GOP Transformation: Trump now leads a diverse GOP coalition, facing challenges from figures like JD Vance, who promote significant changes in conservative values and policies, marking a shift towards more interventionist approaches to morality and societal norms.
Donald Trump, having taken control of the Republican Party and the MAGA coalition, now faces challenges from a more ideologically diverse group than when he first entered politics. Figures like JD Vance represent a shift towards deeper ideological beliefs within this coalition, promoting ideas that could drastically reshape conservative policies and society itself. The new right is becoming more focused not just on opposing the left, but also on transforming societal values. This ideological shift includes calls for significant government intervention to influence public morality, which highlights a growing divide within conservatism as younger members push for more radical changes.
Divisions in the New Right: The new right is grappling with how to use government to promote virtue and address modern challenges, particularly in relation to technology and personal choices. Differences between leaders highlight complexities in navigating these issues within the evolving political landscape.
There's a noticeable divide within the new right regarding how to address modern societal issues, especially around ideas of virtue and morality. Figures like Yoram Hazoni advocate for using government to promote virtue, which can lead to various regulations, including on pornography. This contrast is evident in the debate over how much the government should intervene in personal choices and the modern challenges posed by technology. Leaders like Donald Trump may not fully align with these views, as his past actions contradict strict regulations on behaviors like pornography. Meanwhile, younger generations express a yearning for simpler times, indicating a potential desire for change in how modern life, especially influenced by technology, impacts them. This conversation reveals a significant evolution in the right's approach to governance and culture, alongside a critical examination of the effects of modernity, particularly digital modernity.
Cultural Conservatism: Young conservatives are responding to cultural issues with a mix of skepticism towards government and calls for accountability in big tech. Their discourse is shifting away from traditional religious frameworks towards a more populist view of virtue and citizenship, despite contradictions in their leaders' actions.
The political landscape is shifting, especially among young conservatives who are navigating complex issues like government intervention, big tech, and cultural debates. They desire to resist overreach while also seeking action against excesses like those of Google. This generation, influenced by events like COVID lockdowns, shows a blend of traditional values and a more populist approach to issues, often lacking the religious fervor seen in previous decades. Leaders may tout virtue rooted in community responsibility and citizenship, yet some prominent figures embody less virtuous behavior, highlighting a contradiction in advocating for a more virtuous society while employing questionable means. Overall, these transformations show a reaction against perceived cultural oversteps and a call for a more engaged civic life.
Media and Immigration: Frustration over media portrayal of immigration leads some politicians to use extreme claims to gain attention, risking misinformation and societal divides instead of fostering constructive dialogue.
The conversation highlights the deep frustrations among some politicians about how issues like immigration are portrayed in the media. They feel that extreme statements are necessary to attract attention to real problems, even if those statements are alarming or untrue. This approach, reminiscent of Trump's tactics, emphasizes a belief that exaggeration is needed to engage the public and ensure their concerns are heard. However, it raises ethical questions since many of these arguments do not reflect reality. Instead of fostering productive dialogue on immigration's complexities, this method risks spreading misinformation and worsening societal divides. There seems to be a struggle to communicate genuine concerns about immigration without being labeled negatively, complicating efforts to find common ground on this contentious topic.
Unfairness in Politics: Feelings of unfairness drive political views among Americans, highlighting a need for effective economic policies that strengthen families rather than relying on outdated ideas.
Feeling a sense of unfairness is a powerful driver of political opinions among everyday Americans. Issues like immigration and economic concerns, especially regarding healthcare and student debt, create feelings of dissatisfaction. Many on the right seem focused on nostalgic policies, such as tariffs, without examining how to genuinely support families and communities through thoughtful economic strategies. There's a need for serious analysis of successful economic policies and how they can strengthen communities today, rather than just longing for a past that may not be attainable or effective.
Aesthetic vs. Substance: Conservative movements are focusing more on aesthetics than substance, risking the loss of essential classical liberal values, leading to potential conflicts within the party, especially regarding governance if Trump returns to power.
Conservative movements are experiencing a shift where aesthetics often overshadow substance. Figures like Ron DeSantis and JD Vance illustrate a desire for a new elite that encourages traditional values. However, this shift risks discarding important classical liberal principles, creating divisions within the movement about how best to achieve social virtue and governance, especially as Donald Trump may have to unify differing factions if he returns to power.
Project 2025: Project 2025 reflects the conservative push for a structured agenda in a potential Trump administration, highlighting the challenges of loyalty and governance amid ideological divides.
Project 2025 emerged from the need for a more organized agenda within the conservative movement, especially since Donald Trump lacks a cohesive policy approach. Many believe that despite attempts by the Trump campaign to create its own policies, Project 2025 may still greatly influence decision-making in a potential second Trump term, particularly concerning personnel choices. Given the limited pool of conservatives aligned with Trumpism, the reliance on loyalists is likely to shape governance significantly. However, the internal ideological divides among key players suggest that while the administration may be more united, it may also lead to challenges in effectively executing policies. Differences in priorities and the dynamics of governance could make it difficult for a second Trump administration to navigate these complexities, impacting its overall effectiveness.
Republican Shift: Future Republican leadership may prioritize immigration, dismantle certain agencies, and aim to reclaim institutional control, but Trump's unpredictability complicates their direction.
A shift in Republican leadership could lead to significant changes in policies and governance. Key priorities might include a focus on immigration, an anti-neoconservative foreign policy, and potential dismantling of institutions like the Department of Education. There's a growing sentiment among new right figures that the party has lost control over major societal institutions and they feel compelled to reclaim that power, focusing more on families and communities over businesses. However, Donald Trump’s unpredictable influence complicates future direction, making it uncertain how the party will evolve. As new leaders emerge, their potential to reshape the Republican Party hinges on their strategies regarding control and policy amidst the ongoing influence of Trump.
MAGA Is Not as United as You Think
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How Biden’s Middle East Policy Fell Apart
On Oct. 6 of last year, the Biden administration was hammering out a grand Middle East bargain in which Saudi Arabia would normalize relations with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state. And even after Hamas’s attack the following day, the U.S. hoped to keep that deal alive to preserve the conditions for some kind of durable peace.
But that deal is now basically unviable. The war is expanding. Israel may be on the verge of occupying Gaza indefinitely and possibly southern Lebanon, too. So why was President Biden ineffective at achieving his goals? In the past year, has the U.S. been able to shape this conflict at all?
Franklin Foer recently wrote a piece in The Atlantic trying to answer these questions. And he starts with the Biden administration’s attempts to de-escalate tensions in the Middle East — an effort that began well before Oct. 7. In this conversation, Foer walks through his reporting inside the diplomatic bubble of the conflict and the administrations of other Middle Eastern states that have serious stakes in Israel’s war in Gaza.
Book Recommendations:
Our Man by George Packer
Sea Under by David Grossman
Collected Poems by Rita Dove
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair . Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro, Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Emma Ashford, Shira Efron, Natasha Hall, Richard Haass, Michael Koplow, Selcuk Karaoglan and Switch and Board Podcast Studio.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalog, and the back catalogs of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.
The Economy Is at a Hinge Moment
The economy has hit a hinge moment. For the past few years, inflation has been the big economic story — the fixation of economic policymakers, journalists and almost everyone who goes to the grocery store. But economists now largely see inflation as tamed. It’s still a major political issue; the country continues to reel from years of rising prices, and there is a real affordability crisis. But that isn’t all the next administration will have to deal with. So what does it mean to fight the next economic war rather than the last one?
Jason Furman is an economics professor at Harvard and a former chair of the Council of Economic Advisers under Barack Obama. Furman has closely tracked the inflation crisis over the past few years, and he’s deeply knowledgeable about how economic policy is made.
In this conversation, we discuss why the inflation crisis upended the expectations of so many economists and what we’ve learned for the next time inflation strikes, what he expects to see with mortgage rates and the housing market, the upcoming fight over Donald Trump’s expiring tax cuts, the good and the bad in Kamala Harris’s housing policy and why there seems to be so little concern from either party about the ever-growing U.S. debt.
Mentioned:
“The Economic Theory Behind JD Vance’s Populism” with Oren Cass on The Ezra Klein Show
“Trump’s Most Misunderstood Policy Proposal” by Oren Cass
“In Defense of the Dismal Science” by Jason Furman
Book Recommendations:
How the World Became Rich by Mark Koyama and Jared Rubin
The Goodness Paradox by Richard Wrangham
The Ladies’ Paradise by Émile Zola
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones, Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Tyler Cowen, Veronique de Rugy, Desmond Lachman, Lindsay Owens, Nathan Tankus, Isabella Weber and Sonia Herrero.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalog, and the back catalogs of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.
The V.P. Debate Came Down to One Moment
The most consequential and revealing exchange during the vice-presidential debate on Tuesday came toward the end, when JD Vance was asked whether he would seek to challenge this year’s election results. That one moment proved that he can’t be trusted with the office he seeks.
But the 85 minutes preceding that moment had a lot of interesting policy discussion, so we couldn’t resist talking about that, too.
This episode contains strong language.
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by our senior editor, Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalog, and the back catalogs of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.
About the Coming Paywall
In a couple weeks, the archives of our show will only be available to subscribers. Here’s why that’s happening and what to expect.
To learn more, go to nytimes.com/podcasts.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalogue, and the back catalogues of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.
MAGA Is Not as United as You Think
I’ve been fascinated by the problem Donald Trump faces with Project 2025. Trump has been caught in an awkward position, disavowing the document itself, but unable to fully disavow the people behind it. So I wanted to do an episode not just on Trump, but on the unwieldy coalition that has formed around him — what is sometimes referred to as the “New Right.”
Emily Jashinsky is the D.C. correspondent and host of “Undercurrents” for UnHerd, a co-host of “Counter Points” with Ryan Grim, and a former editor at The Federalist, one of the most influential sites among conservatives today. She’s described herself as someone with “a foot in both camps” of the “Old Right” and the “New Right.” So I thought she’d be a great guide to understanding how the conservative movement has changed.
In this conversation, we discuss the key differences between the Old Right and the New Right; what the New Right wants; why New Right thinkers are so interested in the concepts of “modernity” and “virtue”; and what influence the New Right might have in a second Trump administration.
Mentioned:
The Virtue of Nationalism by Yoram Hazony
Book Recommendations:
Primal Screams by Mary Eberstadt
The Devil’s Chessboard by David Talbot
The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Efim Shapiro.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalogue, and the back catalogues of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts.
What Pete Buttigieg Learned Playing JD Vance
America has become increasingly polarized when it comes to trust. Voters who distrust the system — who see institutions as corrupt and are prone to conspiracy theories — have long existed on the far left and far right. But Donald Trump seems to have sparked a realignment, what the writer Matthew Yglesias calls “the crank realignment.” The G.O.P. is now the political home of the distrustful, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s Trump endorsement was a clear sign of these changing times.
In 2020, Pete Buttigieg wrote a book on trust in politics. And he’s been persistent in making the case — in speeches, on TV — for what he calls “a better kind of politics.” So I wanted to talk to him about his theory of politics. Why does he think so many Americans have lost trust in the government? What responsibility does the Democratic Party have here? And how does he believe trust can be restored?
Note: I invited Buttigieg on the show in his personal capacity so we could discuss his thoughts on the election without violating the Hatch Act, which prohibits members of the government from campaigning in their official guise. This also means I wasn't able to ask Buttigieg many questions about his work as transportation secretary. But I think we still had a pretty fascinating conversation.
Book Recommendations:
Morning and Evening by Jon Fosse
The Future Is History by Masha Gessen
Mr. Churchill in the White House by Robert Schmuhl
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Jonah Kessel, Elliot DeBruyn and Selcuk Karaoglan.
Israel vs. Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran — and Itself
It’s been almost a year since Oct. 7. More than 40,000 Palestinians in Gaza are dead. The hostages are not all home, and it doesn’t look like there will be a cease-fire deal that brings them home anytime soon. Israeli politics is deeply divided, and the country’s international reputation is in tatters. The Palestinian Authority is weak. A war may break out in Lebanon soon. There is no vision for the day after and no theory of what comes next.
So I wanted to talk to David Remnick, the editor of The New Yorker. Remnick has been reporting from Israel for decades and has a deep familiarity and history with both the region and the politics and the people who are driving it. He first profiled Benjamin Netanyahu back in 1998. In 2013, he profiled Naftali Bennett, the politician leading Netanyahu in polls of who Israelis think is best suited to be prime minister. And he recently profiled Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza.
In this conversation, we talk about what Remnick learned profiling Netanyahu, Bennett and Sinwar, as well as where Israel’s overlapping conflicts with Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah and Iran sit after nearly a year of war. Remnick and I were both recently in Israel and the West Bank, as well as near Israel’s border with Lebanon, and we discuss our impressions from those trips.
Mentioned:
“Notes from Underground” by David Remnick
“The Party Faithful” by David Remnick
“The Outsider” by David Remnick
Book Recommendations:
Hope Against Hope by Nadezhda Mandelstam
These Truths by Jill Lepore
Cosmopolitanism by Kwame Anthony Appiah
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones
I stumbled on a Zadie Smith line recently that stopped me in my tracks. She was writing in January 2017, and describing the political stakes of that period — Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the U.S. — and the way you could feel it changing people.
“Millions of more or less amorphous selves will now necessarily find themselves solidifying into protesters, activists, marchers, voters, firebrands, impeachers, lobbyists, soldiers, champions, defenders, historians, experts, critics. You can’t fight fire with air. But equally you can’t fight for a freedom you’ve forgotten how to identify.”
What Smith is describing felt so familiar — how politics can sometimes feel like it demands we put aside our internal conflict, our uncertainty, so we can take a strong position. I see it so often in myself and people around me, and yet I rarely hear it talked about. And Smith’s ability to give language to these kinds of quiet battles inside of ourselves is one reason she’s been one of my favorite writers for years.
Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her latest novel, “The Fraud,” also deals with politics and identity. It’s about a case in 19th-century London, but it has eerie resonances with our current political moment. I wasn’t surprised to learn that Trump and populism were front of mind for her when she wrote it. In this conversation, we discuss what populism is really channeling, why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness, how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media, and more.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
Feel Free by Zadie Smith
“Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction” by Zadie Smith
Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman
“Generation Why?” by Zadie Smith
Book Recommendations:
The Director by Daniel Kehlmann
The Rebel’s Clinic by Adam Shatz
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
The Real ‘Border Czar’ Defends the Biden-Harris Record
Republicans want to label Kamala Harris as the border czar. And by just looking at a chart, you can see why. Border crossings were low when Donald Trump left office. But when President Biden is in the White House, they start shooting up and up — to numbers this country had never seen before, peaking in December 2023. Those numbers have fallen significantly since Biden issued tough new border policies. But that has still left Harris with a major vulnerability. Why didn’t the administration do more sooner? And why did border crossings skyrocket in the first place?
Harris was not the border czar; she had little power over policy. But to the extent that there is a border czar, it’s the secretary of homeland security, Alejandro Mayorkas. So I wanted to have him on the show to explain what’s happened at the border the past few years — the record surge, the administration’s record and what it has revealed about our immigration system.
Book Recommendations:
The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead
String Theory by David Foster Wallace
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Ariel G. Ruiz Soto, Dara Lind, David Frum, Jason De Léon, Michael Clemens, Natan Last and Steven Camarota.
Harris Had a Theory of Trump, and It Was Right
Tuesday night was the first — perhaps the only — debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris. And it proved one of Harris’s stump speech lines right: Turns out she really does know Trump’s type. She had a theory of who Trump was and how he worked, and she used it to take control of the collision. But this was a substantive debate, too. The candidates clashed on abortion, health care, the economy, energy, immigration and more. And so we delve into the policy arguments to untangle what was really being said — and what wasn’t.
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Jack McCordick. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.