How To Help Children Thrive in the Age of Uncertainty w/ Dr. Tovah Klein
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January 30, 2025
TLDR: Podcast features Dr. Tovah Klein discussing her research on child development, emphasizing the importance of being a safe anchor for kids, providing them safety in difficult moments, accepting them as they are, and always being there for them.

In this episode of the Psychology Podcast, Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman hosts Dr. Tovah Klein, a renowned child development expert at Barnard College. Their conversation dives deep into the nuances of supporting children in the unstable world we live in today, especially during their worst moments.
Key Takeaways from Dr. Klein's Research
Being a Safe Anchor:
- Parents should be seen as a "safe anchor" for their children.
- It's crucial to provide unwavering support, acceptance, and safety during tough times.
- Dr. Klein emphasizes that being present and accepting children for who they are, especially in difficult moments, is essential for emotional security.
The Incubator of Resilience:
- Developing resilience in children begins with the parent-child interaction that acts as an incubator.
- A secure base allows children to explore their environment safely and helps them bounce back from adversity.
Parental Buffering:
- The relationship between parents and children significantly influences a child’s ability to withstand traumatic events.
- When parents provide emotional support and understanding, it significantly impacts a child’s resilience during crises.
Understanding Trauma and Recovery
Childhood Trauma and Its Effects:
- Dr. Klein shared insights from her research after the events of 9/11, illustrating how children process trauma and create narratives of safety despite distressing situations.
- Positive findings showed that children could internally process events to highlight safety, underscoring resilience.
Resilience Through Community:
- Trust and community support are vital for parents to recover from stress, which directly impacts their ability to support their children.
- Maintaining a network of support enhances parental vulnerability, emphasizing the need for connection among caregivers.
Five Key Strategies for Parenting
Dr. Klein outlines five essential strategies in her book "Raising Resilience," which are crucial for not only children but also for adult well-being:
- Learning to Trust:
- Establish emotional safety by validating children’s feelings and assuring them you are there for them.
- Learning to Regulate:
- Help children understand and accept their emotions to regulate their reactions.
- Developing Agency:
- Allow children to explore their environment while setting limits, as this builds a sense of autonomy.
- Connecting with Others:
- Foster social interactions, emphasizing that having one close friend can be more beneficial than many acquaintances.
- Loving Oneself:
- Encourage children to accept themselves for who they are, which lays the groundwork for self-esteem and reduces the likelihood of shame.
The Importance of Humor
- Dr. Klein concludes that maintaining a sense of humor within the family dynamic is vital in helping children navigate life’s challenges.
- Humor can ease tensions and foster open communication, enabling children to feel secure in expressing their emotions.
Final Thoughts
Dr. Tovah Klein's insights provide parents with a toolkit for raising resilient children amidst uncertainty. By being a nurturing presence and helping children develop their emotional landscape, parents can equip them to thrive in a complex world.
This episode serves as a valuable resource for caregivers looking to enhance their parenting skills and optimize their child's emotional growth. Dr. Klein’s combined expertise and heartfelt approach remind us that fostering resilience starts right at home.
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called Jefferson. Listen to many questions on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers. When I was in college, I lived in a big dorm, like there were probably 30 of us on one very long haul one bathroom. I don't know how we did it. And at the end of the year, we had like a pizza party. We're all freshmen. And it was all women on that floor. It was like male, female by floor.
And they went around, people went around and said, let's talk about first impressions, you know, or first impressions. People were laughing and they said, who did we get the most wrong? And then everybody seemed to agree, Tova, we got Tova the most wrong. And I was totally taken aback. I said, why? They said, we all thought you were kind of standoffish and snobby. And I was like, really? Why? And they said, because it took us time to learn that you spent a lot of time kind of watching
just watching before you kind of started to befriend us and go along with us. And I thought, oh yeah, that's not been my whole life.
Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we share with you the latest science of human potential from scientists who are doing cutting edge research that can help you self-actualize and realize the best version of yourself. I'm Dr. Scott Barry-Coffman, a cognitive scientist, author, coach, and public speaker on human potential. In this episode, we have Barnard College Professor Dr. Tova Klein on the show.
Dr. Klein is director of the Barnard College Center for Toddler Development, where she aims to understand children's social and emotional development, parental influences on children's development, and experiences that parents have raising children. In this episode, we discuss her groundbreaking research and new book, Raising Resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty.
A key takeaway of this conversation is the importance of being a safe anchor for your children and conveying to them that you are there for them no matter what, that you accept them whoever they are and that you can provide a sense of safety even in their worst moments. This episode has a number of really key insights and actionable takeaways as a parent to be a good parent and also to be an emotionally secure adult. So without further ado, I bring you Dr. Tova Klein.
Dr. Klein, welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Well, thank you. I'm excited for you to be here. You've had such a long and very notable career. Tell me a little bit about some of the highlights. So you were a director of a child development lab at Barnard College, Columbia, right? Yeah. I've been at Barnard College now for 29, going up 30 years. Wow.
And I run a program called the Center for Tyler Development. I'm a professor in psychology. So I feel like I've had it all. It's actually been the beauty of my career is that I get to be with toddlers and observe them every day, probably thousands at this point. And I get to be with college students. So as you know, teenagers, to young adults, I have parents, a wonderful staff. So I have like a whole range
of people and I get to do like everyday development and I get to do the other piece of sort of my life on the clinical psych side is more traumatic events and real significant life stressors that people experience like that.
That's what puts you together. Yeah. It's been a big part of what you're known for. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because you spent even going back to 9-11, right? Didn't you study? One of the classic studies that we all learned in intro to site class, you know, you learned about, you know, the impact of that on people's memories and their traumatic, you know, their trauma, right?
Yes, I did a study after 9-11 of young children who had witnessed, been witnessed to the towers, to the garage group. So these were all children under five, the oldest were six, so six and under. And it really came out of my training in graduate school was heavily in child trauma and adult trauma. And there I was running the center and I was a new mom.
What did I have? I had a one and a half and a three-year-old, and I was a professor at Barnard, and then 9-11 happened, and it really came out of that kind of collegial. I had met this woman. She did a lot of work in trauma at Columbia in the School of Social Work, and we called each other and just said, what are we going to do? What are we going to do for those families? And that's how it started, and we went down
about six weeks after the collapse and started doing focus groups with families to say
Can you tell us what you witnessed, what happened, and what was it like for your children? That was our question. And then interestingly, there was, you know, as research goes, there were a lot of researchers wanting to do research in New York City, and we met, you know, in a group of people who wanted to study children, we didn't want to overwhelm families, and repeatedly people said to us, oh, you want the children under six, they're all yours. We're not interested. And that's the big gap in the literature. So we then did a study of the younger children now.
Yeah, and it was just fascinating. What's some of the main findings? Well, I'm going to stress the positive findings because what your podcast is, but also my work and my frame on things, which is I was very interested in how children create safety because, yeah, it was a horrible thing to witness, right? I mean, it was scary and adults were scared, but you know what? They all got to safety.
They were all okay, at least physically. And I was very interested in the children who within time, not that they were, life was perfect, but were able to like get grounded again and the parents were able to, no matter how hard it was. And so we did play interviews with the children where we gave them blocks and we had to give them airplanes and ambulances, but we also gave them animals so they could play with whatever they wanted. And we asked them very open-endedly,
Can you show us what you saw that day or what happened? We used whatever terms the parents used, like maybe they called it the big fire or the sad day. We just followed whatever the parents had told us. The children had already said, so we weren't introducing anything new. And on the one hand, children would tell us, people were hurt, people died. On the other hand, they would very much tell us, people were safe. They would build these buildings. It was incredible. They would build buildings and then they'd take their hands and they'd go,
Oh, this is a safe building. It's low. And then they'd take a plane and they'd say, oh, yeah, it's safe. And then we might say, well, oh, so who is in that building? Oh, the people in the big buildings, they ran to the safe buildings. So the more I saw children creating safety, the more I thought, I wonder how this happens. Because that's what you need to survive. It's not that bad things aren't going to happen. They are going to happen. That's a guarantee in our lives, in our children's lives.
But the question is how do you get re-grounded and know that you can be safe even when the world is not feeling so grounded at the moment. What do you think of George Benano's research and resilience? He finds that people tend adults tend to be a lot more resilient than they think they're going to be. Do you find that same thing with young children?
Well, you know, it's interesting you ask that because I have doubts more about parents. So, and you probably know in the trauma literature, people who are caregivers, so that could be parents of children or maybe somebody who's got some disability or sick or elders under really stressful or traumatic conditions, you know, situations, they're going to suffer more.
And it makes sense, like to get out of a burning building for myself is one thing, but to get out with somebody who's in a wheelchair or who's bed bound is a really like next level responsibility. And that's what parents are. And so in ways they're much more vulnerable because they're not only responsible for themselves, they have people dependent on them.
On the other hand, I think what we find over and over is that if they have community, if they have people to turn to, they can recover more than we give them credit for. And the reason that children can do okay is that parents buffer. That's so much what my new book is about, right? What is this buffering that parents do naturally?
And so that's, I think, the positive. And the book really came out of this idea that the world's going to always be answered. I mean, uncertainty is here. Yes. Right? But what's the strength that can come of it when children, whether they're two or 12 or 18, when they have somebody to ground them, I call it anchoring.
and being a container. So, you know, when you're not alone and you build that sense of, I'm not alone. This is hard, but I'm not alone. That really propels children forward. And we know it propels our teenagers forward too. Like they push away, get out of here. I hate you. They don't say it nicely. And then, hey, you there.
because I'm upset and I want you to listen for a while. So, you know, it's really about studying parents, I think. And I think banana's work is really important that, you know, with the right supports in place or with the right in a trust, resilience is definitely possible. And that's what parents are building every day. Yes, you call it an incubator. Yeah. Yeah.
You said there are two aspects of resiliency, and the one is the parent-child relationship incubator. Central find the second one in that chapter. Well, what I talk about is that the parent-child interaction, beings with this incubator every single day, typical interactions.
have this, they call anchoring, that's the like, I'm your secure base, right? And then this container, I can handle your emotions. You can show me, yeah, yeah, you can show me you're good, you're bad, you're rotten, you name it, and I'm going to be able to handle it. Gotcha. Right. And I'm not going to be afraid of it. I'm not going to shame you. I'm not going to scream at you. There may be some limits on be, you know,
can't really kick me or all the furniture, but we can go outside and you can find something to kick. So it's that idea of being their base, that anchor for them that really matters.
gotcha. I want to talk back to trauma for a second, you know, the long lasting effects of trauma, especially in childhood. How robust is that correlation, you know, between childhood trauma and the way it affects your brain and the way that you process the world as an adult? How strong is that correlation, really? Well, it can be very strong if a child, for example, is not believed. Let's say it's
you know, some kind of abuse, sexual abuse, or just bad things happen that people want to quickly brush under the carpet, even if they're known. So what we know is that when children aren't believed, they're not listened to, they're not supported. Anytime we have to keep something in a secret, it's potentially going to bubble up because it's there.
It's really there. And I have to say, I almost got into my interest in child trauma. I always had that, you know, we didn't call it trauma. We said abuse or violence or when bad things happen. But because in graduate school, I worked with adults who were coming with this set of behaviors or problems that they were reporting that turned out to be really related to their childhood traumas.
And they didn't have support to process them. So you can still do that as an adult. But if the stories you're told and the stories you have to tell yourself, force you to push this thing aside, then children often feel bad. They feel responsible. I must be really bad. I must be a terrible person. And so you can then rework that as an adult, but someone has to listen to you and understand you that
while complicated and that's a piece of you. Just one piece.
And then I'm fascinated with all the research on attachments, attachment patterns. And there's no sort of debate, what do we call these things? They're on styles, they're all on continuums and then our Chris Fraley's research, you know, yeah, just showing that like, there's no such thing as a securely attached person. It's, we're all just like on a continuum of the two axes avoided and anxious.
and we're just secure to the extent to which we score low in these two dimensions of personality. Because you do work on attachment and you've thought a lot about that. What is that correlation? Because I've seen some research showing it's a lot weaker than childhood attachment patterns and adult attachment patterns are a lot weaker than people tend to think. There's not a great continuity there. What do you find in your research?
Yeah. So, you know, it's an interesting question because as you know, something goes from the research realm to a popular realm and there's often interpretations that I would let's call them loose. Right. Researchers were doing that original research in a very scientific experimental paradigm. People still do, but then it springs into our more common knowledge.
And I think both gets watered down and maybe misunderstood. So if you look at like the longitudinal studies, like you take strokes work, you know, really important work followed a very high risk, potentially cohort of children and families living in pretty low and common poverty situations, he followed them over a long time. And he finds that secure base is very important. So having that security of attachment,
But what I think it gets misinterpreted is this idea that, well, however attached you are at a year when that's measured is life, where relationships are dynamic, relationships shift. And so what we do is we say, oh, today's not a good day. That's not a secure attachment. And that's just not how it works. It really is about, do I have a caregiver, particularly for younger children?
Do I have a caregiver who I can trust? Gets it right a good amount of the time, shall we say? Not perfect. None of us are nor should we be. For sure. Right? But then I can internalize the sense of me as a very young child as I'm a good person. I'm okay. I'm gonna be okay in the world. And that then keeps getting reinforced over time in other relationships.
Um, but it starts as a base. And again, you can go back and correct that base. So I think those are some of the misnomers that people have like, this is a static thing and relationships aren't static. And nor are we as people, because if we were none of us would go to therapy, why would we bother or say, Oh, we're doomed. Yeah. And we're not doomed. You know, we're always works in progress and children are too.
Yeah, I mean, your, your, your work has touched so many parents. And even I believe Amy Schumer, you've touched as well. Right. How does that happen? Yeah. Well, during the pandemic, um, so our program, which is for, you know, one and a half to three year olds, well, first we went on Zoom, which I never really thought we could do, but we did our teachers were fantastic. We did this fantastic, very emotionally connected program with the children.
And then we opened in the fall of 2020 on Barnard's beautiful campus when Barnard was closed. So no students, almost nobody except some facilities people, some security people in the Barnard toddler center and a beautiful tent outside. And she was one of the parents who had signed up for that year and came. I see, interesting. So we had about total just 10 children at a time to move different groups.
We had about 40 families that year because I thought, who would trust their child in the fall of 2020 to a program? But for this group of families, people were like, Hey, I need to get out. If you remember how closed in we were at that point. I do, yes. And my child needs to be with other children that much on needs to be out of the house. And we were outside and we were masked, which seems crazy now because these are little kids. And so she, she and her husband and child came for that program and we
have stayed in touch, you know, as he's gotten older. And like many of the relationships that come out of my work, they just, you know, they go a lifetime. And she offered, she and I was writing a book. She actually said, I nominate myself to write the forward. And I was like, seriously, and then she was like, oh, you didn't ask for nominations.
But, you know, when I went back to her and said, were you serious? She said, absolutely. That's so funny. Yeah. I mean, she's made it public that her husband's on the autism spectrum. So obviously I want to ask, like, if their child seems to be neurodiversity. All I can say is he's a great kid. And, you know, that year, I'm so grateful to any parent who believed in us that year, you know, Amy and 39 other families, like, um, and all the children separated eventually that we
You know, our philosophy is that you have parents there and then you have them slowly move back. And I said to my program director, I was like, how are we going to separate people in a pandemic who've been huddling at home? Yeah. But we did it and we always sort of cue into the child. Like, what does the child mean? I can take a crying parent out or an upset parent, but I want to hopefully figure out what a child needs. And every, every child was able to separate and play and be friends and
That class, actually, that she was in, they still get together. A group of them, like six or seven of them. And I think, you know, that's partly the work of our center and much the work of people in the pandemic came together. And it was scary. And they state that they've stayed friends. It's wonderful.
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I am very, my own research is on neurodiversity, so I'm just curious how many kids that you've worked with in the center that you run are neurodivergent and sort of how do you deal with that any differently than others in your child development? So, I mean, let's face it, toddlers are neurodivergent. By nature. Yes, as an age group.
We say we have a very wide range of what we would say. I've seen that before, or that's not e-typical, right? Because as you know, we live in a world where we, you know, whether it's teachers or psychologists, which we are, or
Other professionals tend of a very narrow view of what's like okay or normal or typical. And I would say we've got a pretty broad view on that. But when I'm concerned about a child really not showing progress or in some way, you know, after they separate, am I seeing movement forward?
We meet with parents, just say, look, this is what we're seeing, are you concerned? And if they're not, then I would say to them, in a three's program, just keep your eye on this. Now, if I think a child is autistic, not autism spectrum disorder,
some other sort of lesser thing, but I will say to parent, you know, I think the sooner that we get a kind of understanding of this and the sooner you get help, that's what the data shows us. So I sometimes push parents, but two year olds are so all over the place and they start to come together as they get old, come together meaning those very vastly varied behaviors.
or development, you know, whether it's language development, social development tends to narrow as children get older. So on the one hand, we know that earlier you intervene for certain children the better. And on the other hand, lots of children sort of get on a path. So it's always a little tricky. Like, is this something we should be concerned about? Or is this who this child is and they're going to
you know, walk a path that works. And so it's, it's a little of both. People, some parents can be very quick to medicate. Yeah. At a very, very young age. And that's a whole can of where, you know, very much, particularly in those early elementary years, you know, I do private work with parents and they're often hearing from schools, particularly private schools. Well, if he's really not going to be on medication,
It's probably isn't the right school for him. You know, then I will work with him around, well, you know, is it that it's not the right school and do a little look for something else? Or do you want to medicate a six year old and eight year old? Yeah, I mean, we live in a culture certainly that is quick to medicate. And I think if we could reframe things a little and say, well, what kind of environment would really support this child's creativity?
curiosity. I tell people often about a child, well, if you were raising her on a farm, all would be well. I mean, imagine you'd get up. There'd be all those chores. There'd be the animals. She could run with the horses. And they say, yeah, but we're not raising her on a farm. And I say, I know, but do you want to like try to figure out what she needs to be her? Or do you want to go this other route? And it's hard to know sometimes what's
The right thing, I just always wish people would have a broader perspective on what is someone's strengths and how can we build an educational environment around that and not be so quick to judge. We covered neurodiversity a little bit, but I'm also really interested in highly sensitive children. And I'm wondering how much you've interacted with that literature. And do you clearly notice it in some kids, like that they have that temperament?
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, some, I think you see this often in children at all ages who, you know, somebody says, oh, they're very reticent or they're shy or whatever label that, you know, again, we're quick to put labels.
And I'm always saying to my students, watch that child who you think is shy or whatever inward in some way. And I want you to describe to me what you see in that child. And they'll say, this is really hard to do because you have to really then cue in to how are they not just where are they looking, but how are they looking? Where is their body moving even in little ways? Like, I think we have to be more sensitive.
But often I find those are the children who the parents then tell me at home. Oh, yeah. He comes home and he sings every song. He literally mimics the teachers. Every movement of theirs remembers every detail of every child, right? They're taking in a lot.
And the younger you are, the more overwhelming that is, right? So it's not even peer pressure yet. It's just, whoa, my brain is still really new in this world. And that's a lot. And so I think of it as, again, you know, well, where are good environments for that child and where not probably going into a big birthday party is not the best thing. One of my children was like this. And at some point we were like, well, maybe going to birthday parties is not a good thing for him.
So I think for the highly sensitive children, again, you know, sometimes the label helps. Sometimes it helps an older child to know, well, something wrong with me. I am this sort of, you know, whether it's autism, high sensitivity. Oh, I'm not alone. I'm not wrong all the time, but it's really looking for ways to say, how do we support this child?
give them other people who understand them, whether that's peers, teachers, because I think we're quick to blame and shame, not purposefully. I don't think parents or professionals want to do that, but that's what we end up doing accidentally.
But if that can be really hurtful, the younger the child, the more it's going to be embedded within them. And the more sensitive they are. The more sensitive they are, the more they withdraw, right? I mean, I was an extraordinarily observant child.
And I think it's why I got into this field. And I used to think to myself, the adults just don't get children. They just don't. But I would push myself out. You thought of that when you were a kid? You thought that? I can remember thinking the adults don't get it. They just don't get it. And like, oh, but I accepted it. As a child, I kind of accepted it. Like, that's just how it is. It was as I got older than I was like, wait a minute.
There are adults who get us. And I was always watching, always watching. Yeah, to the point that, I think funny, when I was in college, I lived in a big dorm, like there were probably 30 of us on one very long haul, one bathroom. I don't know how we did it.
And at the end of the year, we had like a pizza party where all freshmen and it was all women on that floor. It was like male, female by floor. And they went around, people went around and said, let's talk about first impressions. You know, what were our first impressions? People were laughing and they said, who did we get the most wrong? And then everybody seemed to agree, Tova, we got Tova the most wrong. And I was totally taken aback. I said, why? They said, we all thought you were kind of standoffish and snobby.
And I was like, really? Why? And they said, because it took us time to learn that you spent a lot of time kind of watching, just watching before you kind of started to befriend us and go along with us. And I thought, oh, yeah, that's not been my whole life. Are you an introvert? I think, aren't we all a mix?
No. As a personality psychologist, I'll say there's some that are extreme. Most of us are mixed. I would say then you really do have in the bell curve, you know, you do have the 2% that are obviously either extrovert or introvert. I'm definitely a mix. I mean, I can be very social. I love to be with people when I want to be. Yeah.
And I like a lot of time. I'm an introvert when I don't want to be with someone. Yeah, exactly. So I pull back. That's my nature. And that was eye opening for me though, because I thought, Oh, I need to like be aware of that. I don't want people to think I'm being mean or standoffish. So I kind of became aware of that and
Again, that's a big piece of my new book, Raising Resilience, is like, how do parents get to know themselves so they can know their own reactions to their children? Because the better we know ourselves, the more clearly we can see our children. Yeah, definitely. And that can be hard. It's hard to look at ourselves and shed our vulnerabilities and
radical self honesty is not done from naturally to people. No, you have to get through a lot of sort of icky and shame and like to say, yeah, you know, that is me. That is me.
Sure. You have these five, you five something pillars. Yes. You have these five pillars in your book, the strategies, strategies, learning to trust, learning to regulate developing agency, connecting to others and loving oneself. These are great strategies for adults. Right. And children, children become adults. Hopefully. So we have a lot of man babies.
existing in the world right now. What is the female version of that too? Women babies. But that aside, that aside. Let's talk about the first one, learning to trust. How can parents provide greater emotional safety for their children? I think a big part of this across the ages
is when parents start to say to themselves, what does it mean? Ask themselves this question, what does this mean to tune into my child? Again, not perfectly, no one's perfect. But seeing what a child needs, it starts off with basic needs. I mean, we start off with our younger children providing them, you know, physical safety, nutrient, sleep, but that kind of goes through life and then it becomes emotional safety.
And responding to them and knowing because it goes right into emotions, knowing sometimes they're going to be happy and a lot of times they're not. And that's okay. And when we message our children that way, like I'm here for you, no matter what, even and probably most importantly in your worst moments, we provide a sense of safety to them. I'm not going to judge you in your worst moments. I'm not going to judge you when you're upset, you know, over something that I think is small, but you think is big.
Yeah, right so when we do that through life mostly that's sort of the
the basis of the relationship, then we can get through the other hard parts that when we're going to get it wrong, because every parent's going to get it right and they're going to get it not so right. But that trust has to come from I'm going to try to tune in as best I can to what you need. Trust is so important. And like being able to self trust is so important as well. And like, I'm very like humanistic psychologist, you know, Carl Rogers. And that was a real big part of that.
that that philosophy was important to trusting yourself and trusting your inner experience. And something you talked about a lot is like, if you grow up in a family where you're every time you express your need, your parent is like, Oh, no, it's not as important as my need. You start to not trust yourself as much.
So I would yes and what you say and see what you think, but it seems like that's a good add-on as well. Absolutely. That as a parent, be aware to the extent to which you're shooting down the real failed experience of a child. It's belief in that, right? That's what you're talking about. It's do I believe you, you know, when the child says, I'm really upset because this happened.
You have to say, okay, they're really upset because this happened, even if I don't get it. Yeah, even if I don't get it. I always think of when I was raising my children who are now all young adults, when they would be younger and they'd say something like, look, do you see? And one time it was this cat in a window, which I could not see for the life of me. We were on a trip.
And I remember saying to myself, just say you see it because at some point, first I was like, no, I don't see it. My child was getting so mad at me because they wanted to like, they wanted me to see what they were saying. So I finally said, yes. And I thought he's going to also know I'm being just genuine, right? And then I spotted it and I was like, Oh, right there. He said, took you a long time. But that idea that then we were in it together. Yeah, I like that. Right. So that's a concrete thing, but they need that when they're saying,
I'm hurt or I'm angry or I'm upset. What's empathy to say? Yeah. Okay. You're upset. But we tend to say things like that's not something to be upset about or that's not so important right now. It doesn't mean you have to stop and kind of stay in it. It doesn't have to be overly, but it does need to be somewhat genuine, right? Not dismissive.
Yeah, I like that. I like that. Well, let's talk about the second one. I'm so big, learning to regulate. It's the entire field of psychology. Yes, the field of self-regulation. Now, I've always been really interested in various definitions of self-regulation in the field.
So, Clancy Blair's research at NYU. I'm really interested in his research and his definition of self-regulation is not inhibiting emotions. It really is about using it and channeling it contextually appropriate. Is that how you see self-regulation? Absolutely, because
You know, like emotions are partly mostly what make us human, right? It's how we connect. It's how we feel ourselves. It's how we feel others. In a way, it's everything.
And I do think for a long time people had this idea. And again, when the psychology term then moves into the mainstream, which is important, our researchers should go outwards. But it can be either watered down or just made too broad, that it was thought like regulation means I'm calm.
And I hear this a lot now. This child's dysregulated. And I say, well, does that mean she's mad? Is he upset? Like, yeah, that's human. So regulation really is about it. And I write about this in the book, right? So it's, it's feeling an emotion, experiencing it.
And not being judged for it, right? That's where shame sets in. I must be so bad that I even feel this way. Yeah. So first, being able to feel it, you know, for the younger the child, the newer this is to them. So having a label for a name for it.
But let's say that's true for adults too. You know, sometimes you might be agitated about something or you're feeling all sorts. And at some point you're like, oh, I'm actually angry about this thing. It's a big relief.
I've got a word for it, I feel it within my body and soul, you can think of it. So it's understanding emotions as a first step to then being able to handle them. And for younger children, parents are the person helping them do that. We do that for infants, we hold them, we stroke them, we rock them, we change them because we don't expect them to handle those emotions.
Toddlers have a big range of emotions. And I always say to parents, I like put my arms out and like a big arc and say, you are their emotional regulator right now. And little by little, they're going to get better at it. But of course, then you get into the teen years when the brain's going through a whole shakeup again. It's harder again. So what children are looking for is a parent to be there, but slowly move into the background as a touch point.
Because emotions go up and down and some days are better than others Yeah, so it's it's really about Regulating emotions is about understanding them feeling them Really feeling them but then being able to get through them in a in a way that says I am angry and then eventually I was angry now I'm feeling better and As children get language parents can remind children
You know, that was rough, and you were mad at your friend. And I'm just thinking about, well, calm you down, or what made you decide to go back to her. And then children can learn from that. They get better in time, but it takes a lot of practice.
I mean, I see a lot of instances as a professor at Barnard College of students that are, you know, kind of have meltdowns, you know, and it's like, as, you know, you're not, you're not their parent, but, you know, as a professor, you kind of hope it's true if there's that way sometimes, to be honest. But, you know, what are some examples of what, you know, how do you handle that in the classroom, you know, because as much as I think they all think they're adults, you know, they're not really, sometimes.
Well, you know, it's funny doing this work for so many years. I can remember early on having a really fabulous student and she showed up for class with a seminar on early development and it was her day to present like an hour presentation.
And she showed up late, really responsible student. And then she said, I didn't know it was my day. And I remember thinking this was before we had all of this really deep knowledge of brain and prefrontal cortex and stuff.
I remember thinking, oh, I think the data was starting to come out like other prefrontal cortex really develops into the mid 20s, right? Yeah. And I remember thinking, oh, OK, well, she's like 20. And she's not there yet. So then I started saying that to the students, like when I would be teaching. Yeah. That, you know, think about this. You know, your brains aren't fully developed. They're close.
Because I'm also teaching about early development, and I say, watch those two-year-olds. They're just on the path. Like, just there. They need adults to support them. But I remind them, you know, you've probably had this. Like, they don't show up for the final. You're like, what do you need to do to show up for the final?
They just forget, you know, and you have to say, okay, so the brains are still developing. But where I find it the most over the years, which is Barnard students, I mean, I feel like, I don't use this word lightly, but I truly feel privileged to be a professor to Barnard students. I've Columbia students too, but I mean, students are Barnard, right? They're curious, they're thinkers, they're right. They want to do good in the world. They really want to do good in the world. They want to do good. They're really just, they're neat people. Yeah.
Greta Gerwig talked about that in an interview after she made the Barbie movie and I was like, yeah, I got that like I've been teaching students like that.
Um, but would be less so now, but they wouldn't get into a class that they wanted, although it still happens, right? And they come in in a panic. Now they just come on zoom, but they used to come into my office crying or in a panic. And I'd say, yeah, you didn't get that class. What was plan B? No, I need this class. You know, they've got it all. This is a very planned student. Everything's supposed to happen. Yeah. And I'm going to take these classes now that I'm going to go abroad and then I say, okay, but you didn't get that class. Yeah.
And I'm very like empathic that way, but no, I can't change it. Did you speak to the professor? Well, I sent an email, so why don't you go to the office hours? Why don't you do like a face-to-face? But also, what's your gonna be your backup plan? Because you actually do need a full load of credits. Let's come up with a backup plan. But to just, in some ways, I'm modeling what parents have to model, which is like, it's gonna be okay.
Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? I'm Ocelotian, one of the new hosts of the long-running podcast Tech Stuff. I'm slightly skeptical but obsessively intrigued. And I'm Cara Price, the other new host. And I'm ready to adopt early and often.
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Seven questions, limitless answers. I have this, I'm teaching this, you know, application only class and having all these students last second being like, I need to take your seminar class that Columbia, like it's my fault, like it's all on, it's all on my shoulders.
And I think that if some of these students actually are too perseverant, it's not like they, they think that's like going to convince me, win me over. Right. But it's actually the opposite. Like that's what you're going to be like in my class. Yeah. But also you can't just give it to the people who, right? Because what about the people who way back in April, they filled out my application or they're sitting on the waitlist and they're like, I'm hoping I'll get in, but they don't know that they could.
Yeah. You can't just do the go-getters. Yeah, like last minute, last minute. Oh, yeah. Like I need it. I need it. Yeah, yeah, like I need it. I need it. Like it's all on you, you know. I always tell my advisees, I will go to bat feet. Like if they've tried to get into something several semesters, I'd say, look, if you don't get in this time, I'm going to go to bat for you.
But there's nothing that they need that they haven't planned for, you know. You sound good. Good advisor. I'd like to. I love it. Someone I would like to have isn't it? You seem like someone I would like to have is in life. I do love that. You can call any time. I love those. I love advising. I love mentoring. Yeah, I can tell.
and I do too. It's such a purposeful thing to do. Even just like, I love having office hours. I love being able to mentor students informally in office hours. Developing agency. Let's talk about that one a little bit. How do you establish limits alongside freedom to make mistakes? This I call this the freedom trail, right?
You know, I always start thinking about the young child who then becomes the older child, the teenager, is that, you know, as they get a sense of self and they start to move out in the world, first of all, they want to be with peers, right? That's the connected part. But there is this sense of, I can do this, whatever this is, you know, it starts off with maybe completing a little puzzle and then climbing the steps and then it's calculus before you know it, right?
So parents often think, let my child do whatever they want, right? We're in an age of, you know, gentleness is interpreted as let them do whatever they want. But children feel safest when the adults say, even that's a great idea, but I actually can't let you do it. Right? So we, we at our center have, we have buckets all around the room because toddlers love to throw. That's agency.
I've got some power now. I've got a cracker in my hand. It gets flung across the room. You know, I've got this little toy object or bigger one. Whoa, you can see the wheels turning like. You can see it. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, I can see they look at a toy. I'm watching them and I think that's going to get flung across the room. And so we give them buckets and the teachers will say to them, Hey, you want to throw your throat in here. It's like a redirection. But that's the beginning of agency. I have an idea. I can carry it out.
And then the adults go, well, actually, you can't run into the street. You know, actually, when we eat, we eat at the table, you can be done, but that's the limit. And then children start to feel safer. Okay, I can go out there. I can try all kinds of things I can stumble and I can fall.
I'm not going to ruin myself. I'm not going to ruin my relationship with my parents. Because ultimately, in a healthy enough relationship, again, not perfect, children want to know that they're in their parents' good races, even when they're doing what seem like very challenging. That's a very interesting point.
they won't admit it. Teenagers for sure won't admit it. They won't like explicitly say, I would like to secretly be in your good gracings, but you can see that you are a very observant.
We know you you have children. I have three children. Yeah. Yeah. So now young adults. Yeah. But there's still my children. There's still your children. That's still true. Yes. And and you've gained a lot of experience and knowledge through you've gained a lot of knowledge through experience. Yes. First experience helps. Yeah. Yeah. Inform your work. Yeah.
Yeah, and they're also different. That's really what helps. Yes, individual differences. Yeah, I have three male children. And for years, people say, oh, you have three boys, as if they were clones of each other. I'd say, yeah, but I'd have to go to the teachers each year, if they were going to get a same, if one of my children was going to get a teacher that one of my other children had, I would have to go in and say something like, I know you've had one, I just want you to know how different this
next child is because I thought it's not going to be fair if they think they're all like. You're right. And we tend to do that. We tend to put sex in there as if it's that's everything. Right. Yeah. Um, so, you know, and then this should say to me, like, Oh, you know what's amazing about your kids? Like they are so different. I say, yes, they're out of the same family. I promise you, but they came into the world different. They've, you know, they walk a different path. And that's, I think,
Yes, I'm a psychologist, just I've worked with many, many children of all ages at this point, but it's really appreciating that individual means just that, individual. And it's hard for us as parents to grasp that often, myself included. Especially if the child is just so divergent from you. Yeah.
Yeah. And from their siblings, maybe, or anything that the family expected. And that's true as well. Yeah. Yeah. Parents have a plan too. Parents have a plan. Does anything ever go by the plan? Maybe a little bit. In reality. And when it does, I worry, actually, for some of those children who are following the parents' plan, being really good, doing what they think the parent wants, then I really worry about where is their sense of
whom I am, when is that going to come out? Yeah, very good point. Well, that might relate to the next one, connecting, connecting to others. So there's obviously the part of that connecting with the child as a parent, but also developing in the child, the social skills, so they're developing with other kids.
you know, positively. Um, how important is it for children to develop these social skills for like, how important is it really? Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. So, I mean, one of the wonderful things I think about four year olds in particular is they,
they start to wake up to like, oh, there's an entire peer group here. And most of them want to be part of it in some way. And so it's almost like a gangster mentality. I don't know if I'm supposed to be using that terminology, but they're very empowered. Yeah. And they want to be together and two-year-olds want to be together, too, without much skill. Four-year-olds have more skill, more language. They can do more cooperatively. They're sort of figuring that out.
But I think the misnomer is that children have to have a lot of friends. And so parents will come to me worried whether it's about a preschool or an elementary, middle school, like name the level. She doesn't have friends, which would be worrisome for most children, right? But then when I started talking to them, they do have a one friend, one ally. Maybe it's at
There after school program, maybe it's at their church. Maybe, right, my best friend growing up lived across the street and she wasn't in my grade. So we didn't see each other at school. And, but I had her, like I could come home from a good or bad day and I hit Barb. Yes. Right. And so we tend to think children need to somehow be in the middle of the group, but not all, not all children are and not all children want to be.
that doesn't feel right. So there's again, a big variation. But what we do know is that when children really don't have any friends or they're rejected, they're really outright pushed out, not like disliked. It can be problematic. And you know, that's all of John Cooley's work out of Duke, right? And that's when I was in grad school, actually, he was not, I didn't work with John directly, but you know, that work was just getting started. And absolutely.
So really being rejected, you know, openly, but what we call the neglected children and peer relations, right? Those are the ones I think parents worry about. They say, well, you know, when, when all the kids are high-fiving each other on the playground in the morning, mind-standing back. And I say, yeah, but then what do you hear from school? She says, Oh, I was with my friend or he says,
Yeah, I found a game to play. You know, we're sharing it. Somebody told me recently their son discovered yo-yos. As if it was a new thing. He's like 10. And he has a friend at school that also does yo-yos. And that's now what they do at recess or whenever they, you know, probably the cafeteria. And I was like, how cool is that? Like he found somebody who has his interest in these learning tricks. You know, everybody wants to belong, I think.
We want to belong somewhere. I just actually, just before you, I had Michael Morris from Columbia, who talked about tribalism and the fundamental need to belong. Yeah, we want to belong. But it doesn't have to be in a big group. I mean, I was never a group person, one of it. I mean, either.
Things that somebody said to me, my first high school reunion I went to, it must have been my 10 year. This woman comes up to me and she says, I was hoping you would be here. And I said, oh, why? I knew, but we weren't, we wouldn't have called her such friends, but we knew each other.
She said, because you never joined a group in high school, but you always had friends. And I just thought you were cool. And I said, well, that's so funny because I was so anxious socially in high school. And she said, yeah, but you didn't join a group just to join one. She said, you always followed your own path. And that was so interesting because for me, that was hard. Like,
That is who I was, but there was some price to be paid. And for her, it was admiration. And she just said, I'm so glad to see you here. And I was like, wow. Because here I thought, if only I were a joiner and got in with a crowd, but she said, no, but you kind of mingled with all the groups, which was true.
But I wasn't part of any of them. So I thought to myself, oh, nobody really wins totally in these things, but we all want to be somewhere that we feel like we belong.
It's an interesting one. I really resonate a lot with that, the way I was as well. But I almost go to the point, if someone wants me to be part of their group, they act like we don't want to be a part of it. So it's like, I know there's a thing that's quote like that, right? I don't want to be a member of any group that wants me. I feel that I do feel that way, though, because what do you want from me? I'd rather not to
We're going to have to go back and talk about your parents now. I'm sure there's something stemming from that. But I really resonate a lot with that. We may have been friends if we were in like Elmo and just called together. Because from what you're describing yourself, I would have been like, I like her.
Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of an outsider, but not totally. Yeah. I, I, I, by gravity towards my fellow outsiders. Yeah. I guess that is, I guess that is then the group. But yeah. Thank you people who are thinking for themselves. I always say it was at some cost. Although then I became the yearbook editor, which was my savior in high school because there was a yearbook room and you had a, then we had a print photos and lay them out and
That was like my heathen, right? And the other people who liked photography and liked doing layout, like we could just hang out, you know, in that room. I think it's still picture. Yeah. Sounds lovely. Yeah, it was lovely. Yeah.
The last strategy I want to talk about is loving oneself. Yeah. And look, it really ties up, I think, nicely a lot of other themes we talked about today, like neurodiversity, highly individual differences. How can you really kind of just accept your child as they are as you want them to be? It seems to be a really important key to well-being, which is my domain of research. Such a key. It's such a key to well-being because I think every parent wants to do well by their child. And I say this having worked
in my clinical psych years with parents who were abusive, but then I had to come to realize they still love their children and they were trying and didn't mean that the child shouldn't be removed at times. But for the most part, parents want to do well by children, but that often means really reflecting on ourselves to say, who is this child in front of me?
because we all have, if I'm being kind, I would say rose-colored glasses, meaning that we have some shading of our own expectations, our own desires, our own fears for our children, which can blind us from seeing a child. And if they are neurodiverse or just really different from us or maybe kind of like somebody that really drives us crazy, that could be, they remind you of your apparent or a sibling,
You have to really get to that and say, wait a minute, but she's not my older sister. So how do we really come to know ourselves to say, why is this piece of my child upsetting me so much? Or why am I trying to force something on this child that doesn't fit for them? And as you know, I have examples in my book of trying to unpack that with a parent. Like, who is this child? And how can I help you work to see this child for who they are?
Um, because every child, every human wants to be understood. Yes. And seen and appreciated. But the good news is when parents are able to say, I see you, I hear you, even when it's hard, even when I don't like it, the child then internalizes that. Oh, I'm okay. I'm accepted from who I am. When we keep pushing them to be something that they're not, or they can't be,
or they're just not, they internalize. There's something wrong with me. I'm bad. I'm not loved as me. There's a big price to pay later on life. And as they go through life, not just anxiety or insecurity, but really a sense of deep-seated shame, I'm not okay as me. And I don't think any parent wants that for their child. I don't think they go into it saying, let me create this, but inadvertently that's what happens.
And sometimes they'll create all sorts of fantasies about who they think they are, though. So I'm just saying they're extreme things. But yes, you're a fairy. You know, like, I don't know about accepting that. But maybe you do. Maybe you do it all with hilarity. Yeah. Well, that's such an important point. I'm going to say this in my points at the book, because I think this is the key to parenting. You've got to have humor.
Yeah. Respectful. You end the whole book with that. Yeah. God, I have humor. I mean, I can think of children. I've had children at two, but then I see the parent at 10. I'm like, is she still calling herself little kitty? I mean, I have a children marching to the room and say, I'm little kitty, and then you call them by their name. They don't respond. Wow. Right. And which I think is kind of cool. You know, and then the parent, I ran into a parent, I said to him, does she still go by little kitty? You're thinking, oh, at 10, she doesn't. And he goes only in private at home.
And I just thought, well, because there was a piece of her that was like saying, this is the tender piece of me. This is the piece of me that needs to be baby. And he said, yeah, we still joke about it. No, she doesn't really. But you know, there are private moments where she does. And I think, you know, we all want to be taken care of at some level. And that's what children are grappling with all the time. If I grow up, if I do this thing, if I get agency and walk that freedom trail to independence,
Will you still be here for me? That's our teen struggle. That's our toddler's struggle. And really, I see it in my young adult children. They're moving out in the world. But when they call or
So you don't have coming home for the weekend. They want a touch point. They're not like saying goodbye forever. And that's like, I really think what we want for our children. We want them to want to come home when they don't have to. It's a hundred percent. Right? They want them to say, Hey, like we have a meal together. A hundred percent. Yeah. They don't need you. They just want to be with you. Yeah. Let's get together. Yes. Yes. Now a rumor, there's a rumor going around that you're retiring soon. Is that right?
So I'm putting it this way. I'm stepping down at the end of June 2025 from my Rawls director of Barnard. And you're still so young. I feel like I'm too young to. I mean, I feel like there's so much work I want to continue doing children with families with programs. I spent a month in South Africa this past year working with a program that I've worked with from afar and then one previous time there.
And I thought, I want to do more of this. There's so much that could be done that I want to do. And yeah, so it's going to be hard. But we've been, you know, making the transition and we'll hire someone really good into that position. I have a great team of staff. So, but yes, I've
Yeah, it was not an easy decision to come to, but I bet there's still so much for you to do. Yeah. Yeah. But you have done so much. And just to end by, thank you so much for the great contribution you made to our field. I can, I'm one of those interviewers that can truly appreciate what you've done to the field, right, as opposed to you having interviewers. Do you know what I mean? I get you. I get you. I see you. Yeah.
I'm really appreciative of what the foundation you put for people like me, interested in education and child development.
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from high tech to low culture and everywhere in between. Join us. Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. John Stewart is back at The Daily Show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the shows, correspondence and contributors.
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Welcome. My name is Paola Pedroza, a medium and the host of the Ghost Therapy Podcast, where it's not just about connecting with deceased loved ones. It's about learning through them and their new perspective. I think God sent me this gift so I can show it to the world. And most of all, I help people every single day. Listen to the Ghost Therapy Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
What if you ask two different people the same set of questions? Even if the questions are the same, our experiences can lead us to drastically different answers. I'm Minnie Driver, and I set out to explore this idea in my podcast, and now, Minnie Questions is returning for another season. We've asked an entirely new set of guests, our seven questions, including Jane Lynch, Delaney Rowe, and
called Jefferson. Listen to many questions on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers.
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