I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if, say, you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that.
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I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look... yes, friendly, I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host, so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.
You know, there was this one time before I did my own money rehab when I tracked my credit score and I realized I had no idea what it actually meant for my financial future. That's when it hit me. It was time to get serious about my money. We've all had that moment, right? Whether it's saving for something big or finally paying off debt, we all get to a point where we need to make some real money moves.
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You can get boosts from friends to temporarily increase your spot-me limit. And when you help someone out with their own boost, they can return the favor. Friends helping friends make progress. It's that simple. So why not make your fall finances a little greener? Open your tram account in just two minutes at chime.com slash mnn. That's chime.com slash mnn. As in money news network. Chime feels like progress.
Banging services and debit card provided by the Bank Corp NA or Stride Bank NA, members FDIC. Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible chime members enrolled in Spot me and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab.
As you probably know, I also co-host a career advice podcast with the entrepreneur magazine editor and chief Jason Pfeiffer called Help Wanted. This week, while I'm out on Matt Leave, I'm sharing some of the episodes of Help Wanted that I think will be especially valuable for you, my dear money rehabbers. This episode is all about what to do when you feel stuck in your career. And it starts with someone from Jason's past. Here's the episode.
This is Help Wanted. The show that tackles all the big work questions you cannot ask anyone else. I'm Jason Pfeiffer, Editor-in-Chief of Entrepreneur Magazine. And I'm New York Times bestselling author and money expert, Nicole Lapin. The helpline is open. Nicole, do you stock any of your former colleagues? Like stock stock?
Not in a legal way, but you know that you pay attention to them on social. They don't know that you know what they've been up to for the last 20 years. Yeah, I mean, not like in a weird way. I also try to limit social media time. And I do generally think comparison is the thief of joy. But yeah, for sure, especially when you feel like you're in shitty places and I go like check out my ex boyfriends and they're like wives. We've all gone in the rabbit holes of people from yesterday year.
Yeah, and I think that what you just said there, the comparison is the thief of joy is perfect because that's exactly what can happen is that here you are, you were at the same moment in time as someone else and then paths diverged and it's so easy to look at what they did and maybe think, oh, did I make the wrong step? Like sliding doors, vibes.
career sliding doors. And that is exactly what we're going to hear today, because I got an email recently from a guy that I worked with at my first job 20 years ago, who I have not talked to since. And we're about to talk to him because he feels like he wishes he made some of the decisions that I made.
Little hit does he know you don't wish you made some of the decision Yeah, I don't think we're gonna get it to that but let's hear from him
Sean, here's the thing I wouldn't have said 20 years ago because it didn't exist 20 years ago. I don't think podcasting exists 20 years ago. Welcome to Help Wanted. Thank you, Jason. I've been talking to everybody I work with now, like how I'm going to be talking with a guy today. And 20 years ago, we were like almost the exact same position. We had both graduated from college. We're both starting our new career in the field of journalism at a small town newspaper.
But things have definitely taken different paths for us. How did we end up in such different ways? And that's not to say your way is much better than my way or that I'm unsuccessful. But there are things that I wish maybe I would have done differently. So my question is now, how could I catch up? I haven't made the best career decisions in the past. And some other things have happened that have kind of made it so that I'm not where I want to be as far as my career goes.
I really appreciate you reaching out and being that honest and vulnerable. And I think that what you're describing is something that a lot of people relate to. So you had originally reached out to me with a kind of summary of what had happened over the last 20 years. So why don't you share that with us so that we understand what you mean by you hadn't always made the best career decisions and where you are now so that we can start to talk through what matters to you and what to do next.
And also if you have any embarrassing stories about Jason along the way, please feel free to insert those. So if we go to the way back machine to the Gardener news 20 years ago, Jason and I were both young reporters. I felt pretty successful there. If you've had to pick the ace of the staff at the time, it was me over Jason. I agree. I covered city hall in our main city. I wrote massive amounts of stories.
Jason already had big eyes back then. This was his stepping stone for sure. For me, it was my hometown newspaper. I always kind of feel a connection with my employers, like a very loyal in that way. And I had like this idealist view of local journalism and the battle we're fighting and the public service that we're providing. I was happy to be a local news reporter because it was so important.
You were at the paper. You were very committed to it. At some point, you must have made a decision to leave because of some reason. Tell us like, why did you leave and what did you decide to do next? The primary reason was money. When I started at the newspaper, I think I made $10 an hour. This is 20 years ago. When I left, I think I was making $12 an hour and it just, it wasn't feasible.
So, like I said, I had a lot of relationships in the community from being a reporter, and one of those was at the police department, and they had openings for police dispatcher. And to me at the time, the pay, I think it was like 40,000, which was significantly more than I was making. And I liked the people there. I had a good relationship. I'm like, OK, I will do that. So I took that position. I worked overtime. I think I made $50,000 a year. To me, at that time, it was good money.
Yeah. You know, it's funny, Sean, just for what it's worth is that if we're tracking the two careers, I remember making $20,000 in that first job that you and I worked out together. And then my next job paid $40,000. So if you were getting 50, then your next career move was more financially savvy in a way than mine. Yeah. So I get the job of the police department. I immediately know I'm not doing this the rest of my life. It was very monotonous.
My favorite part of my job is I got to be an advisor for the Explorers Program, which was a program that taught law enforcement to local high school kids. I really like working with kids. And I said, I should be a teacher. In Massachusetts, you don't have to have a teaching degree. You just have to pass a test. There's two tests you have to take. I passed both of them and I have my teaching license.
I had a hard time finding a job for a while and eventually I found a non-traditional school. My salary is $30,000 a year. I went backwards, but I'm like, that's okay. I'm a teacher now. It will work itself out. I start to find a lot of success at my job.
A few years in, I get nominated for an award, a National Teaching Award. I traded an organic garden for my students. We called it the Fresh Start Organic Garden. It's amazing. And then the school was sold to another organization. The culture definitely changed.
Fast forward three years and I can't really do it anymore. The kids have changed and a former boss of mine is a principal at a public school and they had no opening and I applied for that job and I got it. The salary at that position was $63,000 a year. I'll just fill in because I know what happens next because you told me which is that you end up leaving teaching and then you became a paralegal.
you told me in your message to me that you were disappointed when after studying to be a paralegal and getting a job as a paralegal that it wasn't paying as much as you would hope that it would. So that's the moment that you're in right now is that you've made a shift, got into the arena, and then discovered that there wasn't as much money as you wanted.
Just to put a fine point on it, right now you said you're making $26 an hour, which I think translates to an annual salary of about $54,000 a year. Is that right? Yes. When you told me that you were a paralegal and that's what you were making, I went onto Google
And I just googled average paralegal salary in Massachusetts. The first thing that came up told me that the average paralegal salary in Massachusetts where you live is $58,000, which is not that far off from what you're making. Had you done any of that kind of research to know what you were getting into before you did it?
Not really. So this is my research is I talked to an uncle that I have when my career changers happening. He's actually, he's very smart. And he said, you know, what do you like doing? And we talked about things like doing and he goes, have you ever thought about being a paralegal? He says, I think they make like $75,000 a year.
And me, I said, well, he's very smart. You know what he's talking about. Yeah, but Sean, you're very smart too. And you are a journalist and you know how to use Google. Yeah. Is there like maybe some mental disconnect or is it like that you don't want to really know? In my mind, I always kind of find ways to justify like, well, if they're doing the average paralegal of Massachusetts and they're including Boston, and Boston's rates are going to be much higher than the rates in Worcester or the rates in Gardner.
That's fine. I'm not going to drive to Boston to be a paralegal because I'd be spending so much money on the commute and my quality of life would be less. Maybe I have a hard time thinking like, if I looked it up, is it going to be accurate for me?
Maybe, but that's also like, you know, people that don't step on a scale because they don't want to know like also maybe the scales messed up. Maybe it's on a slant or maybe it's like a weird scale or maybe it's a digital scale or I don't know. Maybe it's like that's not the real number or something like that. And so I think some of this stuff is just like the enemy between your ears or like maybe something that's keeping you from actually knowing the truth. And I'd love to figure out what that is.
Part of the reason maybe that I hold on to jobs is maybe some of that fear as well. Like, I definitely could have left my job at the private nonprofit school many years before I did. And I think part of it was maybe it was insecurity about, well, I didn't go to school for teaching. Am I going to be able to go to another school and be okay?
I wonder if part of the reason that you're doing this in the way that you're doing it is because of the fear of not having a plan and therefore feeling lost. Because what you have told us throughout this story of being a journalist and then being a police dispatcher and then being a teacher and then being a paralegal is that
It sounds like what you did was you felt like you needed something else, something presented itself, and then you just ran towards it, which is totally understandable because the alternative is to say, oh, no, I don't know what to do. And then spend a lot of time thinking about it and researching it and talking to people and marinating in this
lostness of not knowing where to go. And that is a hard place to be. An easier place to be is to say, ah, I'll go over there. And then, of course, the problem is that you discover what you didn't know when you're already there instead of before you went there. Does that resonate?
It absolutely does because I can even tell you, Jason, I went to school for one year to get my paralegal certificate because I had the opportunity to do so. I applied for jobs as soon as I finished. I took my second job offer and I did that because I'm scared. I need to get a job. And if we go way back, Jason, we talked about how our past diverged. I don't want to make a pity party for me, but I think our backgrounds are pretty different as well. I don't know your full background, but I know that you don't
Your parents seem to be okay. I think remember your dad's a dentist again. I don't want to know it's good memory. Yeah, I think that this is an important thing that you bring up that I know Nicole can speak very intelligently to so say what you're saying because you're right. So my dad passed away when I was 20 years old and my mom wasn't in my life.
So I was in college when my father passed away. My stepmother basically kicked me out of my house while I was still in college. Like I came home one weekend from college and she goes, your stuff's packed up. I don't know what you're doing, but you can't stay here. I was in a situation where I needed to have a job.
I needed to know what was going on because I didn't have a safety net where if I went a significant amount of time without working that I would feel like I'd be surviving. But I think that's a big thing. Like Jason, you maybe had more of an opportunity when we were starting out back then.
Hey, if I take a chance and something doesn't work out, I'm going to be OK. You are absolutely correct in that I grew up with two very supportive parents. My dad was a dentist, made good money. They did not roll out the red carpet for me on everything, but I knew that I could take risks in my career. And if something didn't work out, that I had a safety net.
That without question enabled me to act bolder than I know some other people were able to. So Nicole knows exactly where Sean is coming from. Let's connect on this. I would love to be adopted by Roy Pfeiffer as a euphifer clan. They are a fantastic family.
I also didn't have that. My father died of an overdose when I was 11. My mother pieced out. I had no safety net. I resonate with this story a lot. I felt like I never had a couch to go back to. There was no plan B. There was no option. There still isn't. And it still drives me and scares me. And so for me, the way I've approached it is that I have actually optimized more for money because I've had to.
And I've tried to go in saying that that is not a sellout, which is another episode of ours situation, but it's something that I need to get. It's not a nice to have. It's a need to have. And so I'm wondering, like, if we, you and I kind of had a similar start in life, I would say, is that fair? Yeah. And I also started in journalism and quickly realized that you can't make money there.
But beyond that, I think that the next moves were driven by the necessity to take care of myself. So I'm curious, when you started talking with others, did you ever just sit with yourself and say, what did you want to do?
Yeah, I mean, I'm not afraid to follow the things that I want to do. So actually, when I started in college, I was a business major and I started working at the college newspaper, like in the business office and they wanted to start a business page. And I said, I'll do it, even though I didn't study journalism. And I really liked it. And then so I added journalism as my second major. And I was actually still in college when I pretty much started working full time at the Gardner news.
I was a correspondent, but I was doing four or five stories a week while I was still in school. I'm also very much like, I see something new that I like and I'm all about it, but I can easily burn out. Things catch my eye and it's like, well, man, I want to do that now. That's also hurt me in my career because I think about
I don't want to get sidetracked. But my wife, who I love dearly, she did not go to college, but she's bright. She got a job at a corporation when she was 20 years old. She's worked at that corporation since then. She's a mid-level manager now and she makes like $70,000 a year. And it only happened because she stuck with it.
I think that you are looking back at yourself somehow beating yourself up, which you shouldn't at all. You've had a very colored career that every step of the way sounds like you were really passionate about. So you're judging yourself by something you didn't optimize for at the time.
So you're being too hard on yourself for that. Like throughout your career, it sounds like you didn't optimize for money, right? But now you're looking back and you're saying, well, like, I wasn't successful because I didn't make a lot of money. But that wasn't the driving force of your moves. That's true. You're judging yourself for metrics. You didn't even know at the time. That's not fair to Sean. Let's be nicer to Sean.
Even now, I'm super proud of my current position. So Jason, we talked about how I told you I make $26 an hour now. I started here less than three years ago and I started $19 an hour.
It's great progress. As we're eventually going to talk about how to think through what may be your next career change and what you want to do, do you have a number in your head of what you want to reach? Because Sean, I will tell you, Nicole and I both experienced this and continue to experience it, which is that no matter what your accomplishment is and no matter how much money you make, it suddenly does not seem like enough because there's always more that you could get. So at some point you have to know what you're actually aiming for. Do you have that in your head?
I think I like to make like $100,000 a year. Okay. Okay. I'm happy with everything about my job, except to money. You've now switched and you said, here's my goal. It's $100,000. Your goal in the past when you were coming up in your career in your twenties was not that you didn't have that goal. And so now you're switching. So let's say, okay, let's appreciate our former self or what he did. He did an awesome job. He did the best we could with the information he had. And now moving forward, we have like a different goal.
The point that Nicole is making is that you can't tell this negative story of yourself where the punchline of it is and now you're stuck or now you've wasted so much time. Rather, everything that you did served some kind of purpose. You were pursuing passions. You were interested in things. You learned a lot about what you want and what you don't want.
It now informs the next decisions that you make. The question now is, starting from right now, what do we do? Stick around. Help Wanted will be right back.
Welcome back to Help Wanted. Let's get to it. Now I want to think through how you make more money. When you reached out, part of your wonder was, is it time to just make another career change? Just do something totally different again. And look,
Maybe it is if you want to totally just optimize for money, but also before you do that, I would want to step back and say, all right, what do I have here in the world of paralegal? Can I look around and see what other paralegals are making and where and what it takes to get there? Maybe some sacrifices do have to be made. You, for example, said that you don't want to drive into Boston, but maybe if you start pushing yourself closer to Boston and taking a longer commute,
it translates into more dollars and ultimately the balance there is better. Or maybe some of the skills that you've picked up in paralegal work actually translate really well to some adjacent field that doesn't require a full reboot of what you do, but that ultimately does pay better or gives you access to better paying employers or something like that. So have you looked into any of that? I have not. I mean, I find it very helpful to make a shaded part of a Venn diagram.
What do you do? What can you do? What are the skills you have? What are the opportunities have? And what do you want? And there's always going to be a shaded part. And if now what you want is money. What are the high paying things that combine your skills? Is it teaching other paralegals? Is it making a class or writing about it or something? Like, can you smush all of the things you have for the highest salary possible? Have you thought of that?
No, so thank you. You're welcome. Let's think about it. Nicole makes an excellent point. You know how to do a lot of different things. The story of your career is actually one of accumulating a lot of skill sets. And you haven't actually stepped back and said, how do these things snap together in a way in which they're all useful? I'm proud of something I should be doing. Let's snap it together.
I love writing. I like teaching. I do like imparting my knowledge and others. And I don't know if that's different than teaching. I don't want to get into semantics. It's different teaching children, I think. Teaching adults is a different thing, especially if they have the desire to learn. Maybe I've always not wondered, like, are people going to want to hear what I have to say? Would they value what I have to teach them? I guess is
Again, this goes back to not sticking out things for very long. Like I can't say, Sean has been a paralegal for 20 plus years. Come learn from him.
Sean, here's something that I think you should do. You should look around and see what problems you can solve for people. Perhaps part of the reasons that you feel insecure is because if you don't know the problems that you can solve for people, then all you're doing is showing up and demanding their attention. And you don't know if they're busy or if they have a need or why they would care about you. But if you know the problems that you can solve,
Then suddenly you see a role for yourself. So what would a problem be that you can solve? I don't know that much about the legal world, but I do know this because I've heard it from friends who are lawyers or who work in law firms that
lawyers do not know how to write in a way that is not a complicated legal brief. They struggle with communication. And communicating in a way that is not a legal brief is an important thing that people need to know how to do. And that includes lawyers. And that's the reason why a lot of law firms actually hire outside consultants to teach their lawyers how to write like regular human beings.
Now, here is you, someone who has worked professionally as a communicator in a plain English kind of way, who also has developed the skills of a teacher to teach skills to other people. And you are sitting in a law firm, or you're at least sitting in an industry, I can't speak to your specific firm. These are people who are
probably very aware that a shortcoming of theirs is their ability to communicate in a non-legal way. Now we have identified a problem and you as a solution, and it might be worth even just volunteering or coming up with some kind of system or something that you can introduce
at your firm, see if people like it, maybe you become much more valuable there. Maybe you take on a totally different role there. Maybe you create a whole department there. Or maybe you become really valuable in a way that they love but aren't going to pay you for. But now you have something that you can take somewhere else and say, ah, I am doubly valuable. I'm a really good paralegal. And also I run this program teaching the lawyers how to write. And now somebody is going to pay you a lot more. That is how you take
somebody's problem and connect it to the snapping together of the skills that you have accrued.
I really like that idea. The law firm here is part of an organization that does like seminars and things for lawyers. And during the seminars, they always have people that present their products and things like that. And I could picture myself presenting my products like how to write like a human, how to communicate effectively with your clients, you know, or even developing templates that explain processes, you know, like you're getting divorced. Here's what to expect.
Totally. And by the way, one of my favorite online shopping sites these days is Fiverr and Upwork. I love these marketplaces where I can find a bunch of really easy freelancers who can do things for our business.
And as I was looking for writers on there, actually, I saw a lot of offerings for freelance writers who were specializing either in business or in law who could write these articles that I've actually stumbled upon recently because I've been searching like, how to make a convertible note for an LLC or something like that. And so all these like random law firms in like Wisconsin or wherever, like have an article
I'm not writing it. I'm sure they outsource that to some writer on Fiverr like you could be who has a particular expertise in some area. And they're now using that to put on their website to optimize for SEO and all this other fun stuff to get customer acquisition.
Theoretically, I could do that while still being committed to my current job. It's something that you can start and then see how it goes. And maybe it turns out that it's wildly successful and I don't need to be a paralegal, but maybe it doesn't. And it just means it's a way that I can get to that number that I need to be at.
You haven't quite figured out how to make the boundaries of what you think work are more flexible. I realized that getting ahead and making the kind of money that I wanted required doing multiple kinds of work at the same time.
The Gardener News was the only job, that first job that we worked out, the only job I ever worked at where I just did that job. After that, I have always, including right now, freelanced on the side of whatever full-time job that I had, always. Yeah. And that was where my extra income came from. And that's where my advancement opportunities came from, because that's what got me in front of the next set of people that were going to create the next set of opportunities. Do you know how many streams of income the average millionaire has, Sean?
I do not. It's seven. People who have money don't make money from their paycheck. There are a lot of streams of income for people who have a lot of money. Now, some of it can be passive income, some of it can be investment income, some of it can be freelance income, all sorts of different kinds of income to cobble together to make a lot of money because very rarely do rich people make their money from like a W-2.
And that is available to you.
to where we are here today is because in all of these cases, the answer doesn't start externally. It's not just about make this one other decision. It's internal. The work has to start internally, which is why what we did is we spent a lot of time trying to understand what your goals were and what your skills are and where your interests are and then what matters to you. Because once you know that, you can start to construct an actual answer. I appreciate it.
And I would just say, if you are looking for some hot new thing, which probably is like AI related, right? And you tell us like, I'm obsessed with AI. My wife and I just play with chat GPT all weekend long. I don't know. Then cool. Like let's also dig into that. That doesn't sound like you're saying that. It sounds like you're saying I've loved all of the things I've done, right? And now I just want to figure out how to smush them together and make some money. That's exactly it.
Are we going to sign up for Fiverr tonight? Maybe I'll hire you. I've never heard of it. So I have to go look. What? Fiverr.com. F-I-V-E-R-R and Upwork. Okay. Let's end with an embarrassing story about Jason. So Jason, I heard an episode called, please go and you're talking about, you know, the way you get started was coming up with basically inventing memes and you talked about your Twitter, the Twitter thing to selfies at funerals and stuff like that.
Yeah. If we go way back, what I remember you getting your start with was scamming the scammers and your original website way long ago, the thing that drew me to your creativity was this month's long conversation you had with a man from Nigeria. Oh, yeah.
about his sister and how you couldn't wait to get pictures of her and like you're so thankful that he was going to give you his sister as a bride. Yes. You had this thing on your web page and it was like 50 pages long back and forth with this guy from Nigeria and you were proud of this. Like you had this was a primary thing on your website.
I was very proud of it. They're called 419 scams, those Nigerian 419 scams, whereas somebody emails you and they tell you that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and all you need to do is help them get there. The whole thing is to scam you into trusting them so that you will send them money. But this means that this
asshole wherever they are in the world is also if you know that they're scamming you is really now your plaything because you can just create increasingly ridiculous and complicated demands of them and they'll play along because they think that they're leading you to the scam and so that's what I did with this guy for who knows how long.
He promised me his sister. He sent me some photos of a woman who may or may or may not be. But I'm not still in touch with the sister. Let's just be very clear. Yeah. And then I put it all on the internet and it was a lot of fun. And you're probably the only person in the world who still remembers it, but I touch that you do. Now everyone knows about it. Yeah. But you know what? I didn't make a single dime off of that thing.
Help Wanted is a production of Money News Network. Help Wanted is hosted by me, Jason Pfeiffer. And me, Nicole Lapin. Our executive producer is Morgan Levoy. You want some help? Email our helpline at helpwanted at moneynewsnetwork.com for the chance to have some of your questions answered on the show. And follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive content and scare beautiful things. Maybe a little dance? Oh, I didn't sign up for that. All right, well, talk to you soon.
