"I was addicted to anxiety" - Susannah Constantine & daughter shed tears over ADHD realisations

ADHD and it's become like a sort of trending euphemism. It does not help because it takes away the fact that it is a real disorder.

She's here today with her daughter. Her ADHD is very external. Her younger sister is more like me and she'll internalize everything. I sort of told Mum and Dad we kind of brushed it off. Sitting down and speaking about it, it was such a relief almost just to have that diagnosis.

I'm not going crazy. If you're not channeling that hyperactivity in a positive direction, it can manifest into anxiety. How does anxiety manifest to you? I wake up full of fear every morning. My brain will find something to be anxious about. You're addicted to the anxiety. I'm addicted to the anxiety. What would you never change? Susanna, your mum. I'm gonna get emotional. Oh my God, I actually have done it.

This episode is dedicated to anyone who has a chaotic handbag but also knows exactly what's in there.

This sponsored ad was agreed to be 90 seconds long, but because I know most of you have ADHD, I negotiated it down to 89 seconds. I challenge you to test your ADHD by seeing if you can sit still for one minute 30 seconds while I tell you about our sponsor, TimoApp. If I can sit down and record take after take of this message for two hours, then I'm sure you can listen to 90 seconds. So here's a short word from our sponsor.

TimoApp is a perfectly tailored app that I use daily, and maybe it's worth you giving it a try to see how it might improve organising your life too. Running a podcast is actually a lot harder than you might think, and juggling all of the moving parts would be near impossible if it weren't for TimoApp. How?

Well, Timo is designed specifically to hack the neurodivergent brain, a brain that might struggle with time-agnosia, object permanence, memory-cognitive load, task initiation, anxiety, or procrastination. All things I'm extremely guilty of too. And how on earth does it help you, Alex?

I hear you scream impatiently at your computer or phone screens. Well, the award winning TMO app is the perfect life hacking tool to help your time management and kick you up the bum when you need it most. If you want to stay ahead of the competition, then the visual planning TMO app is specifically designed to help your structuring, organising, focusing and goal setting.

It has a visual timer providing a tangible and visual representation of time to help users pace themselves so you never miss a deadline ever again. It also has an efficient lock screen reminder service to alert those of you who are very out of sight, out of mind with your chores and afraid you might forget them.

It brilliantly centers all of your tasks in one place across devices, both on a web and mobile apps, to streamline your overflowing schedules and make them much more digestible and a lot less intimidating. And for those who find big tasks too overwhelming to even start, Timo breaks them down into more manageable sub-tasks to get the ball rolling. In fact, this app helps me so much that it actually reminded me to record this message to advertise the app.

Give it a go. Why not? It might just help. Anyway, back to the episode. Susanna Esme, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having us. It's a very special, exciting day in the ADHD Chatter Studios. The first time we've had a mother and daughter combo on. Just to set the dynamic, who's got ADHD?

I think, well not I think, I know, I'm the one who's got ADHD. Maybe, maybe I get it from you, I don't know. But, yeah. You're the, I mean, Esme is the one who's been diagnosed.

OK, it sounds like we've got a lot of ground to cover. I think we have. It's going to be very interesting. And maybe enlightening. I asked all my guests to tell me what item most represents ADHD in their life. So it's me. This one's for you. Your item is under this cloth. I'm going to reveal it. A Rubik's Cube.

We will talk about that later on. But first, question for Susanna to start with. You don't have a formal diagnosis, but when was your first memory of feeling different?

I've always, I don't think I've ever felt different, but I've always felt isolated. I've always felt that I only sort of got myself to rely on. It probably stems from the fact that my mum was bipolar.

and have multiple suicide attempts. And so the consequence of that as a child was waking up every morning and not knowing how she was going to be, whether she was going to be possibly dead, whether she was going to be on a high or low. And so within that moment of waking up in the morning, it's like,

almost like time would stand still. And in that moment, I'd only have myself to be able to go forward with the day because I didn't know if my mother was going to be there. You think being exposed to someone in that position and being fearful of how their day might turn out, you're hyper vigilant to other people's emotions?

Yeah, I think it's definitely made me more empathetic. But also it's like, I kind of choose to look at it in a positive way, because it has enabled me to live in the present completely, because that's all I ever had as a child was that moment, which was the unknowing. But it's also, it's also

give me a lack of responsibility and lack of accountability because I never ever look back and I never really look forward because I don't want to have that feeling of responsibility. So on the one hand, yes, I felt isolated, but that's my normal way of thinking. So I hate being tied down by anything.

And as me, when was your first memory of feeling different? And as a part two to that question, when was the first time you realized your mum might be different to other mums?

Probably it would be at school, I reckon. And maybe around my siblings as well, because obviously CC up my own sister's been diagnosed, but I guess mine is very sort of, it's very internal, but it's also very external. It can be quite obvious. So I guess I'm always sort of bloody all over the place. And when I'm at home, I can be my true self. So I think even then on the exterior, it's even more

Was it present like obvious? So yeah, one at home. But then obviously in school situations like in class, you know, being put on like report cards and like, I couldn't understand why I used to work so, so hard. This is so frustrating. Worked like, I'm not going to say a bad word, but worked really, really hard. And then I'd always seem to like not get the good grades. And like, I just never understood why like, what was the other question? Do you have any memories of

realizations or thinking that your mum was different to other mothers? Only that you're a very cool mum, in my opinion. I don't think you were different, I just think.

I don't know if I'm allowed to speak about your alcoholism as well. Maybe that obviously had an impact. But I never judged you against other mums or thought that you were different. So I don't think I have a definitive answer to that question that annoyingly. I think that's quite interesting because it's like you say, as me says,

where it presents, her ADHD presents herself is very external and she can be fucking annoying. You know, it's like the sea ferret running around this crazy ferret. It's like, oh my God. Whereas Cece, her younger sister, is more like me and she'll internalize everything. So even though, you know, I was drinking alcoholically for a lot of Esme's childhood, I was able to hide that. I was highly functioning.

whilst I was drinking. So the fact that you say you didn't notice anything means I was a successful alcoholic. I'm bloody well-knew about it. So it's interesting you say that. The alcoholism. How bad did that get? Was there a rock bottom moment there for you? There was a rock bottom moment. I mean, like I said, I was high functioning at the same time. But because of that, it was a very

sort of it took a lot of energy to try and appear that everything was okay, especially for my children. I was emotionally addicted and then it became a habit. But my, you know, I drink maybe a bottle every single night without fail. And if we've been to a party or something, I'd just drink and drink and drink until almost blackout. And even if I felt really hung over the next day, I'd still drink that evening.

but my rock bottom came when.

I drank her, you know, we were all, everyone was drinking and we had our Australian cousins there. You know, Australians have a great reputation of partying and having a fantastic time. And I wasn't drinking anymore, but because my sponge, my alcohol sponge was so kind of saturated. I lacked out, fell over on concrete, broke two transverse processes in my back and pissed myself in front of... I remember that.

I don't think it was my husband's brother and him saw it. I'm the therapist. That was my rock bottom. Yeah, it was a painful one. You know, it was emotionally, physically, and the shame and the guilt and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that was when I realized I needed help. What do you think it is that keeps you sober now?

AA, you know, AA. And, you know, when I started, when I made the decision that I had to stop drinking, initially I did it for my family because I thought I can't put, you know, my children and my husband through this anymore. But then I got to realize that it was something I had to do for myself because there's that saying, it's like, you know, if you're in an airplane,

As students will say, take down the oxygen mask and put it on yourself first and then you can help others. And it's the same with alcohol. So if I was going to be any used, you know, if I really love my family, which I do, obviously, and I was going to be there for them, then I had to stop drinking. I had to help myself first. Addiction alcoholism comes up time and time again in this podcast. And I first heard those four letters, ADHD and an AA meeting.

And we see often there's a genetic component at play here. Is it on your mind to be aware of the behavior in your daughters?

Yeah, it is. Well, I've had that conversation with all my children and just saying, look, alcoholism is a genetic disorder. It's a mental disorder. It's drinking too much as a symptom. And you might have the same gene and just be aware. And if you're worried, I've been through it. I've got the metal come to me.

Esby, when did you get diagnosed with ADHD? I think, gosh, I think it was just when I started school. When did I start school? No, it's when you left school. Was it your A-levels? Just before you or GCSE? I haven't just before my A-levels, actually, I think. And I remember it so vividly because I had to go, I basically just took myself, and this is nothing again. No, it's true. It's anyone and our family, but say.

I sort of told mum and dad and blah blah and they're like yeah they kind of brushed it off like maybe as you were back then because you know it wasn't discussed and no one really thought it was a thing. So I was like okay fine like I wasn't getting anywhere with them so I basically cooled up the side kite what your doctor I think I was like right I'm taking this.

But then I'm going to call them up. And they're basically like within the first 10 minutes, they sort of they kind of knew. And I was like, OK, so I've got a potential diagnosis. And then I need to go see a psychiatrist who then confirmed it. And I remember I didn't want to go on my own by myself. I was so scared. I was so anxious and so nervous that I was going to have this huge thing, or I could have something else. So my cousin Arthur came with me, which was really sweet. And I remember going in and

Sitting down and speaking about it and it was such a relief almost just to have that diagnosis. I'm not going crazy. I'm not someone who has some problem with my brain and I can't concentrate and I can't be in spaces and things like that and getting really assimilated like it is a thing and it's not just me thinking, oh my gosh, there's something wrong with you basically. So that was a huge relief but I think

Because I was quite young, what came next was what do I do now? Because there is that period between when you are diagnosed and then you take meds, you have therapy, you have CB, is it CBT? There are so many different routes and I think that the interim part is

very difficult because you're sort of treading water, like what do I go for? It is trial and error. I've tried, I started on Ritalin, then I went to Elvance, now I'm fixer because of the shortage, so I've tried it all basically, but yeah, that was when, but I really went on a tangent now, but that's really close. No, it's so, it's, yeah, yeah. So, Santa, when Esme got diagnosed, what was your

What did you think about ADHD sort of before that moment? Not very much, to be honest. Like, as me said, you know, it was obviously I was worried for her emotionally and the fact that she was upset. But the fact that she might have disorder of some kind, like, as we said, you know, I brushed it aside. It was like, you know,

It doesn't matter kind of thing. And I know she knew she'd struggled at school. And then when she told me, like, Esme, it was a bit of a relief. But if I'm really honest, it was a relief because it wasn't going to have to be my responsibility.

to deal with it. There were people, experts there, who could help her, far better than I could. And which then, as a parent, I think it allows me to be the safety net, as opposed to the diagnostic. So it's kind of very compartmentalised.

And that's how I say it. And I didn't think, oh my God, no, she's got ADHD. It was just like, okay, she's got ADHD. It explains a lot. That's why she's so creative. That's why I just thought of all the good things about as me more than the negative things and also relief for her rather than for myself.

But it is good to have that degree of separation in terms of how you were saying about, you know, you're the emotional support. Whereas rather than being the diagnostic or because obviously like there are experts who like do not that you don't know what you're talking about. But I wouldn't go to my psychiatrist who subscribes in medication and then make sure I'm in check and stuff. I wouldn't go to her and start crying about X, Y and Z. Like you're very good in that respect about dealing with it. Then obviously I have a therapist who's

just that next level. She's like, knows me down to a tee and don't know what honestly what I would do without her. But I like that degree of separation because, you know, I think we both, I think, you know, you're the kind of

The psychiatric help you have is as important as the maternal support. And it's good, like you say, it is good having that separation between the two. What do you think your experience with ADHD has been like as you've grown with it? How do you think it shows up in your life?

Honestly, I think it's just been chaos to be completely honest. Like, yes, there are honestly so many positives about ADHD. I can go for the negatives and the positives. The positives are, you know, I can be extremely creative. When I'm in something that I love and I'm passionate about, I can like work for hours. I can put my heart and soul and everything into it and work my ass off basically.

And things like that. But again, on the contrary, if I'm in talking like work, if I'm in a space where I'm, you know, I'm not, it's not my thing or it's not stimulating enough, then I find obviously very hard to feel like motivated and it's not good for self esteem. And I just, I feel like I'm, I'm not a kind of

not, I don't know how to put it, I feel very like low in myself because I'm not working to like my full potential kind of thing. But again, there are, I think when I say chaos, I just mean, as I've gone from like school to uni to actual like a real life, there are three completely different stages of your life and you have to

Learn how to deal with ADHD in those three different bits, and they're so different. School routine, it's a lot easier to deal with. You need less so because you're having to start making your own choices. You actually have to turn up to things, but you're not told to. You have to wake up a morning and remember to eat food.

go to the shops and actually like pick out things in the shops. And I mean, I bloody hate going to the shops. I cannot for the life for me to just putting a list goes too hard. And then in life, like just feeling like good enough, like when you're trying to find a job and it's just people just think I'm being lazy. But I there's some things that I asked to do and I just can't do them. Like it will take me three hours to get out of bed sometimes.

Not because I'm lazy or depressed, it's just, I just can't do it. And that's just, it's chaos. It's like, I'm all over the place. We see it time and time again, people with ADHD, they know they're capable of doing stuff, but because of this overwhelm, anxiety, overstimulation, they are often just paralyzed, they're unable to take any action. So annoying. Shame. Do you feel any shame and guilt over your ADHD?

Yeah, 100%. I feel shame and guilt, definitely. Guilty because I know what I meant. I should be doing. And I put so much pressure on myself, maybe for the things I should be doing, like, oh, I should be going out and doing a job. It should be whatever. And like that.

does make me feel guilty. And I'm like, oh, I also feel guilty because my parents have brought me up in such, you know, they've, I mean, I've gone to school, I've been very, you know, privileged in that sense. So I feel like I, yes, I owe it to myself, but I also feel so bad that I'm letting people down. And I constantly feel like I'm going to let people down, you know? And I think that is another big thing with ADHD is it's not like when you're dependent on other people,

It's it's if if someone's depending on me to do something it's often easier to do but I feel like it's a lot easier to let people down. I don't know if that makes any sense but.

Yeah, it is. There's a lot of, you know, I feel a bit guilty at all of the time. Yeah. Well, accountability piece is very relatable. I think when you have a new, when someone is counting on you, that does motivate often you to sort of give into action and do the task. How do you feel, Susanna, when you see Esme in distress over something that's not necessarily her fault? Well, you know, you're never, you're never happier than your unhappiest child. So, you know, it's,

I mean, I think probably out of all my children that as an eye are the most similar. So there is that kind of we know we can fight like hell, but also I very much feel what she's feeling. And I think vice versa. You're very, she's very tuned in. She just, I don't have to say anything. She knows exactly.

why I'm being a bitch, and then we'll come back and make it even worse. But it's really hard. It's because I understand that she is powerless, that I can't help, that no one can help. And I can imagine for you how frustrating that is. And it's difficult to

See your child feel that she's letting other people down, especially as you know, you're 23 years old. It's young to have those feelings of the need for accountability and putting pressure on yourself. It's like surely that comes much later in life, but I think with ADHD,

You have that a lot earlier. You have to deal with that a lot earlier. You both have a clash over the meaning of ADHD. We've never really discussed it. I think that's a problem in itself. We've never really discussed it. We've never ever talked about it. I think

Yeah, we've never clashed over it. We've never really discussed it because I think, well, I don't know, maybe this is what you think, but it's kind of, you just allow me to just be me. Like it's not. We never, I don't feel the need to like speak about it because like it is just the way it is. And like, it's just all about learning from it, I suppose. Yeah. And it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of the, you know,

The AA Pro, don't worry about the things you can't change. There's nothing that's going to prevent you from being ADHD. There's loads of things you can do to support yourself. So I think our conversations have been more around that.

you know, it's how, how you can help yourself and having, you know, providing empathy and understanding. Um, but also how you can, you're also very supportive. In fact, like how you can excel with ADHD because it's something that you can really utilize to your advantage, not just, you know, be, but also a bit of that. I think it's, you know, being really honest now, I, I, I, I'm someone who,

likes everything to be stable around me. And I don't like to rock the boat. And it's kind of almost like toxic positivity. And so maybe I don't want to talk about it because I'm scared to go there. You know, I know enough already. I know when you're suffering and maybe, yeah, maybe we should have a deeper conversation about it. But then I also think maybe we don't because

So like the way I sit in sort of outside of what in the world is it's maybe it's different now, but it's not taking that seriously. Like as I've grown up, I just don't, people have never taken it seriously. And that's not a poor me, poor me. Like I don't, sometimes I would just like, you're like, oh, you're just so ADHD. And they only see it as like someone being really crazy or out there and laughing. And it does come across as almost a joke.

I probably don't help, because I probably do play up to it, like I love all that attention. But there's so much to it, which I think is also just a problem, like you need to give me some nitpick about actually what it is and what comes with it, not just, you're so over the top, you're an issue, that's like so funny. And I think I'm only beginning, I don't think I've taken it that seriously, if I'm, you know, I think I'm the more I learn about it.

The more, and it's, you know, I'm not going out to research it and find out it's just happening, you know, it's evolving. My knowledge, you know, becoming here and talking to you, Alex, and doing this podcast is, I'm going to come away and having learnt so much from you and from my own daughter. And I haven't taken it seriously, but it is, it's a tough thing to live with, you know, and,

Also, I'm sorry, can I cut you off before I forget? I forget about it. What I think is the negatives of it are taking more seriously than the positives. So if I'm positive about it, I mean, doing my art, doing my whatever, I'm not even going to think twice about how my ADHD is and people just, you know, they could see me being super happy. And then so it's not, yeah, the positives aren't really taken seriously because

You're positive, I guess, but all the negatives are more taken seriously, like being emotional, finding things really difficult. And I feel like people pay more attention to that, which is probably good, but it's also good to talk about the positives because you can really like make things out of your ADHD, not just like sit and only make something out of the sad parts. I don't know if that made sense, but I just had to get out. It's good.

No, I agree. I think ADHD can be very positive. But is that support and awareness and then trying to manage and mitigate the struggles? I think it can be creativity and pattern recognition and problem solving and being great in a crisis and all of these things. But the danger is, is you'll see someone who is in a bit of a hole at the moment and they'll see that and they'll go, Oh, no, I've got the shit version.

And it will just compound whatever scenario they're in. I think that support and awareness and getting managing the drawbacks of it is so important. But once that's out the way and that sort of cloud is lifted, then it is that being calm in a crisis, resilience, almost impulsivity, I think has a bit of a bad reputation. But I think it can be such a strength. It's why so many people with ADHD just start businesses.

You might not always stick it in. But you start enough, one will work. You're so right, great in a crisis. I never equated that to ADHD. It's like, give me a crisis, give me a fucking crisis, and I will make sure it's all OK. I am so good in a crisis.

And you are too. If there's a crisis, if someone is having a bad time, if you are so good in a crisis, I've never thought of that. But dopamine. And the resilience too. Yeah, the dopamine. Jumping to problem solving. So, yeah, it's so true. God, that's really, that's so... The employees with ADHD is a massive strength in a crisis, in a business, when everything's, you know, shit's hitting the fan, everyone's running around panicking. The ADHD employee is the one navigating the path to success and the solution. Yeah. Yeah.

There is a drawback to this, though, isn't there? Because you can get this racing mind, and if managed and channeled in the right way, you'd get creativity. You get the pattern recognition. You get the calm in a crisis and being able to zoom out and see patterns where other people see chaos. But if you're not channeling that hyperactivity in a positive direction, it can manifest into anxiety.

Yeah. And yeah, I mean, that sounds like you're going to preempt the next question. I was going to ask, how does anxiety manifest in both of you? And I suppose as a result of that question, how does it feel when you see the other one of you going through an anxious episode? Anxiety is, for me, my natural state. And so I was actually just saying this to someone earlier.

So I wake up in the morning and I wake up full of fear every morning. And that was hugely exacerbated when I was drinking. But I still have it. And now I look at it as a haunting. So I know as soon as I get up, it's going to go. So I've just been haunted by anxiety. But then my brain will go, OK, I'm feeling anxious. What am I feeling anxious about? And then I think, OK, what am I feeling? There's nothing to be anxious about.

And then my brain will find something to be anxious about. You're addicted to the anxiety. I'm addicted to the anxiety. And then with you, if I may be so bold and I might be wrong. No, that's good. Well, I know when you're anxious, you get angry and you become a bit of a bitch.

And I then, but I know that speak for yourself, that is your fear coming out. I've learnt to recognise that when you're like that, it's because you're fearful of something. Sorry, what was your question? I can't remember. Well, the original question was, how anxiety manifests in you? Your mum's just suggested when you get anxious to turn to a bit of a bitch.

I think that's quite harsh, really. I thought you were so back to that. Well, I think, yeah, it's probably somewhat true, only to you, but when I get anxious, I do.

I do internalize it and then I play up to being okay the whole time because everyone, all my friends, it's actually quite tiring, know me, it's like being always loud and energetic and then when I'm anxious, I internalize it for such a long period of time that it's a vicious cycle, it's like I'm on top, I'm on top and then

I can't internalize it anymore that I just crash. And then I won't, that's when I get into my big ruts of like, I won't want to socialize. I don't want to see anyone. I only want to be on my own. And it's like two different, two different extremes. I'm either up here or I'm down there. And I think that's obviously not a good thing, but that's, I think how it manifests.

Outwardly, but I mean, obviously I get anxiety about really small things and not being able to control things and not being able to, you know, do things properly. It's just like, sometimes it's just hit after hit. And then, well, okay, I'm just not going to bother anymore. Get into bed.

And Susanna, the anxiety you've mentioned. Were there any triggers that exacerbated it after you? I think, again, Alex is going back to my childhood and not knowing each day how my mum was going to be. It must be from that, because it's just a feeling. There's nothing. Yes, there are times when I have reason to worry or be concerned.

Generally, it's it's nothing and it's just this feeling and I think you're right. I mean, I'm addicted to feeling anxious. Well, that's your voice. Yeah, and that kind of motivates me. Like I said, I use it as a motivator, you know, to get be more productive. I mean, you've mentioned alcoholism. Was that a cure for the anxiety? I think no.

It wasn't a cure for the anxiety. I don't think I drank all my feelings so much. But I think I drank because I'd find life so boring. And it was always more fun when I was drinking. So the days with no disrespect to you or my children, but it can be monotonous being a mother.

It's, you know, I'm always an alcoholic. I was born an alcoholic. My mum was an alcoholic. My grandmother was an alcoholic. But for me, I could be in any situation, talking to any person. And if I had a drink, everything was so much more fun. And I think, and that possibly is related to ADHD. I don't know. I kind of get that. I mean, for me, it's more. I will.

I don't know why. What was I saying? I'm there about drinking high. I like more binge drink because I went drinking the week really because I know how it will affect me. But then when I go out drinking, I just always want to be like, you know, always up. And then for me, like, again, I don't drink all my feelings. I don't necessarily have a problem, but.

If I have one drink and I drink so fast and I carry on drinking, because then I won't have to think about having control of what I'm doing next. Because if I'm having one point, I'll be like, what guys, what are we doing next? I have to know what I'm doing next.

Just because if then they go, no, we're going to go home. And I know that I'll have to face, I'll be sober enough that I'll have to face the actual reality of like getting into bed and then thinking about things and my mind racing the whole time. And whereas if I'm so pissed, I can go to bed and I'm asleep and my mind doesn't wander at night. It's just freedom from your thinking. Yeah, it's just like, I don't have to think about anything. So maybe I do a problem.

That anxiety, Susanna. How did that manifest? And how did you deal with that when you stepped into the world of TV, which I imagine is an arena that you put yourself in, which was very lots of eyes on you, very judgmental and exposure to the press. How did anxiety show up then? I wasn't anxious about that at all. You got thick skin?

I think having that kind of level of success later, I was in my early 30s, was a huge benefit. But also, for me, it was a job. And I never thought really about how people saw me. But then that was at the time. But looking back, I did find it difficult because it wasn't my natural

environment and my natural environment is, you know,

in mud under a stone. That's where I'm happiest. I'm quite an introvert. And so I think maybe that's why I'm drinking exacerbated because I was having to be Susanna and Susanna and Trini when actually I'm not fucking Susanna. I'm not Susanna who's on TV. I'm Susanna who wants to be, you know, in the countryside looking like shit, not being free. So,

I think I spent 15 years performing, actually, which was exhausting, and I've only realised I wrote a book, sort of memoir, and I came to that realisation that having had a quite nice-related childhood,

I'm being very happy in nature and with animals and you know, relying on that. I've done a full circle and come back to being, wanting to be a home bird in your calm, in my calm, protect your peace and with, you know, my family and the friends who get it and who I've had for a long time. We made a really successful career out of masking.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, she's probably Oscar winning actress here, you know, and the Oscar goes to that she's played for 15 years. Yeah, but I think I'm sure probably alcohol helped that. How wide is the gap between the character and yourself? Yeah, the TV Susanna is

I think the perceived TV, Susanna, is very different from the real Susanna. Just cut all that out. Just like an extra, really. Yeah, maybe. But you did it well. Yeah. I know, I did it well. And it's given me a life, you know, it's given all of us a life that's where I can be quieter. And I love that. That's true. I love writing because it affords me the perfect excuse not to see other people.

That's Steve. When you watch back your mum on Telly, as in character, if you notice the gap.

I think I did notice the difference, to be fair, of like your mum and then this more glamorous, like, sort of, I don't know, you're very outspoken. I mean, I thought it was so cool, obviously, but I honestly, I hadn't really watched it. I think I was probably at a good age when you did it, because I didn't think anything of it. I don't think any of you, kids kind of cared less. It's like, yeah, you know, you really wasn't, you weren't impressed by it. It was just like, mum's going off to work.

Yeah, and literally was work. I didn't think anything of it. And also, yeah, I think we were of an age where we were just, you know, at home and, you know, just chilling with each other. And I think I wasn't old enough to understand what exactly you were doing and how iconic you actually were. Only now do I realize how iconic you are, like, even just having trillions of years out on a bloody, like, newspaper, that's all the context you need. And everyone knows who you are. And it's like,

Wow, you've done something there. Neither of you are familiar with the term RSD. It stands for rejection sensitivity dysphoria. I don't think I've heard of it. How do you respond to criticism as me? What are you saying, Alex? Are you criticizing me? I'm kidding.

Yeah, not well. No, not well. I either do a lot of yappy-app-a-back, like, what? Sorry. And I think I take it very personally. I mean, especially from people who are close to me. If I hear someone sort of say something and, like, job.

I mean, I'll be a bit down about it, but I'll probably get upset, but I'm not. I wouldn't take it as personally as when like you or dad gave you some home truth. So I'd be like, oh no, then you become like Vicki Pollard. I was like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, yeah, no, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah,

with the yeah, but no, but, but then it always sinks in. No, but, and then you cut, it sinks in. It just takes a bit of time. Or I go and just, and then you come out of my room and, um, not to my room, I sound like such a child, but where I go, if you've annoyed me, I'll go and speak to my friends about it. And I'll be like, I believe what mum's just done. And then I read back, I'm like, God, I sound like such a brat. I just get over it. But probably not well at all. But good. I, I, I learned from it eventually.

Susanna, I know it's a broad question. You must have been exposed to a fair bit of criticism over your career. How does it affect you? I remember the worst criticism that Trini and I got was this article came out in The Times, and they did that kind of financial times thing in the life and whatever it is section when they have the

the portrait, the drawn portrait of someone. And they did that and it wasn't an interview, it was just a critique on us. And the final sentence was the next time these two see themselves on television has to be to witness their own hanging.

Okay. And we had these friends staying and I was literally sobbing out loud and I don't cry. I'm never ever, I wish I did cry more. I do not cry. I'm sobbing and I took that. I was so upset by that.

I don't really mind that kind of if people don't know me, I don't mind they can criticize all they want but if it's people who I love people who I respect who criticize me. I get very upset but then.

I'll listen and try and do something about it. Because you know, like, why get upset probably in the same problem with you as you do know there's an element of truth there. And that's why it's so like hard to take. Because you're like, right, we're not going to admit it. Exactly. It's probably based in truth, isn't it? You know, there's some merit to it that it really comes deep. Yeah. How do you describe that feeling? You mentioned sadness, who is the rage?

Yeah, I'm trying to think when I get criticized. Yeah, to be honest, I go from not zero to 100 in rage, but I can feel myself getting so wound up and upset about it. And it can be small things that...

So relevant, but I left my laptop on the train on the way to going away with my family, or with you, and Joe and my brother kept probing me about being so disorganized and all this stuff and he was probing a word. Yeah. Okay. Well, he kept calling me and calling me about it. And I was like,

I was just like, I brush off at first and I just started, I was welling up when I sort of, I couldn't deal with it and I sort of crying because I was like, that's just so mean. Like, I know I'm disorganized, but you don't have to, you know, so I think it's either.

It's just a lot of emotion, I think. Whether it's rage or like being sad, I just feel it really like it just comes out and I can't often control it. I've got better at that, like understanding it. But I think it's, I can't remember what R.D. thing he is, but it is rejection. Yeah. If someone criticized me, I don't, it's like that thing of, you know, Esme's father, my beloved husband, he's very,

Not critical, but he will critique, you know, which is hugely valuable. But often I will take it as, okay, you're not, let's say I'm holding a bottle of water and he'll go, you're holding that in a weird way. And I will, I'll take it as... That's an attack. You hate me, you think I'm useless, you think there's no point of having someone like you on this earth and all he's done is talk about the way I'm holding a bottle.

So I guess that's... No, it being larger herself. That is... No, I know, I'm not saying... No, he can't be harsh, but that is, if it's someone you love and they criticize you, you take it as your whole being, not just the one thing that they may be focused on.

You've described it perfectly in that response to a slight comment. Because so many people with ADHD, we've been exposed to so many micro-criticisms and corrections through our early years. We've worked so hard to try and be perfect and mask all of those imperfections. So then when someone mentions one and we're an adult,

You get angry or sad because you know that they've seen through the mask. I can manifest in rage or sadness because it's all of your hard work in that moment gone to waste. I've never thought about it. If that's made me feel quite emotional, it's like, yeah, because someone understands you. That's so true.

Yeah, I think also I don't want to say anything bad about dad because dad's best out in the world, but he obviously doesn't really get it. And so he often can get a bit personal and like, you know, do you think Alex men generally, if they're not ADHD, do you think they find it harder to understand than women who do who? So let's say there's a mother and a father with an ADHD child.

Does the father find it harder to deal with, do you think, generally, or is it? You know, it can do. I think there's... I feel recently the messaging or the science is...

dictated that only men can have ADHD. You think of ADHD and you think that the women and girls are having a much harder time because the vast majority of them don't present in the stereotypical manifestation of what a lot of people particularly

older men, I think, ADHD years. So they go to them saying, I've got this diagnosis. And because they're not hyperactive, running around the house, throwing toys around, they don't necessarily get taken seriously. But I think there has to be a willingness to learn and update 100% that so many people have towards those four letters. I just think, generally, people don't take it seriously enough.

But at the same time, on the other side, you've got ADHD and it's become like a sort of trending euphemism that, you know, it's almost become like a sort of TikTok trend or something where your ADHD, so that doesn't help. It does not help because it takes away the fact that it is a real disorder that does affect people and can affect people in a very, very negative way as well as being a positive.

Yeah, I think ADHD is going through a weird phase where it's potentially getting a bit overexposed. Yeah. I think everyone has ADHD in terms of everyone does occasionally forget their car keys. Everyone does occasionally sign out of conversation. Everyone does occasionally get to text their friend back. But it's that a neurotypical person will go through that as like waves. Yeah. With that actual ADHD that that high will be like the tip of Everest. Yeah.

and the low will be the Dead Sea in Israel, the lowest point on earth. It's that extreme swing between the highs and the lows and the continuousness of that swing, which separates it. And because of that, it's that the comorbidities of ADHD, not everyone has crippling anxiety, not everyone is

Unfortunately, fortunately, four times more likely to have an attempt on their own life. That's the reality of ADHD, unfortunately. So it does really wind me up when you hear ignorant people say everyone has ADHD. It's very annoying. It is very annoying. But then you're just like, I just

I mean, it's good. There's so much like talking about it because it's only going to educate people. But when people are spoken about in the right way, and I think especially for the young, your generation, I mean, for a part, you know, I haven't seen anyone who

is talking about it from their own personal experience and talking about it in a responsible way. Someone needs to kind of do that. You ought to kind of fly the flag for... Yeah, well, it has to be done. Get off your arse and do it and stop crassinating basically. That's just...

We're halfway through the episode now, and I know what you're all thinking. Where the hell is the midway sponsor we've all been patiently waiting for, Alex? Well, thank you for reminding me. A word from our sponsor Stasis.

I talk to a lot of my fellow ADHD friends that take the prescribed stimulants like Adderall or Vivance, and they always say the same thing, that the afternoon energy crashes, sleep interruptions and irritability these meds cause can really deter them from enjoying the benefits that these stimulants provide. So much so, that it makes them question taking them all together.

A close entrepreneurial friend of mine even came off meds entirely because he was literally and figuratively tired from the negative effects associated with these stimulants, until I urged him to try stasis, which helped him in his own words, correct his natural chemical balance, in turn helping with deeper sleep, even out his energy levels and promoting a calmer mood.

Well I'm happy to let you know that with stasis you don't have to choose any more. Stasis is the first of its kind supplement that you take with your stimulant. It contains naturally derived vitamins, minerals, adaptogens and antioxidants that level out the less desirable effects of stimulants. So you can take it without suffering from the downsides.

It's been precision formulated to target the root causes of those downsides by regulating dopamine levels, warding off cortisol spikes, and targeting oxidative stress, all with ingredients that come straight from nature. Less brain fog, less jitters increased focus, more sustained energy throughout the day, and less stress. If you take stimulants, why wouldn't you boost your brain health with stasis?

ADHD chatter listeners can get 20% off with the link in the description. Try it for yourself. And maybe I'm biased, but there is one other proven way to relieve stress. And that's by carrying on watching the episode. I want to talk about impulsivity. Yeah. But first I want to focus back on the Rubik's Cube. Yeah. Your ADHD item. Let's talk about that. Why does that represent ADHD for you? Well, for me, it's more

It was always an object that I fiddled with, and that I fiddle with. I can do it. Please don't make me do it, because it takes me quite a long time. So it's always been something that I can focus on for a long time, because it's got all the colors and everything. But on a more

like metaphorical standing point, it's, look at it, it's like just a jumble of everything. And very rarely, it takes a long time for the colours all to be aligned. And it's rare that that can happen quickly. So for me, it was like, I can spend hours doing that. And I still don't remember the algorithm to do it, but I guess once you do remember it, it's the algorithm to get it done. It's so easy to get your colours

like correct. So yeah, I think that's why it's just that represents my brain. Yeah. And maybe when also I take my medication.

My brain is pretty much almost solved. It's not completely, but you know, it's like, I think it was a good representation of like crazy, takes a long time to figure things out, literally like a puzzle, but then we get there and it does make things feel serene. Zen, which is very rare, but you know, that's why I think.

That's actually an incredible analogy. Thank you. I had my suspicions that it was going that way, because as soon as I saw it, I was like, that's chaotic. Yeah. It was bits everywhere, scattered, but in moments, rare moments, it's all aligned. Yeah. Everything's focused, everything works. No, it's brilliant. Thank you.

I want to do the ADHD agony aren't section, which is a little segment. I call it the washing machine of ways because my ADHD item is a washing machine because I always leave my laundry in the machine. That would smell so bad. That's the only reason I don't. Yeah, the dumps now.

I'll have to say, though, I've been using the TMO app, which is the sponsor. And ever since then, it's getting a bit better. So, yeah, every week, I asked my Instagram community to send in their woes, ADHD woes, and it goes in the washing machine of woes. And I read it to my guest, and we see if there's some wisdom chips. So this week... That's such a good idea. I love the washing machine, that's funny. It's about the size of the learning where you live, isn't it?

Right this week in the washing machine of ways i witness my daughter being different around her classmates she's thirteen when she's with them she's a totally different person but she's amazing just the way she is do you think it's healthy to mask in this way is she masking. I mean is it my is that i if that was my my daughter. Let's say it was as me.

13, I probably wouldn't know if I was masking on. Yeah, I probably wouldn't notice, to be honest. But I think that, I think children generally are different when they're with their friends because you've got that sort of a bit of peer pressure to maybe be a bit more like them to fit in. And then when, like you were saying earlier as me, when you're at home, you can be your true self. You feel safe to be your true self.

So I would say it's totally normal and she's a very lucky mum to have such an amazing daughter. Very nice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, there's so many variables, isn't there? Yeah. And she's masking at school. She's masking at home, maybe the parents. But the fact is that

W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-

You mentioned earlier, your mum's got a thick skin. Yeah. How did you deal with that press criticism? Because with ADHD myself, having something that's out of my control would for me be literal hell. How did you deal with being exposed to being not in control of what the press wrote about you? Maybe you have a different memory than I do. I don't remember so much criticism.

I think, again, it was it was being older and knowing when you know who you are and you know who your friends are. And there's nothing or I could do to change it. So there was no point in really worrying about it. So, you know, you just sort of keep your side of the street clean as long as you continue doing that, then whatever everyone else thought was none of my business.

So you were so successful, you're probably like, does it really matter? Well, no, it was. I mean, it's like when I did strictly, and which was a real low point in my life, because I was so shockingly bad at the humiliation. But when I was put with Anton,

The, the pouring of hate, not hate, but of criticism, like poor Anton. It's so mean with the old fat lump again. And, um, and I would just write back. It was like on the BBC Instagram. I wrote back as well. And I would write back. I was like, don't you dare be so mean to my mom. Like, I'll just write back and just say,

You're so right. I really feel sorry that Anton's been put with me. So generally, the criticism is correct. That birds well. And Esme, how do you own your ADHD? Do you wear it like a badge of honour? Yeah. I'm super. I love having it. I don't think it's

Yeah, I'm proud. I'm really proud to have ADHD, and I would love for other people to feel the same, and not feel they can't speak about it, or I don't know. Yeah, I'm really proud to have it, even though it gets me down, and it's a huge struggle, but I think, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't change it, but that way. Obviously, you know, you're mum far better than most. Do you think Susanna would get a diagnosis if she went for an assessment of ADHD?

Probably. But I'm not sure because, again, what I don't understand is how the difference between it and manifesting in old people and then young. So do you say old people? Sorry. Sorry, like, middle. I think there's, I think it's like a weird timeline and it can change. I mean, the foundations are probably all there. So I think

Yeah, you probably do in some respect. I mean, I spoke to this journalist. I don't know if you should have her on if you haven't had her on yet. She's called Kate Horn. And she's a filmmaker. She won two Emmy Awards, I think. She's British and she has ADHD. And she wrote an amazing piece in The Telegraph magazine about it. And the way she described her ADHD was like having a Ferrari brain with bicycle brakes, which was so brilliant. And I used that phrase and taken it as my own, like I came up with it myself.

Yeah, but she... I met with her about something different and we hadn't even raised the point of ADHD. It was spoken about and she said, like, so ADHD.

And she was also saying, sorry, this is going off. That phrase is so annoying. But that something like 60% of women, 60% of women who are in prison have ADHD. The stats around the justice system and prisons are outrageous. It's a different conversation. Yeah. It essentially is 25%. But the people that work in the prisons think it's as high as 85%. But that's a whole other. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you've got ADHD?

I don't know. I think when it suits me, I probably have got it. But yeah, I think that I can be incredibly frustrating to be around, especially for someone who has an organized, balanced brain and emotional profile. I think I can be very frustrating. I think it's possible, but at the same time,

I think that, you know, it's like your sister Jess and I were talking a bit earlier. It's like, you know, if you're 60, I've managed this for this long. I think I've, I don't need an ADHD diagnosis. I'm learning the tools on behalf of my daughters. And hopefully I can apply those to myself.

What do you think helped you navigate through life without confronting the fact that you might have ADHD? And what do you think masked it so well? Ignorance, probably. Not knowing. I mean, ADHD has only become a thing for me since Esme was diagnosed, whatever it was, six years ago.

So, you know, what you don't know, you don't worry about. And so I really, I think ignorance helped me. You've worked for years in fashion. Sort of, yeah. Making other women feel good about themselves. What has this experience over the years taught you about the self-esteem problems within women?

a huge amount, a huge amount that how women, if a woman says they have

high self-esteem and they regard themselves in a completely respect themselves, but they have no low points in their self-esteem. They are lying. I really believe that women suffer terribly, whether it's inflicted onto them themselves or by other people.

And I do believe that, I mean, I got so much out of that helping women through dressing them. And for me, and also just talking, being, you know, being an ear for women to talk to and to have someone actually focus on them for maybe the first time in years. Because women often put themselves at the bottom of the list, especially if they have children.

And some of the things that you said today and some of the things that Esme have said have really struck core because a little bit has thought, oh, I've been noticed in some way. So I think women do naturally have low self-esteem.

dressing can really affect your mood. So if I, you know, have a wake up and I'm not feeling great or, you know, I feel the kind of black dog looming, I will dress like I'm going to a meeting, even if I'm, you know, sitting at my kitchen table, writing for the whole day. And that has a big impact. And I feel very proud that we helped a lot of women, so many women with their self-esteem. And I really hope it starts, you know, and stayed with them.

I remember watching a documentary about bipolar that Stephen Fry hosted, he said it wasn't so much that he wanted to end his own life, rather that he would hope something happened to him to end it all, something taking the power out of his hands. You've said something similar about hoping a lorry would end the feelings of anxiety.

Having been through it and having seen having these thoughts, do you know what separates cases like yours from people who actually do do something about it in ending a temporary problem with a permanent solution? That's such a big question. And yes, I did feel that when I was actively drinking, you know, I want to

I can't, you know, it was like not be responsible for ending my life. And like Stephen Fry has said, you know, for someone else to do it for me, but I would never have gone through with it. And I think I don't know. But if someone does take that, I hope I'm answering the question in the right way. But when someone does go through with it, I personally believe that it's kind of like a moment of madness. It's just this sort of flash and it can happen to

you know, not to anyone, but I think it's, you know, I've known a lot of people who have done that, you know, have killed themselves. And I think it is a moment of madness. And, but I think people do have quote unquote suicidal thoughts. And it takes a lot to be in a lot of pain to actually go through with it and do it yourself, I imagine.

Esme, how does it feel hearing your mum talk about such topics and feeling such pain? Yeah, well, very upsetting. Like, you know, I probably know you'd obviously never do it, but even to like have those thoughts is, you know, you have to be in a place like where you're obviously extremely, you know, upset and down. I'm probably using the wrong words here, but yeah, obviously I never

The thought, you know, things would have been that bad and I guess it's so subjective to people about what causes their pain and like, you can be so fine on the exterior. And obviously you're having to be a mum and you would never want like your child, like us growing up to be exposed to like what is actually going on. And so probably having to suppress your emotions like that must have been also very difficult for you because

When you suppress things, it only makes things a bigger problem kind of thing. Well, in my experience. But so obviously, like, you know, it makes me feel obviously I would love to have made things better for you. But yeah, I think it's weird how history repeats itself because I think of my back to my mom when she was really at the height of her bipolar disorder.

And I wasn't really old enough to understand, but yeah, to kind of empathize. And now I look back. I wish that I had been older because I feel I could have been, you know, I could have helped her.

in some way, and especially knowing what I know now. It's not so much about ADHD, but about bipolar disorder. It's kind of

Yes, you just never know how extreme people's situations are. I mean, like I've had a few friends who've sadly taken that off, but you just don't like, you never know, you know, like, you just have no idea what's like going on behind closed doors. And someone may say, Oh, they're fine. And obviously, well, they're not fine. You know, I think it's just

So agonizing to think about, even though I sort of felt like that myself, but the true concentrated agony that someone must be going through to take their own life is just

and can't even imagine it's just desperately, desperately tragic. Do you remember thinking back what hole you were in? What feeling what was causing this feeling at the time? Extreme anxiety. And I think just my life was out of control and I was exhausted from holding it together. And I guess it was, you know,

I mean, it wasn't, you know, I wasn't, don't get me wrong, I was not suicidal and I would never have, I really was not, but it was that feeling of being trapped by alcohol. And maybe, you know, I think in the morning when my anxiety was only ever, I thought had those feelings that in the morning was because that's when my anxiety and my fear and my guilt and my shame

we're at its highest and then it would pass and i get on with the day and then i feel better and then i feel better enough to have another drink at six o'clock you know the vicious cycle so um but it's weird how people like having control of the things.

Or if I like having control of things, I'm anxious about what will happen. I make my brain might go, whatever. But then your drink, which essentially you lose that control. So it's weird how when you really want to be in control of something, but then you'll fuck yourself over by getting involved in boozing to a point where you have no control. It's just weird. One is not weird. I just find it

It's strange. I love having control over things, but a lot of drink and control is exhausting. And I think that's a lot of the reason why people do drink. It's really exhausting wanting to be in control. But maybe, yeah, wanting to be in control, I have to work so hard to being in control, being in control, especially if you're dealing the day after drinking.

And then you know that another drink will take that exhaustion away. The edge off. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, having been an AA myself, it's very relatable. I heard it time and time again is that danger zone, people who are wanting to stop, where they have that realization that they can't stand life sober because of the anxiety and they can't stand life with drinking, because that just takes them to a really dark place as well. And I think that when you're beginning that journey of sobriety, that can be a real danger zone. You're having that realization, it's really shit.

On both hands. Yeah. How did you get out of it? How did you progress past that phase? I don't think, Alex, I ever really went through that phase because I, I, you know, after the rock, rock bottom, I took myself to an AA meeting and it was just like,

I'd come home. It was the relief was so overwhelming that I was hearing stories about myself, you know, it was that identification and it was

The most liberating moment of my life was walking into that first meeting and primarily understanding that the only person who could help was myself so i didn't have to rely on anyone else so it's gonna go back to that childhood thing in a way of knowing that's really the only person i can rely on is myself and it was the same with alcohol to know that.

Although, you know, we say we're powerless over alcohol. But I actually, I felt, for the first time, I felt that I did have power and I could do something about it. And that was such an amazing feeling. I think, oh, sorry, well, you go a few.

I was going to continue just by saying it's a liberating feeling when, again, it's one of those things you hear in meetings where people realise they can live without these. Yeah. Such a powerful, liberating feeling. Yeah. It's because it's, you know, prison sentence. You either end up in prison in a psychiatric unit or in a grave. Yeah. And it's a progressive illness, you know, the more you drink, the more you drink.

And I'm just so grateful to be sober. What if you taught each other about ADHD or mental health in general, do you think? I think what you've taught me as me is that when times get hard, I don't have to go through them on my own.

And whilst as a mother, you know, I don't reveal everything because I want to be the parent and I don't look at my children as my friends. They are my children. But at the same time, you know, I have opened up and because Esme is an Uber empath.

She, without me asking, has given me the most amazing advice. And, you know, as someone who is so much wiser than her years would say. And I think having ADHD does create this amazing sense of empathy towards others.

I also think you haven't taught me anything explicitly, but through life and through my experiences and going through the ups and downs. You've been there for me, but you've let me

come to my own, you know, understanding of things and come to my own conclusions and make my own decisions. Like, even being in a not a good relationship, like, mom never said you need to break up or whatever, but she let me get to the point where I knew it was right. So I think you've allowed me to discover and become so self-aware, like as a person of who I am and my emotions and

that I think rather than telling me what I should do, you've allowed me to do it on my own. And I think that's why I'm so aware of things and I can support you. I've just given you enough rope to hang yourself. No, but you always support me emotionally. And you're 100% the first person I'll go to if I'm ever even just having a tiny little blip.

But you've also let me figure it out. And I'm so glad because I could easily just be like, mommy's gone, like, I'm too fab to do everything. But it's just, you know, made me like a stronger, stronger person. And I like being able to have that independence where I'm, I know I'm able to get over things myself. Not just about how important that you have that. So I think not teaching me things about ADHD, but having ADHD,

And learning about it myself and my experiences is so, it's way beneficial because I can then help other people if they needed it. And I love being able to have my experiences and share them. My friend, she just got diagnosed and we just talk all day about it and we're so similar and it's nice to have someone in your French group who takes it seriously.

It's not many people know they have it or they might not take it seriously, but it's so refreshing speaking to someone my age who really gets it. And I don't feel like there have been times in my relationship where I would think I was going insane.

Um, and actually like she shared very similar stories and I was like, oh my gosh, like it must be ADHD, like, ah, I'm not bloody mental, you know? So yeah, that's, I don't know if that's the question. I don't know who that is, but I'm not gonna say it, don't I? It's about to say, I don't know. An ultimate question. Yeah. And I'll ask Esme first, what do you think each other could improve on?

Um, you could improve what I'm answering what she can improve on, right? Yes. Okay. Sorry. Um, you can improve on maybe.

Like, sometimes I don't feel like you're listening to me and I don't feel hard. And I get really upset about that. I hate being like, I don't know, like, I don't... When I don't feel like I'm being hard, I get quite upset and I'll just sort of... I won't even react anymore because I know you're busy or you're doing things or so I'm just like, okay, whatever, but...

Yeah, maybe I hate to go back to drinking, but maybe it was a case of like, you know how you're saying you relied on your mum? Well, no, you couldn't rely on her. When you were drinking, I felt I couldn't really rely on you to be fair. So I would just, I don't know.

go in, deal with it. I don't know why I'm trying to say her, but I feel like being heard is something now that really triggers me because maybe as a kid I wasn't necessarily heard as much as I would have liked to. I know people have it off a lot worse, but maybe that because that really, I don't know why I really like it's deep when I just don't feel like you're listening to me or I'm not getting, you're supporting me enough. Which you do, but I think yeah.

I really understand what you're saying, because I think when drinking actively, actually drinking, you're not in the present at all, so I can completely

Yeah, that was not right. Take that on board and go, yep, hands up. And so I'm sure that is a trigger when I'm not listening to you. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And so, okay, that's good to know. I can slap you outside when we're not doing the podcast. Yeah, right. I'll make you feel Susanna hearing as me. All those two things.

I kind of immediately feel a bit defensive and go, well, you know, you call me six times a day. Maybe I can't take any more in. No, I think she is like, I know she would only say that if it was the truth. So I feel that's something that I can be aware of. I see it as a

Without, you know, everyone having to pass a sick bag, you know, but I think that's something that I'm really glad I know and I can do something about and I will... It's just more like a trigger. It's not like... It's just the way it makes me feel. It's not... I don't mind you not listening to me, but it's just more... It triggers something to me that genuinely makes me feel just quite upset, but...

The act of you not listening is not the thing. It's like, the emotion that makes me feel like it's very unsettling. I mean, like it just makes for us where it comes from. Yeah, I'm sure that's where it comes from. Okay. Your turn. Yeah, my turn. Bring out the list. Okay, so. No. One. No, I just wish that

you have more faith in yourself I think is the main thing is the way you see yourself is very different from the way other people see you and you know I look at you and I know you're my daughter but I can be quite objective but um

You know, I just wish that you could have more faith in yourself and, you know, your friends and people who love you see you as this amazing person, but you don't see yourself as that. Yeah. You agree with that assessment? I, yeah, I very much agree with that. I think I know I have, I know I could have more faith in myself and I'm probably able to, but I just, I don't know, it is true. But I just don't, I don't know, I feel

I don't ever want to be like, every time I do something good, I just don't think it's good enough, basically. And I'm always putting myself down before I've even done something. Like, this whole title thing, whatever, like, I just, I don't know. I was like, it's amazing. Like, it's really just not.

Yeah, but that's not even a good example. It's a kind of, but it's just not. It is just not, you know, I mean, it's amazing on one level, but it's like, you know, you have done so many amazing things, by the way, but no, but the meeting on the camera, it's not so much more than that. If I do, well, if I get a job or if I do an internship, I won't even give it time to be like, I've done really well. I'll just play whatever. And then I won't even,

make into account that I've had all these good things that I've done. I just think, okay, well, now I need to do the next thing to prove that I'm good enough kind of thing, even though I will never feel like, well, not never, but even I don't feel ever good enough, you know? Many people in the ADHD community, when they achieve something, they don't feel any sense of accomplishment, just, yeah, it's a relief that it's done. Yeah, totally. And you've managed to get it done.

Because you're sort of, I'm not going to speak on your behalf, because many of us, we sort of live in the now. The past and the future kind of don't exist. So we achieve something, we do it. And then, of course, that's then in the past, this is to exist. So when we're trying to do something else, we don't have evidence to draw on. So we don't think we can do it. We're sort of all floating along with this sort of evidence that we are capable of doing amazing things, because we don't store these achievements in our subconscious.

I've never thought about that since it hit the nail on the head. Exactly. Exactly. Because I always thought that, you know, I've done many things and, you know, I don't think, you know, yeah, I've had a career and it's been, you know, but I don't think, you know, it's sort of so what.

I always thought it's like being addicted to the hit of the next thing. So, okay, you know, people say, oh, God, it was so amazing. You were on Oprah or, you know, how was it? And I'm like, well, I don't really, you know, I don't really remember. And then it's like, but it's the next thing that's what's exciting. And so the next book, you know, getting a book deal, it's like, yes. And then once it's

done, it's maybe a sense of achievement for half an hour or something. And then that's it, it's on to the next thing, the next thing. And like, one of my best friends, Cosmo, shout out to Cosmo, he's like huge supporter of everything, but he's like so good. But today he was like, you know, you should enjoy the moment. I was like,

I didn't even know what that means. I didn't even know what a moment is. So thanks. Move on. There's this phenomenon called object permanence. Have you heard of that? No, I haven't heard of that. It was like objects, unless they're sort of in your immediate now, in your present, they cease to exist. And that can be with friendships, family members even. So it's difficult to maintain relationships, but that can also relate to events. You lose connection of an event. I was saying before, it's that sort of, because it's not in your now, if it's something you've done in the past,

You forget it's happened. You forget. You lose touch of the memory of your capability of being able to do something. It comes around again. You don't think you can do it and we call it Posta syndrome, whatever you like. But it's that we struggle to store our achievements in our subconscious.

Yeah, I also have that massively with relationships and friendships. I can just forget that I'm so bad at keeping contact with people. People think I'm being so rude and I feel so much guilt when I just can't see people or because I'm just physically can't. But yeah, I find it really hard to maintain things because I can forget about them.

And then when it comes around like meeting in a big group, I just like, won't think I can, I just feel so anxious. And then I've done it before, but I'm like, okay, I'm not going to, I'm not going to go. It's probably not the same thing, but yeah, I just have that, like, and everyone thinks I've, like, oh, you never see us like.

Sorry, it takes me to take five to three to five days to reply. But the guilt is hanging over my head. I know I need to reply to that person, but I just won't. Well, you think you reply or you reply mentally. Oh, I always reply mentally. I always reply mentally. You realize you have three weeks later, like shit. I never responded to that. I think if I looked up and what's up, oh, my God, I reply mentally. It will come up with thousands of thousands of different. Yeah. Well, people get it. Oh, the question.

I'll ask you again as to me first. Yeah. What would you never change about Susanna, your mum? I would never change.

I wouldn't change anything about you. I would never change your ability to, you know, be empathetic, passionate, be such a good mum. And you look after me so well, I'm going to get emotional. Oh my God, I actually have done. That just says it all.

Yeah. There's actually been a really emotional podcast because we've gone through so much. Have we got any tissues? Yeah, it's fine. I've got a cloth. That's going to help. Don't cry about these things. I think that's like because we've gone through so much in this podcast.

So I'm saying it builds and builds and that goes boof. But yeah, I think I wouldn't change anything about you, I guess. I know I even know I'm getting a bit too and I trust me I never ever cry.

Yes, it's I don't feel right or I just feel huge love. I don't feel pride. I think, you know, that's so great to hear. I just feel it. I can't really articulate it. I just. Yeah, this has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much. You enjoyed yourself. I've had such a good time. It's been

mind-blowing. It genuinely acts. I think everybody needs to come on this podcast because it's... I feel so enlightened and also just like...

It's almost like a release to talk about it and know that other people are going to hear about it. And I just hope other people can relate to it and think, oh my gosh, or something clicks. Thank God I'm not the only one. And I hope that everyone has the goal to just...

You know, mental health, especially in young people is such a huge, huge problem. And I do want to give a shout out to sign apps, which is this new organization that I'm very involved in, which

Helps will, so a young between the ages of 13 and 25, you get assessed and then you get put with a coach. Oh, I have. Yeah. Yeah. She's the best. And someone who's been through or can identify with what you've done. And it's basically, it's just the power of human connection. And it's an amazing organization.

I'll put the link to that in the description. Yeah. I mean, it's very sort of had a soft launch, but it's, um, it's an anyone can train to be, we don't need this on the podcast. Is it anyone can train to be a coach? Um, you could, we all could. And so I would be probably paired with someone who, a kid whose mom is an alcoholic or, and you'd be paired with someone who's got ADHD or there will be some connection and they get trained. And then if they trained to, to,

you know, be aware and assess if there was a problem where professional clinical help is needed. And I think it's going to change so much. Mental health and young people. I would also love to like help people with ADHD. It's about people my age. We have a closing tradition on the podcast where the previous guest writes three rules to live by. They post it in that post box and then through the magic of

time travel, I deliver the past guest's letter to you, and if you please could open it and read it out. Shall I read them? The three rules to live by. One, get a dog, I agree. Live, let's say love, love for all it's worth. Keep

Keep hope alive in yourself and others, and in others. Dogs are great, aren't they? Dogs are the best. Yeah, I mean, too. I'm not mad at the love of those dogs, but I want my own little dog. And they're soft, and they make, like, reduce things. You won't be able to look at that. You often as well, great for, I think, getting out and walking the dog. Well, that's it, isn't it? It's the social tools, the boxing, like, for you, boxing, running, exercise, so important.

Zana is me. Thank you very much.

How many domains do you own? Oh, I have, like, if I haven't actually made the WWE dot bits, but I have probably over, like, 100 different business ideas on my notes, which I've started, like, writing things out, like, and then I'm like, bought now, and then I just stop. I've got so many, but I haven't actually done the website, but just because I don't actually know how to make a website, I haven't ever thought I could get that far to be like,

It seems a bit of an effort. So a lot. But not domains, not specifically. What about you, Susanna? Do you have any domains? None. None. Do you relate to the boom and bust cycle that's sort of getting really enthusiastic about something and then just using interest a day later? Yeah, lots of ideas. Yeah, I get me doing that. I'm doing this. And then it's on to the next one. What's the most you've ever, like, actioned an idea? Have you ever, like, invested loads of time, money and something and then gone?

Yeah, I actually invested a lot of money into the NFT scene, made a whole NFT, made a few of them, which cost a lot of money. And then I just got bored and I wanted to sell all of them. I spent all that money. Maybe that's the most important thing I've done. Put a lot of my money in.

I didn't do anything with it. I just was like, oh, I literally made a whole page on OpenSea. Like, I designed my own digital images, like multiple of them, then put them on to sell, which, yes, I can't remember, it's complicated. And then I just didn't give up, didn't do anything with it. I moved on to the next thing. I have so many things like that, where I get really enthusiastic, honest people of the world. I have a commit.

Overcommit. Yes, yes, yes, and then do nothing about it and then feel so guilty. And achievable golf. What do you do then when the people are chasing you? I've got better at just saying, I'll go, yes, yes, yes. And then I'll go, actually, no. I should avoid. It's a very flat no, which comes as a shock that it will always be yes, yes, over committing first, rather than just saying no to begin with. What about shake? Do you order clothes online?

What if you don't like it? Do you have to take ages to return them? Takes forever to return. I just try a few boxes in my son's bedroom because he's not at home because he's in the Royal Navy. So he's away a lot. It doesn't come home very much. So there's, yeah, storage room. There's quite a few boxes waiting to go back.

So fun isn't it? The actual process of ordering them, but we don't get anything from the process of returning them. So they just doesn't get done. It's like my playlist from Spotify is over like 250 hours long. I only have one playlist and everyone's like, you're a psycho. You are like, no, it's just, I know where everything is. My players and exactly what each song is. So I was like, that's much easier. What about reusable shopping bags when you go to the supermarket? Do you remember to take those with you? Nope.

I didn't, but I'm quite good now. I do. I keep them in the car, which I think makes it a lot easier. Someone told me that tip, actually, keep them in the car, but then you've got to remember to take them from the kitchen car. So when they run out, it's the same problem. But if you just keep them, but then often they'll be in the car and I won't take them out of the car and I get to the till and then I get another reusable bag. I often like consider it.

But because my foot's out the door, I don't know. I'll just literally carry everything out. What about unread emails? I actually marked them all read recently, but... I must take ages. Can you do that one button for you? Yeah, you can do it one button. So I've got... Just rather than dealing with them, just wipe them all as red. Yeah, I just go like this and I click, Mark has read. I have like 799. That's a good tip, if it overwhelms you, just kind of essentially put it in the bin.

I did that with my photos as well. I do that in my flat. It's quite toxic traits. Even if something's quite expensive, it was so much clutter on my side. Even if it's something that's worth a lot of money, just overwhelming me is going in the bin. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm like that too.