Support for Endless Thread comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software for technical computing and model-based design. MathWorks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com. WBR Podcasts. Boston. So we've got our toasted bread, right? Yes, we've got our toasted bread.
We're going to butter up all four slices. I think we're buttered. Are you buttered? I'm buttered. I'm buttered, baby. Let's go. Ben and I are in the WBU R Studios with cutting boards, plates. We're chopping. We're playing. And nearly a dozen ingredients in front of us about to do one of Ben's absolute favorite things. We're sandwiching.
This is no ordinary sandwich. It is called the sophisticated club. It's from Good Housekeeping's book of Breads and Sandwiches in 1958. When I first read this, I'm like, what? Three martini lunch. Spawn, this recipe.
That is our guide on this sandwich making adventure, Barry Enderwick. I make sandwiches from old recipe books and plus them up for the modern pallet if they have potential. And this is an adventure because this club sandwich recipe from 1958 is a triple decker, an insane triple decker.
Once sliced toast, we want to put your cheese. Now we're going to put on, I believe, our ham. Next, we put on our slice of pineapple, spread our peanut butter on top of that. Sprinkle the unsweetened coconut on that. Now we add our bacon, slice of tomato, and put on our avocado. Whoa, this is a tall boy.
Long before we were making a giant sandwich with Barry Enderwick from kitchens on opposite sides of the country, I was hearing his voice every night in my home kitchen, where my husband, usually right after dinner, fires up one of his favorite Instagram channels.
Oh, hello. Welcome to Sandwiches in History. Today from the all-new purity cookbook of 1967, we're going to be making the salmon and peanut sandwich. Sandwiches of history. History, history, history. Okay, to drain boneless and skinless salmon, we add grated onion, parsley, chopped green bell pepper, and, of course, chopped peanuts.
Every day, yep, seven days a week at noon Pacific Time, Barry posts a video of himself making a sandwich in his home kitchen in the Bay Area, a different sandwich recipe every day, taken from the pages of an old cookbook.
Today from conservation recipes of 1918, today from the chafing dish of 1912, today from a cook's own cookbook of 1832. Some of these sandwiches of yesteryear are pretty out there. The jellied chicken sandwich. Number one, the yeast sandwich. We're going to be making the sardine loaf sandwich.
Others are surprisingly simple. It's a clean peanut butter sandwich watered down with milk. We're going to be making the cheese sandwich. We're going to be making the lemon sandwich. Barry makes and tries all of them. And does he have a catchphrase? You know he does. OK, let's give the tomato a go. Let's give this sandwich for travelers. OK, let's give this hot honey sandwich. Go, go, go, go, go, go.
The concept behind sandwiches of history is as clean-cut as sliced bread. But the meat of the matter, Barry's execution and his devotion to daily sandwich-making, has gotten him a following.
a big one. Hundreds of thousands of people on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, Reddit, all tuning in to find out which sandwiches of history Barry thinks are the bee's knees.
You look at the ingredients and it's kind of bonkers and then you taste and you're like, how is this working? How is this working? And leading to a sandwich recipe renaissance of sorts that's brought strangers from all around the world together in the name of sandwiches and could only have happened on the internet.
I'm Ben Bond me, broccoli Johnson. I'm Amory sliced avocado siebertson and you're listening to endless bread. Oh, coming to you from the meat, the meaty insides of WBUR, Boston's NPR sandwich meat.
or meet alternative, whichever which is your jam or jelly. Let's give today's sandwiches of history episode a go.
Hello, Barry. Hello. Barry Enderwick showed up to our video called, Just Like He Shows Up on Social Media. Glasses, a button-down shirt, the small amount of non-beard hair he has left, a little fluffed up in the back, an unpretentious, little goofy, good, clean, funkel type.
He really is. He's like perfect because a sandwich is not pretentious. You know what I mean? A sandwich is just like, what's up? I'm here. This is me. This is what I am. And I'm delicious. And I feel like that's Barry's vibe, too. You know, behind him, there's a recognizable backdrop, his actual kitchen. Again, non pretentious. He's got some beige walls, white cupboards, and a painting of a chili pepper hanging just over his left shoulder.
When I first saw you on the screen, I thought that maybe I had left my Instagram page open and that there was just one of your video stills up, but then it was you and I was a starstruck. So I was excited as a fan by marriage will say. But what do you get when you put my good old friend Ben? The person I previously thought was the world's greatest sandwich enthusiast together with Barry Enderwick, the
Internet, sandwich, expert, historian, modern-day godfather, all of the above. I feel like I literally just teared up.
I love it so much. I'm so happy. This is my happy place. You get some budding tears of joy, but also a lot of questions. Do you have a favorite bread? What's your favorite like classic chip and sandwich combo? Why do people put so much frickin' meat in sandwiches? Who is a famous person that you would like to have a sandwich with? And what sandwich would you make for them or with them?
All good questions. That's what I'm saying. And we'll get to some of them. But we're going to start. Was a sandwich involved in you getting kicked out of college? Right here. No. Unfortunately, it was just me not attending classes and getting good grades. So it was funny. I went to San Diego State for two and a half years, and I was undeclared. And I finally decided, you know what? I want to be a graphic designer. And I did that for exactly one semester and was asked to leave.
But Barry did become a graphic designer. He was in fact the first graphic designer hired by a little startup that was just getting going in the early 2000s. You might have heard of it. I worked at Netflix from 2001 to 2012.
And the marketing department helping to scale it from a small startup to an international streaming brand. And eventually Barry and a colleague at Netflix started their own marketing and business consulting company, which he still runs today. And which means he can afford to tune out the usual social media best practices when it comes to the brand he's now best known for sandwiches of history.
I decided I did not want to follow the advice of posting three to four times a day doing dances, jumping on trends. I was just going to make a sandwich, post it at noon Pacific time every day. We'll just see how it goes, and that way I don't burn out on this. But how it's going for Barry is not how it started. It was 2018, and Barry, a known foodie and sandwich lover, was cleaning up some files on his computer when he came across a PDF.
A PDF of a book a friend had sent him, called The Up to Date Sandwich Book. Up to which date? It was published in 1909. You know, the second you publish something that says The Up to Date, it's already out of date, which is hilarious to me. But it has a life life. As soon as you publish something like that, it's a guarantee that it's got a half life.
Exactly. So, but I started looking through it. I'm like, somebody's sandwiches sound okay. Some of them are weird. But Barry's not afraid of a weird sandwich. So he decided he was going to make them for an audience. I just thought it would be fun to do on social media to try these sandwiches from 1909, see what they thought was so wonderful. And, you know, is it something that we could, we would enjoy today. These beautiful oysters.
And in this cookbook, there's absolutely no real measurements. So I'm just sort of winging it. This is the first sandwich berry made from the up-to-date sandwich book of 1909, and the first one he posted to Instagram, the Oyster Sandwich. All the oil, lemon juice, Tabasco-like substance. And we just sort of, boy, that looks unappetizing. And I love oysters, but boy, howdy.
the review. Boy, howdy. Textural nightmare. It was awful. That sounds pretty gross. That sounds pretty gross. Highly unrecommended.
Much like Barry's first actual sandwich of history, his sandwiches of history account wasn't a hit at first either. Back then, Instagram videos had to be square. They couldn't be more than a minute. Or you could put them in stories, but then you'd have to move them to highlights to preserve them. It was a whole thing. Boy howdy. So Barry let his early videos just sort of linger on the vine until TikTok came along and he gave them another shot.
And it took off. It was crazy how much it took off. And then I thought, well, OK, there is it there there. Maybe I'll start making new ones. Welcome to sandwiches of history. Welcome to sandwiches of history. Welcome to sandwiches of history. Today, we're doing a sandwich from 1908 or 1918, depending on who you ask. It's the French. Today, Barry has upwards of 300,000 followers on TikTok and Instagram. What's his secret sauce?
Is it his avuncular turns of phrase? Is it a morbid fascination with what combos people used to put between sliced bread?
Little a column A, little a column B. But it's probably also just the undeniable, unwavering, universal love for sandwiches. A love that likely goes back way before John Montague, the fourth Earl of Sandwich, supposedly invented them in the mid-1700s.
The story goes that one day Montague didn't want to pause his card game to eat. He asked for someone to bring him roast beef between two slices of bread so he could eat one handed.
clever, if true. But is this really the origin story for the sandwich? Let's ask the former Netflix marketing guy. He did a great job of branding, got his name to be the name of the category. But you know, people have been putting stuff between bread for longer than that, I'm sure.
I did a roge-mo, which I hope I'm pronouncing correctly. It's Chinese. It's from 200 BC. And it's basically a crumpet. And right now, they make it with pork belly more often than not, but it was made with beef and all these spices because it was developed along the spice route. And they just slop that into this crumpet-like bun, if you will, but it's cut. People also call me basically a crumpet, Emory. Ben Brock crumpet, Johnson. How could I forget?
But even if you give Earl of sandwich a crumb of credit, he probably couldn't have foreseen just how imaginative people would get with sandwiches. You could mash up cuisines. You can mash up textures. You can change out the bread. You can change how the bread is soft as it toasted. Is it dipped in egg and milk and fried? Or is the whole sandwich just bread? Like the toast sandwich from Mrs. Beaton's book of household management from 1965.
It is, in fact, a piece of toast between two untested pieces of bread. What's the story there? It is, but it also has butter and salt and pepper. And this is one of those recipes that you find in a section in a cookbook that would be recipes for invalids. That's what they would say. And it's basically for people who had upset systems or were sick. It was something that they could eat and hold down. I thought it sounded ridiculous until I tasted it. And it actually was not bad.
Not bad, but not great. Barry gives each sandwich he makes a score out of 10. The official sandwiches of history score for the toast sandwich? Interesting texture. Okay, I'm gonna give it a three and a half. Plus up with the thin slice of beef, I'll give that a five. Barry loves to plus up sandwiches, as in he'll add an ingredient to an old sandwich recipe, some flavor or texture that he thinks is missing.
It was better, wasn't spectacular. But burial always starts by executing each historical recipe as faithfully and precisely as possible. But I mentioned there were no amounts given in this recipe. Yeah, good fact. Which means sometimes you gotta wing it. There's also recipes where like, you know, take two tablespoons of grated cheese. Great, what kind? What kind of cheese should I use?
And then I have to be cognizant of like American cheese, you know, before a certain date, like 1916 or 1912, just me, cheese from America, not American cheese, like we know it now. Yeah. So the people in the past are like, what are you some kind of salt in or something? You have different kinds of cheese. We got cheese and no cheese. You had sliced bread? Yeah, exactly. Before 1928, that would have been a mind-blowing experience for them.
You know what they seemingly had in slathers, though? Butter. Almost all the American sandwich recipes berries encountered from before World War II made liberal use of it. Every single slice of bread had butter on it. And then it started to go, started to decline because of the war and the rationing and using use of margarine. And by the 60s, it seems to have gone away entirely. Whereas in the UK, it's still done almost everywhere. Wow.
The other thing is that sandwiches weren't necessarily a lunch food. They might be like part of a multi-course meal. They might be a tea sandwich. So they were lighter fare. But lighter fare isn't exactly what Barry is looking for in a sandwich.
Yeah, I want it to be a meal. You know, every once in a while, I'll make a dill pickle and peanut butter sandwich because I grew up eating them. And I think it's quite good, but that's not really a full sandwich sandwich. I'd hate to give them up, but if I had to, because I requested the full sandwich then, so be it. I've never even heard of that. That sounds great. Oh, you never heard of that?
No, I grew up on cream cheese and jelly sandwiches. I could never do that. I could do the work for me. My parents went to each their own. Yeah. What's interesting is the dope pickle peanut butter sandwich. I thought my brother maybe invented it or whatever. No, it's in these books from 1916, 1909. Pickle peanut butter sandwiches have been around for a long time. Listen here, Bob. Give me the morning paper and a pickle and... Peanut butter sandwich.
You also review chips. Welcome to the chips. My name's Barry. Let's get in the chips. What's your favorite classic chip and sandwich combo? I told you we'd come back to some of Ben's burning sandwich questions. Burn it. I think a tuna salad sandwich and a salt and vinegar potato chip or a fantastic combo. Love that. Because then you get a little sharpness, you get the crunch, and then it offsets the richness of the mayonnaise and the tuna salad.
Why do people put so much freaking meat in sandwiches? One thing that consistently bothers me about the sandwich assembly of America is that we love to stuff so much meat into a sandwich. And I'm like, no, it should be equal, like your watery crunch.
should be equal to your meat content. Like, does that make any sense to you? I totally know what you mean, and I totally agree with you actually. It seems to me like every once in a while I'll see a sandwich and that's just stunt food. You just put way too much meat in there so someone will take a picture of it and put it on Instagram.
For me, it's about balance. I want to balance between textures, I want to balance between flavors, I want balance in a sandwich when I go get a sandwich. I don't want more. Thank God for you. Thank God for you. You can't see his face up close, but he's just looking at you with such admiration. I love you, man. I already love you.
Coming up, Ben and I make our own sandwich of history. You can put anything between two slices of bread, three slices of bread, or in our case today, four slices of bread. And the philosophical sandwich questions get deeper. Any other hot debates around sandwiches that you'd like to come out on the record with? Hot dog in a minute.
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At RadioLab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But, but we do also like to get into other kinds of stories, stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. RadioLab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know.
wherever you get your podcast. All right, we know a couple of parameters are sandwiches of history, influencer Barry Enderwick upholds. A sandwich should be a meal, ideally, and it's got to have a balance of textures and flavors. Other than that? I don't have a lot of purity tests when it comes to sandwiches. Like I'll do open-faced sandwiches. I'll do, I'll do just the Halifax Donair, which is kind of like a shwarma where it's wrapped in a pita, just because I don't want to not eat delicious food.
And, as Barry pointed out, sandwiches come in all forms, in part because they come from all countries. Every cuisine has a take on the sandwich. Which Barry celebrates weekly on something he calls... Today is International Sandwich Sunday, and today we're going to be doing an Alutiki burger. Now, Alutiki... Are there any other essential truths about sandwiches that you firmly and fervently believe? Uh, I believe a hot dog is a sandwich.
Mm. Thank you. Keep going. How do you, what about tacos? No. How come? All right. So I'm going to give you two reasons why the hot dog is a sandwich in my book. One of them is deeply, deeply unsatisfying. And the second one is more based on logic. The first one, uh, reason why a hot dog is a sandwich is because everything is made up. The sandwiches is made up.
hot dog, the fact that we call it a hot dog, that's all made up. So not very satisfying. The melodic one is that if you look at a hot dog bun, the two sides are pretty close in thickness. The hinge is very thin. So to me, the hinge is an accommodation for the tubular meat. And it's kind of like, if you go to a sandwich shop,
and they cut the loaf of bread, but they don't cut all the way through. That's still a sandwich, correct? Yeah, and sometimes that's what you want. Like, if you got a sloppy meatball going in there, you might actually benefit from that bread not getting sliced all the way through. Right. Now, don't get me wrong. If someone says, hey, you want a sandwich and they hand me a hot dog, it's going to be weird. But I do think it qualifies as a sandwich. Whereas a taco, to me, the tortilla is pretty uniform and thickness, and it acts more like a sling than it does.
Sandwich. Are there any non-bread sandwiches? Sure. From the up-to-date sandwich book of 1909, we had the dairy sandwich. The dairy sandwich was a slice of Swiss cheese, butter, and another slice of Swiss cheese. That's it. Done. OK, let's give this dairy sandwich a go.
You can really taste the Swiss cheese and the butter. Wow. That was a surprise to me that that would be a recipe in a book, but there it is. You know what Barry did with this surprising recipe? He put it in another book, his own cookbook, which is hot off the panini press. It's a compilation of recipes from Barry's collection of old sandwich cookbooks, such as
Salad sandwiches and chafing dish daintys from 1909. Five o'clock tea from 1896. Remember five o'clock tea, Emery? Nope. Me neither. 101 sandwiches from 1901. 1001 sandwiches from 1936. Barry's OG up-to-date sandwich cookbook from 1909, of course, and the very out-of-date beverages and sandwiches for your husband's friends from 1893.
your husband's friends. Okay. What's great about that is the author of that is one who knows. One who knows. I got to talk to this one who knows. I know.
We approve of the name of Barry's book, though, sandwiches of history, the cookbook, all the best and most surprising things people have put between slices of bread. In it, you'll find things like the Nastursham Leave Sandwich from 1896.
Mmm, the waffled cheese witch from 1974. The chocolate sandwich number three from 1908. The Hot Doggy Sloppy Joe from 1970. And many, many others that Barry thinks are interesting, fun to make, sloppy, and worth giving a go. And I also included one original sandwich recipe in there.
The Dusty Nutter Goose, is that right? That's correct, yeah. OK. It's basically frozen waffle, peanut butter, smoked duck breast, and cherry pop rocks. And then you talk with another peanut butter waffle. Wow. That's a big swing to come out with. Yeah, that's like original sandwich. Yeah.
For me, the big thing is to get folks into trying combinations that they don't necessarily think of or would not think would work. And also to think in terms of how can they add stuff to what they eat to make it more enjoyable, right? So it's more about flavor exploration, combination textures. That kind of thing to me is more important than bring back a specific sandwich per se.
And sandwiches of history does seem to be having that effect. You can see it in the comments on Barry's videos.
But I can't say, I'm not curious. Corned beef, Cuban wasn't on my bingo card for the day, but I'm here for it. I never knew a tomato sandwich could be so decadent. Damn, now I have to make the sardine maple syrup sandwich. And just the kind of community that's kind of grown around sandwiches of history makes it
A lot of fun because everyone's passionately engaged about the flavors in the sandwich. Part of that engagement includes fans suggesting plus-ups of their own. Hear me out. Unsweetened dried tart cherries. Toast the bread in a dark sesame seed oil. Should have added nutmeg to the walnut side. Shouldn't we all have added nutmeg to the walnut side? It's not too late, Ben. Not too late.
Barry also says he gets DMs from folks telling him that he's opened their minds palettes and changed the way they approach cooking. Or I've gotten an over a mother would thank me because their kid was really, really picky and then he started seeing me plus up sandwiches and now he's not, he's wanting to try all different things. So it's deeply gratifying to hear those messages and have people expand what they think of when they think of flavors and textures when it comes to not just sandwiches, any food.
And so, in the name of broadening our own pallets and possibilities, it was time for us to make a sandwich of history. This sandwich seems insane to me, but I'm excited. Yeah, believe me. This is my fault.
Emery's fault because she wanted to make the triple-decker sandwich on the cover of Barry's book, The Sophisticated Club, from 1958. A recipe even Barry was wary of, initially. I looked at it. I thought there's no way it's going to work. It works. It works really well. And it's got an interesting combination of flavors and textures in it.
Interesting indeed. We started with bread, lightly toasted. Four pieces, buttered. One slice toast, we want to put your cheese. American cheese for Ben, vegan cheddar for me, followed by plant meat for me, ham for Ben. This is an interestingly shaped ham. You're kind of an interestingly shaped ham. Yeah, interesting is definitely a word. They won my news, yeah. Ben is a ham. The spirit of the ham. The spirit of the ham. That'll be your first book.
After conjuring up the spirit of the ham, we summoned the spirit of a slice of canned pineapple. I connect with that spirit, canned pineapple. Yeah? Yeah, because, you know, I'm kind of fun and tangy, but I'm very practical. I feel like you're fresher than that. You're more fresh and tangy than canned and tangy. You know what I mean?
I'll take it. Then take another piece of your buttered bread and put a butter side down on top of that. Okay. Butter side down on top of the pineapple. Understood. And then we're going to spread our peanut butter on top of that. Ooh, okay. Then came the unsweetened coconut flakes. I'm spreading it around with my finger. I hope that is very approved. Then the next slice of bread, butter side up. Now we add our bacon. Or faken, a slice of tomato. Or tomato. We're going to season that with salt and pepper.
The regular recipe did not call off the season of tomato. This was one of the things I decided you should need to do that. Yeah, I think my husband started salt and pepper all the tomatoes in our house because of you. So thank you. I have you to thank you.
Welcome. At this point, our sandwich just looked like a bunch of sandwiches on top of each other, but we pressed on with some sliced avocado, even though I think avocado on a sandwich should be mashed. But now you can just place your last piece of bread butter tied down. OK. OK. Wait, what about your plus up?
Well, what we'd like to do is taste the sandwich first and then plus it up. Oh, OK. So now I cut it diagonally. I recommend that. OK. You can do that. I brought a big knife if you want a big knife, Ben. OK. I think this is a plus-up pre-taste that I think you'll approve of, Barry. You tell me. Oh, well.
I got plastic sword cocktail pics, like toothpicks. And I just wanted to make my sophisticated club even more sophisticated. Is that allowed? I say to them self knockout.
And they're also rainbow, which we also have. They're rainbow colored. Ben, would you like a sword? Yeah. On guard. All right, let's give this sophisticated club sandwich a go. All right, we'll spare you our chewing noises, mostly, especially because this Sammy was a tall order. That's a mysterious sandwich. Yes.
Because you basically taste all of the ingredients. Yep. And yet somehow they're not interfering with each other. Right? Or not like combining somehow, like you can taste everything, but it doesn't taste bad. Right, and yeah, now you can see why I wanted to include this in the cookbook because this really on paper doesn't look like it should work. No, but I love it.
Well, that makes one of us, Hamry. So a little plus-up couldn't hurt, right? Yeah, so what's one more ingredient? So the plus-up that I've recommended in the book is chipotle powder. But really, what we're looking for is some sort of smoky heat. It works with the avocado, works with the bacon, tomato, works really well with peanut butter, and with pineapple.
You know what, Amos? I'm going to plus up your spirit and say that you're the spirit of fresh pineapple plus chipotle powder. Oh, I like that. That works. Cool. And you know, I'm going to say the internet got a plus up once in, which is of history got on the scene.
because it just feels like this. It's like a sneaky way of revisiting our past and celebrating our cultural and preferential differences while keeping an open mind and actually trying new things like a lot of us say we're going to do someday.
You know? So an online community that fosters a sandwich renaissance feels hopeful to me in a small, strange, but wonderful way. And in a time when it feels like humans can't agree on much of anything, damn it, it just feels good to get behind the sandwich, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Get behind it, get on top of it, get around it, and get over it, and plus it up, and yeah. And give it a go. And give it a go. Viva la sandwiches of the present, the future, and of history. History, history, history. Barry, thank you so much. Yeah, Barry, it's been a real pleasure talking to you, and I hope you never run out of sandwiches.
Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. And I have a lot of fun hanging out with you guys making a sandwich. Thank you so much for having me on. Barry Underwick's sandwiches of history cookbook is available where books are sold and sandwiches are eaten. Wait, one more sandwich question. Is a book a sandwich? Is a book a sandwich? Oh my God.
My brain just exploded. Is a book a sandwich? The pages are between two even surfaces. The pages are sandwiched, but I would not call it a book a sandwich. I'm sorry for derailing us, please continue. The cover is just a sling then for the page.
Endless Thread is a production of WBUR in Boston, and if you're in the Boston area, Barry Enderwick will be at WBUR's event space, city space on January 21st, and we might be there too. More info at WBUR.org slash Endless Thread.
We will definitely be there. We agreed to be there. We'll be introducing the show. Oh, yeah, we will be there. This episode was written and produced. It's written and produced by me, and we see what's in and co-hosted by me and the spirit of the ham, Ben Brock Johnson, mixing sound design for this episode by.
Not at all a slap of happy, sweet pineapple, but rather a dash of zippy pineapple. Chipotle powder. Chipotle powder, Emily Jinkowski. Who also lent her voice as one of our sandwich commenters, along with our colleagues, Darryl C. Murphy, Mike Mosqueto, and Rob Lane, Steph Brown, Marquis Neal, and Yasmin Ammer from the Radio Boston team. Radio Boston for life.
The rest of our team is managing producer Sumitajoshi, production manager Paul Vikas, Grace Tatter, and Dean Russell. The rest of Barry's team, for this interview at least, was his fiancé, who he learned at the very end was just off camera the whole time? Just hanging out. How does your fiancé feel about sandwiches? Christine, how do you feel about sandwiches? They're okay. They're okay.
If you have an untold history, an unsolved mystery, a photo of your sandwich, or a wild old sandwich recipe that you want us to share with Barry, how about you give emailing EndlessThread at wbur.org?
