Peter Crouch Opens Up About His Dark Times & Crying Himself To Sleep

I've seen things that I've never seen before. You know, the proudest moment of my life has been taken away because of that.

I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy. Bond a pitch, I'd have to be a different person if I wanted to succeed. The top level players that I've played with, Lampard, John Surrey, Stephen Gerard, I think, look like they don't enjoy it. They are constantly battling for the next thing. Were they intense? Some intense, yeah. And, you know, a big reason why I'm the person I am.

I stayed for England in Niro where it felt like there was a huge pressure. You know, we had an opportunity to win World Cups and because we didn't, it was heaped on players. I've got my mum, my dad and friends in the crowd. And then you come on and get booted by 70,000. It's hard to come back from that.

My mum was crying. I had to have a fight. I was thinking about giving up football. I think I wasn't seen as what an England striker should look like. I was so scared. I always just wanted to hide away. In that phase, you were turning to drink more than you should have been. What I needed to at that time, you're not seen as people. It's like you're well paid, so you have to endure this abuse. You know, you put yourself in a position to be shot at, but what I've seen with certainly Harry Maguire, the criticism goes beyond criticism. It's gone too far.

I'm so proud to represent my country book. Peter. Where do I need to start in your story to really understand?

you. What's the most pertinent, relevant things that someone listening to this needs to know about you to understand you?

Well, right, the start, I suppose. I think it's everything comes from your childhood, right? I am who I am and shaped by my parents and my friends. And I suppose people see me now, obviously, like I had a determination to be a footballer, a huge determination to be a footballer.

And then people see me now as a footballer who has a laugh, I suppose. And that is my persona. But that stems from my childhood, really, and being a little bit different, looking a little bit different, and having a maybe a defence mechanism. And that humour, or probably that you see, which is me now, was a little bit of a defence mechanism. When someone came at me, I'd always be funnier than they would be.

And then that stops whoever's saying it in their tracks. And then that being so tall at such a young age was difficult at times. But that kind of defense mechanism was I laugh at myself before you can laugh at me. And that would still be a good stead. And even now, that's the way I get through things. When was the first time that you realised that you were

different because like I remember coming to the UK from Botswana in Africa and I was the only black kid in Norway school and there's like there's some day I think I remember specifically a comment that a kid made when the playground which really put into like perspective that I was actually different to them it was something about my hair.

I had a little Jackson 5 Afro going on that I combed out. And from that day onwards, I noticed that I was different. Can you recall a time where you realised that you being taller was made you different?

Yeah, well, I think it's only people with experience like older people that notice anything like that. Isn't it really? I think as kids, we just grow up. Everyone's the same, aren't they? And then it's older kids. So I was always the tallest in my class, but my mum and dad never made a big deal of it to me. I was always taller than everyone else. And then when we started to play football, and then when I started to be good at football,

You would hear things on the sideline at, yeah, but he's a couple of years older or, yeah, he's good, but he's too old. And because you're only judged by your height at that age. So I would hear things from the parents. And then, you know, I'd hear like little remarks, like people laughing, little japes and jibing. And yeah, because like people say, you know, your skinny or your lanky is seen as sort of like you're allowed to say it in some ways. Do you know what I mean? Like,

It's a describing word. But that's how it was for me. But I love it. It feels to me like it's part of me. It's me now. I've always been to all that everyone else. It wasn't as if I just shot up and was different. I was just always ahead of everyone else. And that is a part of me now, which I love.

Richard Osman who came on the podcast was the first person who kind of stunned me into silence because I have to be completely honest. I didn't realize that. Hitism abusing people for being tall was such a sort of consequential.

thing for those people. I was one of the people who didn't realize that someone who's lived their height being very, very tall will be told about it everywhere they go every second and how that can impact someone and how they feel. Honestly, when I remember doing that podcast, I remember sitting there and going, fucking hell, of course. Of course. It'd be like anything else with me. If I had the third arm and everyone said it everywhere I'd go, it would make me subconscious about it.

Exactly right, yeah. And, you know, it's because there's bigger problems everywhere, you know, there's bigger problems, but my problem or, you know, it was, I think it was different, was my height, you know, like I recently, you know, added, did a joke of like all the questions that I was permanently asked. I had a series of cards in my inside pocket to answer every single question that everyone, the people I knew were going to ask me. So it was, what's the weather like up there?

Do you play basketball? How tall are you? Do you sleep in a grow bag? Is the weather different up there? Five questions, but I had all the answers in my inside pocket. So before they even opened their mouth, I could give them a card. And it was just something funny, you know, that changed the subject. But it's amazing how many times. I think it's less so now because people know who I am and know what I'm about. But before

I became well-known. Those questions were just constant. What impact does that have? We joke about it as, you know, now, but what impact does that have on a young man? Well, on an impressionable young teenager, it had a big impact. Me now, you know, it's water for ducks back. You know, it doesn't matter to me. But yeah, as a young lad, it was a little bit different. I remember my dad getting, you know, really angry about it.

Because as a teenager, you're going through things that are a little bit, you're not comfortable within your own skin, are you, as a young lad? So I was the same as everyone else, but I found it difficult times, really difficult, and especially football terraces, like as I got older, and I was playing professionally. And then I started playing in the first team.

And all of a sudden it was like, you know, dealing with, there's one thing dealing with the odd person in the streets and on your tour. And another thing dealing with sort of 30,000 people screaming, like obscenities at you, you know, taking the piss out of the way you look, laughing at you. That was difficult.

when you say difficult, what do you mean? In a practical situation. Because I've read like 14 and 15 years old, you're crying yourself to sleep sometimes because of this and having conversations with your dad about it. Yeah, yeah. I think there was times where I thought to myself, is it worth it? Is it worth going through this? Why am I put myself through this? It's all I've ever loved. It's all I've ever wanted to do.

But if people are going to laugh at me and take the piss out of me, what is the point? Do I want it that much? I was lucky I had a good support network around me. I had good people around me. My dad was great with me. And he was harsh with me at times as well.

he was also really, really good at pulling me back up and sort of giving myself more confidence. And listen, I don't look like your average footballer. And I've known that since I was 10, 11 years old. You know, when I watch football on the TV, I don't see anyone that represented me, really. Like the Toranjay Flowers was potentially one good technique.

There was a couple of players that, but not many. So I thought to myself, maybe I'm just not, I'm not right. Maybe I don't look right. I shouldn't be a player. You know, I had all these things going on in your mind, but ultimately, if, you know, I had the determination and I had the ability to, and I suppose the thick skin, which you have to have to go past it.

You said that there was thoughts in your head of maybe I should, maybe I should quit, maybe I should go do something else. Were those like real considerations you had at some point? Yeah. Oh, without doubt, that was, I'm just, I just think to myself, is it worth it? Like, why, I always remember the game. It was Wes Braun the way I came on and I missed the chance and nobody knew who I was. I was just a kid, you know, I was probably the same height as I am now and probably back.

I was probably about nine stone, nine half stone. I was much skinnier than I am now, I believe it or not. I'm trying to be a Premier League player. People just thought it was absolutely ridiculous. At times, I thought it myself. I thought, I know I've got ability, but I'm looking at these big, strong, developed men. I can't compete with this. I always remember coming on and people were actually laughing at me.

And there was another game away at Gillingham where I just got absolutely abused to the point where, you know, people were shouting freak and does the circus. No, you're here. Like these were the things that people were saying. And my dad was in the crowd. I always remember it. I was walking.

I was walking out at half time of the game and my dad was rolling down the aisle in the Jillingham Inn. I think a fight with someone. I thought, oh my God, this is my first season in professional football. My dad's having a fight. I'm getting absolutely abused. My mum's crying. You know, what am I doing? Why am I putting myself through this? Of course, I love football and that's what I want to be, but is it worth all this?

How do you feel about those people that are shouting like freak at you when you come on the pitch and upset in your family? How do you like think about them and that kind of culture now?

Do you know what, like it'd be easy for me to say here, sit here and go, ah, you know, the brain there, this, the, that, but growing up in a football culture, it was like, I've been there myself on a football terrace where you, you know, and you hear things. My dad used to cover my ears and stuff. I used to go to Chelsea as a kid and I don't know. It's like almost normal. I know it's wrong.

And obviously there's a line. We've seen it recently with racism and there's certain things that go well over the line. But being tall wasn't considered over the line. So it was something that I just decided that was the way football is. Can we change that? Can I change that? I don't think so. So I just got on with it. And how do I think about them now?

Yeah, it was reckless. I think I sat down on a Gilligan fan that was abusing me that day. And I said to you, do you know what? You really like... My mum was crying. I had to have a fight. I was thinking about giving up football. I think you'd say, oh, I'm sorry. I think you would. But I don't think in that moment, he saw us as people. It's like you're a footballer on the pitch and you're not seen as... It's like such tribalism.

that you're just gonna, you have to endure it for, you know, you're well paid, so you have to endure this kind of level of abuse. And I think things are changing. You know, I'd like to think they are. We're trying to help that, but certainly in those days, it was a case of get on with it. Did that put a chip on your shoulder? You know, when you hear those things and you're running onto the pitch and you hear people abusing you or whatever else, or you're aware of that,

that narrative in your head. When you come on, do you think to yourself, I'm gonna fucking show these people. I'm gonna...

Did it give you doubt or did it give you an extra bit of confidence? It's a little bit of both, I think. I didn't know whether I was going to play for England or I was going to be a non-league player and either of them would have been fine. I wasn't on the map to go and play for England. I wasn't Stephen Gerald. I wasn't Michael Owen. I wasn't Wayne Rooney. I had a different path. I wasn't ready for the Premier League till I was 22, 23, probably. So I didn't know where my career was going to go.

Yeah, there were times where I doubted myself, but then I think, you know, I think I scored my first goal and things just changed. And I just, it was the most important moment of my life. And it was against drilling them again, believe it or not. Funny how it comes round. But I, yeah, I just doubled down and I've only this point as at QPR. And I knew then that I'd have a career in football, like,

I didn't know I'd play for Liverpool, I didn't know I'd play for England, but I didn't know what I'd go on to achieve. But I knew then I'd have a career in football, and that was where my confidence grew, and then I thought, nah, nah, nah, I can do this. Your dad, had he was quite tough at times, from what I read. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like really tough, yeah. What does that mean? Whoa.

Yeah, I mean, I think times he probably went a little bit too far, but I wouldn't be sat here having played for England or having played and achieving the things that I've done, achieving my dreams without him being hard on me. Would I go maybe to the lengths at times that he did? Maybe not, but what lengths?

Well, just certain things like, I think the heart, the harshest one was when he obviously left me at, I was at the ball court in Tottenham and I jumped out of a tackle. And his thing was, look, I came from a nice background and a lot of the kids were playing football to survive. So I had to toughen up and that's the truth.

Was I going to go into a tackle like my life depended on it? Like the kids from the estate around Edmonton or East London and probably not at that time. So, you know, when I got up to after the training, you know, if I'd done it, he'd let you go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he left me and I had to get home. I'm bearing in mind I grew up in healing, getting home from why our lane was an overground. Seven sisters talked to the circus, Oxford Circus, Twilling Broadway, and then walked home from there. I was probably about, I was probably 13 and 14. I hadn't been on a tube before. I had, but not on my own. So it was a tough lesson.

Did he tell you he was going? No, I went up there and he was gone. And did you not think I'll give him a call to him? Well, I didn't have a mobile. Yeah, yeah, it was different. And when did you find out it was because you weren't tackling people? Well, I thought I thought it might be. Well, no, I didn't tackle. I think I remember jumping out of one particular tackle for my dad's going to kill me for that.

Do you know what, though? I never jumped out of a tackle again. Like I say, it is a harsh lesson. But I'm not going to sit here and say it wasn't the right lesson. I think it might have been a tad harsh. Would I do that to my son? I'm not sure. I don't, probably not. But I think, potentially, I'm too easy on my kids a bit.

It's a tough lesson to learn, but I think if you want to be a top elite footballer, you need to warn it as much as the next person. And I did warn it, but I had to fight as much as these kids, you know. And they're my friends now, you know, like I've some good lads that

came from tough upbringings that went on to be really good players. You know, Ledley King, I remember, like, Ledley King, Stephen Mills, James Carter, these boys that I met in the ball court, you know, Nikki Hunt, they were tough lads, you know, from, you know, bow in East London, you know, in a state where, like, Ashley Cole grew up, Ledley King grew up, and I ended up playing in the ball court where they grew up, you know, and that's a different kind of environment to where I was playing, you know, but

I think when you can hold your own in there and you can go, you can rough it up, you can fly into tackles. I basically changed my whole personality. When I played football, you know, like I can see it now and I'd like to say that I'm an, I'd like to think that I'm a nice guy. I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy. But on the pitch, I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed. And that was just one lesson. When you got home from

that little football game where you didn't put the tackle or jumped out of the tackle. Did you have a conversation with you about why he left? So he told you why at the end. He said, yeah, listen, there's a few things that like should be remained private. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's just say I was told in non-certain terms to not jump out of my tackle again. And your mum, what was your, her broader influence on you? Yeah, your mum. She was very much like me. Yeah, I think most of my, my traits probably come from my mum. You know, obviously the love of football came from my dad and stuff and, you know, he's very good with me, but my mum was,

was very good with me. And I think her every day about she'd taken me to matches. I remember seeing her. She was the only mum on the side with the Bali when it was lashing down. And she was incredible taking me to places. She was like my shoulder to cry on. She was the person that I would provide in. They're both very, very good. And a big reason why I'm the person I am.

those players from the estate that you played amongst. One of the things I read about in your book was how

you could see how attitude played such an important role and who would make it. Because getting from like the estate to, you know, sort of semi pro level and then getting to the Premier League is a long fucking journey. And there's only a few seats at that top table. So when you think about like why, including yourself, why in terms of mindset and attitude, some of your colleagues and some of your peers made it and didn't make it, what's your answer to that?

Yeah, it's funny, like everyone, every footballer that's played for England or played are played within the Premier League. They've all got a story, all of them. I've got every single one. We'll tell you a story about the player that was better than them that no one knows. There's so many of them out there and it's sad. But for whatever reason, injury, there's lots of temptation as a young football, especially when you're that good.

You know, if you're earning money, you don't know how to handle that money, friends, parties, you know, distractions of all different kinds, you know, actually will, you know, determination, dedication. There's so many factors as long side ability, luck. There's so many factors. But I sometimes think we don't

You know, a lot of the time we look at the negative side of football. But I think sometimes when you see the kids that have come from absolute, I'm talking absolutely nothing, some of these kids who are now playing for England or, you know, and they make mistakes. They make mistakes in the public eye. They make mistakes, high profile mistakes. And everyone goes, ask footballers, you know, that's what, you know, that's what they're like. But like, if you'd have seen what they've come from to playing in a Champions League final,

I think that's a success story. I think sometimes we should celebrate that fact, not kind of for making those mistakes that they've made. And yeah, of course, it depends what kind of mistakes. If it's too big a mistake, obviously you can't condone some things. But some of these players who have come basically with no mum and dad, that someone's picked them up with one particular player, not had any boots.

been thrown on a football pitch and has ended up playing in the Champions League final. But yeah, he's made a mistake so long away. But I think sometimes we should consider that success. Yeah, we don't really have a lot of empathy, do we, when it comes time? No, because it's a highly pre-profession. And sometimes there's a stigma on why these players getting paid so well.

And I get that, there's a lot of money in football, and could it be spent elsewhere on people in the NHS or people who are doing probably much more harder jobs than a footballer, but it is what it is. You can't change it, but I do think, yeah, there is that stigma associated to footballers.

I sat with Tim Grover, who was the guy that trained Michael Jordan and Kobe, and he also trained some Premier League football players now, gives them coaching advice. One of the things he told me was how he seen the pressure of being a high-level Premier League football player completely destroy some players.

And it's something that was the first time I'd kind of heard that, because as a fan, as I've always been, you know, we're all tweeting, we're all having our say, all commenting, we're all at the game shouting in our little mob mentality, whatever. But then we don't really think that all of that pressure, especially on like, as you say, a kid that's come from the estate who's 18 and doesn't have the tools to deal with that pressure, how they can be going home, how it can severely impact their performance and how it can kind of like just cause them to collapse a little bit.

I've got to be honest, I've seen a similar thing in my view with like the mob attacking like someone like Harry Maguire. Rashford had it a lot last year as well, but what's your take on all of that? And have you seen yourself in the dressing room?

Yeah, obviously. I played for England in Nira where it felt like there was a huge pressure. It was the golden generation. The players were the best we've ever had since 66. We had an opportunity to win World Cups. And because we did it, it felt like it was heaped on certain players and that kind of pressure. But when you're talking about Rashford,

and Maguire like I think we're all entitled to criticise players like we put ourselves in that in that position but like what I've seen with certainly Harry Maguire I feel like it goes really too far I think you know it's

It's harsh. It's, you know, I'm just thinking of his family, you know, because I've been in that position. I've been booed for England. I've remember playing at Old Trafford in a game and coming on. And it's the proudest moment you'll ever have in your life. And your home fans are booing you know, I've been in that situation. And it feels like Harry Maguire is going through, you know, what seems to be a prolonged period of this. And yeah, regardless of form, I think some of the social media stuff I see, you know, ridiculing,

I think he's having a difficult time as a player, but I think some of the criticism goes beyond criticism. It becomes too harsh, in my opinion. Having been in a situation where you've been booed by the fans of the club you're playing for,

What does that do to you? What did it do to you when you came up? Was it for England? Yeah, well, that's devastating. Yeah, I'm playing for England. It might be an element of the fact I was my Liverpool player. I'm an old trafficked. Obviously, a lot of my new life fans.

But it was during the course of when I wasn't scoring for Liverpool, then I was having a real tough time anyway. I had 18 games or I didn't score for Liverpool. And the fact that it goes back to, I felt like with England, I had to be superhuman. It goes back to the thing where, because I looked different a bit, I wasn't seen as one England striker should look like. And I think that was genuinely a thing.

But I then, I'm so proud to represent my country, but I've got my sister, my mom, and my dad, all friends in the crowd, and everyone's excited. They're all talking to me before the game about me potentially coming on and making an appearance, getting a cap, and then you come on and get booted by 70,000. Have your own friends? So what I'm saying is don't ever feel sorry for footballers. Don't have to, we expect that.

My family, like my mom, was in bits. The proudest moment of my life has sort of been taken away because of that. We put ourselves in the position. I'm not going to sit here and cry about it. It's just disappointing for my family more than anything.

What happens when the whistle blows the game ends on days like that? You're going back and see your family. Is there a bit of an awkwardness to it? A bit of embarrassment, you know, because you want to be the one who comes down with the champagne in your hands, you know, and everyone claps you in and your family gives you a big hug, you know, and most of the lads did that. You know, they've got a shirt, they've got a cap. Like, I'm calm. I come down to the players lounge after and I'm a bit sheepish and like,

Sorry about that, Mav. You know, it's like you're apologizing for doing the thing that you've worked so hard to do your whole life. So that is that's difficult. Dealing with the

the family side of it, because I know what I've done. I've put myself in a position to be shot at. I'm sure you feel the same, you know, doing this podcast, whatever you do, that's, you know, you put yourself in a position to be shot at, but your mama hasn't, you know, she doesn't, she doesn't need to hear that and it killed her a bit. It's funny is that when you, when you put yourself in a position to be shot at, it's really like that phrase. And then, you know, you get shot at,

your family try and stand in the way of the bullets to some degree. And it's like, no, no, no, please don't send me the articles. Please don't tell me your thoughts on it and WhatsApp. I don't need to persuade you out of this situation and sort of counsel you on why these people are saying this about me. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with, like,

You know, do you just part the guard and pretend it's not happening? It depends on the issue, but I mean, I'd probably get canceled once I recorded for something I've said on this podcast was whatever. Dragon's down sometimes because of the way it's edited. It can make it seem like I said something I didn't say or whatever. So my friends know not to send me articles. Just assume I've seen it. I don't need my best makeup. Have you seen this? This is something that happened like early on in my career. And I was like, no, don't stop all that. Like, I'm not, but I'm not reading you. I don't watch much of the day if I haven't scored.

That's the way I deal with it. He's like, you know, that doesn't exist. Yeah, yeah. When I do something good, I'm like, this is the playlist. Be very selective in what you watch or listen to. But was there a moment in your career where you said, I'm not going to read the newspapers anymore. I'm not going to watch the tally. I'm just going to. Yeah. Was that Liverpool face? Oh, God, yeah. That Liverpool face was like radio silent. I was gone. I was relaxed the thing. Like everyone's the problem with now. I could stop.

buying a newspaper, I can stop watching Telly, I can do other things, you know, I can do, but nobody can live without their phone now. And this is the problem, like, for young footballers that are worried about it, because no one can put their phone down, no one can.

So, any football is the same, especially a young player. You pick up your phone for it, right, I've got what's on the diary, I've got a text message. Then you find yourself on Instagram, on Twitter, or on whatever you're on. And you can't get away from it. And no matter what the players tell you, whatever they are, don't listen to it. They do. They do. You can't get away from it.

what what it is now with the phones you can't everyone's got one and everyone's looking with me to get through that yeah I didn't I didn't watch I was getting ridiculed that time where I didn't score for Liverpool was

such a hard time, like for me, I always just went to hide away in a dark room until I scored, basically. So I don't know what I would do if I was hiding away in a dark room with a mobile phone. You might as well just not go out and face it all because it's a lot harsher on the

on the phone than it is when you see people in person. If I was in your, so you sign for Liverpool and then you go 18 games without scoring, 18 appearances, right? Without scoring. If I was in your household at that time, if I was behind the scenes in your camp, what would I actually, what would I have seen?

Or someone who's depressed, I suppose. I mean, outwardly, outwardly not. I've never been that person to sort of, to wallow in it, you know. I've always been the sort of, I suppose, a bubbly character. Obviously, the positive in everything. But at that time, like, it felt like I was getting ridiculed and it was really tough. I had to sort of fight my way through it.

What was so amazing was the Liverpool fans slapped with me. And that's something that I'll never forget because I swear to you, any club in the world, having just won the Champions League in one of the best finals we've ever seen in East Amball in 2005, they signed me, right? I turn up and I don't score for 18 games, right? I don't think there's a club, a top club in the world that tolerates that as a fan base, apart from Liverpool fans.

And they stopped by me and it was like a siege mentality. It was like everyone else is attacking him, but he's one of ours and we're with him. And it felt like every time I played it, they were willingly to score. And when I eventually did, you can see the footage of it, the camera is shaking. And like, it's like we've won a European Cup final, like people won't be to score that much.

And I'm thankful to this day that they did stick with me, because I managed to turn it round after that. And it was a special moment, a special club. I was reading in that phase, you were turning to drink more than you should have been a little bit after games and stuff.

Yeah, because my dad, you know, to be fair to him would say to me, you know, I'd be like, no, I'm not going out. And he'd be like, you're going out. Like, he'd make me go out after games. I'd be like, I don't want to do that. People laughing at me. But he dragged me out. We'd have a few beers. Like, it wasn't as if I was drinking at home on my own. It wasn't like a dark kind of thing. It was, he was making, he was dragging me out and he was making me have a few drinks.

And then I realised actually no one... Cos I've built it up, everyone's laughing at me. It's my world that's...

You know, not actually no one really cares. You know, they might have a laugh at you on a Saturday, but they're going back to their own lives. You know, I feel like it's everyone's laughing at me all times. You know, you build these things up in your head and they're never as bad as you think they are. So his way of dealing with it, you know, with me was to take me out for a beer. And yeah, I probably did drink a little bit more than I should do as a, as a Premier League player, but I needed to at that time. And you, you, you bounce between what? Six clubs before the age of 25.

Yeah. Six. Yeah. That's a lot of moving. It's a lot of moving around, yeah. But I classed that as... Like, if I'm at Liverpool, or, you know, you're starting to manage tonight, or Chelsea, you know, buying Munich, Real Madrid, you don't have to move anywhere if you play, indeed. You don't have to. The course of my career was very different to anyone else's course of my career. And those moves that I had were, QPR was at a chance to showcase my talent. You know, I did very well. The club went into administration, I went to Portsmouth.

And they bought me for like a record fee. I then did really, really well in a championship and got a move to Aston Villa in a Premier League. You know, I felt like my dream had arrived.

And then it didn't quite work out. I wasn't ready for the Premier League. I always remember why debut was against Newcastle and Alan Shearer was up the other end of the pitch. And I was at this end of the pitch, obviously the opposite striker. And I thought, if that's what I need to be a Premier League player, I'm not one. I'm not one because he was so good. And I just thought, maybe I'm a championship player.

So I ended up having to move again to Southampton to get games and then things took off. So like all my moves were like...

for a reason for a club point of view or for a financial thing for the club or for me having to go out and get football or for me to progress as a player. So I would have loved nothing more than to stay at one club for my whole life. But that wasn't my journey. You moved from Liverpool to Spurs. How would you sort of summarize your time at Spurs?

I absolutely loved it because I started at Spurs as a young star and I played in that ball court while I had a lane and I tried to play in a youth team and I was in the reserves and me and Ledley King came through together. Ledley was there and I went throughout all this whole journey of Liverpool, England, QPR, Portsmouth, Southampton on Norwich on loan, Dalich Hamlet on loan.

And I came back to Tottenham, and Leidley was in the same place I left him in. Which was amazing. I never got to play in the first team for Tottenham. I'd come through there in the youth team. I had so many players ahead of me. I wasn't ready. So, when I come back for £10 million and I'd already played in the Champions League final, I played in the World Cup.

I'd achieve things that nobody in that Tottenham dressing room at the time would say I would achieve. I wasn't even good enough to play in their first team, which is correct at the time. So to come back, it felt like I unfinished business, if you like. So then when I scored some important goals for Spurs and we got into the Champions League for the first time and we had good success, that felt like it was almost like a coming home, if you like.

And that ended a little bit too abruptly, if you were liking. A bit, yeah, it did. I liked it, Spurs. It was funny, because it was deadline day. And Harry Redknap was talking about bringing manual and biore in. And it's funny how it works for a footballer, but I went to work, call it work, for now. I left Abby and the kids, and I said,

I'll see you this afternoon. And then this afternoon never came. I never came home. And I'll just give a call so we live in Stoke now. It's the life of all up. I was happy to have a two-year contract left at Tottenham.

But I was just, you know, bid came in of £10 million for a 30-year-old. And I could understand from a club's perspective that they wanted to accept the offer. They wanted to bring out a buy-or-in. And I spoke to Harry and he said, obviously, yeah, we do want to bring out a buy-or-in. But Daniel Levy wants to accept this bid.

Obviously, I wasn't happy about it. I was happy where I was. I was at a great club and I wanted to stay. But certain bits and pieces happened and I said to have, we're on the move.

How does Daniel, he's a figure that's talked about a lot. He's been quite a tough guy. He does very, what's the word? Tough business. That's what I hear a lot. Well, listen, this is, you know, it's die over CEO, right? If I was running a football club, I'd probably have him in charge. Really? Yeah. He's a harsh businessman, right?

He's looking after a billion-pound asset. He's not necessarily the owner, but he's running it like it's his own. I think I understand that. The bid of $10 million came in for me. I'm an asset to the business, and I know I'm a person. But if you look at it purely from a business perspective,

I'm a depreciating asset at 30 years old, potentially. I went on to 38 to be fair, but in his eyes, maybe. Wilson Palacios was another six million to go. It's got 16 million they're getting for. It's good money. It's good business, potentially. But you know, I'm not, I'm not stupid either. So I had two years left on my deal and you must have had his impact over. Well, if you think about it, he's getting 16 million, right?

It's not like, I don't know what he's getting. I'm entitled to see someone out if you want me to leave. Unless I think getting that much, obviously. I did OK. And it worked out for both of us. But I don't think there's many people that come out of maybe an incident like that with Daniel Levy and come out

smiling because he is harsh. But like I say, I had my running with him and there were times where I said, no, it's OK. I'm happy. I'll see you in the morning. I'm happy at Tottenham. I was comfortable there.

And I just said, I see in the morning and, you know, I suppose you've got to be prepared to hang out at the phone and say, say that. And then he kept coming back and telling me that I wouldn't get a scored number or I wouldn't. I'll be training with the kids, trying to make my life difficult. And I was like, no problem. What was that initial conversation he calls you in and says, you're off. Do they not say, I'm interested in the world of football, like, because in the world I'm from, in business,

There's a high degree of empathy. It's a very, you know, conversation, it's performance reviews. It's very, but we don't have an impending deadline day either. So I'm just trying to figure out if it's like a go get your stuff, you're off or if it's a. But I think I think it would be different if you did have a deadline day, you know?

right? People will get stuff done on that. So I think, you know, that rushes people obviously, but yeah, definitely you're seeing like there's this this this whole thing about a player should show loyalty and

But there's also works both ways. Clubs at times, if you aren't performing or you're maybe having issues or problems off the field, sometimes that side of it doesn't get shown as well when the club will quite happily get rid of you.

So, yeah, it works both ways. Unfortunately, the business that they're in is fine selling players and winning football matches. It is a ruthless industry. But I went into that. I've realised that very quickly, to be quite honest. But I went into that with open eyes. Do you regret leaving Liverpool?

Yeah, I do a bit. I had a great time at Portsmouth though, and some of those memories were stating me forever. But leaving Liverpool is a difficult thing to do. And I was playing for England at the time, and I was loving playing for England. I was playing well, and I just thought we signed for Lando Torres.

I'm pragmatic. I understand my role, if you know what I mean, as a player. He was better than me. Right. So what do I do now? He's always going to play. He formed a great partnership with Stephen Gerard. It's on absolute fire. I still believe myself. I still believe I can play for England. I'm still a very good player. I'm just not on Torres' level. So I think he's not, he just wasn't getting injured the whole time I was there. And then, you know, I'd left and then he was sold quite quickly to Chelsea.

And I saw players obviously that were playing. Maybe Carol. Yeah, I mean, you know, Andy Carol, you know, there was Warren and GOG players that I felt that, you know, basically I felt like I could have played. But having said that, I'll never look back. I've not looked back on any of my people even say to me now, like, do you miss football? No, I don't miss football. That was a time that I had that was the best.

And I look back with such fond memories of it, saying at Liverpool, I don't think, ah, should have played there for 10 years. It would have been nice, but it was that I still cherish the moments that I had with Liverpool. And also the people, I met some great people at Portsmouth and it's such a good club.

And that was just off the back of winning the FA Cup, and I really thought we'd get into the Champions League. Our team was that good. So it gave me the opportunity to play and to enjoy my football and to carry on playing for England. So do I regret it? It's the one thing I look back on and think, could I have stayed? And could I have been at a top, top club for longer? But I love my time at Portsmouth as well.

You mentioned Gerard there, and I've seen you talk about Lampard and Beckham and Gerard and Carragher. What was it that made those individuals great in your view? What did you see? I saw something in like in those players that

that was slightly different to me. I enjoyed what I was doing. I looked at the top-top level players that I played with, and they never looked like they enjoyed it, ever. Yeah, Gerard, Carriga, I'd class in that John Terry Lampard.

It was always the next game, you know, and I think that's the top level mentality you need to have. For me, at times, I'd go, we've won this, like, let's enjoy this one a little bit, because we had a massive game on Tuesday. They would already be thinking about, yeah, that was good, but it's about the next one. It's always about the next one. And I admire that in people. And I had a stealing mentality, but I also thought,

what are we doing it for? Yeah, of course it's about winning trophies, but also it's about this moment. We've just won a huge game in the last minute. Let's celebrate this moment and deal with tomorrow, tomorrow, whereas sometimes the top-level players. Like Stephen Gerald, prime example of that. Just a constant

It looked like there was no enjoyment. Obviously there was enjoyment at times, but it felt like it was just the next game was more important than enjoying this one. And yeah, of course it was, but I was always a little bit like, can I just enjoy this one a little bit?

which is, you know, I think separates the... I'd class myself as an elite sportsman. I played at the top level, but I'm talking top-top, and that's why they're who they are. Were they intense? Some intense, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's what... But I think that's what separates people, isn't it? I think...

You know, you've got to want to sacrifice everything. And, you know, I did when I was when I was younger and I did throughout my career. But what I'm saying is that it's that 0.5% that 1% difference of I've just already thinking about the next game of, you know, managers do it. And as players, sometimes

We, of course, enjoy that win and think about the next game when it comes. But the top-level players that I've played with, like you say, Lampard, John Surrey, Steven Giroard, Jamie Carrigo, I've put in that, you know, the Dominion United boys, like the consistent winners are the ones that I think look like they don't enjoy it. And because they are constantly battling for the next thing,

Well, I've read that you said some players couldn't deal with the intensity of a Stephen Gerard and a character, and that you also were much more orientated to try and please them than the manager, which I think was rougher at the time. Yeah, that's right. You were trying to please more concerned with pleasing character and Gerard, who were the club captain, captain, whatever of the team than the manager. Yeah, that's true. I'm trying to put myself into the changing room and understand why that is. What were they doing?

They're local boys, right? They're legends at the club. When I think of Liverpool, I think of Stephen Gerard and Jamie Carriga, like Raffa Benitez, I suppose, was a top manager and he signed me and I got only good words to say about him.

Steve and Joe are the absolute legends of the club and quite ruthless in there and quite harsh in their appraisal of some players. So I found myself in constantly seeking their approval and my training was... I always remember the first training session when Steve wrapped a ball into my feet and I'm a missed control one. And it's like a one look would be

You know, you don't do that here. You're livable now. One bad touch is tolerated here. So it's only a look, but it was enough to make me not do that again. You know, that kind of standards are different. And I think you get that from certain players like Steven and Jamie. Would they go individuals in the church room? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's their club, you know? And I think some people didn't understand that

the level of passion that they had for the club. And like, there's players that, on, you know, everyone's different, like, you'll know only so well, like...

in a place of work, there's no two characters to say. So you even need to know what makes people tick. And some people couldn't understand the level of passion that they had for the club, of standards that they had. They might have come from a more relaxed club,

Unfortunately, if you want to play for Liverpool, you have to have a certain way about you and a certain standard. And if you've all ballooned it below that standard, then players like Steven and Jamie would tell you very quickly. In front of everyone. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've seen players be signed and be written off in one training session, you know. Really? 50 million pound players coming in and like, he's shit. Really? Well, I never like... I mean, that was...

You wouldn't get many chances. But then I've also seen players be written off and then come back, which obviously in their eyes would make them a good fit for Liverpool. What do you think of Liverpool right now? I've got the new Nunez guy coming. Yeah, I like Nunez. I think he's a bit

I think it's going to take in time to settle in. I don't think we've seen the best of them yet, but as a club, what Jürgen Klopp's done there, I think. I look at young kids now who just expect Liverpool to win the Champions League or win the Leagues. It's been 30 odd years before. It was a long time and Jürgen Klopp's just changed the DNA back into

you know, where they were in the 80s. I mean, it's that good. And yeah, they're struggling a little bit now. But what is done for that football club has been nothing short of incredible. And, you know, we had some great players at my time at the club, but, you know, what they've done as a group has surpassed anything that, you know, that that spell I had has done. Jürgen Raffa, how many managers did you work under in your time?

Um, God, with lows over the, uh, almost 10. God, that's probably more than that. Probably more than that. For you from working with more than 10 footballing managers at varying different levels and also at the very, very top of international and Premier League football, what made a really good manager?

I think there's lots of ways to manage and, you know, I did my coaching badges just before I retired and you try and use a little bit of the good stuff out of everyone, but, you know, obviously, Rafa very tactically. Harry Rednap was a great people person, you know, like he understood people and what they wanted and he made it a nice sort of environment. You know, Sven the same was so relaxed, you know, in a pressured environment when you were going into a World Cup,

It just does spin out that aura of calmness around you, which you needed. So yeah, great managers that I've had along the way, but very, very different qualities in all of them.

What about the opposite? What was the instances where you thought that's not good management? Well, it was certain things like, you know, with Raffroft, there was a tendency to be too intricate, to be too methodical, too precise at times. If you could mix a little bit of Raffro and a bit of Harry together, you'd have the perfect manager because

With Rafa, it was like we're playing Wolves at home, and we've got Stephen Giro, Javi Alonso, Fernando Torres. We've got the best back four in the league at the moment, and one of the best goalkeepers. Just go and beat them. I don't think it's that difficult. I don't think you have to play with a couple of holding midfield players, and you have to have what we do if we don't have to go and beat them. We're at Anfield. Let's go and express ourselves. And that was my only criticism, you know, like that.

that I could have. I think there was too many times where we were thinking about your position instead of then we're Liverpool. Let's go out and battle them. Who was the best manager you played for?

There's so many reasons for each of my own. Jerry Francis gave me my debut. Graham Ricks was a big influence on my career. His good qualities of Sven, I thought Raffa at times was incredible in some of the work that he did, some of the sessions, and some of the things tactically were really eye opening. But Harry Redknap was, I don't think I'll be sitting here without him.

just because he understood football, he understood a player, and he understood how to get the best out of you. And I think he got the best out of me, certainly at Portsmouth, you know, at Southampton. At Southampton, I was struggling. I thought I've just had a horrible time at Aston Villa.

This is my time in the Premier League, and it's not going well. I'm not playing. The manager leaves. Harry comes in and he goes, you know, this is my last chance saloon. And I'm thinking, right, well, maybe I'm just a championship player. Harry comes in. It just changes like that. He says, you and Kevin Fett, this will be my front two for the rest of the season. Your score is enough goals for us to stay up and just that confidence, that belief and like,

I suppose I felt my height for the first time that season. And I went out and scored 16 goals. I think after Christmas, I was on absolute fire, got in the England squad and moved to Liverpool at the end of the year. So that little spell of six months was crucial to my development as a player, as a person. And would I be sitting here without that? You know, there's lots of

things you look at, you know, would I be, would I be here without that, without that? And there's lots of really key important moments. And that was definitely one of them. How are you coming in? It's crazy how much is like someone believing in you at some point, when maybe you don't believe in yourself can have such a huge impact on how you behave and then ultimately what results you get. Yeah, if you're getting told that you're, you know, you're this and you're that, you're no good, you're, I don't think you have to be a real strong character to be able to cope with that.

And when someone comes in and goes, actually, no, you're doing great stuff. It lifts you. It makes you feel better. And that's the way I would manage. And that's the way I think you have to manage these days. I think players are different to how I was coming through. It was very much quite harsh industry. And I think now players are a bit more. You have to be a bit more of an arm around the shoulder guy.

you know, crack the whip kind of manager. When I sat here with like Patrice and Patrice Everett, Gary Neville, real Ferdinand, they all say the same thing about Sir Alex. The first comment they'll make when you ask why he was so good, they all say man of management. And they tell the story of how he was kind of this bespoke, almost like a unique shaped jigsaw piece for each person. So for Nanny,

He was one, Sir Alex Ferguson. And for Gary Neville, he was a different shape because he understood everybody and understood which blurts to praise, how hard he could press to get the best out of them. And we tend to think of management as being one thing, like being one person to everybody. But even from what you've said there and what they've told me, it seems that great management is being like a bit of a shape shifter depending on who you're dealing with.

I think that is exactly right. I think you've hit the nail in the head there and the boys that you talk about there, it's spot on because you can't treat everyone the same way. You can't even train the same way. If you're telling all the players to go in the gym and do a certain weight or be a certain

speed. Everyone is different. Everyone's a different character. Everyone's a different mould as a player. You know, certain players, you couldn't, like, Canton are, for instance. You talk about Cyrillic Ferguson. You know, not many players could handle Canton are. Alex Ferguson got the best out of Canton are because he treated him different to how he would treat Gary Neville. And it's not

It's not rocket science, but it's a quality that not many people have. They're not able to adapt. It's like, this is my management style. Everyone has to fall in line with it. I don't think, as a manager, that is the best way to go about things. It's about adapting to

to people that you might need to speak to on a regular basis, certain people you might need to tell, you know, some home truths, certain people that you might need to, you know, constantly get into the office or, you know, let someone else deal with him potentially, you know, you might spot a problem that it might have off the field that needs addressing, you know, there's so many factors to being a manager. And I think Alex Ferguson was wise proven to be the best at that.

Reminds me of watching a Netflix documentary about Michael Jordan and called The Last Dance. Brilliant. Brilliant fucking. I changed my life now. I think I got like a Michael Jordan thing upstairs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I always, you know, when people ask me if I was a basketball player, I actually wanted to be there.

It was not a phenomenal documentary, yeah. Change really, really change. I'll be honest, and people will be surprised to hear this. I understood that Michael Jordan made shoes, but I didn't really know who he was before then. And when I watched that, it was one of those ones where you put it on and you watched the whole thing in one sitting. I was, it changed my life. You're younger than me.

I remember him clear as day playing with the Bulls. Yeah. I mean, he, I think, is the greatest sportsman that's ever been. It's a controversial statement. You know, there's so many sportsman out there, but what Michael Jordan did was, was, was unbelievable. And that like, I love that kind of mentality going into that mentality of like winning at all costs and watching that balls team, because it wasn't just Jordan, like that that whole, that whole team was, was special.

That's what I was going to say, like Dennis Rodman, he was a character where, which sounds much like Cantonara in a way where he would go on benders for a couple of days and manage to go listen. That's Dennis. That's Dennis. That's Dennis. I honestly don't like it. And I won everything. But exactly, but that's what I'm saying. You're like, could you Dennis was a huge part defensively of that set up with the balls?

And, uh, if you didn't have him, if you didn't, and I know letting him, I think this is obviously that, you know, that probably too far, but let him go to Vegas for a couple of weeks, at least you get Dennis back for those games at the end that are important. And I think it's obviously ridiculous for him to do that, but that was his, in his makeup, that was in his DNA. And, you know, is it, is it better for you to let him go to arrival or do you, did you accept that and win the,

when the titles they did. All the great managers, like the ones we've talked about, seemed to have instances where they were okay to make an exception. I guess the risk is what message does that send to the other players? It's almost a bit of an unfairness. If Cantonard, Dennis Robman or whoever can go and do that, yet you're having me fucking show up every day and you're pressing me in a different way, that's not fair.

Well, yeah, I totally agree with you. But I don't know if the boys told this story last time, but, you know, a story of Ryan Giggs when he turned up for a team event and he's got no tie on. And Eric Canton, I walked in with no tie on a pair of trainers. And Alex Ferguson is obviously absolutely, you know, cained Ryan Giggs and told him to go home and get a tie on. Like, who do you think you are? Eric walks in, sits down, doesn't say a word. Really? Yeah, because

I think Ryan Giggs was just capable of winning a football match. But where this does fall down is when those players stop performing. And I've seen that. I've seen players get treated differently. And that's fine until they're not Eric Cantonar. They're not Michael Jordan. They're not Tiger Woods. They're not constantly winning games for you. Because if you set yourself up like that,

You better perform. And not quite often they can because they're top players, but you are creating a problem for yourself, I think, if you don't consistently deliver. But maybe that's the reason they do consistently deliver because they are wired up differently to a lot of the rest of us. Which kind of makes me think about Ronaldo.

and what happened the other week with him storming down the tunnel, et cetera, et cetera. Now me and my friends in our group chat, we all have kind of different points of view on it. You know, people are saying, well, sorry, Alex, we'll let them do that this whatever, whatever, whatever. As someone that's been inside the changing room and probably seen moments where a certain player was being disruptive,

What was your read on that situation and the impact of it? In all honesty, it's nothing new. I think it's because it's renowned, though, it's a huge story. But I've seen over the course of my career, players who aren't playing, call it thrown a toys out the pram, being disruptive, letting their feelings be known that they're not happy with the situation.

And as players, it's constantly happening. So you don't worry because it's renowned. It's blown out proportion. I've seen it many times. I've seen it with a particular player. We're playing a preseason match. He just walked off the pitch while we're playing.

You know, this is absolutely ridiculous. He's literally walked here without a 10 men. And I won't even notice he'd gone for the first couple of minutes. And just, yeah, just just just fuming. But my take on the situation is I think it's disrespectful to the players that are playing still. They've just won or just they were winning at the time. I think

It was something that you probably regret, and I think it's something that the manager dealt with, and I think dealt with well. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, because I remember you saying that good managers that you've worked with could keep the respect, and that being a keyword respect. Now, if he doesn't deal with that properly,

without doubt. I mean, listen, players are on every little moment. Like, if you don't know the answer to a particular question, lie, and lie well, because players will, if they sense an element of you've been unsure about a situation, they'll pounce on it. You're talking about a manager. I'm talking about managers. Players, if you're a manager and you don't have control of the dressing room all times, it's hard to come back from that. Like, you need to command respect, and it's a harsh industry.

players with egos and trying to manage players that aren't playing with those egos is a tough thing to do. And when you've got someone of the stature of Ronaldo, like managing him not playing in the dressing room is a difficult thing to do. You know, put yourself in 10 hard shoes. It's a it's a situation where the club of I think I believe told him he has to stay because they want to play him. Now he's not playing and the window shot.

How do you deal with that problem? It's going to be a huge issue. But I felt he dealt with it well. I think the club potentially didn't deal very well. If he wasn't going to play, they should have sold him. But they're now in that situation where, yeah, he's done that. He's been fined, I assume, and he's been dropped for the next squad.

but it looks like he's potentially getting back in. And that is what is the best situation for the club because you don't want Ronaldo training with the kids away from the first team. You want him in and around it because he'll be an asset potentially at the end of games or to start some games. I'm really compelled by that point you made about as a manager, if you don't know the answer.

to maybe a strategic thing, you're better off just lying than losing the control of the room. Well, if you're in your industry, if your own employee of yours asks you, what should we do here? I don't know if it's as cutthroat as football,

I think it's better to have an answer than to say you don't know. Even if you don't know, because it's giving them confidence. Even if you don't know, you say, we're looking into that, we've worked on that. That's something that we just make. The moment you say you don't know, I think there's an element of

He hasn't got a clue. Basically, yeah, I think. And I think it was Guadiolo who said it. These wise words didn't come from me personally. They were Guadiolo's words. And I think it was something to do with if someone asked you a question, you have an answer for them. Even if you don't know it, you'll go do your homework and come back to that question because you need to be seen as a level above.

the players. You need to have, you know, you need to be more clued up. You need to have more intricate details on the opposition. You need to know about football more than the players do. So they have that respect for you. Was there ever times you know you talked about losing the dressing room?

No, I hear that on like, from pundits. I hear maybe it's lost a dressing room. You sometimes hear that from like other commentators online. But I wondered if that's an actual thing that happens that you've observed where you go. Man, I just fucking lost this now. Players start questioning him. You know, behind his back or? Yeah, I think, I think you can see it. When did you see it?

I've seen it at certain times. I don't think it'd be fair for me to say names. But I have seen it in certain dresser rooms where a manager has lost it a little bit. We had a situation at Stoke where we had probably the best dresser room I've ever been a part of. And then we added sort of some more talented players, more than sort of hard working, honest players, if you like. And for a spell, we had a really good mix.

of that real quality and that kind of determination and spirit. And then it went too far the other way. It was almost too much quality and not enough effort, determination, team spirit, ethics, standards. They slipped. And I've seen things that I'd never seen before.

I talked about the player walking off the pitch that happened in that in that season. And it culminated in in relegation, you know, so when you talk about loss of the dressing room, I didn't service it. I class myself in that in that scenario because I was more of a I was an older player then. And maybe I let things go.

things go a bit as well. You know, like, not my standards personally didn't drop, but I let people get away with things when I was an older player. Like, I should have been the Stephen Gerard in this situation. You know, I should have been a player that flagged it up, maybe. That wrangles with me like I let things go. I know it wasn't my job to do that, but I was an experienced player.

When you say you've not seen, you saw things you hadn't seen before. It kind of reminded me somewhat of what I remember Rea saying about when he moved to, I think it was QPR from Manchester United and he saw just a completely different dressing room culture.

Yeah, exactly right. Well, let's ask our friends that we are speaking to him about that time. It feels similar. It feels similar in some ways. Like you have too many doing what they want, you know, just being late or

little things like that, like being on the training pitch, being late for games, not wearing the right suit or not wearing the right tracksuit together, whatever they want, wearing caps when you're not supposed to. Just little things like that would make you become lax, like, and we might go a goal down, two goals down, and you can see players sort of

you know, waving their arms around and not tracking back. And I remember asking a particular player, like, you stop trying, you stop working. And he said, yeah, that's it. What? And he said, I did, yeah. I said, why? He said, we have three down. I couldn't believe it. You know, it's 30,000 people in a stadium, right, that pay to watch us play and you've given up.

And I know it's horrible, those games, they're horrible, you just, by the least you've got to just run round. And that's when I knew we were in big trouble. It's funny that it's the small things. Like just wearing... They will add up. Yeah. They will add up. Does that not start with a manager, though, in those situations where the manager's just not calling it out enough, he's not punishing, you know, he lets one thing slide, lets two things slide, before you know it, you're at the bottom of the fucking slope.

Yeah, that was exactly what happened. There were certain things that were let go and you're like, well, then you feel like you can get away with more, with more, with more. And there was a certain thing where you'd have to run after a game if you didn't play. So at that time, like I was 37 years old, you know, sometimes I was on the bench and I'd be out there running. And, you know, there was a younger player not

not out after the game doing his fitness work. And I came in. I'm like, what's going on? You know, why? Why am I 37? I'm out here running after a game. And this 25 year old is not, which I didn't want to. He didn't want to. Didn't want to. Right. So these are the standards I'm talking about. So you've got to. That's that's you've been asked to do it. You don't pick and choose whether you do it or not. But that was allowed to happen. Anyway, it happened again.

Anyway, this particular player said, right, because he hasn't run after the game, we're all in on Sunday. So the whole team coming on Sunday, we were coming. This is supposed to be our day off. So we're all in training. And the particular player,

didn't turn up for training, right? So we're all in because of him, and he doesn't turn up. So, I mean, you can imagine what the lads are like, but just little, I'll say little things. I mean, that was a big thing, but just standard slip in and listen, you know, it all ends, everyone knows where it ends, ends badly.

When did you decide that your football career was over? Tell me about that decision and that time in your life. Yeah, I was lucky. I got the opportunity to get out of that dresser room that I was in at Stoke, which was difficult. And I got the opportunity to play for the exact opposite of Burnley and I finished in the Premier League. And I knew that I was done that season because I was on the bench a lot and there was players playing ahead of me that I knew should have been ahead of me and my thoughts were self.

I am just a plan being out. I'm coming on the end of games and I still felt fit. I still felt I could have an impact, but I knew inside my own head. So I told my family, I told, you know, I told happy and I told the kids are still very young.

And we all went to the game, so they didn't all come on, you know, a young baby, you know, they didn't often come to the games now, I didn't play much. So they all came and it was nice because I knew, no one else knew, but I knew that it was my last game of football against Arsenal at Burnley. And all the family came on and, you know, when he walked around the pitch at the end and I've got a picture at home on the wall of me and it was three kids, we had a time at four now, I believe, whatnot.

but the three of us on the pitch and a lovely picture of me walking out to my last game of professional football must have played you know six hundred seven hundred games it's my last game I knew it but no one else did but yeah lovely pitch a lovely moment and then it just sort of comes flooding in that it's it's over 20 years I played I left scored 16 I retired at 38

22 years every day of my life doing something that you loved. I looked back on it with such fond memories. I was so lucky to have played in an era that was full of great players. I managed to play for England and I probably exceeded what I thought I could ever achieve. So always look back on it fondly when people ask me, do you miss it? No, I don't miss it. I cherish the moments that I had.

And you were down there that day? No, you played a huge role, right? Yeah, and that was there that day, yeah. And, you know, he was the one, because he was there every single, I don't think he missed the game. And he was part of my superstition, bizarrely. He was part of, you know, if I didn't see him before a game, I feel unnerved, you know, like, I'd feel like, where is he? And don't get me wrong, there were times where I was on the bench towards the end and he got a season to get a QPR.

and deservedly so, you know, I didn't want to put him through that. But it was, yeah, I mean, he was with me every step of the way. He came through every game. Yeah, I mean, I don't think you miss many handful, you know, of those 600, 700 right from when I was a kid. So yeah, it was like a comfort blanket when I sort of, and he would watch me, not even a kickoff, he would watch me, he'd be the first in the stadium. I would walk out at before the warm up,

And I'd see him, and I'd always see him, you know, six or five, I'd always be able to see him. And he'd give me a little wave, and he'd watch how warmed up. And then after the game, he'd even say, like, I knew you'd have a good game in the warm-up, because he'd always watched even the warm-up. So, yeah. When your career ended, did you ever have a conversation with him about your journey in football? I guess? Was there ever, like, any conclusive conversations about how it all went? Yeah, you know what?

We had sort of like a bit of a retirement video, if you like, and I've got together a load of ex-players and managers that I played with, which was nice and made it, put it on a big screen. But I don't think I've ever sat down and discussed at length my career. I mean, life's too busy, isn't it? I look at, I've got a wall like you have and a few sort of accolades, match balls, ignorant caps on the wall. Only one particular room only allowed like a little dungeon room.

But I've got there on the wall and I look back and I look at some pictures on there and I look at the moments and I think like they were some great times. But like the same life moves quick and I love what I'm doing now and I've gone straight into doing other things and I was very conscious of that. Like I planned a little bit of that, you know. I planned while I was still playing, I did the podcast and I did the first book that I did.

And I did my coaching badges as well. So my coach, I thought, you know, maybe I'll be a manager, I didn't know. But I just basically, I was so scared of waking up on that Monday because every player that I've ever played with just says to me, like, when you're retired, like you've forgotten like that, you, it's difficult, it's hard to get your head around it, keep playing as long as you can. You always hear these horror stories. So I was so worried about it.

I just thought, right, I need to do everything now before I retire. And I think it was the best thing I ever did was to do things while I was still playing, to test things out and see what I want to go into and start building that bridge, I guess. A little bit, yeah, to the other side, if you like. And like I say, the book and the podcast just went bang. And that I just got propelled into a world in the media, really.

Was there ever a moment when you're after you'd retired where you had a bit of a down day? And you thought, you know, because I remember reading, I think in your book where you talk about how you spend those 20 years, like everything sorted for you, your schedule sort of, you know, where you're going to be, you kind of know there's so much structure in your life. And then suddenly the structure is gone. And a real clear sense of like orientation and collective purpose is gone. Was there ever a post retirement moment where you go,

I don't think I've had that. And I feel really lucky, because I know so many players that have really struggled since they're retired. But I feel so lucky in what I'm doing now. I'd love to sit here and I've got to be honest with you. I haven't had that. What I don't like is...

not having that structure. For instance, I know exactly where I'm going to be on September 16th, on February 12th. I know where I'm going to be. I know where I'm going to be training. Now, I couldn't tell you what I'm doing next week. Things come up, things change. I don't like that. I've been institutionalized this year. I'm in it. I like getting told on a Monday we do this. I don't want to

I suppose for 20 years, I didn't have to grow up. Now I do. I came straight from school to people, no, they should take our passports off us. We weren't even allowed to, they didn't trust us enough to get ourselves to the airport. That's how football is. Everything's done for you so you can purely concentrate on football. I quite like that in a weird way because you just solely focus on one thing, whereas now,

There's lots of different things that I do. And lots of choice choices. Yeah, like, that's a decision. It's like being an adult. It's not great. It reminds me of, you know, Raphael Rowe, who was the guy who was imprisoned when he was younger for a crime. He didn't commit a sentence until I came out. And he was telling me, he was like, honestly, when I came out, it's like, I went to a supermarket and there's like seven types of beans. Yeah. And he stood in the supermarket and what the fuck do I do? What I do?

And he hated it and you'd have him in his partner with Clash because he was never used to making decisions in prison. You get one type of fucking beans. It's so true though. And I like that. I honestly like with football, you are told where to be, what to do at all times until you're on a football pitch. But even some degree that as well, you know, you're the manager's telling you what to do. But I quite liked it in some ways, but obviously the freedom is great in other ways. You know, like I have a Christmas now, I can spend time with the kids if I choose to have a weak offer.

during the winter, I can have that. There's pros and negatives to both. Are you a workaholic? I think I've got a good work ethic, definitely. Without that, I enjoy it. I enjoy getting up and having a purpose. Do you feel like you're out of balance, though?

Yeah, I'm finding the balance really tough. Okay. Yeah. Same. Really tough. Yeah. Obviously, you know, I speak to other about this as well, because we, I struggle, like I'll have one week where I'm constantly on the go. And then more we could, you know, a little bit quieter, but yeah, I sort of sold out the dream of retirement as being retirement. And it hasn't quite worked out that way because I love doing what I'm doing. Where did you send her? Well, I sold her like we began the gym every day, you know, little juices.

We'll be on dog walks. I said, you know, we're just Rome. Yeah, we'll go see. We'll go see quality times. And yeah, it's not quite worked out that way. But she knows I'm passionate about what I do. I'm very, I love what I do now. And

I'm still involved in football, which I love. Like I say, I do the podcast that I absolutely love doing. And various other bits and pieces come up. And I'm in a fortunate position. I know I'm in a fortunate position to be able to pick and choose the stuff that I do. And I do it purely for enjoyment.

And of course, you know, I try and make it the best it can be. And so I can earn off it. But the main focus was the same as my football career, really, was to do something that you enjoy. And I'm lucky in the fact that I can still do that. Is your main

dispute in your relationship because the answer for mine is this issue of quality time. It's like that's the thing I struggle with most is doing all this stuff in constantly and then being there to be to give this person quality time that they want where you just go for the fucking walk and you just do nothing. It seems like nothing but obviously there's something it's something picnic.

But you must find that hard. I find that hard to, but she's the same. I think it'd be easy to say that, I don't know, there's a misconception of maybe footballers' wives that they're just relaxing all day and she's so driven and she drives me, to be honest. And I run all my decisions past her. And I don't think a lot of people know that about her, but she's on it.

You know what? So that's good in the fact that if we go for a walk together, we'll have some quality time together, but we both won't switch off together.

You know, like, we're still bouncing ideas off each other. And I'm glad that I can have someone like that. So, you know, yeah, of course we switch off at times, but we're still very on it, both of us. So your podcast, absolute smash hit. A lot of X players, X athletes have started podcasts. I can't think of any that have risen to the heights that yours has risen to. Mike Tyson has a great podcast in the United States.

it's really been a bit of a cult phenomenon, the show. And as you kind of said, you know, I've heard you talk about the drive a few times and it's always, you're always, you know, saying very nice things and saying that, you know, our production and stuff is, is, um, is great. But it is like a couple of lads in a pub chatting. Yeah, I suppose that is, that is our thing. Like, I think it was,

It is a reflection of me. It's what I like to do. So I think I suppose we could now, because things have gone well, upgrade or set up a little bit. But it feels like we need to stay where we are. We love being in the pub. We like, you know, having a bit of a drink while we do it. And it feels certainly during lockdown.

You know, we have lots of comments from listeners and people writing in and they feel like they're in there with us, you know, and it feels like obviously this is a different kind of whole class, you know, more serious, more enlightening, maybe. But I try and I try and take people inside the world of what it's like being a footballer and it's a mad, funny world. It is and of course it's light-hearted, but hopefully it's a little bit informative as well.

When I say, I love doing it, it's genuinely the most fun. When I say to Ab, I'm going to work, she's like, you joking.

I'm leaving there with the four children and I'm going to a pub in town to record with lads that I get on really, really well with and just talking football. I suppose that is, you know, for a lot of people, certainly in my world, that's the ideal job and I feel very fortunate I've got it.

The podcast offers people that kind of, that sense of connection and community, like they are in the pub with you, which some people don't have in fortune these days. In the world, that's getting lonelier. But at the same time, it's not just like, it's not just banter. I remember seeing the episode with Prince William and where you talked about mental health and those kind of topics. And I think one of your co-hosts, I can't remember which one shared some of the feedback that you guys get from the audience that are listening. That particular episode with Prince William, how the fuck did you get from a first start?

How did you get Prince William to have a point with you on the podcast? There are points in this podcast. Obviously, where it all started from? I was just telling a story. I don't know what a podcast was. Obviously now, I know there's a huge industry of things. But I was just talking literally as I was talking to my mates. And obviously, yeah, we've brought up a big following. And then people started calling us about coming on.

And that was a call we had from the palace. I promise you, we had... At one point there was like, we had Elton John, I'd called.

And Prince William had called, not personally, but their team of people had called us about coming on. And obviously, without us, the difference through it was funny. But with Prince William, we made it happen and we ended up going to the Kingston Palace, which was an amazing day out because we took our group of lads and we had a beer over the road.

Oh, we went in. I don't know. You know, Prince William, I talk about the Samrat, the Indian restaurant that I used to go to with my mates as a kid. And when Prince William brought in the delivery and put it down, and I was thinking, if my mates would be always together as kids, my family, and you know, he's doing this. And it was just so surreal. But like you say, we got to talk about a range of topics. And I suppose, you know, certainly in football, there's a lot because there's a stigma in football of, you know, it's very macho. And you have to,

You have to be just a man up. There's this stigma and I think that this is where I sort of the target audience for Prince William and his heads together or heads up charity for mental health is targeting the right people if you like, the people that don't speak out.

So I think he wanted to tap into sort of our audience that would be very much, don't show any weakness. You know, that football world, if you know what I mean. So yeah, I think that was something that he wanted to touch base with. I'd done something with him called a team talk. I think it was a royal team talk. I think it was called on BBC. And we talked about, you know, mental health and stories in football. That's the first time I shared.

My issues, I never ever talked about anything. I was one of those people that kept everything. It was a great experience for us as a podcast and I think hopefully it helped a few people as well. You talked about on that podcast going into the changing room and opening up to your teammates at one point.

Yeah, I mean, I found it really difficult to... I'm one of those people that keeps everything aside, right? I wouldn't talk about... I see Abby every single night like picking up her phone to her friends and chatting about anything. I mean, I just don't do that. I wouldn't dream of picking up the phone and talking about a problem.

But since these kinds of things that I've done since that podcast, it's, you know, I've done a various, you know, the November campaign. I've worked with them. I've worked with various kind of men's, men or health charities. And it does make you think and, you know, I have started doing more stuff. I have started, you know, reaching out to my friends and you realize actually that people aren't always, people say they're always all right, but they're not.

I think the quote from that podcast with Prince William was, you'd gone into the dressing room, you'd shared how you were feeling with your teammates, and instantly you kind of felt lighter because of it. You felt better for opening up. Yeah, that's something that I definitely found like. When was that?

No, that was the Royal Team Talk. We opened up. It was me, Thierry Henry, Danny Rose, who was quite open with his mental health problems, Gareth Southgate. I think Dan Walker was the presenter and Prince William. When you actually get like a

like a group of lads there talking, like Prince William wasn't Prince William, you know, teary on ree wasn't teary on ree, it was just a group of blokes talking. And you know, Prince William's talking about bereavement and you think, you know, oh my God, like, you don't, I don't know, it's like, that's not real. It's like a not real life. And you think actually, when he's sitting there, he's just a lad, he's lost his mum, right? Like, yeah, like,

It was an amazing talk because you're not seeing Harris Princess Diana and you're not seeing him as the future king of England. You're seeing him as a man who's struggling, who's lost his mum. And I think sometimes when you read things and you look at things,

Like I say, it's that it's that thing of playing football and not realising that they're actually on a human level. It's just a fella that's lost his mom and has struggled with that over time. And when you say you opened up, you're referring to the stuff you've talked about today.

Yeah, me personally, yeah, I opened up about, yeah, looking different a bit, you know, like, and getting the heckled and being sort of that impressionable teenager and sort of dealing with that, with that kind of pressure of looking different, if you like. And bizarrely, that's become sort of like my superpower now. It's become sort of me. It's like,

unrecognizable. I think people understand all my insecurities, if you like, have been what has probably made me successful in the stuff that I've gone on to do.

When you do look back at your success and in hindsight, you go, OK, maybe this was a big part of it. This was part of it. What are the key things that in hindsight, you go, that's where I was successful. Because earlier on, you said, like, most of the football players, especially the strikers, didn't look like you. But you were still successful. You still played at the very top of the game. You still had the England caps. You still scored all those goals for England. So what was it about you?

Listen, I had ability. I felt like I was a good player, and I worked on that. If I was going to be tall, I wasn't going to be this what everyone thought I was going to be, which was that big target you can lump the ball up to. I wanted to have technical abilities. I worked on that. I constantly worked on that. That was obviously something that stood me out, and then I had to work on my

on my heading, because I was incredibly tall, but I didn't have to jump as a young lad. And then when you get to play professional football, you then realize that, you know, people are going to jump, they're going to beat you in the air, and it looks ridiculous if you're 6'7", and you're losing headers. So I had to work on my heading, and obviously it's determination, it's the will to succeed, it's the desire, it's the ability to deal with knockbacks,

that stand you out probably from the rest? Knockbacks. Ever. Did you ever have an experience with, especially through the period with Liverpool, where you went 18 games without scoring and the various twists and turns throughout your career? Did you ever experience anxiety?

Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, listen, I'm not an expert on this field. I wouldn't say I'm an anxious person. Like I say, I'm a glass, half full kind of person. But I would say, of course, like in football in terms of course I was anxious, I was snatching at chances. And was I anxious off the field? Yeah, couldn't switch off from it, couldn't stop thinking about it, couldn't sleep. So... Couldn't sleep.

Yeah, I wouldn't have been able to sleep, certainly after games, but I found that difficult anyway. The kind of buzz that you get from playing a match under the lights, especially is so difficult to sleep after. I don't think physically impossible at times. Where are you now in terms of your mental well-being and your mental health? Yeah, good, good. Yeah, like I would never...

I don't think I'd last myself as ever as having problems. I've had issues that I've had to manage personally, like everyone has, I think, but I'd say I'm in a good place. I just need to get the balance right between this new field that I'm in, if you like.

and family life, you know, I need to get the right balance when I'm working enough to sort of satisfy that hunger to keep going and not miss what is important, you know, which is my kids, which I adore and I want to see grow up and I want to be at the forefront of that, I want to be hands on, you know, so got to try and work that balance out. Yeah, it's my biggest problem. I always, you know, I think

I always hear this voice, which is like, when is enough enough? Like, when is enough going to be enough? Like, podcasts is going great. Business is going great. You don't achieve loads of things. Like, what else do you need? When is enough enough? It's a difficult one because I think it's up for me. It's about the work that I was about enjoying it. And if it stops being fun, then I think that's the time to call it quits. Crouchfest.

19th of November. Yeah, 19th of November. I've seen it because I watched all the videos from like 2019. Yeah, that's right. I love my correct fucking laugh. Oh, it's so much fun. Yeah. Well, the thing is like people buy tickets and not have a clue what they're letting themselves in for.

And it is one of the best things that we've ever done. And we just thought we'd scale it up this time. Last time we had Liam Gallagher on, we had Catherine Jenkins singing the Champions League anthem, who the fellow that wrote the Champions League anthem spoke to us. Tom Grenin, you meet at six. We had, you know, people dressed as referees, fancy dress. It was absolute carnage. And yeah, now we're at Wembley Arena. We've scaled it up. Wembley Arena. Wembley Arena. Yeah.

I mean, we've probably bitten off more than we can see. I'm not going to lie to you. But yeah, great guests and looking forward to it so much. What are you promising for this crouch first? Well, that's the thing we don't promise anything. OK, so you don't say anything to say. We literally don't say a word to anyone. And we've got, obviously, I mean, some of the things that we've been getting up to has been a lot of fun. And some of the knockbacks that we've had have been priceless, because we're asking things that Wembley Arena has never seen before.

But yeah, honestly, I can't tell you how much fun the last one was and if it's half as good, it'll be a great event. Well, everyone listening can, there's a few tickets left so you can go, they might not be by the time this comes out, but you can go buy tickets online for crouch first. It looks like, I mean, I watched the highlights from 2019 and it looked like, it looked like a huge group of mates.

pissed having a laugh. I can't dress you up anymore but you're welcome to come. If I'm here, I'll come for sure. They look really, really good. What is your goal now? What is next view? All these things going on in your life, the media stuff, you're presenting on BT, et cetera, et cetera. You've got a podcast, you've got this amazing book, you've just written, well, it's just come out in October, I believe, how to be an ex footballer. The reviews for this book are insane.

Much of the stories you've told to me today, some of them are in here, some of them are in your previous book, but both books are Sunday times, Top Bin's bestseller. What is next? What is the? Yeah, I, like I say, like this, I'm finding my feet. I have no clue. I had no clue where I was going to go. I didn't know what angle to go for. I'm doing things because I enjoy them. And like, when you say, what is your goal?

I don't want to come on here. Diary of a CEO, right? And everyone's got a goal. Everyone's got a purpose. Everyone knows what they're going to do. I have to be honest with you. I don't have a goal. I don't want to be doing this in five years or that in five years. My goal was achieved. Like, all I wanted to be was a football player. All I wanted to do was do it at any level.

every single day. And then I felt like I did that. I achieved it. I achieved more than I ever thought I would. And now everything that's happening to me is the things that I'm enjoying and their roots and avenues that I'm taking, but there's no particular goal.

And I know that might be difficult for you to understand, but I just can't, I haven't got a motive or a plan on just living each day and enjoying each day that I'm given. And I feel like I'm blessed in the situation that I'm in. But this is the most genuine thing I can tell you, I don't have an end goal.

I think you'd be surprised how common that is. I think people think that I have everything figured out or got necessarily like a North Star or a God. But I've said on this podcast a million times that I've never written a business plan in my life. It's really about like doing my best today and doing that every day and kind of being open to the things that come along. Because goals can also be really unhelpful in the sense of like it might make you miss an opportunity. If you had a goal when you left football to become a coach, you might miss the opportunity to do the podcast or all these other things.

Well, I feel like it's also now reminded in some way you go, like you have the end goal, but like you say, these missed opportunities. Like, like I did the book, I did the podcast and things took off and then opportunities come off the back of that. And as long as those things are going well, the opportunities will continue to come. And then you might find that you enjoy something else or a different avenue. And that is where I'm going. I'm on a journey that I have no clue where it's going, but I'm enjoying it and all my at last.

At the start, you mentioned that the way you were treated when you're younger, looking a bit different, meant that you used kind of self-disparagement, criticizing yourself, making a joke at yourself first as a defense mechanism. Much of the reason why people love your books, love your podcasts is because they're like really, really funny. And they make people laugh. And even from like hanging out with you today for a couple of hours, whatever, you are one of those real funny people. I mean, on the front of your book, it says, a comedy genius. I didn't write that by the way. Yes, you did it.

No, but it's interesting. I just find it interesting as an observation that the thing that people criticized you for created equality in you, which is seems to be from my very naive assumption, like critical now to your success and why people are so fond of you, is that an accurate assessment? It's a spot on, you know, a sort of

My kind of like humor and being able to laugh at myself was a self-defense mechanism where people were trying to take the mic out of me. I would take the mic out of myself in a better way than they were about to do. So that makes me self-deprecating. And I think that is very uncommon for a footballer to be self-deprecating. It was groundbreaking. And I don't think it should be.

But let's be honest, I think it was a bit. Not many players that play for England let their guard down at any point or want to criticise themselves or have a laugh at themselves. And that is something maybe that has set me apart that I'm aware of.

from other players. And that is not me being contrived or trying to force an agenda. I think anyone who has played with me over the course of 20 years will say to you, this is the person that they knew in the dressing room. But I think I'm able to showcase that a little bit more by being less guarded because I haven't got a football club telling me to not

talk too much or you know you're a footballer shut up like now I can do whatever I like and fortunately I've been in a position where I suppose the general public or fans that are buying into what I'm doing are enjoying it and you know for as long as they are enjoying it I'll continue to do it and when they're not I'll fuck off.

It reminds me a lot of Lewis Capaldi, who I sat with, where he just seems to just be doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. Well, I admire him so much. He's the kind of thing that I love to see. I watched it recently, I think he was on John from Ross.

I was brilliant like he's hilarious and he looks like he's enjoying what he's doing and you know he's himself and I think that is what I'm doing and thankfully people are hopefully enjoying. 100% they are enjoying it I think that's a huge understatement and it seems to be the case from the people I've sat here with on this podcast seems to be the case that those that are themselves that are able to build a life based on being themselves

are living the most sustainable and fulfilling lives. It's fucking difficult not being yourself for a long period of time, and it's not fun, right? Yeah, well, you can't get tripped up if you're being yourself. Yeah. You can't... The guard never slips, does it? But it feels like a risk to some people. To some people. Well, you can see why. Yeah, it's a risk if... If you want to. No, you're right. You're actually right. It's only a risk if you're a ticket, but you're completely right. Big someone else, if you want to know.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to ask it for. And the question that's been left for you is what moment has caused you to be the most afraid in your life? It's difficult. I think I've been in situations where

None of this matters, does it? Let's be honest, right? I'm thinking about football terms. I was thinking straight away, I went to like, walk out when I didn't score when I did this, when I wasn't going to make it as a football. Like, like none of that matters, does it? Your family's the most important thing. And when you have a, a scare,

personally, or one of your close people, your wife or your kids as an issue, that is when you're the most scared that you'll ever be. And I think, you know, I've had those worries.

And that's when you really realize what's important. Obviously when the pandemic and we were in lockdown and that kind of thing and you realize actually none of it matters. It was just, I had my family and we were fortunate obviously to be in a nice house and I just thought, we are incredibly lucky even if we don't have

If you don't have anything, we've got each other. I think that's the most scared when you have a scare with someone close to you, which we have had. You get through that. That's the most scared of it. That's exactly what came to mind for me. It was when I think it must have been 10 in my mum.

called me and told me, I believe she called me and told me she had cancer in her breast because she had found a lump and then it transpired. It was assist. It was fine. But that period of like several days believing that my mom's going to die when I'm 10. Yeah. Nothing. I mean, everything pearls in comparison. And you realize that fuck all matters, as you said. Yeah, like, like it's so weird. Like I went to like football then, like straight away. Then you actually think, Oh, I don't mean it. That doesn't matter. Is it though? We're scared. I've been is when you have a scare in the family without doubt.

Peter, thank you. Thank you for so many reasons. Thank you for inspiring me in this podcast. You've been a big inspiration for us. The production is one thing. I know you've commented on the production before, but what you have is something that's so authentic and brilliant, and that's the impossible thing to create. To find a authentic formula that's resonant with the audience that you have, and give so much to them,

It's like it's a lot and it's not fucking easy. And you know, I watched your playing career. I've watched, you know, I've watched you play in all the clubs you've played in. The thing that I'm like, that is fucking unbelievable is actually what you've been able to do since. You know, and that says a lot because you've got to Champions League finals and you paid for the best clubs in the land. But watching what you've done since I think is even tougher.

Um, that's just my perspective and I've taken a huge amount of inspiration from that. Your book is amazing. Crouch first is obviously going to be amazing because you guys just have a magic that is like impossible to replicate. And so you got, you know, it's fun to watch you guys. It's really, really fun to watch your journey and to not know where it's going to go. I mean, like Prince William walking in, you're in this pub toiler, like, you know, I just don't.

It's fucking brilliant. And it's perfectly authentically brilliant. So thank you for coming and doing this. It's a huge compliment to us that you come and do it. And it's been great to chat to you and meeting you. No, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Well, you're laughing. I'm just laughing because I like smiling. I haven't enjoyed it. No, I genuinely haven't enjoyed it. And it's nice to see a professional set up. Thank you so much. Thank you.