Porn, Only Fans and Bodycount - Candice Horbacz

I'm so, again, this is actually something I can get cancelled for, even though it's absolutely true. How do you give a woman the hick? What's this? It's anything. It's anything. It could be the way that your fingernails are clipped. It could be the way that you pick up your teeth.

Well, I just think it's fun. We work really hard. I know me too, and like I said, I really appreciate how brave you guys were. Yeah, but if I held the mug the wrong way, and now a woman's got the ick, can you see why it's easier to be gay? So you mentioned something very interesting there, which is all day foreplay. Yes. Talk to us about that.

Candice, great to have you back on the show. Thanks for having me. We really wanted to talk to you because you're kind of in this super unique position in the your former adult actress, but you also kind of, you know, in a more center right leaning space, I guess. So that's a combination in itself. And then there's all these weird conversations now happening online, like body count and only fans are all this and like, what do you make of all the stuff that's going on?

So I think that there are unhealthy examples of sexuality on the fringes and that even most people kind of in the middle of that bell curve also have an unhealthy relationship to the sex and sensuality and pleasure in general. I've existed in both extremes, so one which is like shame, purity culture, purity rings, and then the other which is all sex is meaningless, have as much of you of it as you want, be gluttonous, there's no consequences, and you can do it all without getting attached. Like that's not true for most people.

So before you're going to tell it, what is a puree? I hope it's not something that I don't want to have the visual of. What is a puree? So purity ring is given to you by a boyfriend or a dad. That's weird. I know. You put it on your wedding ring finger and you make a promise to that man or boy and God and you say that you're saving yourself for marriage. Okay. Right. And so you wore one of these. I wore one. Okay. So you were kind of in that shame bit.

Yeah, for a long time. And I left a long-term relationship. I felt a weird calling and pull to express myself sexually in what I thought was a safe container of the porn industry. And I think that you can learn a lot about yourself through sex. You learn a lot about yourself and you're thrown into the fire because that's obviously still a very taboo industry to be in.

So it forces you to look at yourself. But what I've learned through all of that is that there is no right answer for everybody. You have to kind of come to that on your own. And you have these people that are preaching you that there is this one and only way to have a healthy lifestyle. And I just don't find that to be true. I don't think that we need to hold on to this shame. Like, yes, there are certain versions of shame that are healthy and useful, but that's not what I'm seeing. Like I'm seeing it used against you weaponized. It's meant to make you detached from yourself from your pleasure, from your life.

And then this other thing is equally much of a problem, which is telling mostly young women to just sleep with everybody, be the cool girl and do it without catching feelings. And that's not possible for most women. That's one of the interesting things that I really took away from our conversation with you and with Ayla, who we had on some time ago as well, was that I don't think most women are wired like you or her.

Because I remember talking to her and it was just, it was very authentically heard that the lifestyle that she leads that most women absolutely do not want to have, right? So it seems like all of this advice that people are seeing on the internet, young men, young women, especially, it's like this generalized stereotypical thing is being imposed on everybody when people are different. And then there comes the uber shame part of it, which is when someone is wide differently, they're like a whore or a slut or whatever, straight away. Does that,

ring true to you? Yeah, and I would agree with Ayla. She's wonderful. She's like one of my favorite people and I think that she is living her life authentically and she was posting one of her outrageous tweets that she typically does. It might have been around like an orgy party or something like that. And I think it was Michelle Chen, is that the right name?

Melissa Chen she tweeted she's like this is a lot of words to say my father wasn't in my life and then everyone in the comment section actually came to Ayla's defense because she came from a traditional background super religious conservative traditional dad was very present so maybe let's not just put your

blind assumption on this because people do, there are that the fringes do exist in authenticity, but it's about 5%, 5%, right? So they've done studies and it's literally 5% of women that tend to have a sex drive very similar to a man where they can have casual sex, not get attached emotionally, and it really doesn't leave them feeling used. Most women, when they have sex, they leave feeling used, dirty, discarded.

The context of, does a woman want casual sex? Like the safety parameter has to be there too. So a lot of people will use this study incorrectly or the findings of this study and they'll say, well, we took, we went to a college campus and we asked a bunch of men, would you have casual sex with this girl that they don't know? Almost all of them said absolutely. They did it to women, they're like, absolutely not. Like, see, women don't like casual sex. But like, hold on, hold on. You're like missing a really important factor here. Like there's a safety element.

So what they did is they found a really attractive man that the girl knew and trusted, and they're like, would you have a one-night stand with this guy? Changed dramatically, flipped on his head. Almost all women said yes. So you have to include the safety element when you're talking about women, where like we're smaller, we're weaker, we're more fragile. So of course, most women who are doing cost-benefit analysis, you're not going to take some random guy home from the bar, go to his place and have sex with a terrible idea.

now introduce Erlich's swap-out random guy at the bar for some guy that you've been friends with for a long time but you don't really see a long-term relationship well as she might consider changing her tune on that. Yeah, it's really interesting you say that plus as well there's also the societal element of it where a woman knows that she will be shamed and people will say certain things about her name calling and let's be honest about it a lot of it ain't going to come from men a lot of it is going to come from women.

Oh, absolutely. I think women are the harshest on other women. And I think there is this thing that's going around in the evolutionary biology crew, and they're saying, well, that it's bringing up the expectations for all other women. So now you have to play at that. I kind of think that that's bullshit. There's always been prostitutes. There have always been sex workers. There have always been women that are more available than others, right? So that never cost the high esteem ladies of the court to change what they were doing.

Um, I think that we are sexual beings. Everyone has a different amount that they require or that they need. And again, it's not, it's not to fall into one pre-prescribed bucket that someone's telling you. I think the whole shame concept is really dated. You have to say like, what do, what is healthy sex to me and what do I want? Is this, is this even mine? And I have so many people that ask me all the time, or do you regret anything that you've done? Are you ashamed of anything?

Or is there any lingering shame? I was like, none, that's mine. People want to give me theirs all of the time. And it's this fallacy of I couldn't see myself doing it. Therefore, no one should be doing it. Well, I'm not you and you are not me. So you can't tell me that my decisions are incorrect because you can't put yourself or superimpose yourself into my position.

And I see this time and time again with the body count discussion where I see lots of people on the right going, oh, you know, women can't commit because their body count is too high. Therefore, they can't. And a lot of these people all about all facts and logic and stats. And I'm going, where are you getting this from?

Yeah. So the average woman, it's five people. So all these men that are in the red pill community that are up in arms saying all of these women are now e-girls and they're all whores and everyone's got this body count. You need to ask this on the date. The average number is five. So everyone needs to calm down. Like most people, that is where they're scoring.

Also, what are you trying to gain from that question? What is it really telling you? I don't think it's a whole lot. I mean, again, there are extremes. There's this girl that's going super viral because she's trying to sleep with 1,000 guys, I think, in a day. That's not normal. And she knows that and she's capitalizing on it because it's not normal.

But you see that and then people are like, that's all women. No, the reason that she's doing that for and she's gaining so much attention because it is such an abnormality. So that question to me is really crazy. I don't think that you should bring it to a first day. I think that says that that person is really sexually immature if they're asking that or they're probably really jealous.

You can ask what are your values? What are your principles? What are your goals for the future? Those seem to make a lot more sense. If you have questions around sexuality, it's like, what do you like? What do you not like? Like, you can talk about those kinds of experiences. No, not a first date. No, no, no, no, no. But like, later on, it's like you're interested in that person's like sexual experience and do that. But if it's like, how many? So does that, I don't understand what that's really providing you at death. Here's the thing that never gets said about this, Candice, that since we're friends, we might be able to discuss, discuss kind of amicably and in a friendly way, which is,

A man's concern about his potential partner's number of sex encounters is based on essentially an attempt to assess how faithful she is likely to be in the course of their relationship. And the reason this matters evolutionarily is that

paternal certainty is the thing that really matters to a guy. Like the worst thing from an evolutionary perspective, you know all this, for a guy is that you're raising someone else's kids. Because from a genetic point of view, you know, we know that it's the genes trying to replicate themselves. Well, if I'm investing all my resources into replicating someone else's genes, that's kind of a bad deal for a guy, right? So men are going to want to assess how likely their potential partner is.

to Chi, right? Now, I'm not saying that sleeping with many people in the course of consensual blah, blah, blah, is an indicator of faithfulness, but that's probably where it stems from. Do you agree?

That would make a lot of sense, but to kind of emphasize your point, I don't think that there's any correlation to being faithful in how many partners you have. Do you think there's no correlation at all? I don't think so, because if you look at marriages specifically, men and women tend to cheat equally. And then it's about 30% of marriages, I think after five years, someone is cheating. So if you go back to the statistic that most people have only slept with an average of five people, that's not a lot. I don't think by anyone's standard, especially if you're getting married later on in life,

So both people are at five and we're agreeing that that's not really a lot of people, then it's not really telling you a lot about whether they're cheating or not. And then also when it comes to how many partners a person has had, people tend to kind of find each other where they're similar. So if someone is more conservative and they tend to be more limiting with their sexual encounters, they find someone that matches that. And then promiscuous people tend to find promiscuous people. So you'd kind of have your partner.

And then that tends to lead to a lot less judgment, you know what I mean? Because someone's like, well, I did that too. And that's fine. I don't see a problem with that behavior. So I think where the issue would be is if you have a discrepancy between how both of you look at sexuality, and that should be a conversation. But no one has that. There are so many married couples that, I don't want to say it's an average of 70% of married couples are not comfortable talking about their sexual desires, needs, and fantasies with their married spouse.

And then we know that being able to have that open communication about what your fantasies are with your spouse leads to relationship satisfaction, which leads to health and longevity and yada yada yada. So we have to have the conversation of like, why is this shame still lingering even in the context of married people?

And why do you think that is? Because, you know, again, looking at it from a societal point of view, this is what you were saying really is where the needs of society, I'm using my hand vertically for a purpose, right, from above.

is kind of somewhat oppressive to the preferences of the individual. That's kind of what society does. That's how society works, right? So historically, we society has always not only wanted but needed to control female sexuality and the more traditional the society, the more that, like, Birkers are the perfect example of this, right?

As I said, our conversation was with you and with Eila, I see that some people are wired differently. But I do wonder when you start saying, well, everyone's different than whatever, it's almost like we do need some kind of standard because otherwise I think, like you said, young women in particular get misled into thinking, oh, just go and have as much sex as you want, and there's no consequences. So how do we strike that balance?

I think you have to check in with yourself. I think we have become so detached from our own inner knowing. We all have intuition. We all know when we shouldn't go down that alley or that's maybe a dodgy person, whatever it might be, but we're so disconnected from that that we don't listen to that intuition.

if you are the type of person that if you were engaging with someone even if it's not sexually and it's just you're starting that romantic endeavor and you feel like needy that I don't like that word a ton but you feel needy and you have these unmet needs and you're reaching out all the time and you feel that connection well maybe casual sex is probably not a good idea for you.

And then if you're the type of person that you can do that and it really doesn't bother ruin your day will then explore that but I do think you have to get down to first principles of sex pleasure sensuality. What is all of that right it's life force and you have authors like Napoleon Hill and David data that talk about sexual transmutation so.

I think it's when you talk about oppression coming from the top, I think it's really intentional and I don't think it was only directed towards women. I think that we wanted to disconnect people from realizing their agency, their autonomy, their own inner power because if I can connect to God, if I can connect to source and like find my own abundance internally and with my own tribe, I don't need the church. I don't need the government. So it does make a more like a more

what sort I'm looking for, like obedient society in a sense. And women traditionally have been the gatekeepers of sexuality. You had the old high priestesses, the mystics, the healers, and they did use sex for a lot of those things. The church didn't like that. So there's a whole bunch of reasons that we've kind of gone after the witch or gone after the sexual woman. So again, I think it's going back to like, what does this mean to me going down to first principles? And do I want to treat it like it's something sacred?

and something that I should only be sharing with people intentionally. Do I not look at it that way? I think that it is. I think that if you were going to be sharing that space with someone, that person needs to deserve it. They really need to deserve that time and that moment with you. And that can mean different things. It doesn't mean a lifetime with that person, but it does mean that you should check out some of that man's characteristics. And again, is he a safe person to do that act with?

And since you say that, because forgive me, you're an adult, a former adult actress. So how do those two things connect? Well, when I got in, my view is not the same. That has evolved. So I was under the guise that it meant nothing at all. And I think I was so numb to a point that I was able to do it and not have any feelings.

It was fine. I left without any trauma or any wounds. I don't look back with any negative light, but the way that I approached sex then was very different than I would now. I know that it's going to sound crazy to most people, but it is different. You would only know if you've been able to experience both when you have sex and it's for a performative piece, it's for entertainment. It's very different than having sex with someone because you want to connect with them, whether that is for a moment or for a lifetime.

Imagine that you're being intimate with someone and there's 20 guys in the room, some guys eating chips, another guy is wiping off the counters. It's a very different experience. It's very sterile. So maybe that was also part of it too and why it was easy to disconnect because it's certainly not intimate.

You know, we're talking about performing for camera, and one of the things that I found particularly worrying is the only fan's phenomenon. And I think it's, look, for a small number of people it's absolutely fine to do only fans, but it just seems that more and more young women are going down this path in order to make money and monetize, and my concern is, look, that may work for the short term.

Long term, if you want to go and become a surgeon, if you want to look, even be a mum and then these images get repeated, this is a reputation destroyer, isn't it?

Well, there's a lot with that one. So first, I have been a very big proponent of raising the age for adult content to 25. I think that the fact we allowed 18 is insane. I don't think that that's responsible at all. I got in when I was 21, and that was still probably a little bit too young. So you mean for sorry, for participation or for viewing participation? Yes. Why can we just start with one and we'll go into the other stuff?

I don't think that you can understand second, third, fourth order of consequences of making that decision. It is impossible. Even now as a 35-year-old woman, I still get things that come at me. I was like, didn't see that coming from this thing. So if you have a decision that is that immense, it's going to affect every part of your life that you touch, your family members, if you have kids where you work, your future.

It's something that you can't wash away, no matter what you do unless you become a billionaire and just like swipe the internet clean. So you don't understand that decision. You also don't understand what your value is, what the value of money is. So you might see 300 bucks and you're like, score, this is better than working at my nine to five. Well, temporarily, right? And it's also extremely hard to see the numbers that you're seeing. So it's almost intentionally misleading for a lot of young women.

So you'll see the coronas and she's like, I mean, $65 million over the last three years. That is an anomaly. There are 500 creators in the world out of 5 million that are pulling seven figures a year. That's it. And I know about 15 of them.

the chances of you doing that are almost impossible. You're better off playing like the powerball. So if you're doing it for money or for fame, there are a million other ways that you can do that that cause way less stress to you and your future. So I agree. I wish it wasn't as accessible. I think that back when.

Movies were like the primary source of adult entertainment. That made more sense because like the gatekeepers were so immense, not anyone could just do it. So you deal with that, you deal with suitcase pimps which they put on ads online and then you have girls that are showing up to really dodgy apartments or basements and they're shooting this thing. So yeah, it can be super unsafe. I wish that it was 25. I don't see that passing because there's way too much money in it.

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Just click the link in the description or scan the QR code and subscribe at ground.news slash trigonometry. Your subscription helps ground news bring transparency back to the media, which is something I fully endorse. And what we now see is younger and younger women taking part, but also more and more women taking part.

That is a real problem, isn't it? And that's going to have repercussions way down the line for society, not just the women involved. So there's, everything comes with the cost, right? So you have to decide if that cost is, like that juice is worth the squeeze or if that cost is worth that action. When it comes to making adult content, like I'm not anti-adult content, I just wish more people were doing it in alignment. And that is going to sound crazy to some people, but

you can do something that is art or self-expression, and you can do something that's like for a paycheck. And I've done both. Like, if you Google me, there's stuff that I will die on the hill that it was art, and then there's other stuff that's like, no, absolutely not. It's obvious that that was just like a quick whatever.

If you have someone that is doing it as an authentic expression of themselves and it brings them fulfillment, it's nothing about money. It's nothing about followers. I don't see a problem with that. And then what other people judge or do is not my business. And that's kind of how I would look at it. Rates become undeniable in some kind of way. Use that money wisely. And then how do you want to evolve past that? Or maybe you don't. Maybe that is like, where are you serious? If I know some women that they're going to do it until they're 80 years old, that is what they want to do.

But if you do have the young woman that's doing it because she's in a hard spot where she again wants to get like a quick egg on ramp to fame or money, I would say like this is not the way to do it because again the cost is so high. Additionally, I think we have to have a bigger conversation of why we are

casting these women that make this decision out of society. And somehow we're saying because they were sexual, they can no longer participate in civilized discussions, businesses and industries, because just because you're sexual doesn't mean you have a low IQ or you're incapable of working like a Da Vinci surgery machine. You know what I mean?

And it's also, as well, there's a fundamental hypocrisy there of men shaming these women, guy, look what a whore she was back then. It's like, dude, you watch porn, and you've watched her content. So you're as just as guilty as her. Well, here's the funny thing. Is no one watches porn, and it is really terrible for society and all men, but somehow porn has 150 million unique viewers a day. So I don't know where they're getting those numbers because no one's watching it. Yeah.

It's such a profound point because there's something that we need to talk about here is if you look at suicide rates of a lot of the girls who take part in this, it's horrific. There's something else going on here. Or maybe there isn't. What do you think about this?

So I think a lot of people that especially are on the conservative side of everything tend to link that to porn and they're like obviously this industry is toxic and these women can't handle it and there's a lot of trauma and that's why that's happening. Sure, I'm sure that exists for some of the cases but what I see as well and I don't know how you would delineate which one is which is that it is impossible to go back into society. If I wanted to go be a teacher, absolutely not. If I wanted to be a doctor, I'd probably get laughed out of whatever school I was in. Like anything that I tried to do that wasn't me being self-made is just not going to work.

So if you have that, and you have all of this judgment, and we don't have any room for grace, redemption, or transmutation, then what are we doing? What is that saying about us as a society as whole? Is our shame so innate and so powerful that anyone that tries to escape whatever that conditioning is, we have to reel them back in because that forces us to challenge ourselves and look at ourselves and say, do I really want this or not? Because your existence is a threat to everything that I've been told is right and good.

Well, this is what I was going to ask you. Why do you think that is? Because whether, like, I think your former career was the right thing or the wrong thing, I don't see how it would be disqualifying to another career now. I just, I don't see it. I can see why people might argue about a teacher because you're around kids. They're going to Google you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But with most other things, I just don't see why there would be that reluctance. Again, whether I thought porn was right or wrong, if someone applied for a job as a producer on our show, I wouldn't be like, oh, that person did porn, therefore no. I don't see it that way. So why do we as a society seem to think about it in our way?

Again, I think it goes back to our own shame that a lot of people are holding on to and there's still so much hypocrisy. It was during the pandemic there was this woman and she was like a paramedic or an EMT and it was found out that she started only fans. She was a single mom. She was doing it because her shifts got cut in half. I think it was during lockdown and she needed to make money to literally keep the lights on. So one of her coworkers found her only fans account.

tells her boss, she gets fired, but he doesn't. So he's obviously on the site as a consumer and there's no repercussions for that. But because she was the one that was making the content, she's now fired because that's not okay. So if you're going to have rules, at least have it be the same for both parties, right? It's either you are making some some claim for your company and you stand against this, whatever. Okay, well, then that also applies to the consumer, not just the woman.

And you use words like shame and guilt and all of this stuff a lot. Where does that come from? So I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Europe tends to have a much more open relationship when it comes to sexuality. Like there are PSAs that I've seen in Germany where there's two naked people and they knock on the door with a laptop and this mom opens it and they ask, do you know where your kid is? And she's horrified and they go like this. He's upstairs and then they teach her about internet safety.

So they're approaching it from a really responsible and pragmatic way, right? These kids and their safety online are your responsibilities. The parent not ours is the performers. They shouldn't be watching this. Here, let's ban everything, which is so funny, especially in Texas, because we're supposed to talk about freedom, but only for freedoms that we agree with on certain topics.

But when the United States was settled, we had King James that had the Puritans, and they were insufferable. And he was like, I've got to get these people out of here. Even the Christians were like, these people are nuts. And the Puritans were calling all these other Christians the others because they thought they were so much better. So they shove all these Puritans on a boat.

take them over to the United States and then they're like some of our founding fathers and they developed our first cities and our first towns. So that is still here and we're relatively new right like 307 years old as a nation. So that does leave a certain frequency and expectation on a people.

But I think the shame exists not just in the United States and not just in countries with a Puritan mindset. I think it's probably quite universal around the world. And I think it's got to be something about what Francis mentioned earlier, which is the existence of women who are available in whatever shape or form that is, is a threat

to the wives or whoever. And as you talked about, it's also a, it's kind of like you're devaluing the currency, right? When there's more sex, more of something is available, the price goes down, right? Do you think that's also what's driving this? That's driving what?

that's driving the shame and the guilt that exists because it's a way to basically make sure that the value of sex is high. So you can exchange it for marriage, safety, money, whatever, in that way. Well, yeah, it's absolutely being weaponized for sure. But if you look at one of our closest primate relatives, the bonobo, those females use sex all the time to get what they want. So they'll pretend that they're an estrus and get a guy to help make them a nest or to

bring them meat or whatever it is because they have that need and they're like, oh, just kidding, I can't get pregnant. So that's always existed. And women's sexuality, I think, before Christianity kind of swept through the world, it was treated a little bit differently. Yes, it was sacred. Yes, it was important, but it wasn't necessarily within marriage. Marriage itself is relatively new.

And then even once that became institutionalized, the average marriage was 10 years before someone died. So this whole concept of monogamy, Esther Peral has a really good bit on it. She's like, it doesn't exist anymore. So monogamy was one person for the rest of my life. And now it's one person at a time. And then it's also one person at a time. There's also Jill and Sally on the side. So this version of monogamy has been kind of ever changing.

you look at these divorce rates and you can say that these promiscuous women are the cause of it will know it. The whole idea of marriage is relatively new and I think we're just trying to navigate it. And I think the biggest problem with a lot of marriages and why they're failing is no one is looking at it and saying, what are my needs? We're trying to just take this blank, like this blank canvas and say this applies to everybody. And it's like, no, well, I have different needs. What do you expect? What is infidelity to you? Because that's different.

across the board. Some people, it's watching pornography is considered cheating. Some people, if you go to a hooters, that's cheating. So you have to have these conversations of expectations for the relationship. What are your needs? How are you showing up in this? And then, yeah, so I don't, I think blaming porn and promiscuity is

It's kind of like lazy thinking in a way and that when you have a certain group of people that are constantly blaming the same buggy man. We can't take this seriously. I think most of our problems are super layered and complex and that's not to say that porn's not a problem. I think the accessibility is a problem, right? There should be paywalls. Again, the age is a problem. But I don't think that the answer is creating these bands that we see and I think it's eight states now that are putting up this paywall.

And it's in my opinion, it's actually creating more dangerous behavior online and doing so. So tell us more about that when you say so in Texas, it's illegal. It's not illegal, but there if you try to access a site, it'll say like Pornhub, for example, they pulled out because they're suing the state. So they made the choice, but they they list the legislation and it would require you to upload a government issued ID. And in some states, it's also a facial scan before you act. That's you have to verify your identity. Right.

But then who's holding that there have already been data breaches. And then the other issue is that these main companies that everyone kind of wants to target have the most above board content. Like they have the most legal content and they're listening. So you force these kids to then go to these dodgy honeypot sites that are not following the same rules and you don't know how ethical that content is. And that's actually where you don't want them. And then additionally,

It's over 80% of littles that, like, minors that come across adult content for the first time. It's not even on a porn site. So it's on Facebook. It's on Instagram. It's on TikTok. It's on Telegram. So you do this thing under the guise of safety and protecting kids. Now you have parents that are like, oh, I don't need to worry because the state just put the filter on. Well, no, you actually do need to worry because that's not where they're going to find it anyways.

It's such a good point because I remember when I was a primary school teacher and the kids had sex ed lessons. And for people watching this, what that actually meant was it taught kids how to be safe. It said to them, look, if somebody tries to touch you here, this is bad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, this is how you protect yourself. And I remember one parent saying to me, like, oh,

That isn't going to happen. That's not a problem. I shield my parents. I shield my kids from everything. And I was like, well, OK, but your kids got the latest iPhone. What do you think they're watching on it? And you just saw the light come on in their eyes. So I think the problem is is that people don't realize they they hand everything over, for instance, to the state and go, oh, the state will keep me safe without realizing that kids are smart. They're far more technologically adept than them, and they're going to be able to get round these paywalls, for example.

Oh, and they're using VPNs too. So it's super easy for them to get wherever they want. I think it is mind-blowing and reckless parenting when you see parents that are giving an iPhone unrestricted to their child. And what are you that lazy of a parent? Like you cannot play or entertain or engage with your kid to the extent that you have to give them a phone. That's crazy. That's bonkers to me. I think at some point, yes, they need to have access and they need to learn safe protocols.

self-control, delayed gratification. How do I feel when I watch this amount of screen time? But that's later. You don't give a tool to someone who's not ready or mature enough to handle it. And an eight-year-old, absolutely not. 10-year-old, absolutely not. Do you think part of the problem as well with the way that we're having this conversation? And I see the way the men behave online. And it kind of makes me think there are very few people that can make a man feel inadequate than a woman. So if a woman rejects a man,

It's hard. It's hard for men to deal with and men then start to question themselves. So women have this power and a lot of men are uncomfortable with it and it makes them angry because they realize that they are not in control.

Well, no one has control. That's all an illusion anyways. But yeah, I think rejection's got to suck. I don't know how you guys do it. I have no, like I applaud you because if I were in charge of dating, I would die alone. I would be way too terrified to approach anyone out of fear of rejection. It just wouldn't happen. So I think it's very brave to be a man and be in the dating pool.

Yes, I think there are a small group of men that see women that don't need a man, right? Because now they can provide for themselves in every realistic way. But those men have always existed. So I think we're giving them way too much power and we're listening to their voice a little bit too much. I think that there's a problem. I mean, I've seen some girls that are like, I'm going to milk everyone dry. That's kind of a gross attitude to have.

I try to be really conscientious about how I do content. I'm not online all the time. If I see unhealthy behavior, I stop it really quickly. And even just from a safety standpoint, I think that that's necessary. But we talk about these girls and how easy it is to make this money. It's not because, again, only 500 people in the world are making serious money off of this.

But then you have to look at the bigger infrastructure because if you look at all of the industries, they're still ran by men. So what these women, even the one that's like $65 million over three years, that's laughable to the guy that actually owns only fans. So no, women are not taking over and they're not trying to eradicate men. I think at scale, I think it's just a bunch of what you would call in cells that have always existed. But now they don't have wars to go fight or villages to go raid. They just have the internet. And also as well,

I've just been looking at the way that women and men have been interacting in real life. It seems, and maybe this is anecdotal evidence, but women are complaining that men don't approach any more, that it's becoming harder and harder to date, people are becoming ever more increasingly lonely. Surely that's an effect of porn. Porn must have a massive impact on that, because if you're a young dude,

Why are you going to take the risk? Why are you going to risk being rejected? Why are you going to risk potentially being humiliated? Why are you going to risk any of that when you can stay at home, watch porn, get that out of the way and then go about your day.

Well, no, so that also doesn't track because the average man goes to a porn site two or three times a week and he's on for four minutes, four to six minutes. Those are the numbers. Those are the numbers. Those are the stats. If you have a guy that's only going on two or three days a week, I don't think that that's sufficient enough for him to give up on dating, having a human connection.

And then also the neurochemistry that releases when you have an orgasm by yourself is entirely different versus when you're with someone else hitting everyone who's had both experiences can attest to that. So it's almost like comparing like lighting a match to a firework. So yes, one thing is temporarily satisfying, but I don't think it's going to satiate this greater need that we have, which as human beings is to replicate, right? It's to connect and replicate. We're here to make more of ourselves.

So yes, I do think that that might relieve some pressure, but I see that as a good thing because I know so many guys that have so much anxiety before they go on a date. So they'll do that and they can show up calm and collective and see the woman for something other than a sexual being. Like, am I interested in this woman? Can I build a life with this woman? Do I find her interesting because I think when we

over sexualized people, that that can kind of hide a lot of red flags. And then you can dismiss a lot of really bad behavior because you're really attracted to them. So if you can do this, get the edge off, you almost see the person more authentically. I think you made a really good point a little bit earlier where you talked about the fact that we listened to certain people a bit too much. And the way I think about it is like in every pub in England, there's always been like a Gary the wanker in the corner.

Right, that would say stupid shit and everybody would know that's Gary the Wanker, we ignore him and get on with that day. And now you've got like 400,000 Gary the Wankers who've been assembled in one place all talking to each other, reinforcing each other's beliefs and suddenly you're hearing all this stuff that just doesn't seem to me to make any sense. The issue is there are people listening to this stuff and it's changing how people think and that's scary to me.

It's really scary and I don't know what you really do about it other than try to offer this group of people some hope and something better. There's I think that's why Jordan Peterson became the worldwide phenomenon that he is is because he's trying to speak to these people. It's hard because if you feel hopeless and you don't have connection and you don't see a future and then someone is pointing out one thing or one group of the population and saying they're the reason you don't have it.

how dangerous and effective is that? We see it and we've seen it throughout history. If you're always blaming the same thing or the same gender, maybe it's a you thing because the whole thing is women are supposed to be picky. If they are bringing things out in you and they're showing you your insufficiencies or your deficits or their challenge you need to rise up,

Don't get mad. That's like a call to action. What a beautiful gift that the feminine can give the masculine is showing you where you're not showing up because what we see in you is all of this potential. And maybe sometimes that harshness is the thing that some men need in order to like reevaluate and say, no, she's right. I need to be doing more with my life. And I think it's simply a mindset change and a reframe. So instead of saying, all these women are rejecting like, ask, why? Why is she rejecting you? And then what can I do to be a better man that is worthy of love and affection for

I think that's a really great point and actually that is historically how Men have been encouraged to think about these things like you were supposed to be better and then everything else happens, right?

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Changing texts slightly, one of the things we were just talking about the other night is just how much power a beautiful woman has in the world. And it's interesting because we do live in a world where it's like, we've got this weird form of feminism where women are like really powerful, but also the victim of everything. What do you make of all of that? Because I imagine you know that you have a lot of power over some men at least, right?

I don't know because I don't fall into that victim trap. I tried very hard not to be there. I don't understand the use of it. I think it maybe goes to the damsel in distress archetype and some women find power in that and they feel that someone's going to swoop in and try to help them and

claim them in some kind of way. So maybe it's a mating tactic. I'm not really sure. But there's that one quote where the beauty is a short tyranny or something like that. And I would agree. But we were talking about it a little bit earlier. And yes, it can be used for you or against you. So I'm going to choose used for me because no matter what, it's there. So it's like if someone gave you this beautiful gift and this tool and you're like, you have this for maybe like 40 years, 30, something like that. Use it or don't.

Of course I'm gonna use it, but he's silly not to. It was given to me by God. Yeah, look, I completely agree. Like, you know, I sometimes see comedians complaining because there's a good-looking comedian on stage. They're like, oh, he's only, you know, he's only dressing like that because he looks like that. I'm like, dude, if you had the discipline, the hard work and the genetics to look like that, you'd wear the tight T-shirt too. Let's just be honest about it. You've got to use what God gave you.

I think so, and I've met some female comics that try to dumb themselves down because they say that they want their comedy to be the only thing people are looking at. And yes, that's admirable, but no one else is playing by those rules. And I'm not saying go out there and lingerie like if you want to go for it. Go for it.

But it doesn't make sense to downplay who you are or what you look like because you feel that that's going to take away from your skill. I think you can have both. I think you can be talented and beautiful. And the people that say it's a cop out or say she's only there because of her looks or he's only there for their looks. Well, they're saying that because they're not anywhere.

Do you think that's true that you can be, see, you can be beautiful and talented, but I think what people are on to, and this is like a super controversial thing to say that everybody knows is true, it's like,

with a guy, I think. I may be wrong, I may be corrected by the internet, but with a guy, it's like when a guy sees a beautiful woman, it is very difficult, at least initially, for him to see beyond that. Is that what I mean? I'm one of the good guys. I just see the soul. I think this is, yeah, I should've. This is one of the reasons, I think,

it is probably extremely difficult for a female politician to succeed, especially if she's attractive. Because it's like, it's not that you can't respect someone who's attractive. You can, but it's just kind of hard to get there. You know what I mean?

So do you think that there's... This is actually something I can get cancelled for even though it's absolutely true. So do you think that there's a gradient though? So can you be a seven or an eight and it's faster to move versus a nine or a ten? And then there's also the halo effect. So the halo effect applies to men and women and it's if you're perceived as generally good looking that people are nicer, you make more tips, you're more successful, you're salaries. You have more friends.

Your life is kind of better than other people. Yes, it was beautiful religion. Right, so there's that too. There is, right. But it comes with trade-offs, right? It's like there's positive. So my father, for example, when he was in his early 30s, he became wealthy overnight, basically, like in the space of a year. And I remember him telling me how actually unpleasant he found

that women would now look at him completely differently, right? Because it's kind of like, oh, so that's what they want from me, right? And I imagine the same if you're an attractive woman, like there's some massive benefits to it, but you also get some attention that you probably don't want, right?

Right. For sure. There's a ton of cost because the way that you go throughout the world, you have to kind of be a little bit more guarded and shielded because most of the time it does have an effect on a lot of men and a lot of people. And then you have to ask, am I here because I earned this or am I here because he's trying to sleep with me?

and some and a lot of times it's the latter and then that sucks and then as the woman you're asking yourself how do I navigate this because I still want this job or this opportunity and now he just made it kind of awkward and you don't want to again dismiss him or turn him down because then you're not going anywhere so this is really delicate dance of how do you exist use this superpower in a way that is not also welcoming unwanted behavior it's very tricky.

I'm sure. And by the way, with guys, I know, again, from speaking to guys about this, there's also a thing where it's like a guy might not want to sleep with you, but it's going to sound so terrible. But it's nicer to have an attractive woman around than some other mutant hairy guy. Do you know what I mean? No, for sure. It's such a terrible thing in the modern world to say, but I think it's true.

no it's absolutely true and david data rights about this too so this goes into uh... he writes a lot about polarity and like how the masking masculine and feminine work together and he specifically specifically talks about the relationship of an attractive woman or one that is perceived as attractive by a man and and uh... her proximity to him so what it uh...

Like an aligned, mature masculine will do is instead of just like oogling this woman and just seeing her as something to kind of like use as a whole, he takes that life force that creative energy and he like sends it upwards in a way and uses it for creativity. He uses it for drive and he uses it for appreciation. So it's like almost like this gift that she's giving him and he's like, Oh, thank you. This is beautiful. I'm gonna use it somewhere else.

And that's such a good point because you can find a woman beautiful and be respectful and have an enjoyable conversation or interaction. You don't have to go to the other extreme, which you see some men doing. You know, because let's be fair, flirting is fun. And actually, it makes the sometimes tedious humdrum of life that bit more enjoyable.

Oh, yeah, it's great. It's a love language. I think flirting is absolutely a love language. But I think that comes down to compulsion and just self-control, which a lot of people are lacking. So it's not being able to see the woman as this muse, essentially, which women have always been to men, like the thing that inspires them. So take it as a muse, but they're like, no, I actually have to capture this and make it mine, which is more of an immature way to look at it. That's really interesting.

You know something, I'm absolutely shocked that it hasn't gone super viral on the internet now that I have said this, it will, because there's a, because what I'm trying to say is men are really dumb. There is a bit in our conversation with Ayla when we ask her, how do you become, I don't remember the exact question, but something like, how do you become seductive to a man or whatever? And it's really interesting because lots of people find Ayla attractive and

Great. Personally, not my type. And I don't say this with any condescension whatsoever. But both me and Francis, the moment she started demonstrating it, we were like, Oh, hello. Yeah. Yeah. The lizard part of my brain was right. Come on, boys, we're getting ready. And I'm like, what? No, I got to see it. Yeah. Yeah. And it was actually kind of humiliating the way she said it, because she was like basically have to like use smaller words and it was really like men are really fucking dumb.

Yeah, open the eyes, you talk slower, you go a little bit deeper, you sink into, and we're just there going tick, tick, tick. Yeah, it's just like it's all working automatically. So what I mean is like, that this is why I mentioned the power thing. It just feels to me like...

the disempowering conversation that we've got to, I don't know, it's really difficult to negotiate all of this because I just see a lot of bullshit being like people go, oh, you're objectifying women. Well, when you dig down to the very bottom of it, what they mean is you find a woman attractive, usually. That's what they mean, right? And it's like, that's what men's brains evolve for. Like, we're not, there's no way to shut that down. I haven't found one, you know what I mean?

So when I hear objectification, I don't think finding someone attractive or checking them out. That's not what people mean. That's not what I would... What do you mean when you... When I think that, I think it's being dismissive of the whole person and only putting them in one bucket. So whether it's because they are online showing themselves or whether because they're just an attractive person and that's the attention that they're garnering,

It's that that's the only thing that they're allowed to be. And then if they try to come out of that, they get, like they lose respect or you treat them differently or you, right? It's like, it's not seeing the whole person. So I think that you can find someone sexually appealing and again, you can check them out. I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. I would totally agree. You're wired to do that. It would take probably 20 years of Zen Buddhism for that not to be it.

Um, I think it'd be really hard for you to get rid of that behavior entirely, but to me, when you talk about that, it's more just dehumanizing the person. But I don't understand what that means. So let's say I see an attractive woman walking down the street and I go, Oh, hello, right? Is that have I objectified her that? But I haven't seen the person. I just see her body, right? No. So I think it's more, um,

like, predatorial than that. Like, I think it's when someone maybe is expressing some kind of sexual violence in a way, and that can be different things. So some people would say, cat calling is I'm on the fence about it, because I think context is really important. If it's the middle of the day, and there's a bunch of people out, no, I'm not going to feel threatened. If it's at night, and it's only me and you and you're doing that, that is so inappropriate. And that, that to me is kind of terrifying that that's going into sexual violence territory. So context is really important.

I think when it comes to objectification, I'm not expecting you to ask her name, her sign, her family history. I don't think any of that's required, but I think it would be anything that was more inappropriate or dehumanizing. So if you're talking to someone at a restaurant or at a bar and like, I don't know, you're just kind of being like, you're just being a dick. I don't know how to explain it. And we all know that guy, you know what I mean? Where he's just like, you are a thing to be used versus that woman's really beautiful or she's really hot or whatever that narrative is.

So you talk about something very interesting, which is all day foreplay. Yes. Talk to us about that. So it goes back to the responsive desire versus spontaneous. So I'm sure you guys can walk in the kitchen and you see your lady and like, yes, right? Like she's wearing sweatpants and you're just immediately ready to go. What is it about sweatpants?

It's not sweatpants, I want to get Canada's point here. Do you see a woman? No, but sweatpants is something about sweatpants. I think it's vulnerability, like safety comfort, right? She doesn't leave that way, so it's more of like a youth, you intimate moment. Yeah. Look, I'm judging you, but I'm not judging you. Well, I'm not, I think that that's the thing. Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Wait, sweatpants are a thing? Yes, sweatpants! And women love grey sweatpants. Yes, women love grey sweatpants on men. It's like fall if you do that. This is the beauty of trigonometry. You get an education.

Anyway, in the kitchen she's wearing sweatpants. So guys can be spontaneous and they don't really need a lot of revving up and they can get where they want to be. You guys also tend to have less sensitive breaks. So there's a lot less things that will interrupt your flow. Women, a lot of us, have very sensitive breaks, like the bird start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start, start.

So you have to think about threat detection, right? So we are constantly surveying everything. We have a much wider focus because we are more likely to get eaten. We menstruate. We attract bears. It is just wired in us to constantly be doing these things. You guys are hunters. So you have direct focus. You guys can focus on one thing. Maybe not you and I so much, but focus on one thing. And it's very hard to distract.

Wait, wait, wait. That's not going to make sense to anyone. We were talking about ADD. Otherwise, that could be confused in a very interesting way. We're talking about ADD. Your brains both jump from place to place. That's what Candice was saying.

We're clarifying. No, it is. You don't know, right? But so women in order to feel safe, it's all of these little touch points throughout the day. So what you think is her nagging that sock on the floor, you're not taking out the trash. If you said you were going to go get milk and you didn't, well, these in the modern era are versions of you not being reliable and not being a safe partner.

So if you're not doing this, the element of safety is out the door, right? Now you're creating a lot of stress for her. It's going to be impossible for her to relax and be present with you, which is required for her to have arousal. It's the intimate touch. She wants to know that you're connected and that you're invested throughout the day. So it's little grazes, little kisses, little like eye gazes. How many times can you walk by your partner and not even look at or acknowledge them, right? So it's if she talks, you respond.

You know, just ignore her. All of these little things now kind of equate safety and modern era. So you want to make sure that you're spending like the two seconds it takes to just like, yes babe, I heard what you said. Yes, I'm going to take out the trash, like do all of these things and you will be so grateful you did it because she will be relaxed and more receptive. So when the kids are in bed or everything is done and you're winding down, like she's in this place where she wants to engage with you.

And there's something that I want to talk about, which is because we're talking about that, and that's really interesting. And then there's this thing called the friend zone. And you get lots of content now about people, men being too nice in particular. What does that actually mean?

I just think it's attraction. I think that's a secret sauce that no one knows. Like why do you fall in love with the people that you do? Why are you attracted to the person that you are? I don't think anyone has figured that out. So women get the ick very easily. So I don't know if you've heard of that. I don't think anyone's ever come back from the ick. So once that happens, it's over. So how do you give a woman the ick? What's the easiest? It's anything.

It could be the way that you pick up your tea. It could be the way that you bend down to pick up something. Everyone is different. You know I'm going to say something that's going to sound unfair.

That's not right. No, it's not fair. It's not fair. Well, I just think it's. We work really hard. I know me doing like I said, I really appreciate how brave you guys. Well, yeah, but if I hold well, I held the mug the wrong way. And now a woman's got the.

Do you know what? A woman once told me, like, she goes, you're perfect. I think you're such a great guy. You've got everything. She goes, I'll be honest with you. I can't. And I'm like, why? She went, just the way you eat pizza. You fold it like this. Actually, you know what? That's how I feel about you as well, man. How do you need the pizza? I just fold it like that. So I've got it, and then I eat it like that. So the cheese doesn't drip. And she just said, I thought that was weird. Is that the eggfish? Not for me, no. All right. Yeah. So it's the way you're...

The way you hold the mug. I'm happily married. I'm still upset for men everywhere. That's unfair. Well, I think in a weird way, maybe it's your body just saying that that's not the right person. And then when they do the attraction experiments, they had the women smell the t-shirts that the guy was wearing for three days.

So they would smell which one and then they would rate attraction based off of that. And what they found is that the women that were picking certain t-shirts, it was actually the most genetic differences. So that is to create viable offspring that are more resistant to any kind of illness or plague and viruses, et cetera. We don't become a medieval royal.

Right, so maybe part of that is clicking into your olfactory system and maybe it's actually pheromones that just you get a waft of and then he's doing a thing. So instead of you realizing it's really pheromones, it's like, no, he ate his pizza weird. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.

There's also the other element of it, which is, and I've had female friends say this to me, she was like, yeah, I knew he wasn't the one that I wanted to go out with. And I'm like, why? He saw a spider and he let out a little scream. Well, yes, I would agree with that all day, because that goes back to masculinity and polarity. So men have a relationship to death. You're supposed to. Women have a relationship to life. We're supposed to. So when it comes to killing the bug,

That is the masculine. It does have a significance in our psyche. It's not just killing a spider. It's, well, he killed a saber to tiger. Yeah. Or another man who's coming. Right. Exactly. It's about safety. So coming back to the friend zone, do you think, see, this is the conversation that I'm actually really glad we're having this chat, even though it doesn't really apply to me, but it's still very interesting, theoretically, because

The conversation about the friend zone from a male perspective, there is a dimension to which is like a woman wants a bit of danger and unpredict. She wants her man to kind of be like a little bit hard to read and for that to be a little bit of like

unpredictability to him. And like, he's not going to bow down to my wishes. He's kind of like, he's his own man. And he, I know you, whereas the advice a lot of men get, oh, it's just been nice, just been that. And then when, when a lot of guys do that, they then find themselves in a position when they feel that maybe what they're not is they're not sufficiently interesting and not sufficiently unpredictable, not sufficiently even sometimes some might say not sufficiently dangerous to be attractive to a woman.

I think women want a man that has purpose and I don't think any woman wants that purpose to be her. So if that is the center of his world and he's bending over backwards or she's like, oh babe, don't work on your project tonight or can't you just call out or write and he's constantly bending to her will.

Well, now she's the center of his orbit. And I don't think any woman truly wants that. So we want a man that has a purpose that's outside of us, right? And still to show us love and affection and still give us time. It's not to say don't give us any of those things, but there has to be something bigger. So I think if you do have a man that is a yes man, he's so agreeable. And again, it's almost love bombing in a sense that she's like, he doesn't have a purpose. And I think that's what it is.

And also, let's talk about testing, because apparently this is a thing women test all the time. Well, there's healthy versions, and then there's toxic versions. I think, again, that's the role of the females is to test the man. It is to demand a higher performance of you in every single way, right?

you can't test the strength of a pillar or a cliff unless you have a wave that's crashing on it, and the feminine is that wave. So every time it's can you handle the fullness of the feminine, can you handle the fullness of chaos? I want to see how you're going to show up in those conditions. Yeah, yeah, I've been there. And most men haven't. It's something that you have to say thank you and look at it with love and gratitude and again a call to action and a call to being a higher elevated man.

But if you have someone that's over testing, or I saw this one woman, she pretended she passed out in the shower, out cold, laying there and hitting her camera and this guy is losing, like for way too long, she's sitting there and he's losing it. He's trying to resuscitate her. He's looking for his phone. He's panicking. That's an unhealthy test. That man needs to leave.

That woman needs an unhealthy amount of attention. That's really odd behavior. I think that you'll be able to know if you check in. Is she testing me because she loves me and she knows what I'm capable of? Or is she testing me because she's insecure and she wants to make sure I'm not going to go anywhere? Or is she testing you because that's just what women do.

Yes, yes, women do test. But again, I think that that is our position. That's our role. Well, understandably so. I mean, you have to use indirect ways of finding out certain information, right? Right, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's inherently bad. Yeah. Candice, what a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Final question is always the same. What's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? Before Candice answers the final question, at the end of the interview, make sure you click the link in the description. Head to our sub stack to see this.

The way that Europeans have sex is very different than American men. Really? Yes. What's the difference? What's the best chat up line you've ever heard? How much foreplay do women generally need? What does sexual wellness look like? And what do I want my relationship to pleasure to be? What does sexual wellness look like?

I think it's first step is removing shame and the second step is getting down to first principles and deciding what you want that to look like and not living your life based off of the fear of everyone else's response, like to live your life authentically for yourself through agency, finding that

that passion that play because pleasure isn't inherently sexual, right? It's like it's how you play with your kids. It's how you cook food. It's how you garden and it's it is uncoupling the shame or the guilt or that you have to work to earn that and that's inherently yours. You were born into this world with like love and light and joy and pleasure and then that slowly kind of gets chipped away to where I have to earn my peace or have to earn my play and I disagree with that.

All right, head on over to Substack where we ask Candace your questions. We recently reached a huge YouTube milestone with a million subscribers. Amid the celebrations, however, there have been a few cynical voices too. Some people were asking, how did two guys with weird hair and no obvious talent manage to create some of the most sensible, balanced, non-partisan conversations on the internet? How do they attract massive guests?

Some people have even gone as far as to ask who funds you. And the time has come to confess the truth. For the last six years, we've only been able to produce the show because of financial support from some nefarious, problematic people of highly questionable moral integrity. You. Many thousands of you. That's why the show no longer looks like a Beatles tribute act doing a seance. Now it looks like this.

this and this. The guests keep getting bigger, the conversations keep getting better and this is just the beginning. We're excited to announce that we will be moving our locals community including all bonus content to our new home at Substack. If you're already a supporter, your subscription will be moved over automatically. As for the rest of you, this is your chance to step up and join us as we go to the next level. Give me money!

Well, we need a bit of finesse here. What he's trying to say is that the show will only keep getting bigger and better with your help. You already know about the bonus content we have for supporters for just seven bucks a month. All 70 bucks a year, you get ad-free extended interviews with a chance to ask our incredible guests your questions.

but with sub-stack, you're gonna get a lot more. Insightful articles on upcoming guests, a weekly newsletter, the ability to chat with each other on the app, both privately and in threads. You'll also be able to connect your podcast listening app, like Spotify or Apple Music, and enjoy the extended and free interviews on the go. Your support will mean that we'll be able to do more incredible US and other overseas trips with bigger and better guests.

That means more phenomenal extra content for you as we get the best minds in the world to talk about the issues that truly matter. No bullshit, no fudging, just an honest conversation with a fascinating person. Plus, I'll be able to afford a proper haircut. You're not going to get one, but at least you'll be able to afford one. Good point. Click the link and join 40,000 people like you to make the show you love better again.

How much of the body count discussion do you think is driven by men's fears that a woman with many sexual partners in her past is more likely to cheat?