I Refused to Kneel During the National Anthem & I Have No Regrets | Sadie, Christian, & Jonathan Isaac

What's up, boy, that's good fam. Happy Wednesday, everybody. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, y'all, it was about to get so much better because I have Christian on the podcast with me today, and we get to interview someone that is so awesome. His story is so incredible. You probably already know this person, but we're gonna get to know him more today. We get to have NBA star, husband, father, Christ follower, founder of United's Jonathan Isaac on the podcast. Welcome.

Thank you so much for having me. This is legit like a blessing. You guys are amazing and I'm really glad to be here to talk with you guys. Thank you. Seriously grateful you're here man. Thank you so much for being here. This is awesome. We are pumped to get to know you more and I get to just dive into your story a little bit preparing for you to be on and I'm so inspired so I can't wait to talk more but before

We get into all that. I have to ask you the question. I ask everyone who comes on the What's Gonna Podcast for the first time. And if you aren't prepared for this, it will come out of left field. But the question is, Jonathan, what's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given?

Yes, I was, I was, I was very prepared for this. So I got the drop and I was thinking, uh, you know, there's so many different things, but I was like, what, what is something that has replied in my mind for a really long time? And there was two, but, uh, there's one that, uh, it really profound. And it says what you are not changing, you're choosing.

Wow, that's good and that that one always stings because I think for me is like, you know, you grow up and you have You have trauma you have all of these things that are part of the way that you are And there's a lot of times where it can feel like it's somebody else's fault or not completely Your responsibility to tend to or to try to change or to try to work on and a lot of times we look at God like God like

This is how I am. This is how you made me. This is the things that I've been through, but it's like, you know, when we really get to the nitty-gritty of it and kind of look at ourselves in the mirror, it's hard to come to that realization that, man, what I'm not actively putting into process and trying to strategize and kind of just going, being intentional about changing, I am choosing those outcomes even when they are detrimental to myself or I justify them or have kind of sat in those conclusions. I'm choosing that. Man.

Yeah, that is good. That is really good. Yeah. So good. That hurts. I love what you said. Yeah, that one's saying that does. I was thinking about this today because Christian is so, you know, he loves working out. He's disciplined in that. And I have gotten off the train for a while and I need to get back to it. And when you said that, I was like, man, that's so true. Like, but it's hard to make a change, you know, like because you get in the pattern of it, you get in the habit of it. And that's like a small physical example. Obviously, like what you mentioned is a lot more.

Like an emotional thing is hard to change, but anything, it's hard to like, if you're going one way, like go the other. It takes actual intentionality and hard work and being uncomfortable. And, but I love that advice because it's so true. Cause I'm like, I'm choosing this and I know it will make me feel better. I just need to do it. And so you just, you just gave me some good advice that I needed to hear tomorrow's my day back. Tomorrow's my day back.

Tomorrow is the day. Tomorrow is the day. And start small. Start small. Get the baby steps. You're not going to do that on Saturday. Monday. No, just kidding. He knows you. That's how it works. The week is not going to roll around.

I'm too nice of us overall. It's my rest. Okay. Yeah, Monday. Monday's the day. Okay, Jonathan, you know, people know you from all kinds of different things, obviously, and then being an incredible basketball player and different things that you've stood for have been a part of, created. But we really want to just get to know who you are as a person in your story. So bring us back. What was your upbringing like?

My upbringing started in Bronx, New York. I lived in Bronx, New York until I was 10. But New York was, it was interesting. It was like, at the time, when I look back at it now, there was parts of it that were pretty dysfunctional just because of the neighborhood that we lived in. And some of the things that we had to go through, my parents were amazing. They worked super hard. My dad had us in church all the time.

Trying to get us out of the environment that was kind of around us but it was just kind of New York culture you know to see things and to be around things and I would say we were pretty naive kids because of the way that we grew up but because my parents worked so hard this is one quick story so.

My dad was a manager at McDonald's and my mom worked at the hospital. And so she would work all day, all night. It seemed like, you know, the night shift and my dad would work the night shift as well. So we would have to, and this sounds crazy when I say it, but for us as kids, it wasn't that bad. But now when I look back, it's like, oh, you know, that's rough. And I could see how some of the stuff like that could shape you as you grow up. But we would have to spend the night at the McDonald's. Wow.

in order for my dad to take us to school in the morning. But for us kids, it was like, we're sleeping at the McDonald's. Like this was, it was everything, right? It was like, yes, it was a two-story McDonald's, and we could see all the people coming in late at night. You had some characters, you had some weird people, but it was fun. It was just, you know, four brothers and my sister, and we just made it a time. But I would say that, I'd say for me growing up, I was a pretty, you know,

quiet, you know, kind of observing kid. I was a little more reserved than to myself. But at the same time, I had friends, I like to play sports. And then my parents ended up splitting up when I was 10 and I moved from Bronx, New York to Naples, Florida. And that's when the kind of the crux of my story, you know, started to begin, you know, where I started to have some issues and some struggles and, you know, the alzamezte led to all of this.

wow that's crazy you know it's so cool you said that about like looking back you can see that that was hard but in the moment it was fun and I think like that just speaks to so many parents out there who are like going through hard situations it really is how you shape it for your kids you know right right that's what they're going to experience because sleeping at McDonald's like that could have been really hard and the way that your parents portrayed that it could have made it feel like y'all were

really roughing it, but to y'all, the way that it was presented is like, we get to sleep out of McDonald's, you know? And like, I feel like so much of life is like just your perspective of it and how you approach it. And so that's so cool that, you know, you had that memory. I think that's awesome. And then moving to Florida was probably a big pivot from Bronx to Naples, a little bit different. What was your experience like once you got to Florida? I know you said you kind of wrestle with some stuff.

Yeah, it was rough. It was rough because it's just a complete culture shock. You know, we went from, you know, just frankly, New York was predominantly black and Hispanic and Naples, Florida was as white as could be. You know, me and my brothers and a few of the kids, I think it was like 13 kids out of our school at the time was, you know, African American, everybody else was white. And so,

It was just difficult to fit in. And what happened with me was I was trying to fit in and trying to make friends and horse playing with something that I was so used to doing.

That was how you made friends in the Bronx. You fight, you rough house, and okay, you're my friend. But it wasn't like that in April. They weren't receiving it. And so I got in trouble quite a bit. But for me, it was innocent in the sense that when I was bigger than everybody else, so what I would do is I would grab kids' ankles and I would drag them.

But for me, it was like, y'all were having so much fun. They're laughing. But I was getting reported. And I had this real, that kind of ingrained memory. And this is kind of where some of my issues started. I got in trouble. They took me to the principal's office. They call my mom. My mom comes to the school. She has to leave work. And the principal is like, we can't have your son endangering the lives of our students.

And my mom is like, oh, he's like, you know, he's just a kid. He's no, we're transitioning. Like, but for the first time, it was like a reality to where I was like, I didn't see myself the way everybody else saw me. And so it began this like internal, like kind of facing myself and kind of looking at myself going, you're not.

Cool you're not you know you don't fit in your you know you're not all these things and it started this kind of anxiety in me of just like. Okay i need to start working i need to work hard for the approval of everybody around me and it set me on this you know really disastrous path honestly but.

You know, part of the reason why I'm here right now where it was like my goal and my mind from then on was when I go to school, how do I make friends? How do I get kids to like me? So I became the class clown. I became the kid that tried to make everybody laugh. And it was really just this deep seated yearning for I need to be loved. I need to be seen. I need to be embraced. And it was really hard to come back. Man, that's so real. Do you remember how tall you were when you were 10?

No, but if I showed you a baby picture when I was two years old, you would cry. It was like I was five. I was big. I was big. Yeah. I was pretty tall. So when you moved to Florida, how did you get, like, how did kind of, you know, wrestling with that anxiety, how did that kind of transition to basketball and when you kind of started to play basketball more competitively?

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Well, what was interesting is that basketball became like an antidote where it was like where I'm trying to feel, okay, well, how can I get these, you know, these kids to like me and be my friend once I started to play basketball a little bit and I started to get better at it. It was like, oh, this is the ticket. This is the key. And so right. And so, um,

I became the number one player in the state of Florida. You know, I had, you know, all the girls wanted to hang out with me. All the guys wanted me to be on their teams. You know, we were a really great travel team. And that was kind of how I dealt with what that's that's how I masked it is the right way to say it. I kind of developed this persona of, you know, I'm the cool guy. I mean, I got everything together. But

behind the scenes, I was just a terrified kid of people finding out how terrified I was. And so that basketball persona was like this, this thing that I could put in front of everybody, but behind the scenes, I was broken. And it came out all the time in ways that I couldn't manage.

And so in high school, I remember just having these episodes of just balling my eyes out before games because it was like, I'm about to walk into this moment that is either going to reveal to everybody else how afraid I am. And they're going to see it. They're going to see the chink in my armor. And it was just this high anxiety moment. And it led all through high school to really the, I guess, the explosion of it was when I got to Florida State. So I'm the number one player in the state of Florida.

I'm going to Florida State. I'm their highest recruit in years for the school. So everybody's expecting me to be this guy. You're the big man on campus, and I just wasn't ready for it. And even though I tried to speak like I was ready for it, I tried to show up like I was ready for it.

behind the scenes. My body knew that I wasn't ready for it. And so I would have panic attacks. So think of, you know, think of the mental space of, I'm the guy. And, you know, everybody's on the team is kind of looking at me. We had some other great guys on the team too. So it wasn't like it was all on me. But I was definitely somebody that they were like, you're going to, you're going to be the one that's going to lead us, you know, to kind of great things and a tournament and everything. And so I started having these episodes at breakfast time where

I'd be eating and I would just freeze and I couldn't move. Couldn't do anything, couldn't eat. And my teammates would be like, one of my teammates would be like, you're okay? And we kind of like break out of it. I'd be like, yeah, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And then we had this kind of big moment where it's me and a teammate and we are in like study hall. And I have like a pass out episode where I don't know what's happening. Like ambulance needs to come and get me. The school, the team tried to keep it really under wraps. My family didn't know back home.

And they were like, yo, you know, kind of what's going on. And I was the first time I had an opportunity to talk to somebody. And they had me go see a psychologist, right? And

He's, I'm sitting with this guy and he's saying to me like, what could possibly be wrong with you? That like this, these are his words. This is the therapist. He's like, I'm sure you do fine with the ladies. I'm like, like, like you're going to be a top 10 pick in the draft. Like what is going on? And, uh, I was just like, I don't know. And so started anxiety medication. So number one, playing in the state of Florida at Florida state on anxiety medication. Um, one trainer knows one teammate knows and the coach knows, and I'm just trying to get through the season.

And it was this weird thing where the first half of games I would play Awful I got airball my shots But we created this kind of system where at halftime the team were going run direction and I would go in another direction to make this room by myself with that with the With one of the assistant coaches and that trainer that knew about it and I would just cry cry

And then for some reason, all the anxiety would just leave me once I was able to kind of get all that emotion off of me. And I go into the second half and I, I ball out. I play, I play like myself and, you know, played, you know, played into the point of being, you know, the number, number six pick in the draft.

That's crazy. Yeah, so it's like so cool. We're talking about this because we've been talking so much about identity and anxiety recently. And these are like the two things merging in your story. And it's so interesting because I did this poll the day and I was like, what do you typically find your identity in? And it was on Instagram. And so there's like a million different things, but ultimately what one of the common threads of what people found their identity in was what they found

a sense of confidence in. So it's like, I found my identity in this because I'm good at it. Or I found my identity in this because I was confident in that version of me or whatever it was. And then so many to attach that with like what people thought of me, what people saw me as, who people thought I was.

And I think so many people make that mistake of like trying to find their identity and security in what they feel confident in, in their own strength and own ability, AKA like the basketball, if you're really good at basketball or whatever your job title is or whatever, you know,

whatever cool thing that you got going on for you is like, I'm confident in this. So I'm just going to put like my whole identity in it. And then the problem is that that is that then your identity is attached to something that is performance based and it's all on your ability to muster up a good performance for you to always feel value and always feel worth. And then it's like, if people don't perceive you as doing good or people don't perceive you as crushing it, then like you, where is your identity? Like it's

it crashes, it fades. And I think that so many people do that though. It's like in the search for identity, they just attach it to whatever they can just find a little bit of assurance and a little bit of confidence. And that's why when people say, I wish my identity was in Jesus or I want it to be, I don't even know what that means for it to be in Christ. It's like, no, when your identity is in Christ, it's not just saying that to say, and it sounds good.

It's like actually forming it to be that because and it's the greatest thing you can do for your life because it's not on you. It's like you don't have to perform. You get to show up as you are and yet you have this identity base in something that was done for you. Pave the way for you. God is your father. You are adopted. You are a child. Like it's like the greatest gift ever to have assurance and something that's not on all on you to perform.

But your story represents most everybody's story in whatever capacity they lived their life in. When you talk about going to church as a young kid, and I know how strong your faith is now, but in this time of your life, where was faith in the picture of everything?

Yeah, great, great question. It was growing up for me. It was just traditional. Like, I didn't understand that there was a reality to a relationship with God, that it was like, you know, tangible. God knows me and loves me and has did this miraculous great thing just in order to be connected to me. I didn't understand it that way. It was just

kind of rules and, you know, this is what we were supposed to do because, you know, God is important and, you know, no slight to my parents, they were believers. We were in church all the time, but it just wasn't put on the proper platter in my opinion where it was like, this is a God who loves you and desires to be in community with you. And so for me, it was always just tradition, you know, because we were supposed to. We were at an amazing church and youth group when I got to Naples, Florida.

And I started to learn a little bit, really more of a foundation of the gospel there and had some great times. But once basketball, once I started to get that love from basketball and from the people around me, it took over my life in a sense of where I was like, this is where I'm getting that love that I feel like I need.

And so, you know, Christianity was just something that was in my back pocket. But there were still seeds though. There were seeds of understanding where if things weren't going right on the court, I'm going to switch all my music up and just listen to Christian music. And I'm going to put the Drake away. I'm going to put the future away. And I'm just going to listen to my Christian stuff. And then once I started playing well again, I just ease back and to do what everybody else is doing. But once I got to the NBA, I was

My mind was going, I was set on, I want to experience everything that the NBA life has to offer, really just in following the people that were around me. When you were at FSU, because I feel like sometimes we can convince ourselves of this, but do you feel like, number one plan, Florida, you projected to be a top 10 pick, do you feel like you would kind of convince yourself of like, when this happens, I feel like this anxiety is going to go away, or do you feel like,

maybe you thought it was going to be heightened if that happened, or do you feel like playing your freshman season at Florida State, you kind of had convinced yourself of, well, when I get drafted, whenever I get all this success and fame in the NBA, I won't be as anxious as I feel now.

I would say, yeah, it was like I was always expecting that there was going to be a moment where it broke, where it was like, and it was so interesting, where it was like, I couldn't see myself the way

other people saw me. So like, you know, my teammates or people would be like, yo, you're like, you're you're so talented. You're so this, you're so that like, and they would see me in this light. But I was like, I don't see myself that way. And so, um, it was like this thing of like, okay, this game that I just had where I was like, I had 30 points.

Now I'm good like now I don't have to be afraid anymore and I don't have to be nervous anymore and the next game will be coming up and this game is over and I'm already thinking about the next game and oh shoot I just played good this game I'm gonna so it was like it was like this thing of like I'm waiting for this moment of this grandiose thing like I'm gonna play so well that I'll never have to be anxious again.

Or something's gonna happen and it just never happened I was always already like my teammates are celebrating the coaches feeling the fans are celebrating and I'm like Oh, but I got a game in three days That that's gonna be the time that I'm exposed and everybody's gonna know that I'm actually terrified So it'll keep me up, you know keep me up and and just be this kind of this fear cycle That I was living through man, that's so real

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That's SadiePens.com to get all your Mr. Pim Bible journaling supplies today. You'll be so glad that you did. I struggle with anxiety so much back in the day. And same thing, it's like you think, okay, well, once I get past this, but it's like, yeah, and then there's gonna be another thing right around the corner that you're gonna have to get past. And the secret is like life's always gonna be like that. Like there's always gonna be something that's going to make you anxious in the sense of like,

it's going to feel bigger than what you think you're capable of doing or whatever. And I think that's such a good question. Cause I think people either put like a false hope and something like, Oh, I'm going to feel it when this happens or they have no hope in it and think, I'm just going to live like this forever. And either one's bad because the false hope is not going to help you. And then the coping with it with the fact that you're always going to have it. It's like, no, there's so much better for you in life. You know, it's like that was like when I get married, I'm not going to struggle with this or when I have kids. I won't. Right. Right. Right. You know, have

feels shame from. So it's like, but you're still, you know, like those things usually don't, like you try to convince yourself of that, but it never actually can sustain whatever you think it will. Not in your own strength, not in your own victories, for sure. So when you get to the NBA, you said you were like, all right, it's my time. I'm going to enjoy my life, live it up. What did that season for you look like? And by the way, like how long ago was this? So back when you were. This was.

So back when I was at Florida State was 2017. Okay, cool. I just think it's so cool to see timelines in people's life because that person, when you refer back to, probably feels so different than the person you are now, like married kids being who you are speaking to the things you speak to, but it's like that's not that long ago. That's so cool though. Okay, so you get drafted, you go into the NBA, things go a little wild.

Yeah, so really just what I was talking about was I want to experience the NBA life. I want to be doing what all these guys are doing. And I did it. And I remember so many moments where it was just like a realization that this is not who I am.

I would be at the club, you know, get home through the clock in the morning and looked at myself in the mirror and said, what are you doing? It wasn't this thing of like, okay, I need to turn to Christ. But it was like, this doesn't fit who I am, even though I don't know who I am. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just following and doing what everybody else is doing. But it was easy for me to realize that

I'm also trying to fit this mold that I'm just not. And so everything starts to go crazy around the time. I'm in Orlando. I got drafted. The preseason is going on. And it really is a long story, and it's a lot to share. And I'm not trying to do a shameless plug, but it is all in the book like the intricacies of it. No shameless plug. That's why you write a book. No shameless plug.

Check out the book, Why I Stand, and it'll give you all the nitty gritty. But if I'm going to summarize this, I meet a man on an elevator. And he says to me, young man, I can tell you how to be great. And I said, how? And he said, you have to know Jesus.

And I said, man, I'm a Christian. I know Jesus give me a loan. But during that time, it was right around that time I had got invited to a chapel. So in the NBA, 60 minutes before every game, there's a team chapel. And one of my teammates invited me, I go, yeah, I'll go to chapel with you. And the pastor over the chapel says, we're going to read from Luke 646. And that verse says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?

And it like smacked me in my face. I was like, that is me. And what's funny is I had never like knew Jesus to be like confrontational. Like that, like up in your face like, yo, why do you call me Lord and not do what I say? Like what's the deal? And expecting an answer. Like why do you do that? And I was like, and the question just really stuck with me.

And I started, I was thinking about it during the game. I was thinking about it after the game. And I kind of came to this conclusion in my life where I was like, look, I'm either going to drop the whole Christian label altogether and just kind of live my life or I'm going to actually try to figure this thing out. Like, what is actually going on?

So much to the point where I started researching Christian apologetics like crazy. So William Lane Craig, John Lennox, Frank Turic, Robby Zachary has all these different people. I'm binge watching to learn. And it got me right up to the cliff. It didn't make me jump off. But it got me right up to where I was like, this doesn't make any sense. This has to be real. But I didn't quite understand it.

So I meet that guy on an elevator, and he says to me, I can tell you how to be great. And he said, and you've got to know Christ. And from that moment is what I understand of God ordering your footsteps, because there are so many just crazy things that happen to meeting people in certain places and all this weird stuff. But long story short, that man is my pastor today. That's so crazy. The man on the elevator is my pastor today.

What he taught me truly is just about the unconditional love of God, the love of God, the love of Christ. And that's what started to really change my life. And I started to learn that I didn't have to make a basket. I didn't have to score a point. I didn't have to do anything. I didn't have to work for love. And it's still something that I have to go back to.

Daily where I'm like you don't have to work. Yeah right here in this moment in your dysfunction in your fear in your anxiety in your Sin in your you are loved and

It was just this revolutionary thing for me, and I started going to the church, and the church is where I met my wife. We're on our second kid now, but it was just like, I just started, I just became a sponge. I started learning, and I started being mentored by him, and my life just started to change. I started to see differences in me and the court, and the way that I was approaching the game.

There were all these little moments of God having me face fear. And one of them was after I started going to the church for a while, I had this weird moment in my room where I felt like something was telling me to preach.

So I went over to my mirror and I grabbed the brush and I'm preaching in front of the mirror. And I tell him about it. And he's like, well, God's calling you to preach. And I'm like, no, he's not. And so he's like, I think you should preach. And I think you should invite your teammates.

And I said to him, I think you're trying to embarrass me. This is what this is about. But these are the same teammates that I was in the club with just a few months before. So now I'm supposed to go to them and say to them, hey, I'm going to be preaching at church on Sunday. Could you please come? And he says to me, look, really only give me your answer after you really pray about it.

I pray about it. Of course, God is saying to do it. And I do it. I go to all of them individually. I tell them I'm going to be preaching. None of them showed up. But it was just about mustering to faith to do it. And it was so

funny cuz it was not it was it wasn't me it wasn't like me to ever do something like that so i had all these little moments of standing up and and and choosing to believe and and fight through the fear fight to the anxiety and i understand now that god was preparing me for what he ended up having me to do but

That's where it all started. That is so crazy from a man in the elevator. And like, I mean, we've all been in an elevator. Elevator moments are awkward. Like you try to like get past him, you know, it's like hurry up and get there hoping there's elevator music. But yeah, like I just love that your pastor before he was your pastor took the opportunity to ask like a thought provoking question. And that's what's so cool. I love how you said like you never realized Jesus was confrontational, but Jesus asked

so many questions. Like most of his responses are questions. And I think that's so good because he puts it on you. Like, what do you think about this? Where are you at? Like, where's your heart? And then like, you got to think about it. And I love how you came to the point. It's like, I either drop this, like, cause I'm not just gonna say I'm a Christian and it doesn't mean anything. Like it either drops or it actually becomes something in my life. And then like, just such a cool turn of events that

God would call you like someone who is used to struggle with like what people thought of you and anxiety to have to literally go to your teammates who you were just out in the club. That's one of the hardest things for people who like have a transformational moment with Christ is what are the people going to think about me who you saw me in my past. Right. Right. And I would even say, not to cut you off, but I would say still, like I think the

One of the things for me is it's still something that I struggle with. You know what I'm saying? But it has, well, one through just the kind of being in the word and being around people that encouraged me. But one of the things in my past always tells me is you're always going to have to speak back because the enemy is always going to be lying. It's exactly who he is. He will always lie. Whether you have defeated, whether you overcome anxiety a hundred times, he's going to lie on the 100th and the first time.

And so it's still something for me where I'm like, on a daily basis, I have to be like, I have to believe the word trust and trust the love of God. And there's so many times still that I don't do it. And then I struggle with the fear and I struggle with anxiety. But God is still right there. He's still right there and he's still loving me and he's still loving you. And that's what's so hard for us to grasp in our little finite, finite brains.

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Whoa. It's so cool that you say that. So like whenever I first heard about you, I heard about you during, you know, the height of Black Lives Matter and the COVID year and everything was so crazy and you made a decision to like stand. And I want to hear about that. But it was like, so like I heard about you. And I was like, Oh man, he like got to see and like that you're a strong believer in different things. And then like fast forward now,

And someone was like, oh, you should have Jonathan as in your podcast. And I was referring by, I was like, oh, was that the guy who did this? And yeah, follow. Yeah. I've seen all that. That's so cool. But in my mind, like my perspective of you, because all I had seen was like this controversial moment.

And you had this thing that you did out of like your, which I want to hear like, why? But it was just interesting because I was like, wow, okay, it was a little bit controversial. And then when I was seeing about you coming on the podcast, I was like, I wonder if I'm going to ask him about that. But then after I like begin to dive into your story and hear that you're someone who actually like has really struggled with anxiety, like really struggle with what people thought of you, then I was like, would this take something like a whole nother?

like deaf because i'm like okay this isn't someone who's like a controversial person to be controversial this is someone who like does something to be different than the crowd like if i struggle with anxiety i struggle with me i know like when you make a decision like that it's not because you want to it's not because you're like let's make a move no it's like

Something in you like you feel conviction the Lord said something in out of obedience you do it And so I feel like that made me so much more intrigued whenever I realized that what you struggle with so take us to that moment like Why why did you make the decision that you made? Yeah, no, of course, of course, of course

Well, I appreciate you saying that because I feel like I did experience that a lot afterwards where some people were like, well, we don't want to hear from you or kind of talk to you because of how controversial it was.

You know, a lot of people never got the back story. And that's really, that's a part of why I think the book was so successful was because people got to understand it. Like, this isn't just some guy that, you know, I'm strong in my faith. I know Christ and I'm doing this self-righteous thing. It was like, nah, this is some scared kid who felt convicted in a way and tried to, you know, in his best way to do it in a humble fashion. But honestly, it's so hard to put it into words how scary and how

You know just trying that time was for me personally and just everything that was going on so you know you guys know how crazy it was and first off how tragic the death of George Floyd was the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement and organization and.

For me, honestly, it was always about a solution. It was me saying, look, I see the problem. I see the issue. I saw what happened to George Floyd. What is going to be the thing that brings change? And so one of the things that went on was my pastor was preaching. This was right before we were going to go into the bubble before there was any talk about kneeling or anything like that. And he was preaching. It was during the time of the riots as well. And he was preaching just saying, you know, through the story of

when Peter jumps forward and cuts off the guy's ear. And he was trying to relay that this moment is like that moment in a sense of something has happened. And our response is going to dictate what follows. And he was saying how Jesus said, if you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword. And he was like, he was mainly talking kind of about black people. And he was like, if we jump into this moment in the same way that that's kind of we're used to or our flesh causes to, then we're not going to have real change or progress or

reconciliation or anything like that that we believe Christ wants we're gonna get the same result and so going into the bubble I had this mindset of

no matter how it comes out or even if I don't even have to say anything I didn't know that there was going to be kneeling or anything like that but it was just like I have this different perspective of I'm going to choose to love I'm going to choose to forgive I'm going to choose to lift up the name of Jesus and the gospel and let that be what creates change and reconciliation and everything like that and it turned out that just the Black Lives Matter movement was not on the same wavelength as that of that in my opinion.

And so a lot of the conversations that I had with people that were very involved in the movement, I would say things like that. Well, I believe that this moment God is calling us, this is an opportunity, right? This tragedy is an opportunity to bring healing and restoration. Well, this isn't that kind of moment is what I heard a lot of the time. We're not with that right now. And I respected that. And I was like, well, we're just not the same. And that's OK. Even though we share the same skin color.

And so I go into the bubble and we start hearing these murmurs about teams are going to be kneeling for the national anthem. And I was like, oh Lord, oh my goodness. And so we have a whole team meeting with all the officials and they say pretty much, hey, we're going to leave this decision on you guys because we were going to play the next day.

And all the teams that played before us already now, so it was like that time was coming. It's our decision. So we get into this player's only meeting, and everybody's like, look, we don't have a choice. There's no choice to be made here. If we don't kneel, then it is going to look like we are not with everything that's going on right now. It doesn't matter. Let's just wrap this meeting up. OK, we're done. At the end of the meeting, one of my teammates turned towards me, and I still to this day don't know why he did that. But he said, Jonathan, what are you going to do?

And it was like, you could hear a pin drop. And I was like, fellas, I'm not going to kneel and I'm not going to wear the t-shirt. And it was like, chaos erupted. Oh my gosh, here we go. And I told the story so many times, but every time I tell it, it's like so real to me because it was just what was happening. And they're like, here we go, man. What is your problem? What is your deal?

And I was like, fella, I can't throw stones from a glass house. I was like, I've fallen short. And I'm trying to get them to see it. But from my perspective, and I was just like, I've fallen short. I'm not perfect. And if my worst moment or my mistake or something that I even did deliberately was seen for everybody to see, I would want mercy.

or I want understanding, I want anything. And I said, I just want to use this moment to lift up Christ. And one of my teammates was like, man, you've never done anything in your life. That was funny. But yeah, so we have this.

And one of the bets on our team is just like, look, everybody do whatever you want to do tomorrow now, because this is going to be a whole show. And so I leave, and I can't sleep that night, and I'm on the phone with my pastor, and I'm telling him about the situation, and how I wasn't going to kneel and everything. And I literally was like, look, I don't think you understand how crazy this is going to be. I'm going to be a sellout. I'm going to lose my black card.

I'm going to be on Sports Center. I'm going to be on ESPN. I'm going to be on teams. I'm going to be everywhere. I hadn't signed my contract extension that was coming up after the season was over with. He said something to me. He said, Jonathan, you cannot stand for God and God not stand for you.

I was like, oh, I hate you. That's so good. And I was trying to give him a lot of reasons for him to be like, OK, I understand how crazy this is going to be. So kind of just don't do it. And he was like, you can't stand for God and God not stand for you. I don't know how he's going to stand, but you can't do it and him not stand for you. And I said, OK, I'm going to go through with it.

the next day it happened and I remember just standing there. Everybody's staring at me while we were warming up. I'm the only one out there without the Black Lives Meditation on and my team is looking at me like there's the other teams looking at me, the rest are looking at me and disgusting.

And so I'm just standing there and I was just praying to my breath like, God, like you gotta do, you gotta help me. You gotta help me, you gotta help me to say the right thing and to portray what I'm trying to, what I'm doing. As I don't know, I just know that it's right in my opinion.

That was that. And we had a, you know, after I get all the questions and the, you know, do you even believe that black lives matter, you know, and all these different stuff? And I'm like, no, that's not, that's not it. That's not what this is about. This is about Jesus said, if he be lifted up, he would draw him into himself. And I understand that racism and all the things that play our society, because there's more than just racism are heart issues.

And if we could fix the heart, which we know the gospel does, and we could have, we could have what everybody wants, which is real peace, if that's what everybody wants. And so, yeah, so that was that. And I think this line that kept coming to me was, if we could love each other the way that God loves us, right, which is in spite of our sin, in spite of our shortcomings, in spite of our differences, in spite of you did me wrong, he did me wrong, then we could have

we could have true reconciliation, true love, true peace. But we know that that's not gonna happen on this world. But yeah, that was that. And obviously there was a ton of backlash. I knew it was coming. I tried my best to stay off of social media, but it was hard. But the amount of encouragement, the amount of letters that I got, the amount of people who understood where I was coming from, and blew my mind. And that turned into the book, that turned into everything that you kind of see today.

Well, I think it's so powerful because it's like you were standing for a reason. I think again, it wasn't to be controversial. Like you had such a reason and it was such a good reason. It's not that you didn't cares that you cared so much. It's not that you didn't care. It's just that you were like, I see.

what everyone's doing and I care so much about that. But let me tell you what I really think is going to heal us, what's really going to help us. And it was actually drawing people away from just, you know, a movement to like what actually could.

Change lives and so I think that's what makes it like so powerful is, is that you stood for such a strong reason and such a strong conviction and then you portrayed it in such a loving way. And I think a lot of times when people do make a controversial move, it's not attached to love, you know, and that's why.

Like, it is so cool about you still doing what you're doing, like still playing basketball still. Like you wrote a book that was very successful in doing all this. Like that was in the midst of cancel culture. Like so many people did stuff during that time that like got canceled, you know, like done. And you did something near that time that like could have got you canceled.

But yet you've had more impact, more success from it. And that's because you did it out of love, like you did it for a reason. And the things that you did it for, the things that you still stand for, the things that you still care about, which I think speaks so much to the integrity of it.

That's the cool thing too. I feel like, you know, it even helps for from like the judgment side of things for people not to judge because, you know, if you're on the outside looking in and people see you do that, but then yet they don't know that the night before you can't sleep, you're crying on that, you're talking to your pastor, like you're actually wrestling with

you know, the human and like, yeah, it's not like you woke up and you want to be, you know, wanting to make this stand. It was like something that you actually really wrestled over. And I think that's, I think that's cool for people listening, you know, who see a certain thing. It's like, you don't, you know, you don't always know the full story. And I think we, you know, need to be slower to judge people for things that we don't know the full story to. So it's cool to hear the backstory of like the night before it happened, you know, all the things that you were wrestling with and the conversations that you had and

you know, just the anxiety that you were kind of facing towards there. I love it. I just love what you said because Christian, we're talking about this the other day because he like wanted to post this whole thing about. I was so happy. I was so happy when TikTok got there because Christian like hates TikTok. So he wanted to post is like.

video about how this is the best thing actually to tap in and like, and it was a little controversial in my opinion, what he was wanting to post. And I was like, okay, let me just, let me just tell you my opinion. I'm like, I'm not saying don't post it because people aren't going to agree with you. I'm not saying don't post it because people aren't going to like it.

Why I don't think you should post it is because I don't hear love and your tone. You said you're not offering a solution. You're not offering a solution. If you were doing this because you really cared about how TikTok has negatively impacted people, which I think you do, then your tone needs to be like why it would be so much better for your life. The solution, why you care about it.

social media has negatively impacted your life and like the road you went down with Snapchat and how you see similarities on TikTok. I was like, because you do have a reason, but you're not expressing the reason. All I hear is like, TikTok's the worst I ever, I'm so glad that we don't have it. And it's like rejoicing in something people are sad about losing. So instead of that, it's like, you need to offer like a solution, a care, a heart response. Like think about it for a couple more days and maybe like add like

subscription to it like a reason for it, you know? So it's just funny because I do think like so much about how you come about things. It's not that you can't talk about a topic because it's controversial. It's just how you do it and why you do it. And at the end of the day, like why you make that decision. It is second. I want us to talk about United because I think it's so amazing. And like I said, what is so cool to the integrity of what you do is that you're still doing it. You're still preaching it. You're preaching it loudly. But before I do, I had to ask you a question. I'm so intrigued in because I think so many people like

Not even with cancel culture, but just in life, you surround yourself of people who kind of agree with you, who think like you do, who, you know, live similar lifestyles. But when you're on a team of people, like you are a place on a team of people that y'all are like, y'all could be so different in so many ways, but like you have a commonality in basketball.

Well, I'm sure like so many of the guys are some of your best friends, some of y'all are probably so different. And in moments like that where you make a decision that's different than your whole team, like how do you work past that? Like you're still in the, like you're still in the same team, you got to work past it, you're in a season. Like do you think that's helped you in life be able to get along with people who are different than you just by being on an actual basketball team, learning how to like be a team with people in general? So it makes sense.

Absolutely. And that wasn't even the worst of it. So not to take a lot more time. So after I stood right, so this goes right, we were saying, we still had to play. So it wasn't like that was just one game. There were other games to play. And they were going to keep the teams were going to keep kneeling. So it wasn't like, just you stood and that was it. You're going to leave the bubble now. So after that day is over with, all the media, everything, the next day's practice,

We go to practice, relieving practice on the bus back to the hotel, and I get a text to my phone, hey, team only meeting when we get to the hotel.

I'm getting off the bus, one of my teammates is like, yo, this just is a heads up for you. This is about you, just letting you know. And so I'm like, oh, Lord, what's this going to be? So I get in there and it's heated. Like we had a few guys on our team that were like, they were really deep in the movement. Like they went to the protest, like they were, and they were like, look, we're not kneeling next to you standing. Like we will stay in the locker room.

And I was like, oh my goodness. It's like I wasn't ready for it. And at the same time, we had guys on our team that were like, yo, look, we know Jonathan. We know this isn't about him wanting to take the spotlight or anything like that. We know him. My nickname on the team was Baby Jesus. That's what they called me. They're like, we know this guy. Just let him be.

I was just like I tried to get to understand like I wasn't protesting y'all like I was I wasn't protesting your protest I was just saying I have a different solution and I respect you guys decision to Neil like just please give me that same respect and return and And so we had to end that meeting and I remember I call my pastor crying and

I was like, you know, like, I did something wrong. Like, I messed up. Like, I didn't, they didn't go right. Like just the whole night. And my, my pastor's like, he's like the OG. He's, he's like, he's really dope. Um, his name is Dr. Duran Hepburn. Like he, he's a straight shooter. He was like, no, no, you did exactly what you're supposed to do. He was like, you respected them, kneeling. You know, they got to respect you standing. You keep in it. But to that point is like, it still had to go on.

And I still love every single one of those guys. And I understood also how emotional the time was. I'm looking at it like, I understand why they'd be so mad and why their countries have said why I have the countries. I get it.

And so so I had to come in there with humility as well like not like oh I know everything and I know the right answer and I'm Self-righteous or above you guys because I have this opinion I really tried to like be lowly and be like look guys like I respect you guys This is just my kind of my prerogative and it worked out because later on I had a lot of conversations with some of those guys and they were even like yo

Sorry, I was really emotional during that time and after certain things came out about Black Lives Matter organization, everything like that, they were like, I was too deep invested to understand what was happening. And I think because of the position, because of the heart posture that I took, it made that easier. But if I went in there with, I know God and you guys don't, it would have been a lot harder for me. Yeah, that's so good. All of that.

So from all those two came United, which we are all repping right now. I got my t-shirt. Christian's got his shoes. You're rocking your hoodie and you even play in your shoes. Tell us about the brand why you started it, how that got started. And yeah, I think it's absolutely incredible. And you have some really cool stuff on there.

Thank you so much. You know, this is my baby, man. So during that time in the bubble, after I stood that first time, right, we have that team meeting and we have to play again. And that second game, I tear my ACL. Oh, my gosh.

So I had to leave the bubble and my team stayed there and darkest time in my life. It was like, I was like, God, what is going on? Like, it was awful.

I was depressed like it was bad, but I'm grateful for the people that I have around me because if it wasn't if it wasn't for my past it wasn't for my wife I would have quit like I would have just been done quit on God quit on myself But I've learned about God throughout that process that God is not just the God of the hills He's a God of the valleys and he walks you through his faithful and times that were not faithful to him and and I've learned his faithfulness and one nugget that I

that I took from that was, we don't know. I know we read about God being all these things. He's faithful. He's a father to the fathers. He's a mother to the mothers. But you don't know Him in those ways until you need Him to be those things. And it was like, God, I know you're faithful because I read about your faithfulness. But now, God, no, I know you're faithful because I needed you to be faithful in your work. And I got to experience you in that way.

That's what it was for me during that time where it was like I had to restart my whole relationship with God because it was bad. So during that time, right? So I'm injured and I'm having to come on my road to recovery and I

I'm telling my pastor, hey, when I give back, oh, so I was a Nike athlete at that time. I was signed to Nike, and Nike decided not to resign me when I was going to be coming back. And I told him, hey, I'll probably try to go with Adidas or something like that when I come back. And he was like, why don't you make your own shoe?

And I was like, that's how he is. That's exactly how he thinks. Why don't you make your own shoe? I'm like, players don't do that. You have these companies for a reason. And he's like, no, make your own shoe. And so started going down that road. And God just blessed it. Everything started to fall into place. The right people came around it. And we created the Judah one.

And then as that was happening, I get a call from him and he's like, hey, I'm at the church right now, I'm praying and I'm looking, so what we have in our altar is the Ark of the Covenant, like a replica of it. And it has the fire in the middle and the wings pointed in and he's like, he was praying to God and he was saying, God, you're the only thing that can unite us. Black, white, political divisions, male, female, all these, you're the only thing that can unite us. And he was like, Jonathan, you need to name your brand, unite us.

And I was like, Mike, drop. All right. That's the name. That's the name. And we created the Judah one, which was the first NBA signature sneaker with visible Bible verses on the outside of them. And so all of last season, I'm wearing basketball sneakers that have, you know, different Bible verses on them, Proverbs, 21, all these different ones. And, uh,

it was awesome and you know people learned about it and they started to blow up and we just grown like we went from the the Judah 1 and now we're working on the Judah 2 and we came out with some low tops and we came out with the fortress that Christian has on right now and all of them have Bible verses on them.

And it's just been awesome. It's been a great endeavor. A lot of learning, a lot of ups and downs. And it's so funny being on the opposite side of a consumer. And now you're trying to make product. It's like, oh my gosh, you have no idea what people actually like or what people want. But it's been awesome. But just the heart behind it is

I want to give people an alternative, an option that is high quality sports and apparel option that is centered around honoring God and just walking out what it means to be in relationship with them and how to love people and to do that united and together and that's where the brand is.

So cool. I think it's so cool because like, you know, I love how you say like high quality, but also Christian because it's cool from someone who like truly loves the Lord. So that's going to be a part of the shoe, but also actually plays basketball and is going to be playing in the shoes because you can trust the quality. And Christian put those on. He was like, no, these are actually awesome. He loves it.

I literally love this. So we are, you know, we were fans of four bigger fans now that we actually know you. Jonathan, it's been so great just hearing your story. Thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing everything. And we could not be bigger fans of all that you're doing, cheering on you and your family and your career and unite us and all the things that, thanks for being on the Wodesco podcast. It has been awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate you guys.