I'm suddenly thinking of an Umpapa Band (with Joan Armatrading)

Because I really think I'll keep my puritanical views on daytime television. Yeah, that's a worry, isn't it? And yes, there's a state occasion. Completely different. OK. And I willingly... Well, that's fiction, isn't it? That is fiction. The Times and Sunday Times Black Friday offer has arrived. For a limited time only, you can read our award-winning journalism for just a pound for four months when you sign up to a digital subscription.

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This episode of Off Air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by John Lewis Money. Fee, is there anything you can't find at John Lewis? No. As well as all the great bedding, kitchen kits, beauty from brands that we all know and love. You can pick up cozy cashmere, Christmas decorations and even essentials for your pet. How about a new collar for Nancy? Well, and some sparkly pieces to wear to all those festive get-togethers. Well, quite.

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Here we are. It's Wednesday in the land of Offair. And thank you very much for being a part of it. Feet is back. You all right? Yes. Going to the family funeral yesterday for my lovely auntie Sue, Jane. And she was lovely, and she, and it was one of those funerals where

We were at a crematorium, but I don't know what the right term for that official is. But anyway, the lovely guy Raymond, who was leading... Was he a celebrant? Yes, I think so, thank you. He did a very fine job, and I think everybody

And she learned something about Sue's life that we didn't know. So there were lots of people there from all parts of her life, and I think that it was really beautifully done, really beautifully done. And she had had an amazing life, Joe. She was an erstuodess right at the height of the glamour when air travel took off. Yes.

As it did. It's almost impossible to find another way of saying that. But she worked for Air Canada and then for BOAC and then for British Airways. And actually, the last time that I saw her, she told me this fantastic story about one time when she was working for BOAC, she had broken her toe when she was off the rotor. So she turned up in a pair of very smart, sensible, flat shoes because she had a broken toe. And her boss wouldn't let her get on the plane. Well, no, because she wasn't wearing

high heels and she, you know, she had to lose a couple of days' wages missed the flight until she could stand up and, you know, crippling high heels again to go and serve a meal. I mean, it's so, sometimes I think we do have to acknowledge how far we've come actually and how far we still have to go because there are still airlines who are asking their female staff.

to wear a heel chew, not a high heel. You know, Sue said they had to totter on in stilettos. Isn't that absolute mad? It's just crazy to go and serve food, you know, in a not particularly stable environment. So we were having a laugh about that the last time I saw her. But she'll be much mess. She was a really absolutely beautiful woman. She had such kind of touch. She was tiny. She was even smaller than you and I, that she just had the hugest heart. So there was a lot, a lot of love in the room for her. Oh, well, thank you for asking.

These things can be done so well these days, I think. Oh, really beautiful. And when it's beautifully done and everybody who needs to be there has managed to be there as well, which I think is the wonderful thing as well. It was a really lovely celebration of a great life.

I mean, I do think we've all been to those funerals where the person doing the service, usually they're not always somebody from a religion, just doesn't know the person who's died at all. Yes, and slightly lets everyone down. Because you're so with them, aren't you? You want them to do it well, you want them to say something of meaning about the person that you're all missing already.

And I'm absolutely with you. When it's done rather badly, it's so crunchy, isn't it? And it doesn't help with the morning process at all. And also, I think it's really important just to bring to everybody in the room.

the course of the life of the person who's died, you know, that they weren't always an older person who had perhaps a relatively small life, but they were out there doing stuff in the world. No, absolutely. And that's what I mean actually about, because there were people from all parts of Sue's life there, there was also something that those people learned about the other parts of...

I mean, my kids have only ever known her as lovely great auntie Sue. So, you know, they learned enormous things about her. And actually, I didn't know that she had lived in Montreal for a while, which is why she joined Air Canada in the first place before coming back. So there we are. No, it sounds really a really good event. And actually, we should invite our correspondents on the subject of air travel, whether or not you've ever worked for an airline in whatever capacity it may have been. You could have been a lady pilot.

people start as well. We may just put the lady back to bed. Let us know. Jane and Fie at time stop radio. Now, the farmers protest was occupying our minds. It was in the centre of London yesterday. Did you encounter any tractors? No. Well, I mean, the country side was completely empty. It was empty because they'd all come to London for all the other way. I did enjoy the images of Mr N Faraj, dressed as a farmer.

He's got all the kits, hasn't he? Because one moment is there raising his fist in triumph, representing the people of Clackton in the United States. That's right. Absolutely what they want. Absolutely what they want. But you tell me he's a farmer now. And when he was dressed as one, in what he believed a farmer would wear. So rather pristine looking, I think they were mustard-coloured jumbo cords. The inevitable flat cap.

You just think, okay. Any tweedy bits in between? Oh, I'm sure there were some tweedy bits. Probably that the flat cap was tweed, and he had the pristine barber on as well. So yeah, look, who am I to judge? Where's Jane Garvey? I'm going to keep judging.

We have had an interesting email from somebody who wants to be anonymous. They say, I'm a probate lawyer in a rural part of Northern England, and I've been dealing with the estates of deceased farmers for over 25 years. I also spend quite a lot of time providing planning advice tips to clients about succession and in order to minimise taxes.

I feel that the government figures regarding the number of farms that will be effective just can't be right. I am one probate lawyer and I probably deal with at least five or six deceased estates every year where inheritance tax would be paid if it were not for the current agricultural property relief. So paying the tax on these farms would be devastating for businesses and definitely result in the sale of farms and expertise being lost as well as livelihoods.

Honestly, she says the majority of my clients are very hardworking. They have a love for the land and the environment, and they make very little in the way of income. It's also worth saying farming is dangerous, constant, and very hard work. I've got clients in their 90s still involved in the family farming business, but sadly, do not have the requisite number of years left to live to allow them to now gift the land without a tax penalty. It has to be seven years, doesn't it?

One of these gentlemen is 98 and has worked for everything he has. He inherited nothing. His business now employs four family members. I do thank you for that because I think it's really important to hear that side of the story. And there are so many... Well, when you weren't here yesterday, we got some very strong messages and emails on both sides of the argument. And it is very clear there's real vitriol towards the farmers from people who...

quite ignorantly feel that they have too much a lot. Equally, you know, some of them are affluent. And there are these people who just buy land because there are tax advantages. Yes. And I know that your friend and great mentor, Jeremy Clarkson, has been challenged, not a friend.

He's been challenged quite successfully, hasn't he, in an interview about why he bought his farm? Because he said, in the first place. He actually said himself, he was interested in the tax advantages of owning land.

So why can't somebody clever at the treasury make that distinction? So why can't there be a way of making sure that farmers whose land has been in a family for generations are exempt from attacks that would cripple them and ruin that continuation and only make people pay if they have bought the land within the last

ten years or whatever. You would think that would be possible. You'd hope it would be. I just want to end with our anonymous correspondent who is a probate lawyer. She says, I think the proposed legislation is lazy. With some thought, the ordinary so-called farmers, this is to your point, who work every day of the year and long hours,

in lambing times often surviving on little sleep could be protected and the wealthy who invest in land as a tax haven and those who've inherited the land through generations but haven't got their hands dirty, pay their fair share. Brilliant. That's right, isn't it? Yes. That's really what people are after.

And there are so many other cases within our law and within tax where you're asked to justify how you're making your money. So if you think of other areas of property, you do have to prove that you've lived in a house that you've bought in order to avoid paying capital gains tax. And there are lots of ways and methods that HMRC do that. So you would have thought that there would be a way of proving

I'm the kind of farmer who actually farms for 365 days a year and I genuinely would not have the money to pay the tax without selling land and therefore diminishing my business. But I'm often wrong.

Not at all. Steve says, can I ask the question, why is farmland so valuable if the income for farmers is low? It can only be that the land is attractive for some reason other than ongoing financial return. Currently, that extra attraction does appear to be a way to avoid inheritance tax, and once that attraction goes,

The land won't be worth so much and the tax won't be a problem. And seeing as farmers don't want to sell up and would like to keep the farmers a family business, that shouldn't worry anyone. In the meantime, farmers don't be dense if you want to avoid inheritance tax when your children take over the farm, pass it on to them when you can still reasonably expect to live for more than seven years. That's the planning bit, isn't it? Yeah. Plan for it. Plan for it, yeah. Of course, none of us know whether we've got another seven years in the locker, do we?

No, but I guess, you know, at 98, it's 98. Yeah, you'd be lucky. Yes, you would. Yeah, you really would. We've been talking, well, yesterday we mentioned it, and the day before we were talking about a rare bird. We've been talking about bird watching. Rachel says, I was amused to hear you discussing the rare bird turning up this week. That was the scarlet tanager. I hope I've pronounced that right in Halifax.

My dad is a fanatical birdwatcher, and it very much dominated our lives. Now the birdwatches are all on Twitter, but in the 90s he had a pager like a doctor would have, and he'd subscribe to various birdnet alert things.

Here are some ridiculous things that happened to me in my childhood, she says. He'd taken me and my brother to visit our grandad, which is about a 10-minute drive from home. And on the way back, the page had beeped. It was a mega alert that had its very own, insistent ringtone. I read the message out, and Dad immediately did a U-turn, and we ended up in the Lake District. Gosh, it's a good three-hour drive away. He gave us a fiver to get some food from the spa and call Mum with the change to explain why we weren't at home.

This is because there'd been a bird sight. On another occasion, whilst towing the caravan home from holiday, there was another mega alert. You can't go very fast with the caravan, it's unacceptable. So he left it, and my mum, brother and me, by the side of the road, somewhere in Lincolnshire, and drove off without even saying where he was going or how long he was likely to be. After a couple of hours, we were quite thirsty, but the only liquids in the caravan were Stéler-Artois and Ribena.

So mum gave me and my brother snakebites. We were tenonate at the time. Finally, on holiday in Spain, there was a rare type of vulture that my dad wanted to see. He paid me and my brother a fibre each to lie down on some rocks, pretending to be dead. Got this man! Oh my word! Until the said vulture started to circle near us.

we were lying there for quite a while but they did eventually come to investigate I'm sorry it's a long email she says I just wanted to make the point bird watching is ridiculous and it's an anti-social hobby and I see the lack of toilets is protecting woman kind from its cultures okay Rachel um

You've had some pretty extreme experiences there. She has, hasn't she? Very much so. Your dad is obviously more than keen as a bird watcher. And I think, judging from your anecdotes, that he certainly prioritised his interest in bird watching. That's ridiculous. I'm sorry. But how should I have livid you a bit if you were left in a lay-by?

with a couple of cans of Stella to recalcitant children, and you'd be entitled to people's houses. Oh, my God. With no idea when you were going to be picked up again. Oh, for heaven's sake. I'm quite shocked. Rachel, we send you our very best, and when I think when merchandising is back in stock, you're definitely going to go on the list. Yeah, for that. Just for the experience being left in the caravan, it was in rural Lincolnshire. Nothing wrong with Lincolnshire. No.

But I think also being made to lie on a rock, so a vulture will come closer to you. That's not a particularly pleasant childhood memory, isn't it? Funny-ish in an anecdote, but at the time, just time. It's not often the case, but it does happen when the hobby of either parent just dominates an entire household.

And I am going to stick my neck at her and say it's more likely to be the obsessive interest of the dad that can lead to, shall we say, well, as we can hear about holidays being curtailed, arrangements been rearranged. Well, let's try and find... Yes, let's try and find the woman. Some lady hobbies that have proved to be a little bit intrusive into family life. Yeah. Yeah. Are you someone who knits through dinner, paying no attention, whatever?

Yep. But you're on the money, though, because my big worry about quilting is that suddenly, during a family event, I'm going to have an idea for a pattern of material, matching another pattern of material. I'm just going to have to go, Jane. At any moment, I'm going to have to go. Would you leave your children in a caravan with any snake bite? Yes.

Daytime Television comes in with Tim in York, who says, I picked up on Jane's comment today with regard to the traditional view that Daytime TV was only permissible if the programme was non-fiction and informative. Well, I'm afraid to say we're both on the money on this one, Tim. As in her house, World at War met these criteria, and when it screened 26 epic weekly episodes in 1973, it became a fixture on Sunday afternoons in our house. Now, I think the weekends are exempt from this.

Are they? Yes. Well, I don't know. They're definitely in a different category. I think they're slightly more acceptable. The watching fiction during a weekday daytime is absolutely off the mall. I'm afraid, scale. It does put you in the dockers for a time. It does.

It also happened to often coincide with a late lunch on many a Sunday and I recall one day being at the lunch table with my three younger siblings keeping one eye on the last remaining roast potato whilst also observing American soldiers using flame throats to flush Japanese soldiers out of foxholes in Okinawa.

different times. It's not funny but the way he tells it is. In a similar vein in 1967 when programmes had to be watched at the allotted time or you missed it for good, the Forsyth saga garnered a television audience of up to 18 million viewers.

However, it screamed every Sunday at around 7pm and as churches at the time realised that they were losing in the popularity stakes, they wisely rescheduled Sunday evening services earlier so that their parishioners could attend a service and still get back in time for the next thrilling instalment of the saga. Well, that's the spirit and it's that kind of a mean ability that doesn't seem to have continued within the church and the empty pews tell their own tale. They do.

very much to Libby just wanted to say that she is a newly retired person and she is indulging in watching fiction on TV in the afternoons what a joy now Libby you're exempt because you are a newly retired person and Libby goes on to say I've too many things recorded to watch them all in the evening so I've taken to watching in the afternoon I may even have to watch in the morning

That steady girl, steady girl, as I've got all the quiz shows to watch mid-afternoon in mitigation if required. I'm only three weeks into retirement. So really feeling like I'm on holiday. There is a much more enriching programme of activities planned for December and going forward into 2025. We believe you, Libby. But for now, excuse me, because I'm off to binge watch the diplomat. Good luck. Enjoying the show, is it too early to say happy Christmas? Yes.

Come back to us in around about the 18th, 19th of December. We'll take good wishes. Yeah. Until then, forget it. Libby's got a lovely sign off. A strong woman looks a challenge in the eye and gives it a wink. Thank you, Libby. I think we can back at you. Absolutely. And only three weeks into retirement, I think you've no doubt worked very hard over many years. Good luck to you. Yeah. And I'd like to know what your plans are for next year. Will there be a cruise up or down the Danube?

Yes, it's a good point, isn't it? So what is on the agenda come 2025? And keep us posted. I think that transition must be very difficult. I would do exactly the same thing. I should just do all of the things that I've been able to do during the daytime. So I definitely go and swim when it's not quite so busy. I take the dog for a walk and not everybody else is taking their dog for a walk. So that's complicated.

Nancy's just got to the age, Jane, where she just doesn't really want to engage with people. Do you know what I mean? She's just had enough. Yeah. So she sees a great big pack of dogs and they all come to look at her and have a little bit of a sniff because she's very beautiful. And she just looks at me with her big eyes and kind of goes, oh, yeah, I know. Not another drinks party. What time's count down on? Yeah, exactly. Can we go home? So Libby would be with you on the sofa. But then, when does it kick in that your horizon is different?

Well, let's go easy on her before the time being. She's got a hectic schedule for 20-25. No, but genuinely, I'm very interested. Yeah, I know it's a really interesting time. I am, because, yes, I'm interested in the whole business of occupying time, mindfully. Yes, because you're quite worried about it. Oh, I am, yeah, because I think, God, I will just end up tidying draws. I don't know whether I really... Because I really think I'll keep my puritanical views on daytime television.

Yeah, that's a worry, isn't it? Yes, there's a state occasion. Completely different. And I willingly... Well, that's fiction, isn't it? That is fiction. I will widen that to include things like the state opening of Parliament. I do what you will be so there. You'll be watching all of the Parliamentary Committee. It won't be very good for your blood pressure. It probably won't.

Adam says, as a family, we're all heading back to Blighty from Perth for Christmas, albeit our elder son and his girlfriend have organised their own itinerary that includes staying a night with his granny and introducing his girlfriend to her. Now, on a recent call, my mother-in-law asked whether it would be OK not to change the sheets for us after our son's visit.

There was a slight pause as my wife delicately suggested that the couple may have relations. Granny leaned into the FaceTime call and looked confused and said, what? In a manner that mimicked Penelope Keith, I can't mimic the great Penelope, so I haven't even attempted it. Said my wife, you know, R-E-L-A, et cetera, mummy.

There's a look that people get. There's probably a German word that describes it, says Adam, when they reach a conclusion without it having to be spelled out. The shock on Granny's face quickly turned to one of amusement. Oh, she said, and considered that a tool. Do you really think they would in my house?

After agreeing that it would be inappropriate to ask, we said we'd strip the bed upon arrival and wash the sheets ourselves. Love to all of you, Adam. Oh, Adam, thank you. Adam, have a safe trip back to the UK. I hope you have a lovely Christmas. And yes, I think you've reached the very sensible. But this isn't an advice show. God help you if you're using it. But I think that's a perfect, perfect compromise.

What? That the couple, upon arrival, will strip the sheets recently vacated by son and girlfriend. OK. I just think that there are some places where you can pretty much guarantee that people don't give in to their romantic desires. That was... Yeah. I think... Well, I'd like to think... I'd like to think for you, but I've been alive a long time now.

OK, well, I mean, if you're going to send us any kind of email, you know, just bear in mind our sensitivities. Jamele Karens is too much for me.

Jane Malkarian's gone to the top of my daughter's charts because she bought her a cat selection box. A cat selection box, OK. Which we've now put on top of the fridge, so Dora doesn't see it. OK, yeah. And is that in time for Christmas? Yeah, well, what do you think it's for? I don't know. She just might just be a random gift. I'm not saying Jane Malkarian's got it free. But I think there's a very strong chance she did. I paid good money for Nancy's advent calendar. She's got one. She's got dog treats in it. Yeah, she. Yeah. OK.

that kids were only mildly upset that that had arrived before theirs. Oh god yes it's that time of year when nearly adult and indeed adult children in my case do start asking questions about their advent calendar. So the advent calendar is a rich theme. There is absolutely no piece of tat.

that is not in an advent calendar this year. And I've given in, and I've bought the pork scratchings one for a loved family member. I can't do the beauty ones, actually, they're just a bit too much. And because all those little bottles around the house would drive me mad. That's unless we get sponsored by a company that's doing one of them. Obviously, in which case, will affect our fantastic new voices.

You know what I mean? But I think that somewhere in every single marketing, boardroom, meeting somebody, somebody at Screwfix is currently saying, do you know what? Next year, I think calendar. And that would be quite useful if you could have different rule plugs and different size screws. But I'd like to find the most random advent calendar out there. Is there a Screwfix advent calendar, young Eve? Because you can get cheese ones, coffee ones, gin ones, obviously all of the sweetie ones. What about feminine hygiene?

Well, that would be a good idea, wouldn't it? Yeah. Well, it would. I mean, there's not many novelties there in that department. No, but it'd be useful. And somebody will be thinking about it. Yeah, I guess. Let's try and find that. Weighing in the countryside is the one that I'm going to end on here. This one comes from Marion who says, regarding the women twitchers needing a pea.

I hope they take their wet tissues home with them. I'm tired of coming across tissues on my walks. I wrote to a British company who make outdoor clothing and suggested they make pockets in their knickers for this purpose, but I think they put my correspondence in the mad old woman section. We had pockets in our knickers at school in the 1960s for our tissues, I think, regards. Well, Marianne, it's not a bad idea. I'm with you out on the dog walks. There are way too many of those kind of tissues emerging from... Not very nice.

You know, Bush isn't on sidewalks. He's the American terminology. I don't know why. And that needs to stop. And I think that's quite a good idea. Right, Young Eve brings us news of the Halfords Advent Calendar. There you go! Halfords have got an Advent Calendar. It's got how many stars? What stars? What kind of things can you get in the Halfords Advent Calendar? What's the biggie on the 24th?

You'd get a bike. Yeah, what'd you get on the 24th? That's all the room, actually. Spinner handle. Spinner handle. Hang on, let's have a look. Right, she's not... She's not somebody like ourselves. Get festive. Okay, come somewhere. Get festive. With our advanced 40 piece, one and a quarter inch socket set.

Oh, nothing says Christmas like that. Advent Calendar. Half its Advent socket set advanced calendar is a fun way to give DIY and tool enthusiasts emphasis on the tool doing the most magical time of the year. The set comes with a storage case to keep all tools in place and safe. OK. I mean, I don't know why we're laughing, but we obviously are. Oh, that is fantastic. I'll tell you what.

You'd love it. You really would. Yeah, absolutely would. Couple of quickies here. Well, first of all, I met Sandra on the tube this morning. Hello, Sandra. I hope you're listening. She was on her way to work. She got off at Earls Court. I can't say what she does. She didn't tell me we didn't have time. Catherine says, I'm one of your American listeners. I am Welsh.

but moved here at the age of eight. Now, she describes her current situation as somewhat heavy. And I think that probably goes for quite a lot of people living in that part of the world right now. Heavy emotion, she says, I'm managing it by avoiding most news on just focusing on stuff that makes me happy. Right, well, keep listening. We'll do our very best to keep you on an even keel. And I just want to mention anonymous in Yorkshire who says,

Very pithily, just wanted to share that going through the menopause combined with trying to sell a house means I'm fraught as fuck, please send help. Right, yes Eve, we'll need a beep there. Well done. God, you must be and one of those things you'll pass through quicker than the other.

And good luck with both of them. Can I just say that I like Jane Morgan's very much? I'm just absolutely terrified of her. Just terrified of her. She's such a modern woman. She's very modern. She's very modern indeed. She had pleather shorts on yesterday. Well, yeah, I mean, exactly. I'm terrified of her. What the world doesn't need is me and pleather shorts.

But anyway, I should have put that fashion query to Lady Glenn Conner, isn't it? Is there any circumstance? For some reason, I'm suddenly thinking of an all-bar band. Is anybody else? G'day, Tim Williams here from Playbook 11. If you're interested in Dream 11 and want help picking your squad with expert Aussie insights we've got you covered. Form New Zealand international returns superstar Indian Premier League commentator Simon Dole

joins me to preview all five Australia V India Test this summer to boost your chances of winning your dream 11 contest. Can Virat wholly bounce back to form down under or will the Paste duo of Cummins and Start prove too fast to handle? With a history of fantasy cricket success, listen to the Playbook 11 podcast or watch our previews on YouTube via our Playbook 11 channel.

Joan on the trading holds a massive place of love and affection in so many people's hearts. She started writing songs when she was just 15 in her tea breaks during an office job in Birmingham at a factory that made spirit levels and slide rulers a job she had taken in order to support her family. But landing a role in a production of hair a couple of years later pushed her into the musical arena for real and the rest is glorious musical history. She is a million plus selling artist with top 10 hit spanning five decades

and her latest album is released on Friday and is called How Did This Happen and What Does It Now Mean? How Are You This Afternoon? I'm very good. I started writing before I was 15. I didn't start writing because I was working at Robon Chesterman. My mother bought a piano. I think when I was 11, 12, that kind of thing, I was writing a little short

limericks and I was writing jokes and funny stories and then as soon as my mum bought the piano

I started to write songs. So I tend to say I was writing songs from say 14, but really before then. And that's it. I just wanted to correct. Well, happy to be corrected, Joan. It's your life. What do you think that very young girl would make of your future success, of her future success?

Well, I'm still that very young girl and I would just take it on board. I don't think I'd be any different. You do seem to be, you do seem to be, Jonah, a remarkable figure in the music industry because, you know, I've heard you speak before, I've read interviews with you. You just don't seem to have anything like the ego that somebody with your success often has. Do you recognise that about yourself?

Oh, I've got an ego. I think I'm a really fantastic songwriter and guitarist and musician. So I have that. What I don't necessarily have is the look at me part. But I'd say probably a little bit of a big head when it comes to do I think I'm a good songwriter and musician? Yes, absolutely. And you need that. You need to have that confidence to be able to be good.

But how does it pan out then if you don't have the hey look at me thing? Because obviously your songs, they need performing. They benefit from being heard in public. They're beautiful songs. Yeah, I write from observation. And when I'm looking at certain things and I can feel the thing that I'm looking at,

whether it's people that I know, people that I don't know, but if I'm observing it, I can kind of see what's going on and feel the passion or the frustration or the anger of the thing that I'm looking at from the people that are involved.

And then I try and write from that perspective. So it's generally coming from something real. And when I'm singing it, I need to make you know that it's real. So I need to sing it with conviction. If you look at the song that's the single at the moment, which is, I'm not moving, it has an aggression to it because the thing that I was looking at, which was a young

person who was just having a bit of a meltdown and then he was saying I'm not moving and you can't move me and call the police and I'm going to kill everybody and really getting himself into quite a state and I was watching that and it had a lot of aggression so the music has to have aggression.

to portray that emotion that he was going through and this kind of one of my looking at thing that I was looking at. So you need to put it across. It's no good putting across and people think, oh, I don't really believe that. That's not what you want. You want them to believe it.

And tell us a little bit about the new album then. The title is intriguing. How did this happen and what does it now mean? Yeah, that's kind of where we are. We're at this default position of you can't talk to people in a certain way. You can't be a certain place. You can't do a certain thing.

It's the compromise of society seems to have just melted. We just don't seem to be able to just treat each other on a level that you say that. I don't agree, but it's your right to say it. I think this and it's my right to say it. We need to let people express themselves.

and be who they want to be. That's good, but don't stop people from commenting on something in a different way to you. So that's kind of one of the places where in that situation, politically, it's a little bit the same. Nobody seems to want to give way. And life is a series of compromises. We talk about being in a free society. You know, we're not free, right?

You know that, no, we're not free. When we do things, we have to obey certain rules. If you're driving on the left, don't start driving on the right. If you're in a country that says drive on the left, you're going to be had up. And so there are certain things that you've got to follow to make it good for everybody. So that's it. So this is what that title is about.

Can we kind of get back on to a bit more of an even key where it's all right to be different? It's all right to express yourself. It's all right to say certain things. You know, it's just get back on a bit more than even kill and know that you do have to compromise.

Is there any part of you though, Joan, that envies what some people feel is a better freedom for young people just because they have access to their own voice, to amplify their own voice in a way that previous generations don't have? And I know that at some points in your career

You've really had to fight against a pretty male-dominated music industry, for example, who didn't want to give you your freedom when you knew as the artist what you wanted. No, I've always had my freedom. I've always been able to express myself in the way that I want to musically. Nobody's ever stopped me.

doing the music that I want. I've always written and arranged my songs. Nobody's done that for me. I always know what I want. I don't feel the thing that you've just said. I think I'm supposed to because maybe at that stage, people would have gone through that. But I didn't. I'm quite a focused person. I'm quite a know what I want, know where I'm going, know who I am sort of person. So I don't take on those

those kind of kind of pressures. You know, if I, when I was first came into the business and I was playing the guitar, and if there was something I didn't want to, it didn't know on the guitar, and I would say to a male guitarist, how'd you do that? They'd say, oh no, you need to know this, this isn't this before we could show you this. It was fine. Don't show me. I'll sort it out. You know, so you can do things yourself. You don't need everybody to help you with everything.

You need help. Don't get me wrong. You can't do everything yourself. Literally, you can't do every single thing yourself. But there's a lot you can do for yourself. And I've always tried to be as self-sufficient as I can be. Without being selfish. But I find that very interesting, Joan, because I think, you know, I'm taking my questions from things that people have written in the past. And I suppose, are you saying that that's a narrative that people have wanted to put on you? They've wanted to portray you as a successful woman.

in a male-dominated industry, dominated at the top. I mean, there are some amazing female artists, obviously, and never more so than now. So if you felt that that's just something that people have wanted you to carry when it just hasn't been the truth at all. I've never... I haven't gone through this thing that you've just described. It may have been there, but I didn't go through it.

I nobody tried to suppress my music. If they did, I didn't notice because I was just doing what I was doing. Yeah, well, they didn't win, Joan, because you're Joan Armatry. They're a million selling artists. Can I ask you something that's just in the news at the moment? And I hope you won't mind me asking, did you sing on the original band aid single? No.

No, OK. So I can't answer any questions around that. OK. Would you rather that I didn't ask you a question about Ed Sheeran and his band-aid stance? I like Ed Sheeran. I think he's a really fine musician and a fine songwriter. He's really good. One of the nicest things I ever saw was watching a Glastonbury concert that he was doing. And this girl was sitting on her boyfriend, I suppose, shoulder. And she was in absolute heaven.

So she was young, but this is going back to like 18. And she was in absolute heaven and not crying, but all the emotion of, I love you, Ed was there. And I thought, well, that's a, that's a fan for life, absolutely. And

It's a very strong image that stayed with me because you could see all the love, all the, I think you're wonderful. I love your songs. I love you. I love how you play. I love that you've got me in this crowd with all these people. It's a wonderful thing to be able to get that kind of emotion out of somebody.

You know, it's really nice, so I love that, so it's very good. Yeah, it's a little bit of magic, isn't it? It really is. We have played during this programme, and I'm sorry that we haven't had time to play it now, but a little montage of some of your best and most loved work. And we've also included a bit of Symphony No. 1, which is your foray into classical music. Can we take from the fact that it's Symphony No. 1, that there will be more symphonies coming?

Yeah, absolutely, yes. I plan to write more. The Birmingham Symphony Orchestra came to that concert, which was last year, November, played by the Chinnaker Orchestra. And when I wrote that symphony, I just wrote it. I didn't. Nobody asked me to do it. I just wanted to write a symphony. But when the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra guys heard that, saw that, then they asked me to write a choral piece for them, which I've written, and that will be heard next year.

So I definitely will be writing more classical pieces. Joan, I'm a trading and you can access her latest album on any available platform. That's what we say, isn't it? On Friday, thank you. It's been very, very helpful during this edition of the podcast. We're very grateful to her.

Yeah, it was lovely to have Joan on, and it's not really relevant, but it was nearly somebody else who was a guest, and that other person who was nearly a guest, such a contrast to Joan. Oh, I think we can say, can't we? Vinnie Jones. What a leap. I tell you what, in the celebrity vending machine, one is at B2, and the other is at

F700, 100 trillion per cent sister. Thank you to Joan and perhaps Vinnie will meet him at some point. I tell you what, I'll keep the questions that I use for Joan. He does. He's yet to write a song on par with love and affection, but give him time. He's a man of many talents. That's what I say.

Can I just say thank you, not just for the emails, but for the quality. They're so beautifully written. We've had some humdingers over the last 24 hours, so we are very, very grateful. And we'll be back tomorrow. We'll be back tomorrow. I hope. And then on Friday, the book club podcast will drop. So thank you for all of your very, very thoughtful critiques.

of our latest book club book, and then we will start choosing the next one. But don't worry, we will give that such a long read time because we've got Crimbo in between now and then nobody has got time to read a book. OK, I'm not sure. I'm not happy with Crimbo. It's not as bad as Holly Bob's, but it's not excellent using it every day, kids.

Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off-Air with Jane and Fi. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.

Offer is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

This episode of Offer is brought to you by the new film Conclave, directed by Oscar-winning director Edward Berger and in cinemas on November the 29th. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. It is based on the best-selling book by Robert Harris, which I absolutely loved. And it tells the story of one of the world's most secretive and ancient events, selecting a new Pope.

It follows Cardinal Lawrence, played by Ray Finds, who is tasked with running this covert process, and he finds himself at the centre of a conspiracy and discovers a secret that could shake the very foundation of the church. And this is one you are going to want to see in the cinema. You're going to be on the edge of your seat with all its twists and turns, and an ending you never see coming.

You really won't. Can I just mention as well the incredible cast as well as Ray Finds? You've got Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow, Isabella Rossellini. It's also got brilliant reviews, critics hailing it as a masterpiece, so it's already got the Oscar and the BAFTA buzz. Do not miss Conclave, only in cinemas from November the 29th.

G'day, Tim Williams here from Playbook 11. If you're interested in Dream 11 and want help picking your squad with expert Aussie insights, we've got you covered. Form New Zealand international returns superstar Indian Premier League commentator Simon Dole joins me to preview all five Australia V-Indian tests this summer to boost your chances of winning your Dream 11 contest. Can Virat wholly bounce back to form down under? Or will the Paste duo of Cummins and Start prove too fast to handle? With a history of fancy cricket success,

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