot of people doubled down on getting tough and made prisons even worse and built more prisons and said, T.S., we're not even going to try to like reform you anymore. We're just going to send you to these brutal places that are inherently brutal and there's nothing we can do about it.
So it would have backfired in that sense. But in the idea that he was doing something with the best interests of his fellow people at heart, again, like you said, it's tough to fault him for that. He just really, really gave social psychology a black eye.
yes so one of the other things he did wrong uh... in this one i just can't figure out either uh... is he didn't have a control group and one of his uh... he this guy wasn't in the experiment but one of his colleagues uh... came by one day and was like
you know, what's your control? What's your independent variable? Yeah, and he was like, what? Yeah, he's like, I don't have one. So if you run an experiment of any sort, Gramster uses a great analogy where if you're trying to figure out what the effects of radiation are on tomatoes, you pick a bunch of tomatoes, you weigh them, you check them for color, you make sure that they're identical,
to another set of tomatoes. So you have two sets of basically identical tomatoes. One you irradiate, one you do not, and after a set amount of time, you go back and see what the differences are. And then you can say, probably, that when you irradiate tomatoes, these are the effects. And the effects are the differences between the two. Same thing with the prison experiment. What would you have here? Two different cell blocks.
And one that literally isn't coached and completely left alone. That's what I would have done for sure. And then one where you're saying, hey, be brutal and we'll see if everyone falls into these roles. Exactly. That would have been great. And actually some researchers in 2001, they did exactly that. They basically ran the experiment with just that control group you suggested. It was called the BBC Prison Study. Yeah, Haslam and Riker.
yeah and basically they did the same thing they they they did not do any coaching they didn't do any intervention they did the the thing exactly like you're supposed to or like zimbardo should have from the outside and uh... they found that that again they made the control group to the original stand for prison experiment they found that the exact opposite happen that the prisoners stayed banded together the guards were totally in disarray uh... and disorganized the brutality never emerged
uh... and there wasn't any violence from understand and this is where it gets really scummy if you ask me uh... zimbardo found out about this and supposedly haslam and riker said they discovered he was privately writing editors uh... to keep them from getting published
and claiming that they were fraudulent yeah in the journal that they they released their findings and he wrote in uh... an appendage to their their article and said that these are the just don't even listen to these guys i'm phillips and bardo man so yeah i thought that was pretty scummy to if he did that
So you've got methodologically, there's even more problems too. In the original newspaper advertisement, Chuck, he said... Prison experiment. Prison experiment, everybody sign up. Yeah, that was a problem in and of itself. They shouldn't have known what they were doing.
No, exactly, until they showed up, right? So you're going to get a big wide swath of people, and then once they find out what the experiment is, maybe they'll say no thanks or whatever. But this was like attracting a 2007 follow-up study found. Narcissistic, hostile, overly aggressive, authoritarian types like flies to honey.
Yeah, or the opposite. Well, that seems to be the case in this case. Yeah, which was, in fact, one of them was a liberal activist who kind of purposely went in there because he thought maybe these findings could be used one day for prison reform. Well, I think also most of the what I got from Jaffe coaching the people to say, like, think about what the pigs would do and then do that because we really got to show them how brutal prisons are. I think everybody who showed up basically was
against prisons. But whether you're against prisons or forum, you were automatically tainted before you even showed up for the interview. Because they wrote prison experiment in the ad. So from the outset, there was bias. There was no control group. It attracted a bias cross-section of people. Zimbardo participated. He was a participant. And that actually chucked lead to the second set of findings.
that Zimbardo had influenced this and become a participant himself. And here's the current interpretation of all of it, okay? This seems to be the current du jour interpretation of the Stanford Prison Experiment.
not that people are inherently cruel, and inherently will just crumble in the face of authority, although that might still stand, but that people are capable of cruelty if they're recruited by an authority figure. The second set, and there's actually been three sets of interpretations. The second set was that Zimbardo inserted himself, and that it actually demonstrated what's called situationist theory.
Yeah, and that's basically that external circumstances are the drivers of human behavior.
Right, so the point was not that people are inherently cruel on an individual level. But the situation that they're put in, they will quickly find those roles. If there's a power structure above them, that has normalized this and is expecting them to fulfill those roles. And this really tied in with, you know, this is 1971, people were still really trying to figure out what the heck had just happened with the Nazis. It was only like 25, 26 years before.
So, this idea that this banality of evil, this made perfect sense in that respect, right? There is a bureaucracy that had normalized evil, and you were just following orders. That was the second interpretation of the Stanford Prison Experiment. Yeah, and not just the Nazis, but the Vietnam War, which was
I mean, this was 1971. And like, the Miley massacre, and I was just following orders. This has his fingers in a lot of relevant politics of the day.
right so uh... apparently it also tied in really well the adica and with zimbardo must have just couldn't believe is his good fortune that there was a business prison riot in american history yeah happen like a couple weeks after he made the news in the new york times magazine with this journal or this article that he wrote right yeah but that actually played into it too because apparently following orders a lot of guards just fired blindly into the tear gas smoke of this prison riot and killed
tons of unarmed prisoners and hostages. So Zimbar was like, OK, that's fine. However we're going to interpret this, I'm cool with that. The third one, I'm not quite sure that he would be cool with the current one, which is bad science.
uh... i think so what i saw is that a lot of social psychologists said and we've known this is bad science all along with the findings were really interesting and worthwhile so we didn't throw the baby out with the bath water the third one is that that zimbardo inserted himself and what this what this this study really showed was that people will engage in acts of cruelty
if there is a figure of authority recruiting them to what they think is a righteous cause and in this case it was in bardo making the guards co-experimenters by coaching them to be cruel right and in in the name of prison reform ultimately when they showed the world what happens when you put normal people in a prison situation yeah which is what uh... the john wane guy very much has said all his life since then is
that this is what they I thought they wanted was for me to be a bad guard. Right. So we could prove ultimately that prisons need reform. And that is why he's still complicit because he's still engaged in these acts of genuine cruelty against the prisoners in the study. And that's why he should still feel bad and still does feel bad. But he did it because he was recruited in the name of this righteous cause by somebody who was in authority.
So is this being taught this way in classes now? I don't, I think that they especially once it came out that Zimbardo and at the very least his warden, a co-experimenter was coaching them to do this and that the organic cruelty is just totally out the window. I think they don't know what to do with it right now. They're trying to figure it out like how to get these findings across or what to make of them.
Because one of these quotes from the article you sent, the guy said, I don't think it's scientific fraud in the typical sense. It was never considered to be scientific. It's typically represented in classrooms as a demonstration, not an experiment, and as a notorious case of ethical malfeasance. So that's almost a fourth takeaway, is that it's an example of how to not do a study correctly, which is interesting.
Oh yeah, I mean methodologically inserting yourself, like lying about the findings later on or misinterpreting the results or using spin. Yeah, there's a lot here. But it was approved by the Stanford Human Rights Subjects Review Committee at the time. Those were Zimbardo's experiments we presented this to. And they're, he still says that it was ethical. Well, it was at the time. Under the guidelines it was ethical. But then after they changed the guidelines.
Yeah, you couldn't do this today. No. Or at least not with like he did it. So I did. You remember the very brief psychology is not serious. I watched that. I did one on the Stanford Prison Experiment. Yeah, I watched that today. Did you? What did you think? It was good. Thanks, man. Cute little background. Yeah, I thought so too. And let's see. You got anything else?
No, I mean, boy, I thought we were pretty scathing, but... We were. This is like vaping level scathing. This is way worse than vaping. I'm sure the vapors are like, oh, they were really hard on that guy. Yeah, the movie, you know, the documentary is probably a little more accurate, but the movie wasn't bad. Yeah. I mean, it's not great. Yeah. But it was okay. It felt like a movie the week. Gotcha. It's an airplane movie. Yeah, watch it on your next flight. That's my recommendation. Thanks, buddy.
Well, if you want to know more about the Stanford Prison Experiment, type those words in the search bar at howstuffworks.com and it'll bring up this grab store article. It's nice that grab store is time for listening mail.
I'm going to call this beautiful landscaping. Hey guys, I spent the last two years fixing up the yard in our house in Point Pleasant, Pennsylvania. Oh, that sounds like a pleasant place. Yeah, it is. My husband actually introduced me in your show a few years back. And thank God he did because I've literally listened to you for hours and hours.
while working in the yard. It was a huge undertaking. I have a more flexible work schedule than he does, so I volunteered to absorb most of the responsibility, although he did a lot of heavy lifting too. I enjoyed the show so much, I stopped allowing myself to listen to it any other time. You were only allowed during yard work. This made me much more ready to get outside and get into it. You guys were with me while I carried literally tons of redstone, up hill and buckets, hauling rocks for a firing landing, planted,
peccesandra, ferns, and hostas, and the rocky soil I've ever had to work with, and just clearing away overgrowth. It sounds like Tonya Harding training for the Olympics in that one montage.
which it turned out included a fair amount of poison ivy. During it all, I learned about tiny adorable little creature called the tardigrade. The business of head transplant, the hookworm, her favorite episode, and some haunting information I can't unhere such as you provided in the bullfighting and drowning episodes. You're always very entertaining, full of information. Even when I think it's boring, you make it fun. There were times you had me LOLing in my backyard alone and covered in dirt and sweat like a crazy person.
Attached are some pictures of the progress all from your climate-controlled studio That is from Sharon Prashinsky and Sharon You did a great job. That is one beautiful yard you got going. Yeah, for sure. It is lovely. It is nice work. We're glad we could be there with you to help you Get up that hill. Yeah, and down the hill and then back up the hill back down the hill. That's right back up again
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Hey guys, I'm Kate Maxx. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together.
Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Bo. Hey, Matt. Can you believe we have a whole bunch of wicked episodes coming up? Oh, I can't wait to share all of these amazing episodes with the readers, Katie's, publicists, and finalists. That's right. We're talking all things behind bringing this iconic musical to the big screen.
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