How to Be Courageous | Stacy McClendon

Wondery plus subscribers can listen to 10% happier early and add free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. From ABC, this is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

Hey gang, many of us know that meditation can confer all sorts of tantalizing physiological and psychological benefits, including but not limited to self-awareness, calm, compassion, etc. But what about courage?

My guest today says, yes, meditation can, in fact, boost your courage quotient. And you're going to hear her talk about exactly how. Her name is Stacy McClendon. She is a teacher at the Common Ground Meditation Center in Minneapolis. She also has a pretty deep background in social work.

This, by the way, is the second episode in our week-long series marking the one-year anniversary of the murder of George Floyd. Stacey has been organizing and hosting weekly so-called Truth and Justice vigils online, which are available to anybody.

And they've been taking place during the most recent trial and will continue through the upcoming trials of the other officers charged in the murder of George Floyd. And they may continue indefinitely. You'll hear her talk more about that project. In this conversation, we also talk about a Buddhist list called the 10 PowerMies and how these qualities, the PowerMies, can support courage.

We talk about how white people can step up and be courageous in this time, how compassion, contrary to popular belief, is not a weakness. And we talk about how to be what she calls a compassionate agitator.

A technical note, you might hear a little background noise from time to time, including church bells, birds, and at one point, Stacy's 20-year-old cat, Rain, who was sharing some opinions rather loudly as the parent of a couple of elderly cats. I get it. Before we dive in, I do want to do one item of business. If you'll humor me, I want to make a pitch. Recently, I was reflecting on a conversation I had

uh, earlier this year with lama rod Owens, who's a brilliant meditation teacher. He also wrote a book called love and rage. And we were talking about the importance of establishing a meditation practice during good times.

I think this is a quote from Bruce Lee, where he says that in crisis, we don't rise to our expectations, but we fall to our training. I don't think that's precisely the quote, but that's the gist that in a crisis, we are only embodying our training.

I think sometimes we sit and say, OK, well, in a crisis, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. I'm going to be really clear. And I'm going to know exactly what to do. But when a crisis happens, actually, what happens is I just fall into my practice. Whatever my practice was before the crisis, that's where I'm at. So if I don't have a practice, then it's very difficult. My teachers always said, you know, it's really important to practice during the good times. Practice really hard.

during the good times, during the times where there's not a crisis, where you're not overwhelmed. Really take advantage of those times because when something really happens, then sometimes we don't have

the space to consciously say, okay, I'm going to pay attention to my thoughts. I'm going to create spaciousness and all of that. If you're in a position where you're starting to feel like you have your feet back under you, maybe you even had them back under you for a while, now could be a great time to start building that level of practice that can catch you when inevitably you're buffeted by crises, whether big or small.

As you know, I talk on this podcast quite a bit about our companion meditation app on that app, which is really my baby. I love that app. You can find guided meditations and also video slash audio courses, all of them featuring some of the world's best teachers and scientists. You can also find short talks.

which are filled with relatable wisdom on topics ranging from happiness to anxiety and beyond. We also have one-on-one coaching from really experienced meditators, and those folks can help you keep your practice consistent and of a high quality.

Right now we're offering 40% off the price of a year-long subscription to the app. The offer lasts until June 1st. So hopefully this discount will give you a nudge if you need one. Of course, nothing is permanent. So as I said, the deal ends on June 1st. And if you want to get it, go to 10% dot com slash may. That's 10% one word all spelled out dot com slash may for 40% off your subscription.

Okay, having said all of that, let's dive in now with Stacy McClendon. Stacy McClendon, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me, Dan. So...

As you know, we're doing a pair of episodes this week. Just looking back at the past year since the murder of George Floyd. And I'm just curious, since you are in the Minneapolis area, do you have a memory of the first time you saw the video? I do actually. That was actually quite recently. I.

was actually not in the Minneapolis area at the time George Floyd was murdered due to my mother passing away. And I made the choice at that time to keep my focus on my family and then returning to the Minneapolis area resuming work. I did do a tour around the city and saw a lot of the destruction to many communities

But I really had the sense that my heart might just shatter in watching the video, hearing description of those nine minutes and 29 seconds seemed really clear. And certainly I had seen pictures or clips on the news, but I decided to watch the trial.

And part of opening arguments day one was watching the video in its entirety. And indeed, my heart shattered and I

Wept at what appeared to me to be a blatant absence of humanity, care for another living being, respect for community, an absence of humanity on most all levels. What motivated you to watch the trial?

I remember watching the video of Rodney King being beaten in the street and aware of the subsequent acquittal and all of the acquittal set of happened in the years between

and wanted to believe that at long last, this would be the case with this undeniable video that would hold police officers' law enforcement accountable for the abuse and murder of unarmed black men. And I wanted to be a witness to history.

And it would be a witness to history, either way, the verdict went. And fortunately, the jury saw that Derek Chauvin's treatment of George Floyd was excessive, but I could not stand with my community in whatever way that I could, watching the trial.

sending, loving, kindness, support, energy to those testifying, those that were present in person bearing witness, watching the life leave George Floyd's body. So there was an aspect of your Buddhist practice that seems to be quite prominent in this witnessing you were doing.

Yeah, my Buddhist practice, I have not been successful at separating from this lived life.

I'm sometimes baffled by this term, engaged Buddhism. My practice is such to allow me to bring the fruits of my practice into the world, which is where I spend most of my time. I do not spend most of my time on the cushion. And so this lens of living ethically

treating others with kindness and respect and patience and being generous. All of those are not separate from my daily life. And in fact, listening to the trial, watching the trial, I was quite surprised that one day what arose for me was actually compassion for Derek Chauvin.

really interested or curious about how he got there, how he got to the place where he could be numb to his own inhumanity, be numb to the life of another human being, supposedly a human being that he knew. And I also became interested in the people who

support police brutality or the police having authority to manage particularly black and brown bodies with a great deal of force. I'm really curious what their experience is or has been that allows them to overlook

the harm that is caused. And realizing really the only way to have some understanding is to actually be in relationship, to actually have a conversation. And I started trying to create a way to gather folks together who are of

differing opinions, mindsets to come together with an interest in understanding, not the aim to change anyone's mind at all, but simply to understand how we arrived here and to also peek into one's understanding of the impact of such a perspective. One of the things you hear

as a pushback against cultivating compassion or empathy for people who've harmed you or done harm or just otherwise seen as bad actors. One of the pushbacks you get is that it could be weakness. It could make you a pushover. Did your experience of compassion for Derek Chauvin scan to you as weakness?

No, it didn't feel like weakness. I'm also not confused that it's not about endorsing that behavior. I'm acknowledging that there has been this behavior that's already occurred. In my opinion, it was excessive. It was ruled excessive. But the compassion is about relating to another human being, someone else's son or possibly brother,

What were the circumstances, not only of his life, the physical circumstances, but the condition of his heart and mind. And because I am a Buddhist practitioner and this commitment to non-harming, not killing, and watched it grow over the years and change, for many years I wasn't bothered by killing ants and spiders and flies and mosquitoes, all the things that annoyed me and I didn't want in my space.

And the deeper my practice became, the less distance I saw between one life and another. That killing an aunt could use the same story that a white person or a police officer might use.

for a black or brown person. You don't belong here. This isn't your space. This is my space. It's virtually the same conversation and being aware of that and not wanting to put that in motion. That is the karma. And so no, it's not a softening. It's also an accountability level of accountability. We don't have to

distance ourselves from someone who's done something terrible, awful. We likely all know someone who's done something terrible. If it's in the family, which we usually kept as a secret, you know, friends that maybe we fall out with or grow some distance from because they did something unethical or that we at least believed was wrong.

But what is that practice, what allows us to stay close to that person, to understand how they arrived there, even when they've done something horrible? And it is my Buddhist practice, and I'm sure many other faiths as well. But it really is the test, putting it into motion when we're sitting on the cushion, wishing

Everyone peace and happiness and access to all that gives them ease and may they be accountable for their actions. That is the easy place for the practice and is more challenging in the face of someone who is struggling. And the Buddha didn't ask that we then kick them out of our heart that we stay with. We stay close to.

And it's indeed being intimate with suffering and difficulty that allows us to melt those divisions, to melt that distance between us as human beings. Help us remember that we belong to one another.

We are essentially the same. Some of our horrible deeds are more grand and horrible than others, but we've all done things that we perhaps regret or at the very least are not proud of.

And all that feeling when someone we know and care about comes to us and says, oh yeah, that was bad. That was real bad. And I'm still here for you. Don't do that again. And I'm still here for you. Now, I'm not going to be the person for Derek Chauvin that says, I'm still here for you. But I think it's important that he and everyone else know that there is a community that cares.

and believes in their capacity to do better. Not just shame and blame and punish. You talked about the Buddha of memory serves.

One of the Buddha's followers was a reformed serial killer. His name was Anguli Mala. He used to wear a necklace of fingers or something like that for the victims. If you believe the Buddhist texts and whether that story is literally true or not, the notion that we can all change. I think there are two sides of this coin. One, there's the notion that you've just articulated that we have it all in us.

No matter how good we might think we are, we have the right conditions, the capacity for truly pernicious actions is there in us if we look for it, and if we're being honest with ourselves. And the other side of that coin is we can change. And that's not like a statement of faith. It shows up on the brain scans of people who meditate. You can change your brain by extension, your mind, and that can have lots of psychological and physiological benefits, but also behavioral benefits.

Yeah, no, I love that story of Von Goolemala, and not only did he change, but it was as a result of the Buddha coming out to find him, to look for him, right? So the Buddha was well aware that he was out there slaying people about to slay his own mother even. And the Buddha was not passive and just sending well wishes.

but went out because he knew that, like all of us, he had the seeds, he had the capacity to live from this place of goodness, from kindness. And he was given a second chance, right? And he became enlightened and even still the village remembered before he became enlightened when he wasn't such a nice guy.

You know, they throw things at him, refused to honor him. And the Buddha said, Barrett, Brahman. So your karma doesn't get erased. He's still accountable for his actions. It's like you'll stay here. You'll sit here and you'll take it. This is the fruit of your choices. This is the fruit of your path.

And oftentimes, we don't want that part, especially after we've woken up and acknowledge that we've done wrong. We wanted to fresh start. And it's been set in motion. There's no fresh start. We can rebuild from where we are. You talked about the Buddha not being passive. Do you notice at all the sort of proclivity for passivity?

among people who get into meditation and Buddhism. I mean, you referenced before this term engaged Buddhism, which is a term of art in the Buddhist community. It's sort of Buddhist social activism. And for you, you said you were kind of mystified by it always like that. It should just be inherent in the word Buddhism that you're going to be engaged back to my question. Do you notice that sometimes people get into this practice and it's all about like taking care of themselves and it's not really about being active in the world? Yeah, I think that it takes some time to

First understand the complexity of what's happening with this heart mind and come to terms with the way that we respond to our mind, the way that we respond to the world. And then, I mean, that could be years of practice. I often talk about meditation practice being like therapy intensive. So really looking deeply at our habits.

And we can be most skillful in this outward expression of our practice once we have some sense of understanding about our own habit tendencies.

And yes, a lot of the practices, the meta practices where we sit quietly and peacefully and wish well for others makes the heart feel so good. Makes us feel good that we're sending goodness out into the world. And it's fairly easy. Practice long enough, even with the difficult people on the cushion, we're able to get to a place where we can send them while wishes. And that's an easy place to stop.

and go back to our constructed and protected lives. And at some levels, it's a political conversation in Dharma centers, how involved with social issues is appropriate for an organization or how it aligns with

the teachings. And I know there are organizations that are grappling with those questions still today. And so each organization and their leadership defining what engaged Buddhism looks like or how to foster personal accountability, individual accountability to one another. And I think the teachings

The Pyramids are those that lay out the action steps that are necessary to bring this practice alive in our relationships. This is the crossing of the river. This is the action that we can engage in.

We referenced the pyramids there. Can you describe what those are? Yeah, so the pyramids are this list of 10 actionable items are said to have been developed after the teachings of the Buddha were finally written down and are described to be what we as lay practitioners can cultivate in our daily lives.

so that we too can be awakened. Generosity is the first in the list of 10, and generosity is often thought of

in terms of physical generosity, offering money or tangible goods. But a deep part of practice is also this generous offering of ourselves in terms of listening, being generous in our kindness, generous in our patience.

an integrity which we find on the noble eightfold path and so it's really one of the pillars the ethics with which we're living our lives how we engage with one another right our action the actual action so our speech how we speak to one another whether we're willing to stretch the truth or tell little white lies or big old lies the precepts are sort of captured in there also how we

engage with one another sexually, whether we're stealing from one another. So really our ethical behavior. Renunciation, which is the flip side of generosity, is really this practice of looking at all of the places that we are holding on, clinging to, right? Desperately related to greed,

and really being clear about that which is unnecessary to live a life that is wholesome, live a life where the Brahma Vaharis are at the center. So all of the physical, tangible things, material things that we hold on to, houses and cars and

jewelry and all of the things we hoard in our lives or people and relationships or status really being willing to look at what is necessary to live a good and simple life wisdom simply the truth of the way things are being open to

Receiving that, not thinking is the way I like to think about it. Wisdom comes when we are willing to stop thinking. It's actually in the body that we understand or begin to understand the complexity of the opportunities that we are living in.

energy. So I think of the hindrances. Sloth and torpor is one of the hindrances that there has to be this balance. Certainly the body needs rest. Sloth and torpor is just sleeping through life, not energy.

But this path, the staying diligent, staying awake, being interested in this exploration in creating balance and the mind-heart requires a great deal of energy, wholesome energy, not striving energy, but the energy to stay interested and committed on the path. Patients, we have to explain patients a whole lot

But we were talking earlier about the Chauvin trial and in the protests and all of the expressions of outrage and hurt.

And perhaps folks have some ideas of the proper way to protest or the proper time to protest. And I think that's a great example of just slowing it down, having some patience. Again, not for things to work out necessarily, but to have understanding of how this came to be.

not to jump over others' experience and perspective. And that's a significant part of patience I found is setting aside my own narrative, which is really robust and doesn't require the input of others too often. And therein is the problem. So having the patience to accept that I don't necessarily know.

and that there is something else for me to hear, learn from, grow from. I think truthfulness was the the power of me that really got me thinking about the truth and justice vigil that I started with Common Ground Meditation Center.

Yeah, that seems like the definition of truth is pretty straightforward, but it's handled very delicately, I will say, in Buddhism. So in a studied sense, relating or dealing with that in accordance with reality, that's equanimity. We understand that and practice that.

When it comes to interpersonal relationships and things get a bit complicated or prickly or uncomfortable, the dance becomes a bit more elaborate around what is appropriate, I'm using my air quotes, appropriate to share and disclose than not.

And I'll be honest, as a queer black woman, not from Minnesota, so I'm not deep into this Minnesota-nice culture, the truth is what I am interested in, in my relationships.

And sometimes that may come out skillfully or a bit harsh. But I think with good intentions, we can find our way through together. And so that really is what inspired me for the truth and justice vigil.

Resolve is much like energy sticking with it, having the determination to stick with this course, this path to understand, awaken, and loving kindness and equanimity.

meeting our experience, the entirety of our experience with kindness. Hatred does not solve hatred and living in a deluded way, refusing to see things as they are, refusing to.

acknowledge the depth and breadth of racism that is very much well alive in our systems in this country has gotten us precisely where we are. And so when people say, well, this isn't who we are as a country, well, of course it is. How could it be otherwise? How could we have landed anywhere else given our trajectory?

even in my lifetime. So this refusal to see things the way they are has us tangled in this tangle that in some way we have to come together to untangle. And there are certainly different schools of thought that white folks need to do their work on their own and BIPOC need their space to

begin to heal from this collective trauma. And I believe that there is some truth in that. And I also feel that at some point we have to come together to heal together and transform this healing into a community that

can live. These pyramids can live with courage and truthfulness to transform these

hurts his atrocities to create the world for your grandchildren, future generations that can meet this world, hopefully transforms and with greater understanding and tenderness. Just to check, did you just rattle off the 10 pyramids from memory? Well, not exactly.

Because that was pretty good. Well, I've been studying for a number of years, so there's a few lists I have down. And some, honestly, I consider myself fairly young in my practice. And some are just foundational. I'm really OK, not moving beyond the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, and the Pyramids. I could do a lot of work there for a long, long time.

Nonetheless respect, by the way, I'm going to try to sum up what you said, but please correct me where I go wrong. But I think what I was hearing you say is, hey, yeah, it makes sense to get into meditation to take care of yourself, be a little less stressed, develop.

the better angels of your own nature. But as you go down this path, the point is not just to be in your own little bliss bubble. The point is to be a more constructive actor in the world writ large. Yeah, and that's Sangha. And we don't choose Sangha

There's nothing that's excluded. I like to think of this sort of in terms of suburbs, right? So some of your sangha is going to be your first ring sangha. They're there, you're studying together, you're practicing together. And then there are folks who are further out, maybe you have less engagement with, but still we belong to one another and remembering that takes much more

and effort because we forget. And then they become other. We begin othering them. Well, it's those people who live in those suburbs or that look a particular way. And so a lot of what I am working to do and I invite others to work to do is cultivating courage. Cultivating courage to stay in our practice

and allow us to be transformed. So again, dropping out of the head and into the body. And it's leaning into this faith, this trust that what we're cultivating in our practice

Will yield a useful impact on others? Will be the fruit of what is needed in the moment for personal transformation, for social transformation? Perhaps there's many Virgos out there like me. You create a plan, you devise the plan, identify the key stakeholders, you implement the plan, and then you move on.

And so for me, in that sense, practice is a challenge all of the time. It's being open, waiting, collecting evidence, not only externally, but in the body, checking in with the heart, understanding the typical route that I go.

But is that what's needed right now? And is that out of ego? Is that out of need? What exactly are we responding to here? And responding at all, because we could not, in many cases, systemic structural racism gives a great out for people like me who want to have a plan and implement, correct the problem, and move on. And it's so large.

And it's been in place for centuries. And the sad news is we won't see resolution in my lifetime likely. What we're working for is a different world for your children, hopefully, and your grandchildren. And can we sustain our diligence even though we won't see that result. And that's in the teaching, right?

where we show up kind, compassionate, sympathetic joy, not because of a particular outcome, but because it is essentially the right thing. It is what's needed right now. And can we march in the street or write letters to our legislature or whatever we are empowered and able to do from our particular station?

without knowing there is going to be a particular guaranteed outcome. I want to key in on a word you use there, which is courage. How do you define or think of courage and how can it be generated through meditation? I think, yeah, what I said, that courage staying in our practice to inform our actions

I often talk about turning toward versus turning away. So not this active, not only looking for peace and harmony, but also understanding that turning toward difficulty, turning toward chaos even sometimes. There is harmony and peace available there as well. And so cultivating courage

In part, we have to be willing to look at what happens when we are consumed with fear. And fear is a natural and healthy and appropriate response in many situations.

Most of the time, most of us are not fearing for our lives, for our safety, for our well-being. What we are fearing is a repeat of some previous encounter or experience, and maybe not even our own.

Perhaps the trauma of our ancestors resonates within our genes and so we are activated when we see a person that is a particular stature or race or has particular movements and being able to recognize what's being activated is of old and we are responding to as if it is new and fresh and current.

And it takes a hell of a lot of fortitude to make that discernment and set aside that fear that is very much rippling through the body right now. And fear recognizing how limiting, constricting fear is. It keeps us from speaking up.

for one another, for ourselves. It keeps us from standing up for what is good and right. What you're talking about reminds me of an experience I had recently that is not, doesn't have to do with race per se, but I have a fear, I have many fears, but one of them is pretty seriously claustrophobic. And I did a shoot, a video shoot with a great

anxiety therapist out of harvard doctor luanda marquez and she specializes in helping people get over their fears and so she and i road elevators couple days in a row and i don't like elevators and i don't like small elevators and i don't like when they stop when i'm not expecting them to stop between floors or the doors don't open and

Even though she's not a meditation teacher said a lot of things that are similar to what I heard from you, or at least what I thought I heard, which was, okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to get you used to this. And when the fear comes up, I want you to drop out of your head into your body and just notice how it feels. And then notice your thoughts and kind of cross examine them.

You know, my thought would be I'm never going to get out of here. The walls are closing in on me. It's like that scene from Star Wars where the trash compactors, you know, coming in on the gang of heroes and just she was like, you know, use common sense to say, have you ever not survived an elevator ride?

What are the odds that these doors are not going to open and if they don't open, what really is going to happen to you? You'll tell me if I'm way off here, but that strikes me as a way in a completely different context of using the practice to cultivate courage.

Yeah, yeah. Testing it out. Like, is this really true? And we can ask ourselves, well, is this really true? And it becomes this very intellectual exercise. And undoubtedly, we will pull forth some evidence that, yes, this is true. It is dangerous to get on an elevator. And here's an example. Like, we can find that in conversations around race, for example.

Many of us have these stories, this narrative that people get angry, someone's going to get hurt, I'm going to say the wrong thing. And all of those things might be true. And in that context, in that very rich and dynamic dialogue, can there be something useful that comes of it? And so it really isn't until we find the space and person that we can test that out.

You know, you might get on the elevator for five minutes, right up three floors. You might say to an uncle, your very racist uncle. I'm just not comfortable with that. And maybe it's the very first time that you've said something to your racist uncle as he's spouting off and check in with your body.

Like, your uncle didn't kill you, probably, I hope not. You didn't die. It was physically uncomfortable as are most new things that are really edgy and dangerous for us. And can we rest in that discomfort?

and be interested in its peak and its fade away because it will. As it arose, it will peak and it will fade away.

We think that we'll be stuck in that peak feeling of anxiety or despair and that that will be the entirety of our experience, whether it's on the elevator or speaking to someone in a difficult conversation around race.

And so there could be certainly times where we have these stories about what is safe and what is not particularly around race. And many of us have been conditioned. Black people are threatening and violent. White police are threatening and violent. And we adjust our behaviors accordingly.

And it can be challenging, but not impossible to find environments to unpack that. So common ground meditation center and clouds and waters and center, we're just completing a seven month book study of Resma Menachem's, My Grandmother's Hands, and intentionally took seven months

to really talk about this embodied experience and perceptions, particularly around interactions between black folks, white folks, and police bodies.

in all of the history that we carry and act out without exploration, without care, without care for ourselves, and certainly without care for for others. Much more of my conversation with Stacy McClendon coming up right after this.

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I know there's this question that sometimes gets asked among white people, a white person might say, I get that there are huge issues here and that it's incumbent upon all of us to play a role. But what does that look like? Have you heard this, these noises before? And do you find that to be a frustrating question? How do you answer it? What are your thoughts on this?

Yes, I've heard the question. Depending on my mood, it's a fine question and it's an earnest question. And I think it has taken a bit of courage for the white folks that are approaching me at least to ask that question. And I think much like meditation, mindfulness practice, where we're

really coming back to the simplest elements of our lives, sitting, breathing, being mindful. Action can be as straightforward, right? So each of us has a unique station in our life. We have

access to power authority or we have the resources to dive into a difficult relationship. All of those places where we have access lean in.

lean into those places. I have a friend whose father-in-law, by their own account, is a racist and spouts his beliefs freely in front of the family and it's absolutely enraging for my friend.

who has chosen to say nothing for years and years and years, because it will be uncomfortable. It will disrupt the family dynamic and on and on she goes. And she's still very interested in being active in this.

resolving race relations. And I just talked with her about how I imagine how difficult that will be given that she has not been able to make her voice heard with someone that she is close to, with someone that she knows, and that that is a great place to start.

And it's like meta practice don't doubt the power of such a seemingly small interaction that the impact ripples out. So talk to your friends and family who

articulate a perspective or viewpoint that is different than yours without trying to convince them that their way is wrong, without trying to change their mind. Again, genuinely engaging with interest.

How did you come to have that perspective? How do you imagine that impacts these people like genuinely with interest to understand? So courage doesn't necessarily mean flipping tables or throwing cutlery. It can just be inquiring with real interest as opposed to just an outright confrontation.

Absolutely. And it may have that same intensity for that friend as it would for me, say, in my workplace proposing a whole anti-racist curriculum. So we have to let go of any ideas that we have of what courage or transformation looks like. Like, oh, no, that's not big enough. That's not significant enough. And it all matters.

It all matters whether you're part of the uprising and you're marching or you're writing letters or you're making phone calls or having conversations or perhaps you're talking to your children and having the talk with your white children that many black and brown parents have with their children. So it all matters and it is all part of the transformation that will take many more generations.

So you have to look up where you're at and see what you can do. Now that's going to be the easiest, necessarily, or comfortable. Those two things, uneasy and uncomfortable, probably point to where you could squeeze in and make an impact if you have access. And yet I think a lot of us

Well, I can see the desire in my own head, you know, as it pertains to meditation to kind of, you know, you said this before, but to kind of emphasize the good stuff, the feeling of being concentrated, the feeling of having goodwill or friendliness, all the goodies that you can get on the cushion. The hard stuff is less appetizing.

It is. But what is your practice inspiring you to do? That's a question I ask myself every day.

like this goodness that I've cultivated in my heart and I'm able to be kind to the lovely people around me and nicer. I'm so much nicer now to the neutral people in my life. Like I want to wave to them and know their name and the difficult people that are far off, I can imagine kindness and goodness to them as well.

But right here, where we're in this stew and something needs to change, I really have to look at what is preventing me, what is keeping me comfortable in a place where I know that action is needed. And what am I willing and able to do? And again, without judgment in this work, there will be missteps

I said to someone that if you stick your foot in your mouth, that's a good thing. That means your mouth was open. You were saying something because we know silence often is interpreted as being complicit. The question is what is my practice?

supporting me to do. How am I being transformed by my practice? When you say without judgment, do you mean taking action without judgment of yourself in that you're going to mess up? Or do you mean without judging other people?

Well, certainly, well, all of it. But yeah, judgment not against self. We have this tendency, I think many of us in this culture, we are conditioned, get it right. If you can't get it right, don't do it. Well, there's be a whole lot that we won't be doing if we wait to get it just right. We are building this as we go. So if we can, when we can, lean in, step forward,

with good intentions of understanding of being kind and patient, building bridges. And then we can also meet sort of the fallout, any unintended consequences from those actions with the same mind of kindness, patience, curiosity. So being willing to set aside the notion that we will get it right.

is a difficult one, particularly when we feel vulnerable, particularly when we are accustomed to getting it right or being the right one or holding the power. How about judging other people? Because it seems from where I sit, one of the pitfalls that I see people falling into, and I certainly see myself falling into it, is self-righteousness.

Yeah, that is a symptom of othering, right? So this conceits that we are better than less than equal to. If we are all the same, we will all make mistakes. We will all step into it at some point in time.

And it's a useful question to ask. All right, so you've judged them. You're better than them now. How does that help toward this intention that you set out with? So holding that intention center can be humbling because being right in a situation where you're genuinely trying to help someone, it's more difficult for that self-righteousness to blossom.

If the genuine commitment is to helping, to aligning, to closing that gap where othering lives. You've used a phrase a couple of times in this conversation that I'd love to hear you unpack. You've said a couple of times we belong to each other. What do you mean by that? Yeah.

We are responsible for one another. I have not traveled a great deal. My understanding is that the United States here in North America, we are one of very few cultures where we have moved away from this collective responsibility for one another. Other family systems that are

blended and caring for one another or even non-related communities.

I think in African-American culture, many of us have stories of visiting relatives and some relative we didn't even know just walked us when we were doing something out of line or even a neighbor of our relative because there is this collective responsibility for one another and we have grown to this extreme state of individualism.

What's yours is yours. You won't share. And I won't even help you get yours. I might point you in the right direction. Someone shared a cartoon with me the other day. It's a black utility worker who has a plate, no cookies, the older white wealthy man with a plate full of cookies, and the white blue collar worker

with one cookie on his plate and the wealthy man says to the his fellow white man, watch out, mate, he's going to try to steal your cookie. It's like, you have all of the cookies, right? We can care for one another. And this, this tug that we see right now that

This generosity, this care for one another requires a letting go, right? This renunciation of what I don't need, what I have in excess. But this conditioning is such that, that I earned it. It's mine. It doesn't matter if I need it. It's mine. I think in every religion there's some phrase, Mother Teresa says, if we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.

Ultimately, our responsibility is to be in tune with our own heart and our actions, our choices, causing constriction and tightness. It's usually greed, hatred, delusion. Or do we feel light, free, happy?

A teacher told me once that spoke of residue, like I didn't want residue. I wanted my actions to be clean, feel good. And then they said, there's going to be residue. The matter is, is it a unclean, sort of oily, dirty residue of being tight, of not being honest, of not leaning in where we had the opportunity?

Or is it a residue of like sunshine, right? Feeling good. So I try to go for a clean residue. Let's talk about this phrase you have that I like, compassionate agitator. What do you mean by that? Speaking truth, still with interest and care and respect.

So there seems to be this culture in Buddhism that we don't speak to directly things that are difficult or upsetting. And I can't really find a way around that if I'm involved in a conversation or in a situation and there's been a microaggression or heaven forbid, something bigger than a microaggression, how not to speak to that.

Assuming that it's going to make someone uncomfortable, the intention isn't to make someone uncomfortable. The intention is to help someone understand the impact of their actions. So, as an example, recently I was on retreat. I went on a solo retreat.

It was all set up so that I'd have no contact with anyone. Everything was arranged online. My kuti would be left unlocked with the keys. And yeah, I'd be able to have my retreat and never see anyone, which is great for an introvert like me. And I've been to this retreat center many times, and so I'm cruising down the driveway super slow.

soaking it all in, all the good memories. And I arrive at my cootie and I'm getting out of my vehicle slowly and startled to see a monk approaching me. No mask. So something's wrong, clearly. There's an unmasked monk approaching me, and this is a no contact arrangement. And he introduced himself, not by his name, but by his title. He was a junior monk.

and wanted to make sure that I was in the right place. Now, folks listening probably can recognize by my voice that I'm a black woman. I think I said that earlier. And so that had an impact on me. I suspect that he questioned that I may not be in the right place because I was black.

Even though I arrived at the precise cabin and at the precise time, they were expecting someone. And so that is a moment for compassionate agitation, right? I could be passive and respectful of the monk. It's like, oh, it's me. It's Stacy. I'm here. This is my cabin. No need to alarm you. Or I could name it.

or really just ask, why do you ask? Why do you think I am not in the right place? And so being willing to ask the difficult questions, again, with the intention of understanding how we got here, often mostly we're trying to point out how someone is wrong, where they fell off the tracks, where they're bad,

but really understanding with kindness and compassion. They have their own conditioning just as we do. And so we can push, push the envelope, push the edges. There's lots of different phrases. I love compassionate agitation because I could just be agitated and push. And so compassionate agitation reminds me that

There is care involved in this dialogue with this person whom I want to cultivate care and interest in. So how did it go when you asked him? Why did you ask me that question?

Well, I'll tell you the truth, Dan, I was so stunned. That is not what I said, right? So yeah, my own conditioning is to not scare people, not scare people, make sure everyone's okay. And so my response was actually the former. Like I'm Stacy, everything's okay, no need for a lot.

And then what came with that was this self reflection of, well, did you sell out what happened there? You're not a good blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But in the moment, and that speaks to how in the moment, our training doesn't always arise as our default response.

And I was able to arrive at some compassion for him as an Indian man. And this is the height of hate crimes against Asian Americans and, you know, the fear. So a bit of compassion, the fear that I imagined that he and his fellow monks were

We're grappling with him. Maybe they thought I was a black man, even more threatening, writing down in my SUV with my bald head and my smoked windows. You've referenced before sort of understanding your conditioning and other people's conditioning.

the circumstances in their lives, circumstances in their parents' lives. There's so many factors that lead up to what we do in right now. Yeah, I mean, when I'm at my best, I'm able to recognize that if I were in that other person's shoes, or in this case, if I was in that person's robe, given the same conditioning, I might well have done the exact same thing. And that's pretty humbling. And it does, for me, shave down on my self-righteous impulses.

And I think that's also another example of there's not that much distance between us in terms of our conditioning and how we respond to particular scenarios, environments. And when we can admit that, that this isn't personal. Oh, this isn't a character flaw for Stacy or Dan. This is human nature.

And we can reset our response to that conditioning when it arises and learn to be more patient, more forgiving.

But I'm even increasingly trying to be a bit more understanding of myself. You said a few moments ago that, you know, sometimes our practice doesn't show up as our first instinct. Well, I'm a little less concerned these days with first instinct and a little bit more concerned with second instinct. You know, like, okay, so fine. Yes. The lizard brain is going to get me to do a bunch of stupid stuff.

And, you know, I try to get better at not listening to all the terrible ideas of, you know, my fight or flight evolutionarily wired instincts might offer up in any given moment. I got to cut myself some slack and really fall back on some faith that my second instinct, my second thoughts will be a bit more evolved. Yeah, yeah. Well, that is the practice. The practice is not to become these perfect beings and all of our

old conditioned habitual ways of responding melt away. You know, I have friends that are like, oh, you went on retreat. Do you feel different, better? I'm like, it's still me, right? I still have the habit to be judging what I am becoming skilled at is recognizing it, recognizing those thoughts or even the words that they make it out of my mouth sooner and choosing a different course.

or when I have taken the path on fully of being sarcastic as is my tendency to stop myself and maybe even apologize. So it's not like, oh, I'm not that person anymore.

that there is greater intention, energy toward balancing those habits which are harmful or at least unskillful with something that is going to yield greater connection and understanding. Next time you come on the show, I want sarcastic Stacy to show up because I like sarcastic Stacy also swears a lot. I like that too.

We could be friends, and I kind of booed us. Anytime, anytime. Before I let you go, can you talk about these weekly truth and justice vigils that you've been running through the Common Ground Meditation Center in Minneapolis?

Yeah, so at the start of the trial, I was really interested in providing some support to Buddhist practitioners or anyone really who's interested, who's tracking the trial and wants to maintain some sense of balance and not get swept away in the heartbreak of it all. And also in talking with my friend, I.O. Youtunde, member of the Order of Freedom and created the Buddhist Justice Reporter

A group of writers who are reflecting on the trial and really wanted this companion piece because, like I said earlier, there's something for all of us to do. Some folks will be writing, some folks will be marching in the streets.

Others of us need to come together and talk on the cushion and be clear about how we can strengthen relationships and next steps. So we invited a number of African American Buddhist teachers from all over to come hold space on Tuesdays, every Tuesday from six to seven, 30 central time to support us and engaging in dialogue

As we explore our collective intentions, moving forward and also being willing to turn toward, unravel our habits, our conditioning that prevents us from leaning in and taking compassionate action where we can. Are these ongoing and if I don't live in Minneapolis, can I still join?

They are ongoing. I think we have teachers scheduled out through September. So every Tuesday we're on Zoom, you can visit commongroundmeditation.org and check out the calendar and you can see who's coming up to teach. What we also recognize is that while they are originally slated to help support folks during the course of the trial,

that now that we got one verdict and the preferred verdict for many, this work doesn't end. So I know that there's been lots of dialogue about whether this is a victory or there's finally justice. I think most people are willing to agree that at the very least there is some accountability and we have a great deal of work to do individually

as community collectively across systems to transform the way that black bodies are policed and how our biases and racist structures are enacted and causing harm. So we will continue to hold space until

All of the trials are resolved, and I hope, honestly, in some fashion beyond. I'm quite proud of Common Ground to be willing to hold space like this. I don't know that there are a lot of Buddhist spaces that are willing to step into it. It's not easy.

and it gets messy, and it seems it's clearly the way forward in claiming one another. And again, all of us can join. Everyone can join. You don't have to be in Minneapolis. You don't have to be black. You don't even have to be Buddhist.

be interested, be willing to engage in a conversation. So some sessions are a traditional teaching model where there's a sit and a talk and maybe some Q&A. More and more what's happening is that there are small groups, there are dyads, there's question and answer. There is

open sharing about what's gotten in the way and what it feels like to begin unraveling that tangle. Stacey, great job and it's great to meet you and I'm not being sarcastic. Thank you, Dan. Thanks again to Stacey. I really enjoyed meeting her.

This show is made by Samuel Johns, DJ Cashmere, Kim Baikama, Maria Wertel, and Jen Plant, with audio engineering from Ultraviolet Audio. As always, a hearty salute to my ABC News comrades, Ryan Kessler and Josh Cohan. We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus.

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