Founder-led sales to targeted marketing: A step-by-step guide for early-stage B2B companies.: For B2B startups, understanding customers through founder-led sales is crucial in the early stages. Gradually switch to targeted marketing efforts like content, community, small-scale events, and PR before moving on to expensive channels.
For B2B companies, founder-led sales is crucial in the early stages to understand the customers better. Once the team knows how to sell, the next step is to hire a few salespeople and then begin targeted marketing efforts like content, community, small-scale events, and PR. After understanding the customers and the market better, companies can switch to expensive channels like paid and brand efforts, and SEO. Sri Batchu, the head of growth at Ramp, believes that as companies progress, the channels get more effective, but they also get more expensive. Ramp, one of the fastest growing SaaS and fintech businesses in history, as per Packy, achieved this success by setting ambitious goals for growth consistently and working very thoughtfully under a lean team.
Ramp's Growth Strategy and Customer Experience Approach: Ramp's early success was due to a strategic cap table and great product quality, but their ongoing growth is attributed to their customer experience approach and focus on saving companies time and money.
Ramp's initial growth was due to a combination of great product-market fit and a unique growth strategy. The co-founders' successful past experience and reputation helped them build an impressive cap table of early stage founders and influential operators. Many of Ramp's initial customers came from these companies or founders. Despite the majority of their revenue coming from mid-market and enterprise customers, Ramp's early success within the tech founder community was due to their strategic cap table and excellent product quality. While Ramp does have multiple channels for growth, their secret sauce is not found in a unique channel but rather their overall approach to customer experience and finding ways to save companies time and money.
Ramp's Growth Engineering Team Improves Sales Efficiency Through Technology and Data: Ramp's Growth Engineering Team takes ownership of sales efficiency through automation, AI, and data to prioritize leads, craft messaging, and improve response time. Their innovative approach tests new channels and events for better results.
Ramp's focus is on driving investments through technology and data to make sales teams more efficient. They have a growth engineering team that automates workflows, adjusts third party data, and uses AI to improve efficiency. The engineers take ownership of the quota and are accountable for pipeline-driven and efficient-driven success. This leads them to come up with projects that will have essential impacts on efficiency and top line. The team helps sales teams prioritize leads, find the right prospects, and craft messaging as well as prioritizing responses and drafting possible responses for teams. Ramp has channel-based teams, a product engineering team, and a small innovation team focused on cross-channel experimentation. The innovation team focuses on testing new channels like TikTok and Reddit, referrals, and first party events.
Ramp's Culture of Velocity and Efficiency: Ramp's emphasis on reducing cycle time, bias to action, and efficient communication has resulted in unprecedented product velocity and success in attracting and retaining A players.
Ramp prioritizes velocity in their work culture by instilling a razor-sharp focus on reducing cycle time and a bias to action. They reinforce the importance of smaller units of time and remind employees that each day matters. This culture has resulted in unprecedented product velocity that has been praised by investors and maintained as the company grows. Ramp's responsiveness is notable, with quick responses on Slack and clear action items for each task, even if not completed. This allows for efficient work across teams and maintains the culture of reducing cycle time. Ramp's success in attracting and retaining A players is a testament to the effectiveness of their work culture.
Prioritizing Work-Life Balance and Celebrating Wins at Ramp: Ramp emphasizes time management, quality work, and work-life balance to cultivate a happy and engaged team culture. They prioritize openness and gratitude, celebrating successes and valuing employee happiness.
Ramp focuses on effectively managing time through focus and response times, calendar blocking and calendar audits to prioritize tasks. While hard work is important for success, it is crucial to maintain work-life balance by emphasizing quality work and celebrating wins. Ramp's culture of autonomy, flexibility, mission alignment, and gratitude for hard work and impact contribute to the team's general happiness. Ramp builds a culture of openness by sharing wins publicly and tracking team engagement during all-hands meetings. The company's IT team tracks participation percentages in chats and reactions as a measure of content delivery, not mandatory engagement. By prioritizing work-life balance and celebrating success, Ramp maintains a culture that values quality work and employee happiness.
Efficient growth strategies for startups: Startups should focus on diversifying their portfolio, leveraging PR as a growth machine, and fundraising with clear goals to drive non-trivial amounts of top funnel growth. All growth channels should be optimized with a dedicated team.
Efficient growth in a diversified portfolio of bets at a reasonable ROI and building a system that's designed around experimentation and data-oriented is crucial for startups. Ramp's ability to leverage PR as a growth machine and fundraising as an effective way of creating a market moment helped them drive non-trivial amounts of top funnel growth. To make each growth channel more efficient, companies should focus on pushing customer awareness via owned and earned media. Thoughtful PR moments and clear goals for fundraising can make it a successful growth lever. Every company should eventually end up doing all the growth channels and then has a team dedicated to keep optimizing them.
Importance of Unique Information and Traditional PR in Fundraising: To build a growth engine, prioritize data-driven hypotheses and product/non-product projects with a culture of quick experimentation and learning. Motivate growth teams with intuitive north star metrics and establish rituals to foster a productive culture.
When raising funds, adding unique information about the business can provide more value to readers and improve the company's reputation for recruiting and hiring. While channels like newsletters and podcasts work well for certain audiences, traditional PR remains an important piece because it targets a different audience. Building a growth engine in a company requires a culture of defining hypotheses that are data-driven and executed quickly, with a mentality for product and non-product projects where failing and learning quickly is encouraged. A good growth team is motivated by simple north star metrics that are intuitive and directly impact what the growth team can influence, such as monthly active orders. The team's structure and design are less important than having a culture of rituals and cadences.
Using Metrics like Monthly Active Orders to Directly Influence Teams: Teams benefit from a translation layer that allows them to prioritize and allocate resources, focusing on significant impacts rather than perfection. Segregating teams by customer journey and using regression analysis aids in measuring success.
To ensure accountability, it's important for teams to have metrics that they can directly influence. By creating a translation layer for every team's metric into MAO, or monthly active orders, it becomes easier to cross-prioritize and allocate resources. The translation layer may not be perfect, but it's meant only to guide marginal decisions. To reduce cognitive overload, only decisions with big impacts are made clear, despite the measurement framework not being perfect. Teams are segregated based on the customer journey, where they optimize load time, number of searches, number of items in cart, and time from cart to checkout. Regression analysis and long-term holdouts help in determining the impact of various surface areas on MAOs.
Using A/B Testing and Regression Analysis to Determine the Impact of Changes.: By holding out groups and using methods like A/B testing and regression analysis, companies can determine the cumulative impact of changes. A common currency, like a north star metric, becomes increasingly important to score, prioritize, and estimate impacts of efforts and determine what projects to pursue. Next-generation A/B testing platforms help modern growth teams to 10X their experiment velocity.
Holding out certain groups or experiences and comparing them to others helps companies determine the cumulative impact of changes or additions they make. A/B testing and regression analysis are two commonly used methods. Having a common currency, like a north star metric, becomes increasingly important as companies get bigger, allowing for easier cross-allocation of resources. Translation factors for various teams' efforts can be established to translate back to the north star. This helps score, prioritize, and estimate impacts of efforts to determine what projects to pursue. For example, Ramp's growth team used dollars of SQL pipeline as their north star. Companies like Eppo offer next-generation A/B testing platforms to modern growth teams to 10X their experiment velocity.
Choosing Effective Success Metrics for a Business: The right success metric for a business should be focused on value creation, intuitive, and aligned with organizational goals. Prioritizing one goal at a time can also make the strategy more effective.
When choosing success metrics for a business, it's important to have one focused on volume and another on efficiency. The right success metric should have a clear linkage to value creation for the business and be intuitive for all people working internally. It shouldn't be too far from revenue and value creation, but also not something too trivial. Examples of good success metrics are users for companies trying to drive more users and engagement for companies trying to drive more engagement. It's also important to prioritize one goal at any given time, whether it's growth, engagement, or monetization, and align everyone in the company towards that goal.
Focusing on LTV and Payback Period for Better Investment ROI and CAC Reduction: When measuring investment ROI, focus on the customer's LTV and use the payback period method to measure the time it will take to recoup the cost of acquiring the customer. For B2B growth, start with founder-led sales and low-cost marketing efforts before investing in paid marketing and SEO.
When measuring investment ROI versus CAC, it's better to focus on LTV rather than on reducing CAC. Payback period is a better method as it focuses on contribution margin, which is the profit made on a customer after subtracting variable costs such as production and support. Payback period measures the months it will take to earn back the cost of acquiring the customer using estimated profit per month, making it a more reliable method. For B2B growth, start with founder-led sales, hire a few salespeople, engage in low-cost targeted marketing efforts, PR, and brand efforts, with paid marketing and SEO coming later as they become more effective as the company grows.
Experimentation and Failure in B2B SEO: Failure isn't a setback but a chance to design better tests. B2B companies must maximize treatment effect by experimenting with all possible tactics and celebrating failure to optimize their strategy over time.
To succeed in SEO, it's crucial to double down on efforts and experiment. Failure is not a setback, but an opportunity to learn and design better tests that fail conclusively. In B2B, experimentation may take longer to yield results, so companies must maximize their treatment effect by throwing all possible tactics and resources at their hypotheses. Account-based marketing is a common example where companies touch high-priority customers in as many nuanced ways as possible to drive conversions. The hypothesis being tested is the strategy itself rather than a specific email or tactic. Celebrating failure and learning from it is essential to optimize over time and avoid repeating unsuccessful experiments.
Conducting Effective Tests for Touchpoints: Consider all potential factors and test them together to improve touchpoints. Failing fast and redoing is better than wasting time. Use third-party tools for growth and experimentation. Personalization tools like Mutiny can have a significant impact on website experimentation.
When conducting tests for touchpoints such as websites or emails, it's important to consider all the potential factors that could be wrong and test them together to improve the touchpoint. While there are trade-offs, failing fast and redoing is preferred over spending a lot of time and money on planning for tests that may fail. Using third-party tools for growth and experimentation is preferred over building in-house for things that are not proprietary or strategic, which allows for speed and efficiency. Ramp is thoughtful about what they build in-house versus what they buy externally. Additionally, personalization tools such as Mutiny can have a material impact on website experimentation.
Two Approaches to Hiring and Compensation for Top Performers.: When hiring, consider the network search and data-driven approach, and prioritize rewarding top performers with higher compensation over equality. Retention and performance management are also important for long-term success.
When hiring for specific roles, there are two main approaches - a network search and a data-driven approach. The network search involves asking your network to introduce you to the best people at companies one or two stages beyond your own. If this doesn't yield results, you move down the list until you find a suitable candidate. The data-driven approach involves looking up information on companies doing well in the area you're hiring and sourcing from their teams. When it comes to compensation, it is more important to reward 10X performers with 10X the compensation, rather than focusing on equality and narrowing the gap. Companies should also consider retention and performance management, as hiring has a high rate of false positives.
Investing in Talent and Problem-Solving for Company Success: Actively listen and understand underlying motivations in negotiations to maintain a high talent bar in any company. Use mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive framework and Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss for valuable negotiation tactics.
Investing in the growth and success of talented employees while managing out those who are not a good fit is key to maintaining a high talent bar in any company. Sri Batchu emphasizes the importance of using the mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive framework to ensure comprehensive problem-solving and solution development. He recommends the book Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss for learning negotiation tactics that apply to business and life decisions. Additionally, Sri enjoys sci-fi short stories by authors like Ted Chiang and Ken Liu. The core takeaway from Voss's book is to listen actively and understand the underlying motivations behind negotiations.
Negotiation, Interviewing, and Team Alignment Tips for Success: Focus on understanding the other person's priorities in negotiation, look for well-rounded interests in job candidates, align team cycles, and always try to negotiate for savings in business contracts.
When negotiating, focus on what the other person wants and try to change the conversation towards that, instead of always trying to split things evenly. Also, when interviewing candidates, ask them what they're bad at but still do and why. Look for answers that show they have interests outside of what they're successful at. Additionally, align the sprint cycles of different teams to improve their ability to work together. And finally, remember that everything is negotiable when it comes to contracts, so don't be afraid to try and save some money.
Negotiating Software Contracts and Smart Hiring Strategies: Try to negotiate software contracts and be aware of quarter-end sales pressures. Focus on hiring based on slope and stretch, and consider Ramp's services or negotiate on your own. Small teams can accomplish more, as shown by Ramp's success. Reach out to Sri Batchu on Twitter and check out Ramp's career opportunities on ramp.com/careers.
When dealing with software contracts, always try to negotiate and be mindful of quarter ends for salespeople. Hiring based on slope rather than intercept and only hiring when people and teams are really stretched can save costs and increase impact. Ramp is constantly hiring and looking for best-in-class growth and marketing folks. To scale up, Ramp offers a service, but negotiating on your own is also possible. You can push something out until near the end of the quarter and ask for a discount. Small teams can accomplish more and Ramp being a fraction of the size of some of their competitors with similar revenue shows that. Sri Batchu can be reached on Twitter and Ramp is hiring, the URL is ramp.com/careers.
Lessons from scaling Ramp | Sri Batchu (Ramp, Instacart, Opendoor)
Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
211 Episodes
Recent Episodes from Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
Becoming a conscious leader: Leading without fear, finding your life’s objective function, and getting better at vision and strategy | John Mark Nickels (Uber, Waymo, DoorDash)
JM Nickels is a Senior Director of Product Management at Uber. Previously, he was Head of Product for Commercialization at Waymo and led product teams at DoorDash. JM is also a coach and advisor focused on conscious leadership. In our conversation, we discuss:
• How to sharpen your vision and strategy skills
• What “conscious leadership” means and how to practice it
• Practical techniques for managing stress
• The power of soft skills and emotional intelligence in product leadership
• Lessons from working at Uber, Waymo, and DoorDash
• Keys to living a successful and fulfilling life
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application
• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs
• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security
—
Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/becoming-a-conscious-leader-john-mark-nickels
—
Where to find John Mark Nickels:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmnickels/
• Website: https://www.rhythmofbeing.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to JM
(02:02) Conscious leadership explained
(03:41) The power of soft skills
(07:34) Navigating Uber’s evolution
(12:41) Embracing emotions and inner work
(21:46) Crafting strategy and vision
(41:16) Balancing vision and execution
(46:13) Lessons from DoorDash, Uber, and Waymo
(52:32) The future of autonomous ride-hailing
(55:18) Contrarian corner: Embracing emotions in the workplace
(59:47) Keys to a fulfilling life
(01:04:45) Taking responsibility and agency
(01:07:29) Lightning round and final thoughts
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
Thinking like a gardener not a builder, organizing teams like slime mold, the adjacent possible, and other unconventional product advice | Alex Komoroske (Stripe, Google)
Alex Komoroske is a strategic leader who merges the practice, theory, and mindset necessary to tackle complex problems. He spent 13 years at Google, where he worked on Search and DoubleClick and led Chrome’s Open Web Platform. He also spearheaded Augmented Reality in Google Maps and developed toolkits to align companywide strategy from the ground up. After serving as Head of Corporate Strategy at Stripe, he is now co-founding a startup aimed at reimagining the web for the AI era. Alex created the popular “Slime Molds” deck, which offers fresh insights into organizational dynamics. He is also the author of the widely read “Bits and Bobs,” a collection of thought-provoking reflections.In our conversation, we delve into:
• “Organizational kayfabe”
• “Gardening” vs. “building”
• How AI will soon change how we build product
• How and why to embrace the adjacent possible
• The power of reflection and how to build it into your workflow
• How to create emergent properties in organizations
• How to run effective “strategy salons” or “nerd clubs”
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments
• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security
• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace
—
Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unconventional-product-advice-alex-komoroske
—
Where to find Alex Komoroske:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-komoroske-6597336/
• Website: https://www.komoroske.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to Alex
(01:53) Alex’s Bits and Bobs document
(06:20) The Compendium and note-taking process
(10:10) The impact of AI and LLMs on product development
(14:24) Skills to lean into as a product manager
(19:02) How AI makes us better as individuals
(23:04) Organizational kayfabe
(31:48) Gardening vs. building
(34:46) Emergence-oriented thinking
(41:55) Slime molds and organizational structure
(45:15) Identifying resonant ideas
(47:05) The power of metaphors
(48:02) Strategy salons and nerd clubs
(52:30) Building and sustaining communities
(55:59) Productivity hacks and self-control
(01:01:04) Life philosophy and personal insights
(01:07:52) The adjacent possible
(01:15:56) Lightning round
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
How marketplaces win: Liquidity, growth levers, quality, and more | Benjamin Lauzier (Lyft, Thumbtack, Reforge)
Benjamin Lauzier has been building and scaling marketplaces for almost 15 years. He was the VP of product and growth at Thumbtack, where he rebuilt the product team and Thumbtack’s growth levers, re-architected their revenue model, and helped double the company’s growth within three years. Prior to Thumbtack, Ben was at Lyft for six years, where he led the supply side of the product organization to a point where 1% of U.S. workers were driving for Lyft every month. Currently, he advises marketplace teams and founders, teaches a Reforge course on marketplace growth, and has recently launched a health tech company called Nurra, which connects users with care advocates to navigate the health-care system. In our conversation, we cover:
• What defines a marketplace business
• Strategies for growing supply and demand in the early stages
• How to measure liquidity and other marketplace health metrics
• How to evaluate if a marketplace model is right for your idea
• Lessons from Lyft, Thumbtack, and other successful marketplaces
• The differences between product management in the U.S. and Europe
—
Brought to you by:
• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments
• Paragon—Ship every SaaS integration your customers want
• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security
—
Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-marketplaces-win-benjamin-lauzier
—
Where to find Benjamin Lauzier:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminlauzier/
• Ben’s Reforge course: https://www.reforge.com/courses/marketplace-growth/details
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Ben’s background
(02:24) Defining a marketplace
(07:52) Challenges in building a marketplace
(13:28) Methods for growing supply
(15:57) Understanding marketplace liquidity
(21:36) Identifying product-market fit in marketplaces
(24:10) Evaluating marketplace business models
(27:20) Common pitfalls and failures in marketplaces
(36:23) Managed marketplaces and quality control
(42:26) Lyft’s rental car initiative
(46:35) Mentorship and ambassador programs
(51:21) Driver recruitment strategies
(54:12) Lyft vs. Uber: a strategic analysis
(59:24) Cultural differences in tech: Europe vs. U.S.
(01:10:30) Building a health advocacy platform
(01:16:52) Lightning round and final thoughts
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
You don’t need to be a well-run company to win: Surprising lessons in product leadership and AI strategy | Tamar Yehoshua (President at Glean, ex-CPO at Slack, VP at Google, VP at Amazon)
Tamar Yehoshua is the president of product and technology at Glean. Prior to joining Glean, Tamar was chief product officer at Slack, where she led product, design, and research as the company scaled, including a 10x increase in revenue, its public listing, and an acquisition by Salesforce. She also led product and engineering teams at Google, working on search, identity, and privacy, and at A9.com, an Amazon company. Tamar has served on the board of directors for RetailMeNot, ServiceNow, Snyk, and Yext. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Why you don’t need to be a well-run company to win
• The impact of AI on product management and the future of work
• How to build strong cross-functional relationships, especially with engineers
• Lessons learned from working with leaders like Jeff Bezos and Stewart Butterfield
• Strategies for staying ahead in a rapidly evolving tech landscape
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product
• Sprig—Build products for people, not data points
• Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers
—
Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/you-dont-need-to-be-a-well-run-company-to-win-tamar-yehoshua
—
Where to find Tamar Yehoshua:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamar-yehoshua-886217/
• Newsletter: https://tamaryehoshua.substack.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Tamar’s background
(02:09) Key advice for career success
(06:54) Understanding people and motivations
(09:33) The importance of impact
(11:20) Navigating company chaos
(18:40) Career planning: a different perspective
(26:22) Lessons from industry leaders
(37:59) Building stronger cross-functional relationships
(42:00) Streamlining OKR reviews with async methods
(45:26) Why you shouldn’t worry so much about making users unhappy
(47:50) The power of listening in leadership
(52:34) How to leverage AI so you don’t fall behind
(01:06:39) Closing thoughts and lightning round
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
Becoming a super IC: Lessons from 12 years as a PM individual contributor | Tal Raviv (Product Lead at Riverside)
Tal Raviv is a product manager at Riverside, where he joined as its first PM. Over his 12-year career as an individual contributor, Tal has been an early PM at Patreon, AppsFlyer, and Wix, working in consumer growth, developer API platforms, and pricing. He started his career by co-founding a profitable SaaS company and also volunteers as a surf instructor for people with disabilities. In our conversation, Tal shares:
• Why he has chosen to stay an individual contributor rather than moving into management
• The rise of “super ICs” and how companies can support this career path
• Advice for succeeding as a long-term IC product manager
• How he uses AI to enhance his productivity
• How to build self-reliant teams and make yourself redundant
• Lessons from failures
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Gamma—A new way to present, powered by AI
• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs
• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments
—
Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-super-ic-pm-tal-raviv
—
Where to find Tal Raviv:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/talsraviv/
• Maven course: https://maven.com/tal-raviv/product-manager-productivity-system/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Tal’s background
(02:24) Choosing to stay an IC product manager
(07:05) The value of IC roles
(08:31) Compensation and career path
(12:37) Advice for companies on creating space for ICs
(14:33) Leveraging AI for productivity
(22:44) Build your personal PM productivity system
(37:39) Contrarian opinions and insights
(44:32) Book smart vs. street smart decision-making
(51:51) There’s no one right way to get things done
(57:03) Failure corner
(01:19:04) Lightning round
(01:26:50) Living through conflict
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
Rethinking SEO in the age of AI | Eli Schwartz (SEO advisor, author)
Eli Schwartz is a leading SEO consultant and the author of Product-Led SEO. He has worked with industry giants like Zapier, Tinder, Coinbase, Quora, LinkedIn, and WordPress to build and execute global SEO strategies that significantly enhanced their organic visibility at scale. In our conversation, Eli shares:
• How AI and LLMs are reshaping the SEO landscape
• Why you should be focused on mid-funnel SEO strategies
• How to determine if SEO is the right approach for your business
• Why SEO should be treated as a product rather than just a marketing tactic
• SEO myths
• The future of search in light of recent legal challenges faced by Google
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application
• Brave Search—A smarter way to search
• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster
—
Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/rethinking-seo-in-the-age-of-ai-eli-schwartz
—
Where to find Eli Schwartz:
• X: https://x.com/5le
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/schwartze/
• Website: https://www.elischwartz.co/
• Newsletter: https://www.productledseo.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Eli’s background
(02:10) The impact of AI on SEO strategies
(11:34) Understanding search intent
(15:30) Real-world impact and structured vs. unstructured data
(20:19) Top-of-funnel vs mid-funnel SEO strategies
(22:57) Case studies
(31:29) Steps for getting started with SEO
(35:20) Examples of when not to focus on SEO
(39:17) Evaluating SEO investment
(44:00) Understanding the tradeoffs in marketing channels
(46:23) SEO conversion metrics and expectations
(52:09) Understanding the time horizon of SEO
(59:37) The role of AI in content creation
(01:05:26) AI overviews
(01:07:40) Brand building and SEO
(01:09:51) Programmatic vs. editorial SEO strategies
(01:16:06) Insights from the Google antitrust verdict
(01:20:36) Google’s dominance in search
(01:23:52) The future of SEO and user choice
(01:26:28) SEO myths debunked
(01:36:58) Forecasting SEO success
(01:44:18) The need for SEO expertise
(01:46:26) Lightning round and closing thoughts
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (author of “The Manager’s Path,” ex-CTO at Rent the Runway)
Camille Fournier is the author of The Manager’s Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating one’s career path in tech. Camille was previously the CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma, and Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase. She is about to release new newest book, Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders. In our conversation, we discuss:
• What product managers do that annoys engineers
• Why major rewrites are a trap
• Why you should have fewer one-on-ones
• Strategies for organizing and working with platform teams
• Tips for new managers
• Advice for transitioning from individual contributor to manager
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• DX—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity
• CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users
• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace
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Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineering-leadership-camille-fournier
—
Where to find Camille Fournier:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camille-fournier-9011812/
• Website: https://skamille.medium.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Camille’s background
(02:17) Common annoyances between PMs and engineers
(07:09) Avoiding the telephone game
(08:05) Hoarding ideas and over-engineering
(09:55) The importance of involving engineers in ideation
(11:37) The middle-person dilemma
(14:21) Rewriting systems: a big trap?
(20:40) Engineering leadership lessons
(36:02) Moving from IC to management
(40:32) One-on-one meetings
(45:10) Pushing beyond comfort zones
(45:27) Building a balanced work culture
(48:01) Effective time management strategies
(54:15) Advice for platform team success
(01:02:42) Platform team responsibilities
(01:04:43) When to form a platform team
(01:07:02) Thriving on a platform team
(01:12:48) AI corner
(01:17:03) Lightning round and final thoughts
—
Referenced:
• Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/Platform-Engineering-Technical-Product-Leaders/dp/1098153642/
• The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change: https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897
• 97 Things Every Engineering Manager Should Know: Collective Wisdom from the Experts: https://www.amazon.com/Things-Every-Engineering-Manager-Should/dp/1492050903
• Avoiding the Rewrite Trap: https://skamille.medium.com/avoiding-the-rewrite-trap-b1283b8dd39e
• Levelsio on X: https://x.com/levelsio
• Pieter Levels on the Lex Fridman Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg
• GraphQL: https://graphql.org/
• New Blue Sun by André 3000 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/33Ek6daAL3oXyQIV1uoItD
• Musk’s 5 Steps to Cut Internal Bureaucracy at Tesla and SpaceX: https://icecreates.com/insight/musk-s-5-steps-to-cut-internal-bureaucracy-at-tesla-and-spacex-you-may-say-it-s-his-algorithm/
• Ian Nowland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inowland/
• Studio Pulls ‘Megalopolis’ Trailer Using Fake Quotes from Famed Movie Critics: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/studio-pulls-megalopolis-trailer-using-fake-quotes-from-famed-movie-critics_n_66c74046e4b0f1ca469413c7
• Claude 2: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-2
• What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful: https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1401301304
• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438
• Alien: Romulus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18412256/
• Whoop: https://www.whoop.com
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more | Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)
Phyl Terry is the author of Never Search Alone, which I’ve seen so many people reference as the most impactful guide they read for finding a job. Phyl was on the founding team of the first company Amazon acquired back in the ’90s and then was CEO of pioneering product consulting firm Creative Good, with companies like Apple, Facebook, and Microsoft as customers. Today, Phyl is the founder and CEO of Collaborative Gain, which 20 years ago pioneered bringing councils to senior product leaders and GMs in Silicon Valley. That’s their day job—in addition to that, Phyl runs a free global community for job seekers based on their latest book. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Why you should never search for a job alone
• How job search councils work
• How to determine your “candidate-market fit”
• How to conduct a listening tour
• Creating your job mission and OKRs
• How to negotiate job offers
• The art of asking for help
• Tactics for effective networking and interviewing
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers
• Sprig—Build products for people, not data points
• Dovetail—The customer insights hub for product teams
—
Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/land-your-dream-phyl-terry
—
Where to find Phyl Terry:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phylterry/
• Website: https://www.phyl.org/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Phyl’s background
(01:58) The concept of job search councils
(04:27) The power of community in job searching
(08:55) The scale and structure of job search councils
(12:27) The impact of job search councils
(20:19) The concept of candidate-market fit
(22:50) Writing a Mnookin two-pager
(24:37) Conducting listening tours
(30:12) Creating a focused candidate-market fit
(36:20) Advice on finding the right stage of company for you
(40:37) Identifying your unique path
(45:30) Navigating tough job markets
(49:07) Playing to win
(53:36) Negotiation tactics for job offers
(01:05:12) The gratitude house exercise
(01:10:48) The power of asking for help
(01:19:18) How to ask for help
(01:28:40) Final thoughts and advice
(01:38:21) Lightning round
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn)
Tomer Cohen is the chief product officer at LinkedIn, responsible for setting the company’s product strategy, leading product development, user experience design, business development, content creation, and customer operations. He also hosts the Building One podcast, where he interviews exceptional builders across various disciplines. In our conversation, we discuss:
• How LinkedIn transformed its feed into an engaging content and social platform
• Tomer’s famous “We might be wrong, but we are not confused” mantra
• The importance of conviction and passion in product leadership
• LinkedIn’s approach to experimenting with and implementing AI features
• Lessons from Tomer’s rapid career progression at LinkedIn
• Strategies for embracing AI in product development
—
Brought to you by:
• Gamma—A new way to present, powered by AI
• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs
• Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app
—
Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen
—
Where to find Tomer Cohen:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomercohen/
• Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-one-with-tomer-cohen/id1726672498
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction to Tomer Cohen and his role at LinkedIn
(02:28) The mantra “We might be wrong, but we are not confused”
(06:45) Clarity of thought and focus
(13:03) Setting ambitious goals and overdelivering
(16:18) Transforming LinkedIn’s feed: strategy and execution
(22:03) Running experiments at scale
(26:24) Goal setting and identifying opportunities
(30:58) AI’s role in LinkedIn’s evolution
(35:38) The AI-first mindset at LinkedIn
(35:38) Developing an AI-first mindset
(44:49) Letting go of your roadmaps and allowing room for exploration
(49:12) Career growth and personal insights
(55:01) Takeaways
(56:39) Lightning round and final thoughts
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
The original growth hacker reveals his secrets | Sean Ellis (author of “Hacking Growth”)
Sean Ellis is one of the earliest and most influential thinkers and operators in growth. He coined the term “growth hacking,” invented the ICE prioritization framework, was one of the earliest people to use freemium as a growth lever, and, most famously, developed the Sean Ellis Test for product-market fit (which a large percentage of founders use today to track if they’ve found PMF). Over the course of his career, Sean was head of growth at Dropbox and Eventbrite; helped companies like Microsoft and Nubank refine their growth strategy; was on the founding team of LogMeIn, which sold for over $4 billion; and is the author of one of the most popular growth books of all time, Hacking Growth, which has sold over 750,000 copies. In our conversation, he shares:
• The proper use of the Sean Ellis Test for measuring product-market fit
• How to increase your activation and retention rates
• How to select the right North Star metric for your business
• Case studies from his work growing Dropbox and other products
• How growth strategy has changed over the past decade
• How AI is impacting growth efforts
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Gamma—A new way to present, powered by AI
• CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users
• Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app
—
Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-original-growth-hacker-sean-ellis
—
Where to find Sean Ellis:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanellis/
• Website: https://www.seanellis.me/
• Substack: https://substack.com/@seanellis
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Sean’s background
(02:18) The Sean Ellis test explained
(06:28) The 40% rule
(08:06) Case study: improving product-market fit
(12:34) Understanding and leveraging customer feedback
(16:50) Challenges and nuances of product-market fit
(22:22) When to use the Sean Ellis Test
(23:46) When not to use the Sean Ellis Test and other caveats
(27:13) Defining your own threshold and how the Sean Ellis Test came about
(36:13) Tools for implementing the survey
(37:30) Transitioning from surveys to retention cohorts
(39:13) Nubank’s approach
(40:18) Case study: Superhuman’s strategy for increasing product-market fit
(45:18) Coining the term “growth hacking”
(48:24) How to approach growth
(57:25) Improving activation and onboarding
(01:05:17) Identifying effective growth channels
(01:10:28) The power of customer conversations
(01:12:43) Developing the Dropbox referral program
(01:14:47) The importance of word of mouth
(01:15:23) Freemium models and engagement
(01:19:21) Picking a North Star metric
(01:24:30) The evolution of growth strategies
(01:27:12) The ICE and RICE frameworks
(01:30:11) AI’s role in growth and experimentation
(01:32:52) Final thoughts and lightning round
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
Related Episodes
How to build trust and grow as a product leader | Fareed Mosavat (Reforge, Slack, Instacart, Zynga, Pixar)
Fareed Mosavat is Chief Development Officer at Reforge, where he leads production, content, and new-product experiences. Previously, he led growth and product teams at Slack and Instacart, was a GM at Zynga, and also served as VP of Product at RunKeeper. Before all of that, Fareed’s fascinating career began in engineering for Pixar, where he learned the art of storytelling and collaboration. In today’s episode, we talk about how his time at Pixar influenced the way he thinks about product, why it’s so difficult to become a better PM, and how to avoid the “manager death spiral.” Fareed shares important insights on how to earn the trust of your manager and coworkers, the four types of product work—and why you need to understand all four. He also provides solid examples of how to generalize your learnings and explains why this will expand your options, make you a better PM, and boost your chances of moving into a leadership role.
—
Find the full transcript here: https://www.podpage.com/lennys-podcast/how-to-build-trust-and-grow-as-a-product-leader-fareed-mosavat-reforge-slack-instacart-zynga-pixar/#transcript
—
Where to find Fareed Mosavat:
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/far33d
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fareed/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible:
• Coda: http://coda.io/lenny
• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/
• Vanta: https://vanta.com/lenny
—
Referenced:
• Naval Ravikant’s Twitter thread about specific knowledge: https://twitter.com/naval/status/1002104865919664128
• Merci Grace on Lenny’s podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/merci-grace-ex-head-of-growth-at-slack-on-plg-interviewing-storytelling-building-a-diverse-team-hiring-salespeople-building-a-growth-team-and-much-more/
• “Crossing the Canyon: Product Manager to Product Leader,” by Fareed Mosavat and Casey Winters: https://www.reforge.com/blog/crossing-the-canyon-product-manager-to-product-leader
• Casey Winters on Lenny’s podcast: https://www.podpage.com/lennys-podcast/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/
• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:38) Fareed’s background
(03:55) Lessons from Pixar
(09:07) What Fareed does at Reforge
(11:57) The scale of Reforge at this time
(13:51) Why it’s so difficult to become a better PM
(18:03) A PM pie chart—execution, generalizing your solutions, communication, and scaling
(23:00) How creating trust helped Fareed’s career grow
(26:24) How to gain trust by leveraging your curiosity and communication skills
(33:50) How to move from PM to Product Lead
(36:43) The manager death spiral and how to avoid it
(40:43) The four types of product work
(44:13) Moving from IC to product manager
(47:15) How to ask for the proper resources
(50:00) The trend of senior PMs diversifying into advising, teaching, and angel investing
(57:20) The downsides of being your own boss
(01:00:45) Advice for breaking into advising
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe
What Is CoStar Really Up To?
It was the breakup heard around the real estate world! CoStar and BPP split, so what does that mean for the industry? This episode features an in-depth look at what CoStar is really up to and what that could mean for the MLS. Rob and Greg are back together again after a couple weeks apart, but the intensity has not wavered one bit! Could CoStar be waiting for government intervention? Is the MLS currently in jeopardy? Is real estate doomsday really right around the corner? It’s time for a brawl (at least, that’s what Greg thinks), and we have the insight you need to stay informed.
Being Product-Led
In this episode, Glenn and Howard go a level deeper into the world of product management and look at some of the specific activities and deliverables of the discipline. They then take a look at what it means to be "product-led" as an organization and what steps need to be taken at a structural and operational level to ensure that an organization can achieve the desired outcomes promised by being product-led.
Resources
Leading Through Layoffs
At present, the tech industry is going through a painful cycle of contraction. It seems like everywhere you look, another company has just implemented a massive round of layoffs, and no company is immune. In this episode, Glenn and Howard talk about what it looks like to lead through layoffs - from the reasons behind them, to how decisions are made in forming "the list", and how those decisions are communicated. In each of these topics, the guys will talk about some examples of where the process was done well and where it was done terribly (looking at you, Twitter). They'll also share some personal "behind the curtain" insights on some of the decision making that goes into the process.
AA71 - Career Paths to Product Management
On this episode, Product Owner and Registered Nurse Stormy Dickson stops by to discuss her journey to Product. Additionally, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Agile Coach Om Patel muse on the different ways people find themselves in Product.
0:00 Topic Intro
0:38 Path to Product
3:27 Assumptions
9:04 First Job PM - Things to Watch
13:36 Trying to See the Other Side
18:38 Journey Starting with Domain Experience
24:09 Discover Users, Build Empathy
35:11 Comparing PMs
37:51 PM vs PO
45:14 Getting Stuck in the Tactical World
52:58 The Skill to Challenge Things
59:22 Suggestions for Your Past Self
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AA71 - Career Paths to Product Management