Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Bonnie Raitt

Well, hello there. It's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. I'm so happy to be back with season three of Weiser than Me. And to celebrate that, I am so excited to share that we have partnered with Lingua Franca, a New York City-based luxury and sustainable clothing brand, to offer our listeners wiser than me specific hand-embroidered sweaters, sweatshirts, and more.

I've gotten to hand select each of the items in this curated collection and have had so much fun with it along the way, adding a bunch of sayings from our podcast to the items. It all combines lingua franca's chic yet thoughtful designs with our mission to celebrate the wisdom of older women. So check out our collection by heading over to wisethemyshop.com and clicking on the lingua franca collection. Lemonade.

For me, music, well, listening to music is both an escape from what's going on and a way to feel what's going on more intensely, you know, always has been. When I was little, I loved the Beatles. Little kids love the Beatles. I especially loved Ringo. Ringo was my favorite because he had that big nose, you know, that's irresistible. And I had a John Lennon doll too that somebody gave to me. Of course, I was only five years old, so I didn't know they were geniuses.

And I love the monkeys, partly because they were cute and funny, but last train to Clarksville is pretty fucking good, truth be told. My grandma Dee Dee gave me a monkey's record. Somebody must have told her to do that because I think she was more Benny Goodman than Mickey Dones. And of course, crushes are tied to music. I mean, I've already talked on this show about Bobby Sherman, but how about James Taylor?

Oh, Lord Jesus, James Taylor on the cover of the album, Sweet Baby James. I just looked at it and I fell so deeply in love all over again. And I have to say side note, there was this guy that worked at a woman's clothing boutique that was really funky and cool called the Elephant Trunk. And it was in Mount Kisko, New York. And I used to go into that, that store.

practically on a daily basis when I was visiting my dad because that man was there and he looked so much like James Taylor and I would just look at him and I can look at him right now in my mind's eye and I'm leaving my husband for that man because he was so fucking gorgeous. Anyway,

I'm talking about music. It's very, very evocative, Holy Christ. And I think the most important musical discovery for me was around middle school when I fell in love with rhythm and blues, soul music, and funk. I started to go to concerts in Washington, D.C. with my best friend, Carleen. We saw the Commodores. We saw Sly in the Family Stone, Parliament Funkadelic. We love to funk you Funkenstein. Your funk is the best. And it was the best. I still can't get enough of that music.

And then a couple of years out of high school, I got to be on Saturday Night Live and I got to see all these artists up close when they were the musical guests on the show and we got some great ones like Queen and the Clash and Randy Newman and that damned squeeze. Excuse me, does anyone remember Squeeze? They were so great.

Just saying those names takes me right back. But to top them all one week, who is the host and the musical guest? Stevie Wonder. Yeah, Stevie Wonder. And he shows up and of course he's exactly what you want him to be. He's funny, he's charming, he's singing all the time, and he's a genius. I mean, of course, I mean, come on, he's Stevie Wonder.

So there's this meeting in the executive producer's room with all the actors and the writers and everybody with Stevie Wonder to pitch sketches or something. I don't really exactly remember, but I was late, okay? Oh, God. So I get there and they're like 25 people crammed into the room and I'm very embarrassed to be late, of course. So I kind of sneak into the room and Stevie Wonder from across the room says, well, there she is, my pretty baby.

And everybody looks over and I'm blushing, of course, because I'm caught being late. But mostly because Stevie Wonder just called me pretty. And then I thought, wait, what? How did he know it was me? The guy is blind. How did he know it was me?

And it turns out he loves to make jokes about his blindness, probably because he's never let it hold him back in any way. I mean, he kept pitching sketches where he was driving cars and heavy machinery, and there was a controversial sketch where he plays tennis against Joe Piscopo and actually got into the show anyway.

Just so many memories are tied to songs and artists, you know, just one or two notes and everything floods back. The crush, the breakup, the sadness, the joy, the adventure, you know, the life. Music is the fastest way to get me to feel something here in my body and not in my head.

I mean, even, honestly, even Christmas carols. God damn it, sometimes I get so choked up, I can barely sing along. It's power. Music has real power, a direct connection through your ears, to your heart, to your emotions, your soul. I really do believe music might be the best part of being human. That's something to consider.

And then there's an artist that I haven't mentioned, and I haven't mentioned her on purpose. I was saving her for last. She's that important to me. I have goosebumps as I'm saying this. Her music, how she writes, how she sings, how she plays guitar, how she plays slide guitar. If I could, boy, I'd want to do it just the way she does. Today, we're talking the body rate.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfuss and this is WISER THAN ME. The podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

All right, so even though I love music, it's kind of hard to get me out of the house to listen to people live for some reason, I don't know. But today's guest is one artist I never miss.

One time I saw her outdoors in San Francisco, it was August, and so of course, it was freezing. And she was playing, I remember with James Taylor, and my husband said, how is she going to play? It's too cold. And she came out and she actually said, oh, God, it's fucking freezing.

And she got somebody to give her a pair of gloves that have half the finger cut out, so she was basically playing in mittens, and it didn't matter. She played so beautifully, and afterwards, I wanted to go and say hi to her, but I couldn't stop crying, so it was just too embarrassing. I've seen her over and over, and yet she still makes me cry to songs I've heard her sing a thousand times. She is the one singer who I kind of feel like she's mine.

Do you know what I mean? I have my own relationship with her music that makes me feel like more than just another fan and of course there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of her fans who feel exactly the same way. And oh my god, the way she plays guitar. Oh, she is such a distinct singular artist, whether she's playing blues or soul or rock and roll, covering something or playing one of her perfect original songs, she kills it.

You know it's her instantly. She got her first guitar when she was eight or nine and discovered she had real talent on it, a Quaker summer camp in upstate New York. Cut to decades later, BB King called her the best slide player working today. I mean, come on.

She's just all red hair and no bullshit, right? I'm so crazy about her tough, don't fuck with me, get it done attitude, all while being indisputably hot. She's navigated the music business for more than five decades, always on her own terms, and that's an industry notorious for its misogyny. When she started her own record label, she hired a team of four superstar women so that they would be the ones calling the shots.

Yup, our guest today is the Rock and Roll Hall of Famer with 18 studio albums under her belt, who's been nominated for 30 Grammy Awards and won 13 of them, including Song of the Year, which she just won last year. The Woman is a living legend, ranking on the Rolling Stones list of the greatest singers

and the list of the greatest guitars of all time, and she's absolutely the top of my list in both. And I haven't even mentioned her social activism, her political power, her devotion to original blues artists, and her extraordinary personal journey. Oh, and by the way, on her very first album, 1971, she even had a tune called Women Be Wise.

How about that? So let's welcome a woman who is so much wiser than me. Bonnie, rate. Hi, Bonnie. Hey, how are you? Julia, I don't know how I can live up to this. I'm shaking in my boots. Don't be shaking. I'm shaking. I'm so honored that you get me so deeply because it takes all of those qualities you like and me are in you and that's how we make that connection. I know that's the truth and I've seen them in you, so thank you for honoring me.

I'm already crying because I love you so much. Oh, I do. I really do. And I'm just so happy. I'm very touched. I'm for clumped myself. Well, anyway, thank you for being here today. Let me start by asking the requisite question, are you comfortable if I ask you your age?

Absolutely. Proudly 74 as of November last year. Nice. Nice. And how old do you feel, Bonnie? Oh my God. Probably 50. Uh-huh. Maybe. Maybe. I, you know, some, the wear and tear on joints from being active and injuries here and there and all that stuff. You know, just wear and tear from age is the only way I feel a little bit more.

I wouldn't say less vibrant, but it takes a little bit more to get up off the couch. I can tell that the parts are getting a little creaky, little worn. I'm trying to keep a soft tissue and the spirit still gooey.

smart, but are the parts getting, I mean, you still do what you want to do physically or are you? Yes. Yes. And I work at it. I mean, I try to do yoga at least three times a week and I hike and I move around and try not to sit around too much, but it's, yeah, it's 74 is different than 64.

And, you know, we'll all have to keep lifting each other up through these rough times, because that's the part that beats us down more than gravity, I think. Yeah. You know, the cruelty and the suffering and the war and the endless stupidity and what are you kidding? I think that works you out. Beats down the spirit. It's harder to get up off the spiritual couch when you get that pounding you down. Oh, I like that. I like that. What do you think is the best part about being your age?

I really think that you're more relaxed about the things that could bother you a lot more. The triggers, you recognize that you get reactive and trigger and it's just not worth the agita, you know. Yes. It's not healthy for you. Right. It doesn't end up, you know, harboring resentments, harboring

anger and keep stuffing it and not saying how you really feel. That works to get you in the world, but somehow I can't separate the fact that I've been, I'm in a tremendously lucky position of having enough power to be self-powered, you know, in the business. I mean, I run my own ship with a great team, but

I don't work for anybody and I don't have to answer to anybody and I'm living in a time when women can carve their own destinies a lot more than my mother's generation even. Right. So I think I've earned the ability to be more relaxed from 36 years of work in a sobriety program but also spiritual and therapy and some of it is just the age. I can't separate

The times were in from having been a feminist. I mean, if we were fighting what women had to fight in the 1930s. Oh, please. I probably looked like my grandmother did when she was 74. It was tougher to be a woman before. And I think we know more.

We know how to get out of situations that are really unpleasant and not working. We're wiser. And we get the hell out of that situation and stop hanging out with people that are draining us. Right. And that's a wisdom that hopefully could come earlier. But for me, it took a long time. Right. So every decade, I'm more, I'm not putting up with any more of this crap. And I'm more comfortable where I'm at. And if I'm not comfortable, it's up to me to move out of the way.

So it sounds like you've found a way of being more sanguine about either certain things that may be used to bother you and now you can let them go. And if they really bother you and they deserve attention, you handle it, you know, sort of maybe without apology, by the way.

That was very well spoken. But yeah, I think that I'm better at that than I was. I'm less at the mercy of other people. And I've heard a lot of women on your podcast and heard a lot of other women that I admire and read their books and have friends that are older than me. And they also have told me they are just more comfortable with themselves than they used to be.

I've heard you differentiate before between capital B Bonnie and lowercase B Bonnie. Can you explain the difference between? I mean, I have a feeling I know what you mean, but will you tell us what you mean between those two types of Bonnie? Yes, and that's that's diving deep early on, but why not? Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. The way those two uppercase and lowercase came up for me was in being asked about

the balance of my life, you know, what bugs you and what bugs me is

and what has driven a lot of, as I've learned over the years with therapy and in sobriety working on my programs and finding out, trying to analyze why I do what I do and why I was moved to overindulge in this or pick the wrong partner or why do I, you know, why have I been the way that I've been when it's clearly not working? And that's something that comes with age, but one of the problems that I recognized early on was ever since I was little, I really

got more strokes and attention and love by performing outside of my family unit at school, even for my relatives. I became Bonnie the cute little redhead with temples that if I did a little Shirley Temple tap dancer and then later, you know, if I played the guitar for my folks friends, I got a lot of positive attention.

By being extroverted and I think that red-headed personality thing, you're born with that color here and you're supposed to grow into it. So I got what I didn't get at home by being big Bonnie, and I'll say that that became later.

when I became professional, I'm more comfortable on stage. And I always wondered why, why when I come off stage, I don't have the same self esteem or lack of self judgment. So I was beating myself up a lot and privately as a little girl when I went back. And so I wonder when that started, I was never that comfortable when I wasn't performing the version of myself that well, good little girl or the cute girl or the talented girl or the all A's or the

Daddy's little girl and you know not caused too much of a ruckus and then when I was just back in my room I would pour my heart out and play the guitar and just sing these sad ballads and Longing and and look in the mirror and hate what I saw you know so I had a double life early on and I have to be careful now that I don't

let that schism happen. And remember, the metaphor of the Wizard of Oz being found out to be just a regular man, you know, paying attention to the man behind the curtain, the best movie ever, the best. I totally related to that because I have been given this mantle of so much power and responsibility. And I look, I look so badass to everybody, but I'm really not as

like that. And in my private life, I have to really wrestle who that is in the ground and see, don't spend too much time just stoking the BR machinery. Otherwise, you lose who you are when you're just a smaller case.

Well, that is just fascinating. And I think that that, well, there are two things I need to say. One is, I think even in my own life as a performer, obviously I don't do what you do, but when I perform, there is a, it's like a hit of something and it's very,

delicious and intoxicating, right? It's intoxicating. And I love it. I love it. But it isn't who I am either. I mean, it is who I am, but it's not

The whole thing at all and you know when I walk into a room people expect me just to be funny yep and I'm not I mean I have a funny bone I have a sense of humor, but I'm not like you know

Shecky green going off. You know what I'm saying? I'm not. But that thing, I know what you're talking about. They bump up against each other when you're a performer, right? They really do. I completely get that. The other thing I just wanted to mention is because you mentioned The Wizard of Oz, which is like top five movie for me of all time. I agree. And it's an incredible, every time I watch that movie, I die. I cry so hard. It's so beautiful.

Have you ever heard Judy Garland's, there was a scene in the movie that they cut in which she sings somewhere over the rainbow when she's being held in the castle by the witch and evidently, but listen, Bonnie, seriously, you've got to find it because you'll start crying. It is so gut wrenching because she can barely get through it. She's weeping so much and they decided to cut it because it was too sad. But if you hear it, you will hear what a magnificent

performer she is, which you already knew, of course, but it is an elevated performance of that tune. So do me a favor and look for that, okay, or have somebody find that. Thank you for telling me about that because I immediately get her vulnerability and her voice for all the strength that she had. Right. That's why so many people relate to her. That's right. There is a real vulnerability.

Oh my gosh, it's just, and to be put through what she was put through as a child. Uppers and downers and dance for this. Right, exactly.

Do you feel pressure to create? Do you feel frustration when you're not creating what's? Oh, no, here you go. Here's where the rubber hits the road. I am frustrated not being on tour. Oh, there's nothing like what happens on stage. Nothing like it. I mean, I make records so I can tour. My dad loved it till the day he stopped performing at 86 years old. And he only mostly stopped because his audience was

passed away. But I'm telling you that I am frustrated when I'm not, it's not the adulation of the crowd, it's the gang comrade re-it's the travel. It's the waking up in a different city in a new opening night, every night, show those people you still got it.

I love, since I was 20 years old, being on the road. So when I'm home, I have a satisfying, beautiful life here. I live where I want to live. I got a small circle of chosen family friends. And I'm healthy and I'm lucky, but I really miss what happens playing with other people on the road. Right. I mean, playing by myself is not as satisfying. But do you play every day? No, I only play when I get ready to tour.

You really, you see, you're not sitting around noodling on the guitar or the piano at home? No. No way, really. I'm too busy managing the big career of this woman who wears my name. So the business of being Bonnie Rade is taking up a lot of my time and I'm glad to do it and answer as diplomatically and kindly when I can't do a benefit or I can't sing on someone's record.

or I can't write a blurb. And when I hear a song that I really love and I want to do it live, then I pick up the guitar and learn it. I mean, I'm not one of those, when I was a teenager, I just played all the time. Right. But I don't do that so much anymore.

But now I'm, now I'm planned for fun and I got to get my calluses going again. Yeah. I did my vocal warmup today and I'm singing on a session after we dock on this podcast. I'm singing on someone's record. So I'm getting that fire is gone again and my fingers are going, where is it? Where is it?

My son is a musician, and he's always noodling and writing. I mean, he's young, of course. And he wanted me to ask you, how written out beforehand are your solos? Are they fully improvised on the day or notated beforehand? I wouldn't know how to notate a solo. I didn't take guitar lessons, so I don't know how to read music. But I took a little piano lessons. Right. But I do everything by ear pretty much. I just sort of make chord charts when I'm learning a new song.

but I play mostly by ear, but yeah, it's pretty spontaneous. And if, when I'm making a record, I like to get it as live as possible in the first or second take. So minimal rehearsal, just pick the key, learn the lyric, you know, I get lyrics in front of me so I can just be present and get the band and I rockin' on this tune. And then later I do my guitar solo, so I might do three or four takes. But when I piece together from two or different takes, if I wanna make a combo,

A lot of times I start with that as the scaffolding for the solos on tour. I'm not a big jam. I'm not a big jam stretch out for three or four times around. I'd rather play more songs in the set and save the guitar duels for the rockers. Then I turn to my other guitar player and we just let her rip for a while. So that's fun. That's so fun.

So you took piano, I think you said for five years when you were little? Yes, good memory. And I took piano for two years and then I quit when my piano teacher hit me if you can believe it.

Are you serious? That bitch hit me. I want to hit her back. Like Sidney Poitier to serve with love. And not to serve with love. And in the heat of the night when he slapped Rod Steiger. Yeah, unbelievable. But anyway, so that was the end of my piano lessons. But you wanted to play like rock tunes and stuff of the day. And I guess they wouldn't let you do that or what.

No, no, I love taking my piano lessons. My teacher passed away and I also fell in love with the guitar and I was playing the guitar more. And I got enough out of the piano. I only want to learn piano enough so that I could back myself up and play theme from Exodus.

pop songs, you know, I had my mom was my dad's musical director and rehearsal. That's right. And so we had racks and racks of drawers of alphabetized sheet music. And I would just come on when it wasn't time for me to learn my classical piece. I would play, you know, Richard Rogers songs, you know, or if ever, I would leave. I do all the Broadway songs and I would play by ear and sing along with them. So I'm so lucky that I grew up with two incredible music parents.

And let me ask you something, how do you know when a song is the right fit for you? Does it hit you in the gut right away? Do you know instantly? I pretty much know when I hear a song that I love so much that I just want to sing it. I mean, it started when we're little and Joan Baez, I was one thing to fall in love with that first Joan Baez or Odetta record, but I just had

I had to sing and play it, not for performing it, but just to take in the communing with her. Yeah. Something about the song where it wasn't enough to just hear her do it. And it wasn't about her as much as it was just what that made me feel. I wanted to make myself feel. So I would sing for myself. And I'm still, when I hear a song that I go nuts over, I go, man, we're gonna kill that.

And you know right away. You know right away. That's so interesting because I have the, I mean, just like reading a script, for example, if you know, you know, it's a gut feeling. It's like, oh, I, I have to do this is the feeling. I have to do this. I have to just do a sidetrack and say, you hurt my feelings is so great. Thank you.

It is so fantastic as are all your performances. I just adore you. So don't get me started. Thank you so much. But I'll bet you when you read that script, you said.

I have to do this. Well, I'll tell you interestingly, first of all, what's so uncanny is that you mentioned that because your voice, if I close my eyes, your voice sounds a lot like Nicole Hall of Center's voice, who's the director and writer. But when I sat down with Nicole before she'd even written the script and she said,

She told me the premise being that a woman who's a writer who relies on her husband, they're madly in love with one another for his support. And when he says he likes something, obviously he likes something of hers. And then she only finds out that the film is about her finding out that he's been lying to her about her work and he actually hates it.

It's so profound. No, my God. It's so profound. I mean, so much that I almost wanted to go ask everybody in my life that is, are you, have you been lying to me? It's very risky to do it with your romantic partner, though. No shit. I like to keep them kind of separate for that reason, because I don't want to know. Yeah, I don't want to be asked what my opinion is of what they're doing or the other way around. I just, they go, sounds great.

We have to take a really quick break. My conversation with Bonnie Rake continues in just a bit.

If there's one thing wise women will tell you, it's that taking care of yourself is not selfish, it's essential, and nothing is more essential than sleep. This year, make better sleep your New Year's resolution with cozy Earth's best-selling bedding. Their incredible bamboo sheet sets are made from 100% premium viscose from bamboo, which means it's ultra soft, breathable, and keeps you cool all night long.

And if you're looking for pajamas to match, their bamboo pajamas set is super lightweight, luxurious, and designed to help you sleep. Degrees cooler than cotton. It's a lovely way to upgrade your nighttime routine. There's truly nothing better than slipping into buttery smooth, freshly clean sheets after a long day. But it's so disappointing when those same sheets start pilling or lose their softness after just a few uses.

That's why Cozy Earth prides itself on having durable weave fabric that won't pill. They believe in quality so much that Cozy Earth's spreading products have a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty. You can't go wrong. A better year starts with better sleep. Wrap yourself in Cozy Earth. Don't wait. Head to CozyEarth.com slash Wiser Now and use our exclusive code Wiser for up to 40% off.

That's cozyearth.com slash wiser. If you get a post purchase survey, say you heard about cozy earth from the wiser than me podcast. Hey, wiser than me listeners is Julia here with some very exciting news. We have teamed up with Cadis, the California based maker of high quality custom eyewear to bring you exclusive wiser than me reader frames. How cool is that?

I personally handpicked the frame, the color, and added a very special phrase engraved right on top. It says, get wise. Isn't that fabulous? So you can feel the wisdom flowing every time you wear them. So head to wisethemyshop.com and check out the Caddis Collection to grab yours now.

Now your record company, your label is called Red Wing, right? Yes. First of all, why is it called Red Wing? Because of this shock of hair on the side, it goes down and then I put a little white streak in the bird wing and the little logo, it's like the red wing with the little white streak. I love that. Which I've had since I was 24 by the way, just showed up out of the blue and I've had that white streak and when I finally, it's 31 and my red hair kind of faded a little bit. Yeah.

It was still just that one white streak and I tried dying it when I died my whole head and I just went, you know, I'm used to this thing being here. It felt weird.

So people always ask me, why do you dye your hair white? I go, because it's the only real color that's been there all this time. I just never touched it. It's so chic. It's so unusual. I love everything about it. Oh, thank you. And as a matter of fact, you'll be, you'll get a kick out of this. I'm doing a Marvel movie and you are? Yeah. But listen to this, I'm wearing hair with a streak in it in the front.

Get out of here, fantastic. Swear to God. I've been told by someone that said, oh, it means you've been kissed by an angel, so just wear that when you. Oh, I've been kissed by an angel. Can I tell you something, Bonnie? I'm going to use that line in the movie. Can I use it? Good. Yes. I'm going to tell you this. It was the hospice nurse that was there with my dad when he passed away in the palisades. She said, I've always left that white streak. You know it means you've been kissed by an angel.

Oh, I love hospice workers. As she opens the window when my dad passed away and let his spirit out. I mean, whoa, I said, OK, I'm going to take. I'm taking that. And I'm going to be kissed by an angel. That's why I have the white streak. Oh, my God.

I mean, it wasn't at the exact moment. It's just mean that was the same person who was kind of connected to the other realms in a way that when you are blessed enough to be able to be with a loved one as they're getting ready to go. Yes. And those angels, those saints, those hospice nurses are there helping you get through it.

She just said, does anyone mind if I open the window? And then he passed away and she, you know, she said, I like to let the spirit out, you know, and I just was, it was so moving to me. It wasn't anything I would question, because she was an incredibly empathetic, compassionate, wonderful nurse that helped. Not only my dad, but the whole family get through that. You know, I think hospice workers are the most

admirable, the most tender, my dad passed away with hospice workers, and I have the same experience, although now having heard this about the window, I should have opened the window, but I know his spirit definitely found a way out of the house. Anyway,

I mean, we're all over the place, which is good. That means we're- Oh, we were talking about my record company. Oh, yeah. So, wait a minute. So, obviously, songwriting, generally speaking, is a male-dominated field. And I think, isn't it? Is it not? I don't think so. Well, you would know better than I. I thought it was. Well, I'm just saying that-

I'm not a country music artist but I was surprised with this amount of zillions of streams and appreciation of so many women artists in the country field that it turned out that for a couple of decades they were mostly just playing guys.

on the radio. And I couldn't understand what that gap was, you know, like we can't understand the wage gap. Are you still, are you kidding? Right. Still there. Yeah. But no, I think, I mean, Joni Mitchell, and there's so many great, Carol King, great singer-songwriters and artists have always been instrumentalists as well. But when you're writing a song, Bonnie, is it important to you to write a song through a female lens? I mean,

No, I don't even think about that. You don't think about gender, you're just writing.

Well, when I sing Angel from Montgomery, some of my strongest songs have been written by men about women. That nobody's girl is a beautiful song from Nick of Time, Larry John McNally. And oh my god, there's a whole slew of them that are so inside what women are feeling. There's a song of mine on longing in their hearts called All At Once. So it was the first time I wrote in the third person about a woman that had a fight with her daughter.

and a teenage daughter. And it was just like a short story. And that really felt good to write and sing from a woman's point of view. So I sing from women's point of view, women view wise. Keep your mouth shut. Don't advertise your man.

Yeah, I love those lyrics. Oh, thank you. I think I written a lot of really strong songs lyrics about that is incredible. I mean, I was just relistening to that yesterday and then this morning and every time I hear it, I cry. I lay my head upon his chest. I was with my boy again. I mean. Thank you, thank you. I watched that go down on TV. A news team brought a crew for a woman to meet

the man who had her son's heart. And that just inspired me. I mean, I wrote a story about a woman who actually caused the death of her child because she was looking the other way. And she just was so ashamed and so horrified. She just disappeared. And there was no way for her ever to have found any redemption. You know, she was just one of those people that that crazy lady down the street with the blinds closed and that this guy who had her son's heart that she didn't even know was donated, spent all this time to find her.

But anyway, the answer, there are a lot more songs I sing from a woman's point of view. I should probably say I write from a woman's point of view and not not. I just don't think about it consciously. I understand. Well, I mean, it's your experience as a woman. So that's why you don't think about it consciously, I would imagine. But I mean, also, I wanted to mention too, that your cover of

baby mine. Oh, I love that one. So I have to say that when I was listening to that on repeat, when I had my first son, and by the way, produced by Don and Gemma are good friends of ours. Oh, of course, they would be good friends of yours. Aren't they the greatest? The greatest. Oh, and Sheila, I know, because I knew Sheila more because she booked me for David Letterman. Oh,

My God, speaking of which, do you know we met on Letterman? Yes, we did. I remember, I was going, God, she's just built like a rocket ship. I just remember loving you, but then going, man, I am gonna work out more. No, stop it. I was so inspired. I remember being thrilled that we were on at the same time. Oh my God, me too. And I have a picture, I just have to show you. Here it is. And I mean, I know our listeners can't see, how do I get this big here? Can you see, how do I do this?

I can see it. Oh, sweet. Oh my God. Isn't that fun? Are we, are we foxes or what? We are stone cold fucking foxes. I love it. And I was so happy that you are, you know, friends with Jane and Fonda. Yeah. Yeah. You're political. And I just, I love who you are in the world too. So, you know, we're going to go on and on like this. People were going to just shake their head and go, you guys just make a date and sleep together.

it over with. Yeah, well, fuck them. We're not, I mean, we're doing what we want to do. We can talk about anything we want. What was it like being on the road all the time with men? Was it great? Did you love it? Did they drive you crazy? All of the above? No, no, I loved it. But I have two brothers, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a girly girl anyway. So it was really fun. I was kind of a tomboy. I never identified with, you know, hair and makeup and

I just wasn't into shopping and I didn't want to be a wife and mother. I just want it from the get go is from the get go. Yeah. Gidget was a big role model from when that book and movie came out when she was not accepted in a man's world of surfing and then she got really good at it. Yes, you're the Gidget.

Yeah. And then I've also said this on interviews, but I really loved Amanda Blake because she had red hair and she owned the saloon and she didn't have to get married, but they were way in love. And I just thought that was so cool because

A lot of women, the mothers of my friends in LA when I was growing up, somehow in the middle of our teen years, a lot of them were getting dumped. You know, the husbands were marrying younger women. Uh-huh. You know, either the what wives later, I realized might have been pre-menopausal. Yeah. When the kids, you know, my dad left my mom when we were on, when I was 19 and found a younger woman that he was closer with. I mean, I don't know what went on between them closed doors, but

Parenting teenagers can put a lot of stress on a relationship sure and my dad was away a lot and you know my mom was

You know, it was difficult. And so I just got the message where I just don't want to have to depend on any guy. You know, I just rather be way in love, but stay independent and be the, not the other woman like breaking up people's homes. Even before feminism, I didn't want to have that model of being married and living in the suburbs and having kids. Did you get pushed back on that from anybody?

No, didn't. I was just naturally a little, a tough girl, you know, and I adopted that blues mama persona early on with my band Jump Ahead from teenage years to my first album. I couldn't stand the way I sang because it was so fruity and I wanted to sound like Edda James and it wasn't going to happen. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You couldn't stand it? No idea.

I hated it, hated it, hated it. But I love doing it. I just didn't like listening to it. So I would adopt this kind of swagger and drink and smoke and talk. I mean, I listened to some bootleg live shows of my early folk days where I was just like, who was I? I adopted a persona as if I was somebody that did own a saloon.

Can you listen back to your music or you can't? Is it hard for you to listen? I mean, that's, you're talking about your first album in the early days, but is it hard for you to listen back? I have great affection and compassion and a lot of great memories of who she was back then, you know. I'm proud of, proud of the music that I made, but do I like listening to my voice? Not really. I mean, maybe as I got older, I could like it more. Yeah. Yeah, you're about you. And when you see, when you see yourself do you,

cringe when you see early footage of yourself? I don't like it. I got to tell you, Bonnie. I don't like it. Yeah. I really don't. I'm very... I mean, there are a few exceptions, but I'm pretty judgy about it. And I just watch mistakes. I see mistakes I'm making.

Oh, no, it's true. I do, which is, you know, but I mean, I like certain things. There are certain bits and bobs I can watch, but for the most part, I would say I just sort of wince. Yeah, I have a lot of that too. I know exactly what you mean. And here's the thing that I found out. Yes. How about when you think

you're making a cool-looking face at the camera. Oh, please. You see the results and you look like you're just trying to go to the bathroom. You look like such a dumbass. I know, it's funny you say that because somebody posted something of me on Instagram or somewhere. Anyway, it was some red carpet event and I had gotten it in my head that I smiled too much on the red carpet.

I'm right with you where you're going with this. And so I'm standing there and I'm sort of looking over my shoulder and sort of like a slightly open mouth and I'm not smiling. And I look like a... I'm comatose in the picture.

I just, I mean, it's really so embarrassing. I just had to just look at a whole bunch of shots where I could have sworn I was, or even live shots now. I'm editing, helping pick the promo pictures for the Austin City limits show we cut. All these shots of me playing guitar, they just look hideous. I mean, I'm never, now I'm going to be self-conscious about how I play.

Oh, no, you must be. I don't want to be. I just want to wear a COVID mask and just make whatever face I want. Let me explain to you something. When you have that guitar on, nobody holds a guitar like you. Nobody has swagger like you do. It is incredible. So under no circumstances are you allowed to do a head game on yourself about holding that guitar? I will not permit it.

Well, the guitar part's fine. I just have to make sure that I'm not making the face that I just saw in about 10 photos. But your voice has changed as you've gotten older. It's gotten a little bit deeper, is it? I guess. I mean, I think that happens naturally. Yeah. It happens. You get lower, you get more notes down below as you get older and

It sounds as I warm up more. Yeah. Oh, thank you. No, I feel like I have more agility and I know that I have to say when I look at my pals, Jackson Brown and Bruce Hornsby, Bruce Springsteen, like a lot of people, men and women that are touring now, their voices have never been better. And it's really great because we're not 50, we're like 70. It's fantastic, it's a huge benefit to aging.

Isn't it? And look at Tony Bennett and Willie and BB. I mean, my dad was singing his butt off when he was in his 80s. Incredible. I mean, when people go, are you going to retire? I go, why would I retire? Why would you do that? No, keep going. Never stop. Never stop. Actually, I'm circling back to something because I really did want to ask you all these fabulous people in blues, women in particular, and Sippy Wallace.

And I know you talk about her like she was your grandmother. I do need to know what, because she was like a wise old lady for you, correct? Yeah, exactly. And I hung out all my 20s with these people who are like my age now. Yeah. So what kind of, if you recall, what kind of wisdom did she impart to you? What did you learn from her?

Well, I'll tell you what was great was that she had all of the inherent swagger still, but she was bemused. And I don't think that when you're in your 20s, you're bemused by men's bad behavior.

You know, in her case, you know, if somebody should have paid royalties and she wasn't, you know, she was just really happy to be appreciated. And she would just sit and listen to us clowning around in the dressing room, you know, and she would just, I just looked over to her and she was like, not winking, but almost. She was bemused and relaxed and having the time of her life. And she said, man, I want to get to that Yoda place. Muddy was like that.

Johnny Hooker was like that. A lot, Fred McDowell, Mrs. Sippy, Fred McDowell. Sippy Walls, you know, when you're talking about Ruth Brown, who got did get ripped off and built Atlantic Records, she was from a different generation. In the 50s, she kind of built Atlantic Records. She was pissed, so you don't cross her. But Sippy was, for me as a young woman, to get to be with somebody that was so

wise about men, and she said, you can make me do what you want to do, but you got to know how. That was one of the songs of hers. I picked her songs because, you know, the feminists would say, what do you mean women be wise, keep your mouth set, don't advertise your man? That if you talk about yours, they're gonna come up and steal them. Well, excuse me, that's what happens, you know? Well, women don't do that to each other. I go, oh, really? What world are you living in? Right, exactly.

You're gonna brag on why somebody's so to great lover and then you're surprised when you're on the road and they take a little taste. Come on. But, you know, first of all, that's so funny because you're sort of describing her and her way of being sort of bemused and it sounds like relaxed. It's kind of how you're describing yourself right now to a certain extent, right? I hope I reached the sippy wallace level of bemusement.

Because, really, you've got to just sit back and go, it's all, it's out of my control, but I'm not sure. I mean, there's a different layer, there's layers of political stuff that are on top of being alive now that I don't know whether any bemusement would be what I would call any, you know. But I'm just saying, in her as a young woman, she was

Just, she was like, what I'm aspiring to feel like now? Like, okay. She's okay. She's okay. Yeah. She's like, she's sitting with it all. She's sitting with it all. She can breathe deep. Breathe deep. Funny, present, bring it when she needs to, you know. Right. And she just, she didn't seem to care about what people thought about her. Yes. All that stuff that, but I mean, we're tyrannized by the weight thing, by the,

You know, am I pretty enough? I know. Believe me. What about ageism? Oh. Yeah, talk about that, Bonnie.

I think in my folk Americana wing of the music business, we only get more legendary and people respect us more as we get older. I don't see the discrimination that leading ladies got in my dad's business when Connie Towers and other people turned 50 and other actresses. They were over.

And so in my world, I did not face sexism or ageism, but I did face men in the beginning not liking to be told that I was self-managed, that I was the music director of my albums when I couldn't, you know, that was odd to be told

what you were doing not correctly or you'd like somebody to do it differently in the studio when I couldn't play that instrument as well as they could. So like, who were you who died and made you the boss? So how did you talk about that? I mean, how did you manage that?

Put a touch around that. Yeah. You know, first of all, you try to get, make sure you're only in the room with people that have a lot of respect for you. And most of that time, and that was the case. There was like one record where I was with a lot of really heavy hitters in New York, and I was only 24. And there was an actual producer, Jerry Ragavoy. And so what I would do, oftentimes it would be a partnership and when something tricky needed to be said, sometimes I would ask him to

rephrase it. He'd be like my secretary of state. Uh huh. Yeah. He was the diplomat. He was a UN ambassador that went in and said, what she means to say here is, uh huh. Sounds great. It sounds great. But did you ever have any self doubt?

Or did you stand pretty firm or sort of a combo? Probably a combo, I would think. When it comes to music, my ears tell me when something's working. I cannot lie. If it doesn't sound right, if the groove's too rushed,

or the playing, that track wasn't it. I have to be completely honest. And I trust that implicitly since the beginning. I can tell when it's the right take. And pretty much the people that I picked to work with, they feel the same way. So I haven't had a lot of pushback on that.

The pushback sometimes is in the record company where they don't like to see a woman represent themselves. And if you say, how come you don't put enough records in the stores after I just sold out that city? They don't like to hear that from the artists. So they want to have an intermediate and it's usually a guy. Incredible. Stay put. My conversation with Bonnie Rate continues in just a moment.

So I want to talk a little bit about the relationship between art and pain, especially in music, you know, because there's this mythology around the sort of the out of control lifestyle and the

and pain and then elevated artistry as a result of that. I mean, you've talked about confronting this about when you were talking about getting sober on your sobriety journey. Were you afraid that when you got sober that it would be harder to make music or to perform? Did you have confidence about that? How were you feeling?

It's interesting. I haven't been asked this in a very long time and it's interesting when we started out speaking about the upper case and lower case.

I was worried that by personally becoming more at peace and serene and well, that I wouldn't, the edge that I had, that the suffering, that the anger and the resentment and the betrayal, and I'm singing all of your pain. I'm singing for you. I'm going through it too, and I had this bad relationship.

I picked all those relationships so I could be authentic when I sang about pain. But I'm just saying that what happens when you get out of

agony and you're not suffering anymore and you're not paying what if you what if it doesn't sound as authentic when you're up there trying to play and in fact it was just as if the windshield was clearer and I could be more authentically me and feel even stronger and I watched Stevie Ray Vaughan come out of rehab and he was worried about whether he'd be able to play it the same whether he had the same fire where where's the source of that fire

Is it suffering and pain and self-doubt and all of those even existential questions? And it turns out that the miracle that happens when you can be coming from a different place that's not inauthentic or phony or a crutch of becoming somebody else or putting in chemicals to try to be that other person.

you can be like the wizard actually came up with the solutions all by himself without being behind there. So that was what was beautiful. And for me, singing, singing my songs straight, because I didn't sing in my shows messed up. I kind of waited till after the show to get high. So it wasn't that different. But being the person that I became when I was more authentically okay with the smaller case me only made the bigger case me stronger, I think, and more

in compelling and more passionate. And the suffering is right there. I can remember what those pain, when I sing, I can't make you love me. It's as if I just went through it. It's like what the, like you said, the wizard says, you had it all along. It was, you know. That is what, I just got goosebumps from that. That's what I think I want to know. I want to know that I had it all along. Yeah. That I don't have to put it on. It's not a role that I'm playing.

You know, and so it's a beautiful thing to just feel so in your moment when I'm singing and playing music and it's working. It's like you when you're doing your thing and it's just perfect. It's the ultimate. It's the ultimate. Melding of what you were supposed to be doing on this earth this time and I know what a gift it is. So I'm not gonna cheapen it and mess it up. Right, right, right. That's good. That makes me happy to hear.

We were talking about it earlier with your dad in hospice. Grief is obviously a subject that comes up a lot on this show because, you know, we have women who have lived a long time. Therefore, they've lost important people in their lives. Has music helped you process your grief?

Absolutely. It is probably the longing for what I wish I could have in love or didn't get as a little kid. That's not grief, but it's longing and the loss of so many.

things in my life that I didn't cherish at the time. Well, I just mean relationships that because I'm on the road all the time, I wish I had nurtured more. You know, that's something we all kick ourselves for. But the loss of so many people has been, when I go to sing now, I sing dimming of the day for my brother Steve. And I wrote this rocker song with my guitar player. I put the words to it called, I'm living for the ones who didn't make it.

You know, and that helps to get the rockers actually get the energy out as much as the sad songs. But the angel from Montgomery, I mean, wipes me out. I mean, there's so many different songs that have aching them.

Uh-huh. And grief is a big part of that because it's been part of my life the last 20 years especially. Yeah, right. So it's cathartic that way, right, Bonnie? Absolutely. And I know the audience is feeling that. And when I sing just like that, I try not to make eye contact with the people in the audience, but the guys in the band will tell me there was people sobbing in the front, you know.

You know, or I've gotten letters from a woman that have said, I've never seen my husband cry. We've been married 40 years. And when you sing, I turn and look at him and he was crying. I can't make you love me. Oh, yeah. So I know that I'm holding a really holy space on those songs like Angel from Montgomery and

You know the feisty ones I'm holding that space and you know when you're asking about do I write from women's point of view You know yeah, I've written a whole lot of songs, you know meet me halfway I stand and buy the same old love down to you There's a whole bunch of tunes baby. Don't you know I'm on your side that are about

I even though we were finished talking about it, I just went, I'm standing up for these positions, these lyrics that I pick. I'm standing up for those people in the audience that need to say that to their partners and a lot of them are women. So yeah, I mean, I take back saying I don't think about gender. I think about me, but because I'm a woman, I'm speaking about, well, meet me halfway. I mean, that's your default position. That's where you are.

I like that you use the word holy because I think your music is holy. Oh, thank you. I do. It feels that way when I'm singing it.

Thank you for receiving it. It really means a lot. I do. I totally receive it with the open arms. What a dream. Can you imagine how it feels for me to be off the road since October and have my first time being me again be with you receiving me with such... I mean, I knew you were a fan, but not to the extent

of soul connection that we have, and so many things line up, you know, and all the important ways. The real things. And I admire you so much for you to like me, it's just, it's really, it's mutual. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Tell me, I'm gonna just take this moment to ask a couple very quick questions that I like to ask the ladies when we're talking on the show.

Is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21? Oh, wow. Try to pick partners that are more your peers than someone that's just feeding what you need and companionship and being okay. See if you can make more of parity in the decision. And that's hard to do when you travel all the time. But that's good advice.

But I wish I had relationships with people that were really even on many, many levels. And those are the ones that had a shot. And when I aimed lower and just sort of like filled up on fast food for that desire. And I was holding out for the higher one later. Well, next thing you know, I would have liked to have known that sooner.

Okay, that's really good advice. What are you looking forward to, Bonnie? Oh, gosh. Oh, peace, sanity, coming together, putting aside our differences and an end to this

a redirect of the road we're on onto one that's more solid and more loving and more compassionate and more just. And may we be at peace? May I be at peace? May I find a way to be effective? And I'm looking forward to making a difference if I can help make that happen. That's the future I want to see. Well, that's the perfect way to end this conversation.

Well, I'm a basket case. I am too. I am too. I'm going to go sing on a record by the man who co-wrote, I can't make you love me. And the wonderful Joe Henry that produced eight songs I've put out on the last few albums.

one of my favorite songwriters, and the two of them are collaborating on a record together, and I'm gonna go finally get to pay back to Mike Reed by singing on his, he sings like an angel. I mean, he's got, you know how Michael McDonald's voice is unearthly beautiful? Mike Reed, he's made several albums of his own, he's just so, but for a former Cincinnati bangle football player to have come up with the music for I Can Make You Love Me,

And with Alan Shamlin to come up with that, don't patronize me. Don't patronize me. It's extraordinary. Oh my God. Oh my God. So you're going to that now. And I'm going to take this lump in my throat that you've carefully honed for the last two hours. And I'm going to use that and sing on this beautiful song that they did together. Oh, I'm so happy. Oh, I'm so happy. I can't wait to hear it. I need to. I can't wait and just think now it doesn't exist.

And in a couple hours, it will always exist. All right. It's amazing. All right. I can't wait to see you again and make a difference together and have a blast and laugh and hike and do all that stuff. OK. We are one. We are one. Bonnie Ray, the most wonderful, the most authentic. Julia. Oh, thank you for everything. Thank you, Julia. I love you too. Love you. Love you too. Bye.

Oh my god, I love her. I'm like lying on the floor. Bonny rate, wow. Okay, I gotta get my mom on Zoom so I can tell her all about this.

Hi, Mama. You look so nice with your red lipstick. Oh, thank you. I put some red lipstick on. What do you think of it? I love it. I think it's chic. Thank you. Sometimes I usually see old ladies with red lips, and I couldn't ever decide if I thought it was good or bad. I'll tell you when it's bad. It's bad when the lipstick's out of bounds. As soon as the lipstick goes out of bounds, that's a big red flag. Pull over and get that fixed.

Yeah. But this is a lipstick that's very dry. So in other words, have I done it right? Yes, it looks perfect. OK, good. Put your mouth closer to the screen. Let me see. Oh, yeah. Mom, it's good. Done good. Yeah, it's very good. All right. Well, that's all we have time for today. So much for activism and the good of the planet.

Okay, so I just had a very lengthy conversation with Bonnie Ray who is a hero of mine and I have to tell you that I started the intro and I could feel that I was just going to lose it. I knew I was going to start crying from the second I started to talk to her.

And I felt that way through the entire interview and I actually did cry a number of times talking about her and her music and what she's meant to me but it was so mom can we talk about trying not to cry have you.

Have you ever been in a position where you were trying not to cry and you couldn't get your shit together and you did and it was like, I'm not saying it was bad that I was crying talking to her, but that it was awkward or anything like that?

Yeah, there was one time when I met Carl Sandberg's daughter. And I just started to cry. I mean, I was so overwhelmed with being close to somebody that was a daughter of Carl Sandberg that I felt like I was sort of in this state of grace. But it came as a surprise. I mean, I didn't expect it. And I couldn't stop that feeling of overwhelmed

sort of both joy and melancholy. I don't know how to explain it, but it was, it was in retrospect, it was wonderful to feel that way. Yeah. Feeling the glory of the world. Right. Letting the glory of the world come in through a person. Totally. Yeah. Did she, did she respond? Was she, was it awkward or was she happy to receive that or what would you recall? One of the songs that we

sang in those days because we love folk music was the Colorado Trail. And Carl Sandberg wrote it. And we had literally been singing at the night before. And I started to tell her that. I couldn't tell her. I couldn't say it because it was so overwhelmed.

Oh, that's so good. That makes me feel better about today. I didn't know that Bonnie was a big hero of yours. Tell me about that. Well, her music has been a part of my life of, you know, from being a teenager forward. And she is an unusual

singer and songwriter in that she's a woman, and she plays blues guitar like nobody's business. And she sings soulfully. Her style of music speaks to me. You know how you have certain styles that you love. I love her style of musicianship. And she's very, she's just a remarkable person and

We were talking about the holiness of her music and I think her music is holy. So it was just, it was really intense and just incredibly heartwarming and I love her to death. You know, there are some things that go beyond words and something that happens to us when we're in contact with those people or what they represent to us or what they've said that means something to us, but there are people that are

I guess in a way, better than life or who just have opened you up to certain things. I mean, what can you say? It's just, you know, your body and soul just is like, wow. I know. I know. Exactly. Exactly. Well, Mommy, I'm going to talk to you again later very soon, as a matter of fact, because I'm coming to visit you. But thanks for talking now. I love you. And I love you. And don't start crying when you see me.

I don't know, do you? I'd love to be that figure for you. You are, Mom. You are. Yeah, much love. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha

There's more wiser than me with Lemonade Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following Wiser than me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me. And we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me Podcast.

Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zara-Williams, Alex McOwen, and Oha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of new content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, and me.

The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts, and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

Hey, wiser than me listeners, we want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best. And even better, once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a $100 Visa gift card.

The survey is short and sweet and will help us play ads you don't want to skip and keep bringing you content you love. Just go to lemonautomedia.com slash survey lemonautomedia.com slash survey.