Jada Pinkett Smith ON: How to Move from Shame to Self- Acceptance & Ways to Heal From The Past

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That was a really, really... It's a really painful time. I'm sorry. Please welcome Jada Pinkett Smith. You want out of the pain, only way out is death. Chris comes to the end of the stage and he looks at me deeply, sincerely. And he says... I also have a letter from Will.

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Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best-selling author and host. The number one health and wellness podcast. On purpose with Jay Shetty.

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host Jay Shetty and today is an extremely special episode for me because I'm sitting down with one of my dearest friends, my sisters, someone that I deeply love and admire in this world. And she's gone out and created something that I believe is going to be a gift to anyone who reads it. I've just spent the last couple of months

reading through her new book myself. And I can tell you this, it is a journey of hardship. It is a journey of healing. It's a journey of growth.

And it's a journey of learning to accept and embrace the discomfort that life brings to each and every one of us in so many different ways. And for that reason, I believe that when you read it, when you take out time to hopefully share it with your friends, your community, maybe you're going to make it the next pick for your book club and dissect it and analyze it and reflect on it together, which I think it would be really powerful for.

I hope that this book is going to help make you happier, healthier and more healed because I really believe it has the power to do that and guide you towards your greatest, higher self in all areas of your life, whether it be your career, your relationships as a parent, as a friend,

I really believe that this book has the ability to uplift you as a person, as a parent, as a partner, and ultimately as a human trying to live and walk on this earth that can be chaotic and crazy. So I want to welcome to the show one of my dearest friends.

Jada Pinkett Smith, who, of course, needs no introduction, but is an actor, producer, musician, a host, now author and advocate whose career has spanned over 30 years. In 2018, Jada added a new element to her multi-hyphenate talents, one of host on the Emmy Award-winning talk show titled Red Table Talk, that I've had the fortune of being a guest on so many times. It was one of the highlights of my careers when I was first invited on.

And on the series, Jada, alongside her wonderful daughter Willow and her mom, Adrian, take a multi-generational approach to discussions that speak to social and cultural issues, which have encouraged open discussions and dialogue among hundreds of millions of people. And a new book is out right now. It's called Worthy.

This beautiful cover made of so many wonderful images and a mosaic of tiny little pictures of Jada. But I want to encourage you all to grab a copy of this book. Welcome to the show. Jada Pinkett Smith. Jada. Jay. Now, J, before we start. Go on. Can I tell a story? You can. Okay.

I gotta, I had to let your audience know how this book even became, okay? They have to know Jay. Okay. All right, so I visit you. I'm here visiting because Swami's here, right enough Swami's here. And you had often said, Jada, you should write a book. I'm like, J, I don't want to. So this day, once again, you're like, Jada, you should write a book. I'm like, J,

I don't want to write a book. You're like, well, you should write a book, Jay. I don't want to write a book. We're going back and forth like siblings. Right enough comes into the kitchen because Roddy's making a beautiful lunch for us to eat. He comes, he sits there and he goes, Jay, if Jay doesn't want to write a book, she doesn't have to write a book. And you go, well, I think she should write a book. And I was like, oh, did he just talk back to me? But I'm going to tell you something that was a really

A moment for me, right? Because I said, because I'd been pushing back for a long time and you talking to me about it. And that moment, I was like, okay, I need you to take that home and I need you to think about it because Jay is your brother.

There's something here that you might not be seeing. And it was really that moment that put me on pause. And a couple of days later, I was in meditation and it came to me. And I said, oh my goodness, my journey from unlovable to lovable is a worthy story to tell. And I called you and I said, Jay, I got it. Thank you.

you were so persistent about it, right? And I just want to thank you because honestly, and I'm not, you know, if it hadn't been for that moment, that book wouldn't be here right now, right? And you really were on my neck about it for a long time. So I just want to say thank you because

You also made it clear. You were like, you made it clear to me. I would get a lot out of it. And I have. So I just want to say thank you. It's been such a deep healing process for me in ways that I could have never imagined.

You know, and what you said before, you know, we even started in the introduction, you know, just that hope of it's so hard to find authentic happiness in this world. Even through my journey, my 52 years and just trying to figure out how to be authentically happy has been such an excruciating process.

And one of the purposes of this book is like if I can help in any small amount of way, you know, in any way possible to help somebody have an easier or just leave like little breadcrumbs kind of like not a blueprint because everybody's process is different, but just little breadcrumbs of how to find that for yourself.

because it has been really difficult for me. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you for sharing that with me. And I think I blocked that memory out because I don't think I've ever tried to stand up against rather than as long as my teacher before. I think that would. So I've pretended that. Yeah, I did it.

For me growing up reading autobiographies is what changed my life and i think one of the things that i feel we struggle with today is that, people's narratives are being told from so many different angles apart from their own. And when i grew up and i was reading the words of Martin Luther king or i was reading malcolm x.

I found there to be so much power in reading the words directly from an individual.

Even if that wasn't their autobiography, if it was their work, their words, you felt so intimately connected with that person. And I feel that when people move on and we don't have them on the planet anymore, it's almost like you lose this treasure house of experience and memories. And I also think that

If someone's listening or watching right now and you're thinking, well, Jay, I would never write a book. I'm not a public figure. I'm not a celebrity. I'm not a musician or an actor. I don't have a career path. That means I should be an author. I still think that telling your story, whether it's your family, your kids, you're so important.

I could not agree with you more. I think it's actually imperative that looking at your life on the page, you forget experiences. You forget like, oh my goodness, I did that. Oh, I went through that. Oh my God, really? I came through that? It's almost like an homage to yourself, honestly, to really be able to look at your life and go,

Wow, what a life. I think everybody should take some time, even if it's just like, even with worthy, I took one line, which was unlovable to lovable. So anything in regards to my life that was on that arc,

I talked about, but there's so much more, so many other parts of my life, right? So even if somebody says, you know what, I just wanna write down happiest moments of my childhood and I wanna just look at that on paper, right? But whatever journey somebody decides to pick from their life and to examine thoroughly on the page, I would definitely suggest that because it is really powerful and it's so,

healing and it will teach you so much about yourself. Absolutely. I can't agree more. I can't agree more. Let's dive in because that journey of being unlovable, the lovable as you're tracing there, I think is a journey that we all have to walk in our own ways.

And I think when I met you, I think five years ago now, we've just spent a lot of time together in the last five years, hence we have a deep connection. But when I first met you, I was looking at you from the outside. And over the last five years, I've got to know you through an inner journey and through family as well and through spending time with your family. And what I found was that

We often lose context when you view someone's life on the outside and when you get closer, the greatest thing you get is context. And so I wanted to start off, and this book does that so well, but I wanna start off of what does it feel like growing up with a teenage mom who has an addiction? I think that that is so formative in so many ways, and it's so easy to forget that that's where you started because of your career. Growing up with my mother,

A teenage, it's like we grew up together. It's almost like having a big sister.

I mean, even to this day, you know, it's like, it's like I get to have two roles in my mom. Like, sometimes she's still my big sister and then sometimes she really comes in as your as my mother. You know what I mean? As you saw in the book, it's like, I had all this freedom running crazy in the streets and what have you, but there was such pivotal moments where Adrian came to the rescue as my mother, right? And she still does that to this day. But it was, you know, I did a lot of

having to raise myself. And there are parts of that. There's pros and cons to that. There's a lot of pros. It's like, that is the part that made it possible for me to come to LA at the age of 18 on my own and figure this Hollywood game out, right? Just with no fear, completely fearless. But then also kind of growing up with certain ideas of what I thought

Love was, or certain survival mechanisms that, you know, as I got older, didn't quite serve me. But I think that we all have that, no matter what our family background is, you know what I'm saying? We all kind of pick up things that along the way that don't serve us for the entirety of our journey. I tell you, I learned a lot having a young mom.

at an early age. I really do think that even with our trials and our challenges that the Great Supreme gave me, the mom I was supposed to have and the most perfect mother in the journey that I was supposed to have to prepare me for other parts of my journey. But, you know, it was challenging and beautiful at the same time. Yeah, and I love gaming, so I just want to put that on. Yeah, I love gaming. Yeah, but it's really interesting. There was one line in your book that really kind of cemented that

feeling of unlovable to me from that time. And you said there was a time when you felt like you were not being a priority to the two people who gave you one.

That was hard. That really hit me because I was like, yeah. That was probably really difficult. And like you had two parents who drugs were their focus and the lifestyle that came with it. You know, I also talk about in the book when my father told me at seven years old, I can't be your father. And it's just like, wow, okay, what do I do with this?

What does a 7-year-old do with that? You just kind of internalize it and you kind of go, okay, what's wrong with me? What is it about me that I'm not enough for these two people to look at me as a priority?

Because I see everybody else's parents and it looks like their kids are their priority. So what's wrong with me? So you kind of, I internalize this idea of not being enough, not being lovable. And it's strange because it's not that, that I didn't feel like my mother didn't love me. It's just that, am I lovable enough?

to be the priority. Am I lovable enough for you to show up for me as the mom that I see other moms be? So I definitely internalized that and I think that I took that into the world of like, I'm just gonna prove constantly having to prove myself. And I'm lovable, I'm lovable enough, I'm lovable enough. And I think that was some of the messaging that I took

from my childhood into my adulthood. And I appreciate you going back to that seven-year-old self because

in hindsight, and now looking back, you can make sense of it. And you can connect the dots, but it's like, when you're actually in that position, it's very natural, as you said, to just internalize it. And I think that what's really interesting with your journey is we all have to develop the emotional skills our parents didn't have. And the earlier we do that, the easier and simpler life becomes.

but often most of our energy goes in thinking, well, I wish they had them or they should have had them. And when I'm listening to you, what I'm hearing is that it's not even the belief that they don't love me or love me enough. It's the belief that somewhere inside I am not loveable. Yes. Yes. Right. It's so inside you. It's not even about them. Absolutely. It's like I'm not valuable. I'm not

Yeah, it's because that's your mirror at first, right? But it's so complicated and nuanced. Do I believe my father loved me? Of course. In the way that he could, I think that he felt the most loving thing he could do was tell me,

I can't be your father. And I respected that even at seven because I was like at least somebody's telling me the truth. I've always respected hardcore truths. That is one thing about me. I respect hardcore truths. Doesn't mean I always like them.

But I freaking respect them. At seven, like that lesson started. That's against their hardcore truth to tell a child. But then at the same time, that seed within me that is like, well, are all men like that? Like if my dad doesn't love me,

How is any man gonna love me? I didn't realize that as seven. That's when I started getting into like 16, 17, when I start, you know, having those kind of intimate relationships with men and realizing,

Oh, wow. This area is quite unhealthy. You know what I mean? I've viewed myself. I was either giving too much or not enough. I mean, the hot or super cold.

You know, emotionally. And so trying to regulate and understand because, you know, my understanding is that a young girl's first relationship and understanding of love is with her father. I didn't have that at all. So I'm still learning. I'm still really immature in that area of just emotional development around

intimacy with masculinity. I know that now, whereas before I had another. Yeah, you don't wear it. I'm not aware. Like, this is just what it is. And then growing up in an environment with so much violence and so much aggression and, oh man, it was like, what do you do with all that? And trying to just like unpack all of it to just figure out like, oh, life is about love. It's not about power and ego and winning and losing.

I mean, it's taken me 52. Just now understanding that. It's been a wild ride, but you know what?

Every day, I thank the great Supreme for the journey and just forgiven me the awakenings, the little awakenings that I get about love and just my willingness to have it, you know, really wanting to understand what love is all about. But I do have to give my grandmother a lot of credit. Yeah, I was going to talk about it. Yeah, Marion really

I had all these different seeds that were planted in me and Mary and seed that goes to show you how the legacy of love.

will overpower everything. It is the legacy of love that my grandmother instilled in me and also the desire to search. She always had me understand that the world is full of treasures. Get out there and find them. She instilled that in me at a very young age. And she also instilled in me that I was special, but I was her first girl.

I was our first grandchild. There you go, make an excuse. I just said, I was our first grandchild, and so she really made me think that I could be and do anything. Be in the child of two addicts on one side, and then my grandmother instilling in me like, no, I'm telling you, you got something, kid.

You know what I mean? And so just being able to hold on to those seeds that she put within me. And then of course, my mother encouraged me along the way too. My mother saw some really beautiful stuff in me as well. And she's been one of my biggest cheerleaders and champions throughout my life. Absolutely. If your grandmother saw you today, what would she say? Oh my goodness. My grandmother would be so proud of me. Do it all.

Like with the good and the challenges, she had a very challenging life, extremely. And what she was able to make out of her life as a

immigrant, you know, child of two immigrants from Jamaica. She became pregnant at 13 to this day. We don't know how that happened. We do believe that it was a mistake and it wasn't that she was raped or molested or take, you know, I never

got that from her. I always got that it was her lack of knowledge about sex that created that circumstance. And she had that baby on her own. She was pretty much abandoned and she was taken in by a family through a foster, a white family who she worked for as a maid and got herself to Howard University and was able to go to India as an ambassador. Yeah, she went to India.

and came back in my grandfather, who was studying to be a doctor, asked her to get married. So, I think she would be and is very proud of me with it all. I love that. That's special to feel that, that it's always to look back. So, Jada, at the start of this book,

You talk about how you were, and this broke my heart, you were talking about how you were planning, taking your life, but then how it could look like an accident. Yeah, that was 2011. That was my 40th birthday, my 40th year, actually.

When I was reading that, I was just thinking to myself, I was like, what were you hoping that would achieve? What were you hoping that would solve? Talk us through that. Yeah. It's funny because when you're in those states, you're not clear. It's not like it's going to make rational sense, right? You want out of the pain and you cannot imagine your only way out is death.

You think in your mind, you've tried everything. And you're like, it's all I got. I can't do this. I can't keep doing this. And so that's your only solution.

And I tell people all the time, you know, we've had a lot of different spotlight of people taking their life. People cannot believe it. And I'm like, you just never know what somebody's going through. And there are certain people that have a high tolerance for being able to put on a good face in order to not burden people. But what is really interesting is that

When you have a plan, sometimes that gives you enough energy to just keep going because you're like, okay, I got a good plan. So if this gets really bad, I know where to go. And you're like, okay, I'm just gonna keep trying to figure this out. I'm gonna keep trying to figure this out, but I got this plan. And it's really tough because you don't wanna, for personalities like myself,

You don't wanna burden anybody. And you're like, look, if I can't figure out how to get out of this, nobody else is gonna be able to figure this out either. That was a really, really painful, really painful time. I'm sorry. I'm really grateful that I am found a way out.

But I think about people who will find it and I wish, I wish there was like one thing I could say, one piece of advice, you know, like, what would you tell somebody in a situation like then? All I could ever say is please, just keep going.

trying, keep walking, trust. Because if you trust, and I know how difficult it is, you know, for people who are in it, like, that's easy for you to say. But if you keep trusting, the universe will open a door. And I know how hard it is to just wake up

and keep it going. Because for me, it was hard just waking up in the morning. If I could get to four o'clock, I was like, okay, you made it another day. Being able to have enough strength to just get up, get out of bed, put clothes on, get through your day, and let no one know that you're struggling.

It is so hard. I feel really blessed. You know, when plant medicine came my way, it saved my life. And I know that there's still a lot of whatever around plant medicine, but I'm going to tell you like this. And I'm not saying that that's for everybody because my way out was a rugged four nights.

And it was just my thoughts, thoughts about myself. It was just my self-hatred. The level of self-hatred you have that I have had to want to take my own life. And I had to walk four nights to clear up, look at, be with that level of self-hatred. I was like, you want to talk about walking through the valley of the shadow of death.

that I'm really grateful for that experience because after that one night, I never thought about suicide again. Yeah, after the ceremony. After the ceremony. And it was really my last resort. I was like, okay, this has been brought my way. I'm gonna try this and it worked. Praise God, thank you. That's a really painful place for me still. And just thinking about how many people

are sitting in that place. It really breaks my heart. Trusting God. That's those moments where I just have to just be like, God, these are your children. You will take care. And I pray that God, you will provide the door. You have provided for me. Thank you for being so vulnerable with us. I want to give you a big hug. Can I call you a big hug? You can give me a hug. Oh, I love you.

Thank you. You've been such a wonderful friend. I really have.

And by my sat, there's some really tough stuff. Only for more time. Only for more challenges to come along the way. I'm so glad. I never, you know, I wouldn't have had the fortune of getting to meet you. And I'm really glad that you, you know, were so vulnerable to us just now because I really feel like there's more people than we think that have those thoughts. Trust and believe it. Trust and believe it. There's people. Yeah.

there's people that you see every day that you would never believe. It's so funny to have that level of strength and that level of vulnerability and just, you know, despair and at the same time that level of like helplessness that could drive you to do something like that. But a lot of times we just don't know how to communicate it.

I didn't know how. And no one knew like the Will's kids. Will's, oh no. And they knew I was very unhappy. That wasn't a secret. And people didn't understand why either. So let's talk about that for a minute. The shame that comes with.

those feelings and specifically like everybody feels that level of shame. I don't care what station of life you're existing in. And I would say I'm unhappy and people would look at me like I'm crazy. What are you unhappy about? And so then I just went in even more because I was like, they're right. Look what you have accomplished. You've got this great family. You've got a great life. You got the house, the car, the this and that.

What's your problem? So then that's a hot cup of shame. So then I just shut down.

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That's such a great note to put out there because I think so many times we think like that about maybe our friends. Yeah, it's just like you have someone that we know. Yeah. Yeah. So much. Yeah. That language can be so. Yeah. And I would suggest to anybody. Don't say that. Yeah. Don't say that to somebody who's saying, I'm having a tough time. I'm struggling. Yeah, there's you have that. No, what's going on? Tell me.

Help me understand. Yeah, as ridiculous as it may sound to you. Right. To that person, that thought has been repeated so many times. Absolutely. That it could come to their reality. Absolutely. Even if it seems ridiculous to you. Yeah, it can be so foreign, I get it. Yeah. But that is somebody.

trying to step out and talk. So we have to be receptive and not to look at it. And that is like, that's tricky too, because really being able to

meet somebody where they are versus trying to meet somebody where you're at. And that in itself is a skill set. Just being able to go, okay, hold it. What am I missing here? Let me just take a minute. Let me blend with you. Let me join you. I didn't have that and it's nobody's fault.

you know, I'm hoping that anyone who thinks anyone in their life is struggling will share what you just shared with us with them to start a conversation to open up that dialogue. Because the thing you just said it now, and it brought a thought to my mind that real love or real compassion is when you help someone get to the next step in their journey, not in your journey. Yeah.

And that means being able to be present with them wherever they are. It seems like a foreign alien land to you. I really feel like if anyone has anyone in their life who's struggling, please send that to them. Please share that with them because.

that they need to hear it from someone else who's been there sometimes also, because if you've not been there, you may not know how to say, and I think that's the other thing, right? The other side is one side is we say, oh, you should be happy, you're fine. The other side is we try and fix it. Yeah. You can't, right? Yeah, you can't solve it. You can't solve it. There is no, right, you can't solve it. The best

that we can do is like you can try to meet them where they are and let's get help. We can do it together and hold hands and get them to someone professional. I will say it's really healing when

someone can join you. It's also having that boundary of understanding too that you can only do but so much as well. A person has to really want help. And that's why I would tell the person that might be struggling to just stay open to try everything. You know what I mean? Like I tried everything until I found the thing.

And just keep walking until you find the thing. That obviously happens a lot later on, even when you start the book with that. But there was a time when you believed that Hollywood having it all would do it. Yes. Even before you get to this point. And also what I find fascinating is,

You grew up where like drug dealing was normal. You were in that scene, you were meeting people, everyone around you was in that scene. You weren't, as from what I gathered from the book in the time we've spent together, there weren't a lot of people who were breaking that mold. Yeah, no. What was it that made you a believe that you could move to LA when you were 18 and break that mold and that you didn't have to fall into the pattern of everyone around you?

And at the same time, secondly, what was it that made you believe that that would solve it, that that was what was missing. Thank goodness along the way, I had great mentors like Donald Hicken, you know, at Baltimore school for the arts that was like, Jada, you've got more talent in the pinky, you know, little pinky than most people have in their whole bodies, you know.

that he forced me to go into that audition for North Carolina School of the Arts, and that's what got me out of Baltimore, so that I could just get away from that lifestyle and break that mentality, right? And then once I got immersed again into my art,

I was like, wow, I really love this. And once I click into something, like my mind goes, peering, you know what I mean? And then Pop came to LA. Well, he wasn't in LA. He was in Northern California and Pop kept saying, you got to get out here. It's popping.

You know what I mean? And now he's like, you got to come out here and visit. And so I was like, all right, I'm going to get out there. Pop was another one too that was just like, you got it. Jada, you got it. And I'm like, all right, I'm coming. So I told my mom, I was like, you got two choices because I still wasn't quite sure yet. You know, I was like,

I could go to LA and see if I can do this Hollywood thing, or I could become a lawyer and take all my dramatics to the courthouse. And she said, we're going to LA. Wow. Once I got to LA, I was like, you're here.

make it happen. And part of what made me think that I could do it wasn't just about talent, but was just my perseverance and just my goal. I'm a pit bull when it comes to when I want something, you know, especially in my youth. I'm not so much a pit bull anymore.

But in my youth, you know, once I put my mind to something, I was like, go get it. And I really felt like how everybody else feels, you know? Like, yo, once I make it, once I'm rich and famous, all my problems are gonna be solved. You know what I mean? All my problems are gonna be solved. My mom's problems are gonna be solved, you know? Everybody's problems are gonna be solved. I got this. You know what I'm saying to so?

And that was a trip because that wasn't the case. And I think that that's still prevalent. People feel like once you get to a certain level of success, you are exempt from the human experience. You are exempt from the human condition. And the truth is,

That is not the case. And let me tell you, I had an existential drop in realizing, hold it, wait a minute, hold it. Like my career is popping. I got money, I'm hot. People are pursuing you. I got every dude everywhere wanting it. You know what I mean? Like I can have anybody I want.

Why am I not happy? God, now this wasn't the plan. I couldn't believe it, cause that was the whole idea. You make it, you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you make it in life's great. And thank goodness at that particular point of time, I had Pac that I could go, like we could share that together because he was going through the same existential disappointment.

He thought the same thing. That was like the beginning of just like, wait a minute, then if it's not this, then what is it? It's incredible that you had a supportive friend in Tupac. You had this amazing friend who was saying, you've got this, you're talented, and that can really help. Yeah. And at the same time, there's a whole nother inner journey. Yeah.

That has to happen with it, so that was externally, it was empowering, it was inspiring, it was great to have someone believe in you, and we all need that. And at the same time, it was like this other reminder of... The inner world was not together at all, and being completely ignored. You know, and it would take me years to realize that, that, oh no, it's not just about what's happening on the outside, Jada. But if your inner world is not your foundation, it's all sand castles.

You know, I had a nervous breakdown and I moved to Baltimore. I get a farmhouse there and I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna get out of LA. So I'm making a geographical move. I'm like, I just gotta get back to my roots. I gotta get back to my roots. And then Will comes along. And I'm like, maybe that's it. I need a man. You know, that is like latch on to that. It's like, okay, that's my new Prozac.

Well, now it's his job to make my life better. That doesn't work either. So the ego is just attached to all these different exterior things until eventually, I had to crash into really having to look at the shambles of my inner worlds and rebuild it. And I say rebuild it because I feel like when we're born,

That inner world is intact, but I had to really strip it all down, Jay, to the bare bones, the bolts, and just start inwardly from the bottom and just build. And it's been a wild ride. It's been a wild ride of what that means and what that looks like.

When it comes to your friendship with Tupac, which you speak about so beautifully in the book, and it's so wonderful because we get an insight into him in a way that you don't as just a fan of the music. So as someone who grew up listening to myself, it's like you get a certain perception of someone who's intelligent, but then also has this

gangster, lifestyle, persona, et cetera. But then again, when you get context and you get to know about someone through someone who actually knows them. And what I really appreciate, which I found fascinating was just how you had the wisdom at that time to know that someone would be a special friend without being romantic with them.

Yeah. He talks about it because I feel like a lot of people struggle. Yeah. He was obviously into you when you first met, et cetera, the way you describe it. But it's like,

And there's even one point where you dare him to... Exactly. And I wanted you to tell that. But what I find fascinating and what I want to help people with here is how were you able to create and build a relationship with someone, knowing initially that it was based on some attraction, but actually you knew there was so much more to it. How were you able to...

I allowed that to unfold because I think so many of us get so scared if we're not into someone, we go, okay, I'm just going to push them away. Or that person eventually tries to make a move anyway. But here it was like this beautiful respect. You both created that. Yeah, we both did. We both had the intelligence. You know, we were both really young. So I think, I think the great Supreme for this too, that there was no

physical chemistry between us. I mean, literally, it was like, and I try to explain this to people, it was the same for Park. It was just like, when I dared him to kiss me,

He was, I mean, it was like, ew, for us both, right? And we'd look as like, how can that be? How can you feel so connected to someone of the opposite sex? There was just this beautiful understanding, you know, when you can just sit with somebody in the room, you don't have to say a word.

And there's just this level of comfort. We just knew each other. The moment Pac saw me in our eyes, and I saw his peanut head across the room at Baltimore School of the Arts, it was like I knew him already.

We just got each other. I just understood him. In that understanding, and he understood me, so we could pull each other's coattails, but we could also join each other. When I talk about that joining, when you can sit with somebody and really feel like they see you, they understand you, they care about you, and they're going to be there by you no matter what. That was Tupac.

He was gonna ride with me no matter what. He was so authentic and it's rare that that level of authenticity and he was so, he had wore his heart on his sleeve and there was just this amount of loyalty between us. And I think also the fact that we both struggled with mothers who were addicts and we tried to compensate

for one another of not having that peace. And we didn't boo-hoo about it. We understood how to fill in the voids without getting all hallmark-y about it.

You know what I mean? And so we just kind of knew how to flow with each other in a way that was very comfortable. It's always hard to kind of explain because it's almost like he was really a kindred. That's the only way I could really explain it. And I feel so lucky and so blessed that I got to know a being like himself in that way because he was such a dynamic person.

but you can feel it because his music is still lasting for generations now. Absolutely. So he was just a treasure. Teach us what's the difference between sexual chemistry and energetic connection or authentic connection because I think we often think that to get close to someone, you need that.

And here it's not just about the fact that there wasn't attraction or what it was there's more to it in that I feel like there's a subtle difference in how you were able to accept that there is a authentic connection. But it doesn't have to include it doesn't physical chemistry in order to have a deep energetic connection if that makes sense as a.

I actually think in my experience, some of the deepest connections that I've had with men have not included sex whatsoever, right? And I think that sex sometimes can cloud things.

A lot of things come in that a lot of people don't understand. So, you know, whether it's like certain levels of emotional trauma, all these kinds of things. Energetically, the heart-to-heart spirit space has a level of purity to it, where even if things get difficult, like when things would get challenging with Pac and I, we could get to it fast. And there's just a level of purity

and it's not attached to, I wanna make things right with you so I can sleep with you. You know what I mean? It's not that agenda. The agendas are pure. They're more pure and it has more space. It's like, I love you, but you gotta live your life. I love you. I can be truthful. I can be honest. I think that with us, I could be more of myself

Because one thing I knew about Pac, I never had to worry about, you know, when we had big blowups, which we did, all the time. He's coming back. I never worried about that. I never worried about, oh my God. No, he wasn't. Listen, whoever's a year, whoever's a year, a week, three days. I had to love all that Pac was. He loved all that I was, the good and the bad.

He was going to be right there with that. And vice versa. That was one of the most beautiful aspects of our relationship. We didn't have to fake it. We didn't have to like pretend to be other things. And we could be honest. He could pull my coattails. I could pull his coattails. I could give him all the praise and love on him. All I wanted to and not have to worry about.

Oh, now we're gonna have to have sex. None of that, because that wasn't happening. We just didn't have it. We just didn't have it. I think if Park had survived Vegas, he and Will would have ended up being really good friends. They would have had a lot to offer one another. And funny enough,

Will was the only person when I started dating him, Pock never said anything. If I dated anybody else, Pock had something to say. He didn't think anybody was good enough, which I understand, right? But when I started dating Will, he didn't say anything, which meant to me, in his own way, he approved. Yeah, right. He didn't say anything, which was like, okay, a not a word.

which made me believe he approved. Yeah. No, I think it's so beautiful to reflect on that friendship because I think it's so hope giving to so many people who, you know, sometimes lose out on those kind of relationships because we don't see where else it can go. Oh, it goes so many. There's so much value to that. And there's the, you know, the part in the book where you talk about how you never got to be there

When Vegas happened, like you weren't there. You hadn't talked for a year, I think, at the time. We had a big blow up. What would you have said to him? Or what would you say to him? Or what did you want him to know? Or what were you so sure that he already knew and you're thinking to yourself, I just wanted to remind him of this. What would that be? I didn't have to remind him of anything. He knew it. Pock knew. I adored him. I have no doubt in my mind that

He left this world knowing that. What a great feeling. Yeah, that's never been the issue for me. We did that dance a lot, sometimes have blowups and we were both very stubborn. And I'll let people read the book to that blow up and what led to that. But I think sometimes what sometimes still hurts is that me feeling like maybe I couldn't

do enough once he left. Like I'm thinking to myself, oh my God, what would Pac have done? Like if it had been me in a car in Vegas and got, you know, he would have wreaked havoc so that ego sometimes comes into play like just feeling so helpless that he was taken in that way and there was nothing

I could do to this day that nozzle me.

You know, for what it's worth, I really believe that the way you write, and by the way, everyone who's listening and watching, there is so much more to unpack in the book, which I highly recommend you read as you're going through it and you'll come to this part. But I really believe that the way you honor and appreciate and respect your dear friend in the book is really beautiful and special. And it's like, it's hard to describe as well, but it's a really wonderful lens into a human.

I love that. That is so, you know, larger than life in so many ways. And I wanted to also kind of, there's been so many misconceptions about our relationship because people are like, you know, have a difficult time understanding that he and I could actually be friends, but just wanted to give people such just an insight on, you know, the beauty of our friendship that I just cherish to this day. So very much, you know, and I wanted to give people a different

outlook just of who he was and I'll say who he is because he still exists. But so I really wanted that to come across. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we got to understand him, I think, through you, through the perspective of

not a rapper, not a icon, not a better, a human and a friend. And like what he was like as a friend. And I think that that's a very intimate way to know about someone. So I love that. I wanted to talk to you about, you mentioned there, you were like, Will was the only person that Park didn't have an issue. Yeah, that I did. And I love that. And you know how much, I mean, you know, I've always been open about it. And we've talked about it. And I met Will through you. And it's like, I

I've always said that when I met you and the whole family, and when I met him, you were everything and more, all of you are everything and more. And what I mean by that is everything I'd wanted you to be plus so much more. And he's that too, in so many ways.

And I think that it's really interesting because when you're talking about in the book of like, I love the conversation you refer to and you're like, your mom's like, you know, get him off the phone. See that's one of our moments. Yeah, that's exactly. But what I love about it the most is that it is true that from the outside, as you said it up, it looks like a fairy tale. And it felt like that. And what I find really fascinating about this again and again and again, pretty much with everyone is that

There is no fairy tale love anywhere on the planet. No, on the planet. And, you know, in our own little way, I always talk about this with me and Radi too. It's like, we'll do an interview together where Radi will tell me all the challenges she has with me and she'll be crying and upset. And then everyone in the comments will still be like, you guys are so cute. I'm like, no, no, no, we're not trying to say we're cute. Like this is like real issues, like real stuff that, you know, we've talked about obviously you spent a ton of time with me and Radi. And so,

I think for me, what's really interesting is that yes, from the outside, when you see two incredible actors, performers, artists, talent, get together, you're like, wow, powerhouse couple, everyone projects their expectations. You have beautiful, adorable kids, you know, like Jayden's acting and he's like,

the cutest thing in the world, and then Willow too, and it's like, it's so interesting because we also, we like to build up our dreams in people, and we like to project our dreams onto people because I think

as viewers, it makes us believe that it's possible. And we live through people and we aspire for it, not that we aspire for the success and the fame, but that we aspire for the like, well, if they can get it right, then I can get it right. And it's not, it's an innocent belief that we all have. It's not a, we all have that inside of us. So we have, we all have this, I know that I had that like, you know, I was, I was searched at the other day and it's a term, it's Disney princess syndrome.

And I was like, I've had Disney princess syndrome, like myself, like a ton of times. And it's so fascinating to be for anyone who doesn't get the reference. The point is that every Disney princess is always looking for her prince. And I would say regardless of gender, that's true. Like I feel that way where I've been looking for my princess or my win or my award or whatever it may be.

I wanted you to walk us through like what were the stages and how would you define the stages as you do in this book, your stages of your relationship with Will? Because I feel that that's the part that people get blurry because they're looking at it through their lens. But you both have been so clear about stages of your relationship internally, which I actually think is the hardest part.

And so how would you define the stages of your partnership with Will that help people understand the conversations that you're having behind the scenes from being madly in love to... The stages of getting to the most authentic and it's difficult. So I just want to honor that for a second. It's almost like talking about

relationships and the romanticism around the idea of relating is sometimes

as detrimental as talking about politics and God. Because it's such a staple in how people look at marriage and relating culturally, right? And all of the romanticism around it. And Will and I have been what I would consider kind of the relationship goals.

this romanticized version. I had to, in my own relationship with Will.

dissolve my romanticism around what I thought marriage would be, should be. And honestly, we really never had what I would consider the ideal honeymoon stage, you know, even though you do have the honeymoon stage, but our relationship started with some challenges, you know, because he was divorcing. And then I life just took off like a

rocket ship. We just took on this huge life in our early 20s. And where his focus was really about, hey, I want to be the biggest movie star in the world. And I knew that.

going into our relationship and I knew there would be sacrifices with that. And then along the way, and I'll talk about this in the book, just having those different perspectives and really trying to figure out how to reconcile those different perspectives.

and also deal with a lot of challenges. So I think one of the things that I address in the book in regards to people thinking that we've had an open marriage, and we haven't had an open marriage. I talk about starting off pretty much early on in our

marriage of having the need for transparency. And that is a big difference between, hey, you can do whatever you want, you know, versus like, hey, here we are. Very young people in this place called Hollywood.

that has a lot of temptation. Let's have a partnership around this. Let's be very realistic of what this life is. If we're talking about we're going to be together forever and ever and ever, that means there's going to be some temptations that come up. Let's be in partnership and let's talk about that. I didn't go into my marriage like I am going to be.

My husband is never, ever, ever gonna look at anybody else, you know what I mean? Like, I just, I am just a realist in a lot of ways. I know what it's been like for me.

Right? When I first came to Hollywood and I could go into the clubs and have anybody, just the level of just like, that just, that like, you know what I mean? It's just like, you just, it's so intoxicating. That's one. Now what I do believe that what people don't know that I talk about in the book a lot is that there have been several breakups

between Will and I. Will talks about it my 40th birthday, which was a big breakup for us. We were actually looking towards separating and divorcing. And we separated. The world just didn't know. Then we had a reconciliation. And then 2016 came.

and we had the ultimate break. But the world did it no. And I think that that's where some of the misconception about having an open marriage came into play because we were living lives as single people.

and the world didn't know. Over the span of 12 years of just trying to figure out this thing called love and marriage between Will and I, it's been a trip. And I think that even with that entanglement piece, which I talk about extensively in the book,

how I played a part in the misconception of that narrative of allowing myself to be portrayed as an adulterous, allowing myself to be portrayed as someone that had betrayed Will. And that wasn't the case. We broke up in 2016. He went on to live a life as a single man. I went on to live a life as a single woman. And then when we had the talk at the red table, I was going to go to the red table by myself.

to talk about the entanglement. But Will decided he wanted to come with me. And we were going to then tell the world, hey, we haven't been together. And this happened during that time. Well, when we got to the table, Will wasn't ready.

He wasn't ready. He wasn't ready for the world to know that. I had to respect that. Well, I didn't have to, but I wanted to. But I was ready. I was ready to let go of the persona I had created around myself that had put me in a golden cage. I wanted to let that go. And so I had to stay on my journey. I had to stay on my path while also respecting

That will wasn't ready. So I said, you know what? This is my mess anyway. I'm going to take this heat because guess what? The heat is coming either way. When we decide to get divorced, when we decide to separate whatever, whatever, this is my practice run. Strip it down.

Let it go, Jada. And then let's see what's left. I didn't have to put that particular show out, but I had already gotten myself so ready for that journey for myself. And to me, that was moving closer to my freedom, then holding back.

and creating a narrative that I felt like was just gonna entrap me more. And as difficult as it's been, because the irony is I spent so much of our relationship having this open communication between the, between he and I, creating this beautiful friendship of authenticity and honesty.

And so to be labeled as someone who had cheated on him was devastating, but it also put me in a position where I had to learn how to let go of what anybody thought about me and really be ten toes down on understanding who I am and being able to walk in that

no matter what anybody thought about me. But I needed that journey for myself. You know, it's kind of like that is the walk when they talk about walking on hot coals. It's like creating that level of when we talk about that inner world work.

and creating that like strong foundation within yourself of knowing exactly who you are, no matter what other people think about you. I mean, I've gotten that to a certain degree. And so that was a very challenging moment. And I talk about it in the book because I feel like so many people are challenged in that way of like,

How can I just walk in this world and be okay with myself no matter what? And I talk about the journey, you know, really extensively in the book. But there have been so many misconceptions about my relationship.

with will, but I think that everybody suffers misconceptions. Once again, whether you're head of that PTA and your husband's that doctor and you're the lawyer, you're like the crumb de la crumb of your friend group or, you know, of your community. And so everybody's expecting you to have a certain kind of marriage and marriage is a journey.

You know, and it's a journey towards learning how to love yourself and learning how to love your partner. And there's not one way to do it. And everybody, I think we do that journey, a real disservice of trying to make it this cookie cut thing. Like, no, no, no, you can only do it this way.

And it's like each and every person in their relationship, they have to look at what their relationship is calling for in regards to what is needed to get your marriage.

to the love, to the strength, to the understanding, to the friendship, and to that unconditional place. And the unfortunate part is that we think once we get married, like somebody's ready-made, they know how to love you, even though they don't know how to love themselves. They don't know how to love themselves, but you better know how to love me.

I want to highlight because I think it's often can be missed at least is you know when you had that conversation on Red Table talk, it would have been so easy to not have that conversation. Because people would have their rumors, it would blow over and then it would be over. And I'm only raising this because

I know how much for you it was part of the work you were doing. Yeah. And that's why I'm raising this because I think what's really interesting is that when someone's trying to do deep inner healing work. Yeah.

actually more often than not, their external way will not make sense. Because it literally looks like you're setting yourself up to fail. Because when you're really trying to dismantle the ego or you're really trying to deconstruct the false identities that we all build up, me included, all of us,

when that is there and it's being deconstructed, someone would look at you and be like, why would you do that? Why do I need to know? And really, I just want to highlight, and I want you to share about that, that the intention was healing. The intention wasn't to save face or the intent. And I know this because we were talking about it. The intention wasn't

Yeah, it wasn't to say face, and it surely wasn't, and I need people to know. I didn't ask Bill to come to the table. Yeah, yeah. That was not my idea. Will wanted to come to the table because he didn't want me to be there by myself. He had all the best intentions. And got there and was, I think his trauma response kicked in, like, I'm not ready. So many people were like, don't do this. And I'm like, nah.

I'm doing it for myself, for myself, because I want to live because I'm ready. I don't want this whole thing anymore.

This whole Jada will, I'm done with that. It was part of the work that I was ready for. And it was what I needed. And everybody's in different places in their journey. Also, that's also a dynamic I had to look at within myself in regards to. So it was two things. There's this healthy Jada is like tear it down. I don't want that persona anymore. Tear my ego down. And there was this other part of me that was like, oh my God, I need to pretend.

He's not ready, you know, he's not ready. My, you know, codependency kicks in and I go, this is what I do. I'm the martyr. I can do the martyr thing. So once again, it's both things. It's healing. Like I'm ready. Like I'm ready for, I'm ready for the tear now. And then this martyr that's like,

And I want to make sure, Will, as long as you're okay, I'm okay. That's part of my relationship with my mother's addiction that I brought into my relationship with Will, that created a certain dynamic within myself, in my relationship with him, that I also needed to get my eyes on, that I didn't see, that that needed to be healed as well. Without that table,

Without that moment, I would have never recognized that. As painful as it was for people to watch existential disappointment in a collective. I'm so sorry. I wish it could have happened another way. I'm sorry that it had to be so messy in front of everybody. I'm sorry, but

I needed that. What I got to clear up, what I got to clean up, what I got to see, and to be able to sit here with you today and embrace it all and have so much acceptance for myself, for all of the choices I've made. And people ask me,

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I mean, these are these legends, right? Apparently, this guy Juan Mendes, he was making these tacos wrapped in these huge tortillas to keep it warm, and he was transporting them in a rural, hence the name, the burritos. Listen to Hungry for History with Ivar Longoria and Maita Gomez-Rejón as part of the Michael Dura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Honestly, knowing and talking to you, I found it to be so courageous.

and so full of strength because it was putting yourself on the spot like in no other way. And I can't even begin to understand how uncomfortable it is. I only came from the conversations we had. Well, you were right there with me, Jay. The level of discomfort that you were willing to put yourself in. Yeah.

in order to let go of an identity, in order to let go of a perception. I'm saying it in these words because I just want everyone who's listening, watching, just to think about it for a second. Imagine you had to go in front of everyone you knew.

your family, your friends, your school, whoever it is that you're around, your people at work, and you had to share a secret that wasn't a secret between you and the person you're with, but was a secret to them. Just think about that whatever that secret is, everyone has secrets, everyone has something, and to do that requires just so much courage and strength and

It also shows the, I think you were just apologizing that it was so messy. I also think that it is uncomfortable, like growth is uncomfortable and like letting go of shedding identities is uncomfortable. And I'm not comparing my experience to you as a 12, because it's not the same in anyway. But I'm trying to explain how like a tiny PDA, like my kind of like version of it is still as big. I remember the day I told my friends and my family and my teachers that I no longer thought I could be a monk.

And it sounds so small, like now looking back. But at the time, I was dedicating my life. You've met my teachers, and you know, I'm dedicating my life. I'm like doing this big thing. And then all of a sudden, I come to the conclusion that this sport in my head of I'm not good enough, I'm not a monk, I'm not meant to be. Like, this isn't my path, I've had the desire. Whatever it may be, I think I should get married. You know, all this stuff.

and you feel so much shame around the fact that you're not good enough and what are people gonna say? And even for me, that was just my temple community and my friends and my family. And even then it was like as if someone was ripping my ego out of my chest, because that's what it feels like. It feels like an extraction of, you know, not that I'm ego less now, but that was such a big way of crushing that part of my ego.

And so I just want people to think about it through that perspective. And I'm saying it because I think that we all go through periods in our life where people misunderstand us. We all go through periods in our life where the people we thought loved us and adored us will now be let down. We all go through experiences in our life where we have to let go of someone that we thought we were or what people thought we were. And those are gonna be the hardest, most painful times. And actually,

if we can learn to be graceful instead of when our friends are getting divorced. And we're like, did you hear something? We had that. A couple of people in my community back at home just got divorced. The whole community is talking about it. And I'm just like, guys, we have no idea what was going on for the last 10, 20 years.

Let's give them grace because you never know when that could be you. You have no idea when it could be you. It's so easy to judge and throw stones at anyone and everyone. And I just really feel that.

If we have the ability to be graceful and compassionate when other people are doing that, we'll actually do it with ourselves. And because we're hard on ourselves, we're hard on others. We're hard on others. We're hard on ourselves. And I just, for me, I just want to see more people be graceful for themselves and for others because there's so much human experience wrapped up in it. Yeah, that's my hope too, you know, that people can have

more grace for themselves, but I tell you, I think one of the

saving factors was that, you know, there were no secrets between Will and I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there were no secrets between my kids and I. Yes. So the fact that my family was absolutely aware of the entire journey, it was a saving grace for me. Whatever the world wants to think is whatever.

you know, Will knows he was not betrayed, and my kids know that I did not betray their father. And that to me, all that matters. But it was quite an exercise of having to walk in the world like that, you know, having people think.

that that's what happened. Just having that exercise in that way has been such a healing factor for me of just the level of self-love, the level of self-worth that I have because of what that experience has offered me.

And I'm not saying that anybody else should do it on that level. But what I am saying is that there are ego deaths that have to occur in order to get to a more authentic place of self-worth and self-love.

And I want to talk about the little gurus as you call them in the book. We start with Trey who, you know, this book is dedicated to your daughter and the daughters of the people that read it and to your sons and to the sons of the people that read it. And I wonder what is it that you think you've learned from Trey that you've been taught by Jaden and that you've been taught by Willa?

in your journey with them all because you have such a, whenever I've seen you with them, it's, you have such a deep, beautiful, rich relationship with your kids. We were talking about that earlier. Yeah. I'd love to know what is it that each of them have taught you.

Trey, he has such an enormous heart. And I think what I love about Trey is his ability to meet people, join people where they are, his ability to join me. He has a way of seeing the best in people, no matter what, the best in circumstances, no matter what. And even in his most challenging times,

challenging relationships, having the willingness to see the person's spirit versus personality. And he's always reminded me of that.

You know, mom, you know, that person, you know what I mean? And I'm like, you know what, try you right. He and I have kind of been walking parallel. We'll look over at each other and go, I see you and I see you. You know what I mean? And so, you know, we're the two in the family that's really been.

on a intense walk spiritually. And he has so much perseverance in regards to understanding God, finding his way, understanding life. I don't know. He's just such a light. So iron sharpens iron. He'll walk in the kitchen and he'll go,

Mom, look at me. What do you think I'm feeling today? You know what I mean? Or he'll look at me and go, wow, you know, you're like bright. What's going on with you? Like he can just see me and he could see people, you know, and I'd be like, wow, how did you see that? Yeah, this is happening. This is like, really? You know, and he's, he's just, he's just such a light. He's just such a joy. And so he just is always reminding me to look for

the best in people. And I just adore him. That's why he's a bonus. And then Willow, she's such a fireball. I mean, she is like the mirror of the fire of my soul.

When I tell you, she is the mirror of that. Like I get to see myself in her in so many ways. What I love most about Willow is that she is to the point. You know what I mean? She is like, she doesn't have a whole lot of play play. She's just like, no, no.

She just hits it on the mark where sometimes I can be very flowery, you know, very gentle. And I also love how she loves me. She teaches me a lot about love. She teaches me a lot about, when I talked about being able to join, like she teaches me a lot about how to join her and how to join others in ways that I'm not used to.

I know how to join others in ways that I'm used to, but me having to learn how to join her in a certain manner. I've had to come out of my comfort zones and really be like, oh, man, I'm very deficient here. And her patience with me with that deficiency. She's so patient with me. She's like, it's okay, mom. You know, sometimes I don't need you to talk to me. Mom, just hold me. I'm like, oh, that's all you want me to do. You just want me. That's all. I'm not used to that.

You know, I don't come from a family where affection, you know, that we don't hug each other and hold each other. That's not what we did. But Willow, I don't need your advice. I just want to sit here, hold me while I cry. And then I have to learn how to, I've had to, she's taught me how to hold tears.

and really be able to join with those tears and not rebel and have them repel because then they bring up my tears. And so she's learned, she's taught me how to love my tears too. Those places within myself that I haven't always been willing to go. And now I cry all the time. And I call it the thawing because for so long, I wasn't allowed. I didn't allow myself to cry. So she's taught me that.

And then there's Jaden. Oh man, Jaden, he's just walking joy. I mean, he comes in the room. It's just like, Jaden, you know, he's just walking joy, but he was like that when I carried him. I was the happiest I had ever been in my life when I was pregnant with Jaden. And I think that had a lot to do with the energy that he carries. He has the capacity to love everything.

And that is difficulty, challenging people, challenging situations. He has the capacity to love it all and find the beauty in it. And I'm talking about sincerely, and it is light. That's a God-given gift.

That's not, you can't teach that. And so he just, I was sitting out, you know, I was just talking to him to the other day and I was just like, oh, I was reading this book, emotionally immature parents. And I was like, Jane, you got to read this book. Your mother has been an emotionally immature parents. I said, you got to read this book. And he said, um, you know what, ma?

He said, things from afar can look a certain way. But when you put a microscope up on something and you look at it close up, he was like, it is such a weird shape.

weird, beautiful shapes of things, but you get to see the intricacies of it. And it's so much more. And that's what you are to me. You're like this beautiful, intricate organism that I love so much. Don't ever apologize to me again. That's so mean. You thought of it. And that's just how his mind works.

you know, and he comes over and he hugs me and he kisses me on my forehead, you know what I'm saying? And he's like,

You gave birth to me that don't ever apologize to me, you know? And he's like, and I'm not reading that book. I said, I'm going to get you the book anyway. You know, I'm always apologizing to my kids about all kinds of things. I think it's so important for parents to apologize. Say sorry, you know, I've gotten in the habit every little like, if I misunderstand something or if there's like this like little glipper, you know what?

I didn't quite get that then. I'm so sorry. I apologize. I'm going to do better next time with that. And thank you for your patience. I think it's important, you know. I wish my father had apologized to me more.

My mom apologizes too. I actually learned that from her. She's apologized a lot. And I actually said the same thing to her. Now that I'm thinking about it, stop apologizing. But isn't that those are the best relationships where someone does something? Yeah. And the other person is like, it's fine. Yeah. And that's what kind of it's, it's that relationship where

Internally, you're happy you heard it, but you know you didn't need to. But the person still felt the need to say it. And it creates so much clarity. And, you know, when I told Willow, you were coming on today, she sent a little no because

I was talking to her about it and I was talking to her about the book. And so she sent this little note that I want to read to you if that's okay. Oh my God, let me get my napkin. So she said, this is from Willa. And Willa, if I don't read it as you would in your amazing voice, then please forgive me. I'm also apologizing to you in advance. Mom, I am incomprehensibly proud of you and all of the inner excavation you have done during the writing of your book.

There were many times during the process where you would read me sections and deep emotions would come up for us both. Learning from you through learning about you is one of the biggest joys of my life. You never cease to inspire me with how wide you've opened your heart, not only to the immense joys of life, but also to the deep uncertainties and shadows with equal gratitude and grace.

You have shown me true tenderness and true strength come from the same place within. And that is something that I aspire to show others. Thank you for loving me. I'm so grateful for you. And the guru, that's the little guru right there.

There it is. She loves you so much. And they all obviously love you so much. But when I read that and when I was reflecting on it, it was just, and as me and Radhi always talk about this, because we've watched you and Willow so many times together. And it has been so inspiring to us to see that connection you both have and the openness you have with your kids and how well they understand you. And, you know, as you were just saying, you always apologizing, but that's what they're seeing.

Yeah. They see that because you're so willing to share with them. Yeah. I don't keep secrets from my kids. I've let them see my deepest flaws. And I think that's important. I mean, and not in the way that

We have to be careful with that too. But I mean, just as far as like, it's okay to be human, not being afraid to show my humanness. Cause that's the one thing with my mother that I have so much gratitude for, that I could see her as a human being. And my relationship with, you know, my mother being an addict and me being able to relate to her as

not just my mother, but as a woman, you know, as a person. And I think that was one aspect that I felt like I really needed to bring into my relationship with my kids, for them to see me as a person. We're in this together. It comes across when I've witnessed it. It's the most beautiful thing I could only ever dream that

when Radi and I are able to do that, that, you know, that we have what you have. It's really special. It's remarkable to watch in practice. And I mean that, you know, the message says it all. But Cheda, I wanted, you know, I, throughout this book, and even in this interview today, I think, I was going to save this to say it later, but I'm going to say it now. I've been sharing

spirituality with people in different ways since I was 18 years old. And

I was so young and immature then in my spirituality and I still am today and that will always continue. And I've just been fortunate to sit at the feet of incredible teachers and mentors. And so any realization I've had earlier than I should have had it is because of sitting with elders and sitting with the teachers I've introduced you to. And I've rarely met someone who's as eager for healing as you.

I don't think I've met a family that's more where healing is the top priority. It's such an interesting thing to perceive in someone because you can tell by someone's language and when their eyes light up and their body language changes as to what they are motivated by.

And ever since I met you from the first day we met backstage green room for Red Table Talk series two launch day event, I was getting to host an interview, you, Daniel and Willow. And I remember you'd asked me like, what did you learn as a monk?

And I'd said to you, I was giving to you what I did learn as practices, but I wasn't getting to the root of it. So I was explaining the practices like gratitude and meditation and mindfulness and

service. And you were, you were kind of just like, Oh, that's cool. Like, you know, it was, and then I'd said to you, because I felt a inner voice say that I should, and it was truly guided from within. And I said to you, I learned how to love God. And that was

potentially the first time I'd even said that in that way to someone. And you just like your whole body language and your eyes and everything just changed. And everyone else was late. So we were just talking and you were like,

I want to learn how to love God too. And you'd obviously already been on that journey for decades. And you talk about it in the book where you started with the ethical society. That had been a journey that had been a part of your journey forever. But it was so interesting to meet someone and an entire family who is more focused on healing and growth.

and God in their own way, in your own language, in your own ways, then anything else. We've never had a conversation that steers too far away from any of those things, which says, and we are fun and we have a good time and everything. And the reason I raised that is because I also saw that

When you were talking about Oscars night in the book, you referred to as the holy slap and the holy joke. And you've always looked at everything through the lens of how is this bringing me closer to the divine. I remember one conversation we had about the feminine divine.

And I will never forget it because we, at this point, we'd been doing, we'd been talking twice a week for like a year and a half or something. And we were talking about a specific aspect of the divine feminine, which is often left out or forgotten or hidden. I'd never seen anyone respond in a way so,

sincerely and genuinely to a vision of God as you did. And you said, with tears in your eyes, you're like, I've been looking for this God for 25 years. And I remember just going, like I could just see the genuineness and the sincerity in your eyes. And I was just like, wow, like I hope I can love like that one day. Like that's actually what I felt like as in it was so inspiring.

And I know that I've got closer to divinity through our work. And that's because of your seeking. And you've pulled me closer to the divine through your seeking, which you've given me the greatest gift for years and years and years ever since I've known you. And it's your ability to look for that. And so I wanted to talk to you about, you know, I think when,

when it all went down on Oscar's night there, and you talk about this in the book, and so I want to leave everyone to read about it in full. But the perception was that you were so offended that you'd kind of urge this action, which is bizarre in and of itself for so many reasons that you lay out in the book. But I want to hear from you, like, what were you actually hurt by about the condition that you were going through?

and in that gap between what we saw and what we didn't get to see, which everyone had their own theory on, what was actually your thought space or where were you? Let me start with that was a really layered moment. Let me start with also that

there was so much that people didn't know in regards to what was happening with Will and I at that time. And I will leave for people to get the book. Yeah, absolutely. Because there's so much history. And you go into it. You break it down. I break it down. Hence why I did not. Exactly. There's so much history that I think would give people a lot more context to understand that moment.

Let me also say that I know there was a difficult moment to watch because of history that Chris and I had in regards to the 2016 Oscar so white.

and I'll let people read to get up to speed on that. But when I first saw Chris's name come on stage, come up as one of the presenters, I said, oh boy, I look to Will and I was like, he's not gonna be able to help himself. This is gonna be something. I was like, I knew, I already knew. And I was like, okay. So Will had been going back and forth backstage all night. So when Chris said what he said,

I looked to Will as if to say, see, I knew it. And then I was like, oh, boy, that's not cool to talk about a medical condition that people, there's nothing you can do. It's not something that can be cured.

How many stories I had heard of people, you know, young people committing suicide and the shame and just how many people suffer? And you don't even know. Like once I had the condition and I saw how many people around me had it, I was like, all these years I didn't know and people express the shame, the level of shame they had around it. I'm gonna be okay. As far as my condition, and as you can see, my hair is growing back. That's what it does. It'll grow, it'll fall out, it'll grow back again.

Pieces of my eyebrows are fall out, grow back. You know, I'm having a good moment right now. My alopecia is not as extreme as most people who are dealing with that condition. And I just felt like that's not okay.

So I wasn't upset about me. And I don't remember actually rolling my eyes. I think what people saw was me looking at Will going, I told you, I knew he was gonna do that. And oh boy, here we go again. Yeah, that was kind of the end. Yeah, you know, oh, here we go. But I wasn't upset about me. It really wasn't. It wasn't about me. It was just all the stories I had heard and that I continue to hear about people who have suffered from this condition.

And obviously you didn't want what happened to happen. Like I think that was just clarifying. I know that. I'm just clarifying it. Of course. It wasn't like I looked at Will and said, you know, you know. I know, but and that's the kind of, you know, those are the kind of moments of context that I lost sometimes. Listen, there was an aspect of that that I was as shocked as anyone because Will and I hadn't been referring to each other as husband and wife since 2016.

I was like, wife of me? That's right. Yeah, I'm okay. That's right. I am your wife. And that kicked in. I'm like, yep, here we are. In that moment that that did happen, I was like, we came together, we're leaving together. You know, that part of me that put everything else aside and was like, this is gonna be something. I need to make sure, will's okay, we're gonna get through this.

I had no idea that that was none whatsoever. And I came as family. I actually didn't go to the Oscars as Will's wife. And I know for people that's weird. But what was going on behind the scenes? Will and I had been like, we weren't living as husband and wife since 2016. I was happy he asked me to go. I was happy he wanted to share that moment with me still.

And I was gonna be by his side. And I think also people weren't really aware of the journey that had taken place after emancipation as far as Will's concern. It was a really difficult movie. And afterwards, he decided to get into therapeutic settings and he asked me to join him.

because a lot of stuff was coming up. A lot of stuff from his past, childhood stuff. I think people didn't understand that there was a history there between he and Chris as well. So there was a lot of context that people just didn't have. And I'm gonna tell you something else. I understand why people thought it was me. I understand why people blame me. I don't think it's right, but I understand considering the narratives that were out there that I was part of. I have to take responsibility for that.

And I talk about that in the book, you know, me being the adulterous wife that, you know, pushed Will to his limit. I get it. So I couldn't even take any of it personally. And I had to put myself in the shoes of the audience and go, if I was looking at this, what would I say? I probably would have said the same thing. And then that made me really look at like, oh man, like culturally, we're always blaming women. Like I had to really go deep into that. Why do we do that?

You know, that men of power that have so much of their ownness in their life, but when something bad happens, it's a woman's fault. You know what I mean? It's so interesting, you know, and I had, I really started to examine that, but more so just looking at that narrative and taking responsibility.

And at the same time, there was love and compassion for Chris. There was that. Oh, yeah. You know, I talk about that in the book. I've worked with Chris. I know Chris. Am I always a fan of Chris's stage work? No, but Chris is a person. He's a sweet guy. There was a moment when Chris came down to the end of the stage.

And you have to understand I'm in deep confusion. I don't know what's going on because of me understanding the context of Will and I behind the scenes, what just happened on the stage. I'm worried about Will. I've never seen that from him. I don't know what's going on. But Chris comes to the end of the stage.

And he looks at me deeply sincerely. And he says, Jada, I met no harm. And it was so sincere in his eyes.

I'm like, that's the Chris I know. That's the Chris I've experienced. That's the Chris that a lot of people don't get to see because people just see Chris on stage doing what Chris does. But I'm glad I had that moment because with everything else that transpired afterwards, his Netflix, certain comments and all of that, I could hold on to that sincere moment.

So when we talk about looking past personality, when somebody has had that opportunity to show you their heart, to show you their spirit, that's the truth. Not all the other stuff that hurt misunderstanding, confusion might bring up. So where my feelings hurt, when I heard what was happening as far as the Netflix, of course, my feelings were hurt, but I didn't take it personally.

because I can see his eyes right now as I'm talking to you. And that's the truth of Christ's spirit. Jada, I meant no harm. I talk about it in the book. It's like, you gotta have grace. When we're hurt, I'm not saying that I agree with how it was handled. I don't agree with it, but I understand.

And so my hope is that there will be such a beautiful opportunity for healing. And my hope is that that will occur as time. Everything needs time. You have two beautiful men who have hurts.

and who have hurt one another. But they're both beautiful men. And as I said before, my hope is that these two, very capable, beautiful men at some time, figure out how to resolve.

this whole thing of the present and of the past, you know, because life is about healing man. It's like life's too short. And you know, sometimes conflicts can really amplify love. They really can. I know it has for me. And that's why I called that chapter, the holy slap, the holy joke, the holy slap and the holy lessons because

through all of this conflict that I've been in the midst of, all this misunderstanding that I've been in the midst of, it's helped amplify love within my heart. It's made my heart more elastic. Hate, and I really have been able to understand how hate has a ceiling. You know, hate aggression. It has a ceiling, whereas love is all. Wow.

But it takes so much courage and it's so easy to go into aggression. It's so easy to go into, you know, hateful feelings. It's easy. And I can't blame anybody for doing it and I have no judgment because guess what? Been there, done that.

When you started today, you said that this is your journey from being unlovable to trying to find love again. It's really the true story of all of our lives. We're all on that journey of

being unlovable, thinking that if someone loves us will be fine, then thinking that if we get or achieve this will be fine. Then thinking, if I love this person perfectly, then I'll be fine. And it's like we keep filling in that sentence between unlovable to lovable with so many versions. And I think what this book

This memoir does so beautifully, honestly, is you show us every version that you tried to fit in that gap. Right? Every version. Every version that you tried to fit in that gap, you're just showing us the reality of what that comes with, like the pain that comes with trying to fit everything into that gap.

And I appreciate you for doing that because it's hard to not turn every story into a fairy tale ending. Yeah. Perfect ending. And there isn't that here. And I think that that's what truly makes it relatable. It's what truly makes it applicable wherever we are on our journeys on that spectrum and anyone else's. And it's why I said that. I really hope that anyone who's on that journey themselves will pick this book up and

be able to notice which gap they're trying to fill it with. Yeah. And come back in, if that sounds, if that feels right, if that. That's really right.

Hey everybody, welcome to Across Generations, where the voices of Black women unite in powerful conversations. I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. Tiffany Cross. I want you all to join me and be a part of Sisterhood, friendship, wisdom, and laughter. In every episode, we gather a seasoned elder. But even when a child is no such thing as the wrong thing, if you love them. Myself, as the middle generation,

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It's like, because you're right. It's like all these, it's like, okay, that didn't work. Let me go over here. Let me try this. And then it just, nope, you got to, you got to heal you.

and you gotta really get with a power higher than yourself. And I wanna thank you for really being so helpful in so many ways, Jay, in regards to, you talk about, I mean, we've been on such a beautiful journey together in that way of just learning and deepening our relationship with God individually together.

I so appreciate you for that. I mean, you have been so instrumental in that way. I genuinely can't take any credit. Like, I'm not even, I'm not even. And that's not me being humble or modest. It's me just saying that in the same way as you feel people came into your life to, you know, accelerate that journey and reconnect you, like you did the same for me and Radi, like,

In a physical way, all of you have given us so much family. We've celebrated so many thanksgiving. We've had you over for Sangha for days and days and weeks and months and years. You've given us so much. I think that's what

I think this book does. I think that's what we'll do for our friendships is that I got the opportunity to build a friendship with you that was based on nothing else, but healing growth and the divine and that kind of relationship just has a different energy. It's really special when there's nothing else. There's nothing else that would have made our paths cross.

Yeah, we don't work together. We don't have, we don't do business together. We don't have the same friends, like, you know, but, but this. Right. I'm so grateful to watch someone do the hardest work. And I'm going, yeah, I need to do it too. And I admire it because I see it from that perspective with you. And I always have that.

You're not trying to take the easy way out. You're not, you're not just looking to fix it with a band aid. You're not just hoping it will go away. You're like, no, I'm going to sit there with it. That is just, I just, that is such an uncomfortable place naturally for 99% of people. Yeah. I mean, all of you because of it. And I always will be. And I'm just, I'm so happy that you decided to put it into writing because

This isn't about clarifying. It isn't about people getting a sense of what really happened. That's not what it's about. It's about how can we sit through that discomfort that we're going through in our life and choose healing and growth, even when it's the hardest thing and the farthest thing away from us.

Listen, if things get cleared up from reading this book, great. But that's not the purpose because I actually don't think you can. You can. Yeah, you can't. It'll just be more stirring up whatever other things, right? And it's really, which is why it's even more important to really be able to have a strong sense of self, right? And not to be looking for external things to be to substitute

what you have to have inside in order to know your place in this world. This place is crazy and should try to make the material space, the material world align in a way for your comfort. That's, it can't start there. It has to start within yourself that how you see

And what you attract to you is in alignment with what is happening here, right? But looking for the world to buoy you up or accept you in a certain manner. Nah. Like I said before, this can just give some little breadcrumbs to help people get to a sense of self-worth that gives them that comfort, no matter what is happening. You know, if you've brought freakin chocolate chip cookies with peanuts in them,

to the school fair, even though kids might have allergies in the school, then wrote you a letter and said, don't bring products with peanuts. And you made them with love. And now the mom group is on your neck.

You can be okay. You can be okay with your victories and you can be okay with the inevitable challenges that life is going to deliver. It's okay either way. You're okay. You're worthy. You're lovable. Peanuts and all.

So, Jada, one of the things that you mentioned was that you went to the Oscars as family, but not as a wife. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you, how do you define the status of your relationship now and what is it like? You know, right now, of course, we've had, it's been an intense two years and we've really been

doing some deep healing together. And that's why I was saying before the idea of how just really disruptive situations can amplify love in a certain manner because it kind of forces you to have to dive a little deeper. That's what we've been doing. We've just been growing together and

See what happens then. See what grows from there, you know, but like I said in the book, it's like we have this beautiful friendship and

we really look at our marriage as being the cornerstone of family. We're both kind of coming up with different definitions of what marriage means for us. We're still figuring all of that out. Yeah, but the beautiful part is that there's been some really deep healing going on. Yeah.