Podcast Summary
Meaning and pleasure in parenthood: The desire for meaning and pursuit of pleasure are significant drivers in the decision to have children and the experience of parenthood itself, making it a 'holy' experience.
The value of having children goes beyond educational benefits and political rhetoric. Instead, it's about finding real pleasure and meaning in life. Jia Tolentino, author of "Trick Mirror," shares her perspective on this, drawing parallels between the decision to have children and the experience of doing psychedelics. She explains that the desire for meaning and the pursuit of pleasure are significant drivers in both cases. Tolentino also highlights the sacred aspect of parenthood, describing it as a "holy" experience due to the total submission and disappearance into someone else's needs. Overall, the conversation underscores the importance of reevaluating our cultural vocabulary to better understand the true value and significance of living a good life.
Sacred vs Mundane: The need to escape from the present moment is a common experience, and taking time for rest and contemplation can be essential for fully engaging with the world
The constant tension between the sacred and the mundane, or the desire to escape from the present moment, is a common experience in both parenting and life as a whole. This desire to escape can manifest in various ways, such as staring at our phones or engaging in other distractions. While it may seem like we're turning away from the world, sometimes we're simply seeking rest and recharge for our attention, allowing us to fully engage and experience the world around us. The smartphone era has made it easier to give in to these distractions, but the need to escape is not a new phenomenon. It's important to recognize that our motivations for seeking escape may not always be negative and that taking time for contemplation and rest can be essential for fully engaging with the world.
Children's content engagement vs parental concerns: Children's content like Cocomelon and Blippi deeply engage kids, but parents often find it grating. Core business strategy is attention capture, leading to feelings of self-loathing and concerns about negative effects on children's development.
Cocomelon and similar children's content, such as Blippi, exist in a unique tension point where children are deeply engaged, while adults often find it grating. This paradigm shift in children's entertainment from being primarily configured as entertainment to raw attentional capture is a significant factor in the divergence between what kids and parents want. The people behind these shows may aim to provide pleasure and entertainment, but the core business strategy is to capture and maintain children's attention. This dynamic can lead to feelings of self-loathing among parents, as they ask these shows to serve an instrumental purpose while also being concerned about the potential negative effects of excessive screen time on their children's development. Ultimately, the fear is that these shows may limit children's capacity for deep thought, attention, and imagination, as they grow up with a limited concept of what is possible and an overreliance on screens for distraction.
Magazines vs Phones: Reading magazines offers a sense of freedom and collection of attention, while phones bring constant surveillance and pressure to be productive, potentially negatively impacting our ability to engage with the world and find joy outside of screens.
The speaker values the experience of reading magazines over using their phone due to the sense of freedom and collection of attention it provides. They believe that constant surveillance and the pressure to be productive on their phone negatively impacts their experience of the world and their ability to fully engage with it. The speaker expresses concern that similar technologies may negatively impact their children's capacity for rich, immersive experiences and their ability to find sources of joy and devotion outside of screens. They believe that the ability to make judgments about what feels good and bad, rather than relying solely on measurable outcomes, is important for both themselves and their children.
Pleasure and joy in children's experiences: Research shows that pleasure and joy may enhance learning in children, not just educational value. Cultural emphasis on achievement and self-improvement may negatively impact children's experiences, prioritize pleasure and joy alongside education.
The pursuit of education and achievement for children should not overshadow the importance of pleasure and joy in their experiences. The speaker discusses how research often focuses on the educational value of children's shows, but argues that delight and pleasure may actually enhance learning. The speaker also reflects on how their own desires and motivations have shifted over time, from pure hedonism to a deeper, more prolonged pleasure that involves feeling more human. They question the cultural emphasis on achievement and self-improvement, particularly as it applies to children, and express concern about the potential negative effects of this optimization culture. The speaker also references the work of child psychologist Alison Gopnik, who has noted the similarities between the developing child's brain and the brain of an adult on psychedelics, suggesting that children's brains are designed to absorb and process a vast amount of experience without filtering it out. Ultimately, the speaker argues that pleasure and joy should be prioritized alongside education and achievement in children's lives.
Children's media quality: Instead of solely focusing on screen time, the quality of children's media experiences matters, providing valuable moments of beauty and pleasure.
The focus on measuring screen time for children may be misguided, and instead, we should consider the overall quality of their experiences with media. The speaker suggests that children's shows, even seemingly "stupid" ones, can provide valuable experiences of beauty and pleasure, just as adults may seek out such experiences after psychedelic experiences. The speaker also emphasizes that the child's life as a whole, not just their screen time, is a crucial factor in their development. Additionally, the speaker argues that adults' own dissatisfaction with their digital lives can make it difficult to imagine alternatives, creating a loop of continued investment in the status quo. Ultimately, the conversation about children's media use may offer insights into the larger issue of adults' relationships with technology and the importance of creating alternatives to unsatisfying digital experiences.
Media and Technology Overload: Media and technology overload can make it hard for children to distinguish meaningful pleasure from meaningless pleasure. Recommendation algorithms can create a sense of being learned and known, but also manipulated. Real-world experiences with friction and true surprise are essential for clarifying children's radar for what is truly enjoyable and fulfilling.
The constant availability of media and technology, particularly for children, can make it harder for them to determine what is enough and what is too much. The contagious nature of social norms and the allure of recommendation algorithms can lead to a loss of instinct for what truly brings pleasure and meaning. The use of surveillance and personalized recommendations can create a sense of being learned and known, which is a human desire, but can also result in a feeling of being overly optimized and manipulated. It's important for children to have experiences and desires that help clarify their radar for what is truly enjoyable and fulfilling. The rise of children's media and entertainment built around recommendation algorithms, like Coco Mellon, can be effective as a babysitter or harvester, but it creates a clear feeling of culture being built to predict and cater to individual preferences, which can be unsettling for both children and adults. Ultimately, the frictionless nature of technology can make it difficult to distinguish meaningful pleasure from meaningless pleasure, and it's essential to recognize and value the friction and true surprise that comes with real-world experiences.
Human connection vs technology: Despite technology's ability to mimic human interaction, it lacks meaning and may fail to keep interest, emphasizing the importance of human connection and meaning in real-world interactions.
While technology can provide personalized experiences and remove friction, the human connection and meaning that comes from real-world interactions cannot be replicated. The speaker shares their experience of using AI relationship apps and how despite the technology's ability to mimic human interaction, it lacked meaning and failed to keep their interest. They also reflect on how growing up before large language models, they value the friction and meaning in human interactions more, but younger generations may not have the same discernment. The speaker also shares their personal struggle with parenting and how trying to control and optimize the experience can make it unpleasant, while fully surrendering to the experience and being present brings the most joy. Overall, the speaker emphasizes the importance of human connection and meaning in a world that is increasingly focused on frictionless experiences.
Present moment joy: Finding joy in the present moment, even in simple activities, can lead to a fulfilling life. Recommended books include 'Lonesome Dove', 'Ascension', 'When We Cease to Understand the World', and 'How to Do Nothing'.
Finding joy in the present moment, even in seemingly mundane activities, can lead to a fulfilling and meaningful life. The speaker shared her experience of once feeling trapped by obligations, but now finding happiness in simple things like going to the playground. She also recommended several books that have deeply affected her, including "Lonesome Dove," "Ascension," and "When We Cease to Understand the World," which explore themes of emotional attachment, grounded sci-fi, and scientific discoveries that challenge our understanding of reality. Another influential book she mentioned was "How to Do Nothing" by Jenny Odell, which discusses the importance of paying attention in a distracted world. Overall, the conversation emphasized the value of finding joy in the present and engaging with thought-provoking literature.