Heather Dubrow on Two Decades-Worth of Marriage and Money Advice, Prenups, Money Dysmorphia and More

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves.

So, take control of your finances by using a chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at chime.com slash MNN. When you check out chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees.

If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at chime.com slash MNN. That's chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress.

Banking services and debit card provided by the Bank Corp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. Members FDIC. Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible chime members enrolled in spot me and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if say you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that.

If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you.

I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look, yes, friendly, I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host, so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand. It's time for some money rehab.

We have...

Honestly, this episode covers so much ground, I don't really know how to introduce it. From having healthy conversations about money with your spouse, to money dysmorphia, and prenups, and investing, and fluzy clauses, and the real housewives arrest record, this conversation has a bit of everything. And that's probably because I'm talking to Heather Dubrow, who has seen it all. Heather is so refreshingly honest and articulate about money. And let me tell you, that is not always the case with people who are Hollywood adjacent.

Heather is an OG member of the Real Housewives of Orange County and an entrepreneur. She most recently collaborated on a line of capsule pieces with designer Susan Bender. Heather has been married to her husband, Terry Dubrow, who you might know from botched for 20 years. So as a newlywed, I really loved hearing her advice about having healthy conversations with your partner about money. But again, there is too much to love about this episode, so I'm just going to stop talking about it and get right into it. Here's Heather. Heather Dubrow, welcome to Money Rehab.

Oh, thank you for having me. So you obviously are financially crushing it right now, you and your family. But let's rewind. Was there ever a time where you felt like you needed money rehab? What was your relationship with money when you were growing up? Oh, yeah, for sure. It was a running joke between me and my dad, where he was explaining to me the concept of income and outgo.

Listen sister, it doesn't grow on trees. You know, I grew up in an upper middle class family. I had jobs to learn how to take care of myself, not because I needed the money. So that was very lucky for me. I'm very grateful for, I call my parents, patron of the arts, because I was always.

performing and so obviously was going to spend years struggling to do that as one does. But I have to say when I first moved out to California, I graduated Syracuse University and I was doing some acting gigs and I got flown out to California and I decided to stay out here and my parents were like, okay, if you want to stay in California, that's fine. You're going to have to figure it out.

And part of figuring it out, instead of being a waitress, I was a singer, so I sang at Disneyland, and I ended up putting together this big band that we performed, and that was like my waitress job for four years. However, during that period of time, I did what a lot of people in their 20s do, which is rely on my credit cards and rack up quite a bit of credit card debt in my early 20s. Do you remember how much? Oh yeah, it was $60,000. Damn, girl.

Yeah. And that was over the course because you know, like some months, the band did better than others. Sometimes I spent more than others. And I think also that magical thinking like, it'll all be fine and whatever. But luckily I started working as an actress and my first very big series regular job, the first check I got, I completely paid off the debt. And I said, I will never, ever have debt again.

Except for debt. That is good. Yeah. Business debt. That type of thing. Exactly. So how long did it take you to get out of 60 K? It probably took me three, four years to get into it. And Hollywood is one of those places where if you strike lightning, you could make a lot of money really quickly. The trick is to know what you're doing with that money because those jobs are also fleeting. So you have to be careful. I remember on the show that I'm talking about.

that there were other people on the show who were buying poor shows and big screen TVs, which were a lot of money at that time, and all these different things. And all I cared about was paying off my debt and making sure that I was living hand-to-mouth. I opened a Schwab account. I wanted to, before Boss Bitch was a term, I wanted to be that. I wanted to be financially smart. You know what wrote that book?

Of course I know. In those days, I'm 55. And this was 30 plus years ago. This people that I grew up with, especially women, even my parents who were super cool and all that were like, when are you getting married? Who's going to take care of you and all of that? Because that was the environment we were growing up in. And I was raised by very 1950s.

parents and that's what you did. You grew up, you've met someone, you got married and your kids and all of that. Yeah, I mean, even recently when I've had events, I would see parents come up to me and be like, yeah, yeah, I totally get this financial literacy independence thing. My daughter went to an Ivy League school, but really I just want her to find a rich man. I'm like, what the actual fuck? What era are we living in right now?

It's true and it's insane to me. I understand why I was raised like that because we're all products of our environment, but I cannot understand anyone. My oldest kids are 21. I was just visiting them. That's where I was telling you. I just got back from the whirlwind trip and I loved sitting with my son. He's studying abroad this semester and sitting with him and him saying to me, hey, so what do you think about and laying out different

ideas for what his future looks like and what he's interested in and a really thoughtful and he's nervous. He wants to be successful on his own. I love hearing that. I love that too. Do you feel like you've always had an abundance or scarcity mindset about money?

That's an interesting question. Yeah, we've had feasted famineers. Of course, when I was in that credit card debt and I worried sometimes about, you know, how I was going to take care of myself. I think we all go through that. But I think as a sentient being, as a married adult, I got married at 30. Even Terry and I have had those moments. We've talked about it publicly. We, I say we because we're in this together, but Terry had made an investment that turned out to be a huge scam.

and we had $2 million swindled from us. This is a long time ago, but at a time where, look, $2 million is a lot of money. I don't care who you are. Of course. It's a lot of money, but especially at that time, and what we took away, people would say to me, aren't you upset with him? Aren't you angry? And I would say, no, because our system of checks and balances completely failed. And I,

realized that I was doing the same thing that my mother had done in her relationship with my father and just assumed he was taking care of everything. It wasn't breaking any cycles at all. And so Terry and I sat down and I was like, look, we need to fix this. And this is our partnership. We've broken down.

What do we do moving forward? So even though that was a major loss, it was such a huge gain. And I truly believe, and I don't know if this answered your question at all, but I truly believe that happened to avoid something so much worse later on. So to answer your question, I feel like we are very grateful people and we realize how lucky we are and that we've done well.

So we do live in abundance in that respect, but in scarcity because we do think about how to be smart and safe, prepare for our futures and our kids' futures as much as we can.

Yeah, and I'm sure you still have some PTSD around that. That didn't happen that long ago, right? It was probably 20 years ago. But the thing is, I just don't want to make the big mistake. So how did you guys develop a better system of checks and balances? Do you know where all the money is? Oh, yeah, I handle everything. Oh, so does he know where the money is? No.

No, he is more on the investment side real estate. We do together. He'll locate properties and feel very passionate about a project. I will execute the project. So that's how we split that up. He's also, he's got a brilliant mind and he's very into finance and stocks and investments. That's his side of that. I handle literally day to day.

I pay every bill. I know where every dollar is. I am in charge of all of our LLCs and anything like that. Money can change dynamics in romantic relationships. We've all seen this. Finance can be such a huge source of tension in marriage. Do you feel like since that happened 15 years ago, you guys then developed more healthy communications around financial decisions?

100%. It really just reset us. We sat down and it was like, okay, this is fucked up. How are we going to never have this happen again? And the hubris of us to think that if it sounds too good to be true, it's definitely too good to be true. And it's also really changed the way you speak to our children, to always trust and verify. And even if you're doing a business deal with your sibling, you trust and verify. You must in every deal. But it really did reset us.

I think it made us closer, to be honest. The only time we ever fight about money, quite frankly, is he makes jokes that he thinks are hilarious about me on TV and interviews, you know, about my American Express bill or whatever. And he thinks it's so funny, but the truth is there's a faction of people that would assume or just believe that Terry makes all the money and

I just spend it all and that's dynamic and aren't I cute and all that kind of thing. I am aware of every dollar that comes in about what we spend, about how we spend, and I am not a frivolous person. That doesn't mean I don't like to shop and buy nice things. It means I'm not frivolous. I don't throw money away.

No, it sounds like you're really thoughtful about it. And I love this trust and verify idea because it is so important to trust. We don't want to be untrusting of our friends and family around business or finances, but we have to verify. So I think you should start going on shows and making jokes about his financial. I know it's just so dumb. It's like wife math jokes. It's definitely not lean into it sometimes, but other times I'm like, I work very hard for this family.

By now, as well as other ways. So do you guys smush all of it together or is there like a yours, mine, ours approach? Yeah, what's mine is mine. What's his is mine. Yeah, but when we first got together, I was a working actress. I made a very good salary. Terry was a plastic surgeon, making a great salary. So we had separate companies, basically. It took me, I think, 14 years to change my last name.

So I just got married and I feel like it's going to take me that long to change my last name. I mean, it doesn't matter. Like, you're having a kid. I would use his last name socially, but it just wasn't on documents. I didn't find it necessary, but we started out with separate accounts. And then we had one kind of community account. I feel like that we both put money into for, I don't even remember what, rent? I don't know. It very quickly devolved into it's just all of our stuff.

Have you guys disagreed on a big purchase or a big investment? I don't know. I wouldn't say disagreed. I would say like one sort of funny argument we had. So historically with real estate, Terry would buy these places and just throw these projects in my lap. So when we sold our Pelican Crest house, which was if you watch Housewives, it was the house we were when we first joined the show had a big double staircase and whatnot.

that we had built from the ground up. And so we moved out, we sold it, and we moved out, and he bought this other lot. And he was like, this is a great lot. You've got to build this house. It's going to do really well. And I said, OK, I'll tell you what.

I will build the house, but you have no say, because the last ground up, we had done a number of homes, but that was the first ground up home we had built. And I was nervous about it. And I made him sign every tile, every swatch, every everything, just so he signed off. And he really hated like 30% of the house.

I had also hired a designer that he wanted me to hire a very talented guy, but not exactly my style, very talented. So I felt like that house was never exactly what I wanted, not exactly what Terry wanted, but we still did well on it.

But here he throws this next project into my lap and I go, okay, here's the deal. If you want me to build the house or build the house, I'm not hiring a designer and you have no say. You can have say in the movie theater equipment and like the sound stuff other than that. And he used to walk in during the building process and be like, wow, the beams are so dark and I'd be like, out, out.

Is it sound? No, this is not a speaker, not your jurisdiction. No, bye-bye, not happening. And so I figured the algorithm would be about the same and he would hate like 30% of the house. He loved the house. He loved it so much. We actually stayed there longer than we've ever stayed anywhere.

And you probably saw that we sold it for the third highest sale in Orange County history. $55 million later, it was a very good investment and that was the best of us. He found the right place and I built it the way I envisioned it and those were the results. I think it's important to divide and conquer your chief domestic officer. He's chief sound officer. Just like in a business.

Is there a threshold of how much a purchase has to be in order for you guys to discuss it? That's so funny that you mentioned that. So there is a scene on Orange County House. It was years ago when I was first on the show and we were at a jewelry store and everyone was talking about how much they could spend without telling their significant other.

And I think at the time, I said like $10,000 or something like that. And everyone was like, oh, well, I don't think I would actually quantify it today. But I have a thing in my head about certain things. If I bought a purse and it was a certain amount of money,

I wouldn't discuss it with Terry, but for some reason, jewelry feels different to me. And I don't know why that is, but even if it was the same amount as the purse, I don't know that I would spend more than a certain amount on a piece of jewelry.

Without talking to him, I know that's 10,000, 20. Definitely more than that. This is not going to be a relatable conversation, but like an investment piece. Like an investment piece, but also there's something that seems like jewelry to me is romantic, I suppose. So I'd want him to give it or to be referred to be significant.

to something I've spent more on parties than I have on certain items of jewelry. But Terry doesn't understand what parties cost. So I would never include him in that conversation. One of the biggest questions for couples, new couples is to preen up or not to preen up. How do you feel about a preen up? Hold onto your wallets. Money rehab will be right back.

One of the most stressful periods of my life was when I was in credit card debt. I got to a point where I just knew that I had to get it under control for my financial future and also for my mental health. We've all hit a point where we've realized it was time to make some serious money moves.

So, take control of your finances by using a chime checking account with features like no maintenance fees, fee-free overdraft up to $200, or getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Learn more at chime.com slash MNN. When you check out chime, you'll see that you can overdraft up to $200 with no fees.

If you're an OG listener, you know about my infamous $35 overdraft fee that I got from buying a $7 latte and how I am still very fired up about it. If I had Chime back then, that wouldn't even be a story. Make your fall finances a little greener by working toward your financial goals with Chime. Open your account in just two minutes at chime.com slash MNN. That's chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress.

Banging services and debit card provided by the Bank Corp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. Members FDIC. Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible chime members enrolled in spot me and are subject to monthly limits. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details.

I love hosting on Airbnb. It's a great way to bring in some extra cash, but I totally get it that it might sound overwhelming to start or even too complicated if say you want to put your summer home in Maine on Airbnb, but you live full time in San Francisco and you can't go to Maine every time you need to change sheets for your guests or something like that.

If thoughts like these have been holding you back, I have great news for you. Airbnb has launched a co-host network, which is a network of high quality local co-hosts with Airbnb experience that can take care of your home and your guests. Co-hosts can do what you don't have time for, like managing your reservations, messaging your guests, giving support at the property, or even create your listing for you.

I always want to line up a reservation for my house when I'm traveling for work, but sometimes I just don't get around to it because getting ready to travel always feels like a scramble, so I don't end up making time to make my house look guest-friendly. I guess that's the best way to put it. But I'm matching with a co-host, so I can still make that extra cash while also making it easy on myself. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com. And now for some more money rehab.

How do you feel about a prenup? I feel like there used to be such a big stigma about it when we were getting married. It would have been like, but.

It does seem to me that it makes sense. You talk about everything before you get married, you plan so many things. Hope so. I mean, you should, right? But it really does seem prudent to have financial conversations. We never sat down and said, are you in debt? I knew I wasn't, but I never asked him that.

Did he have student loans or anything from, you know, he probably had literally $200 in student loan. It was such a low interest loan. He kept it till the very end. But besides that, he didn't have debt. But I didn't know that.

We never talked about that. I wish we had. It turned out fine. But I would caution my kids if they were getting married. I think I don't know enough about this kind of law to know what's what, because Laura waster and I have talked about this before. Have you been, has she been on your show? Yes, she's amazing. What a killer. But she also really emphasizes that you have a prenup, even if you don't sign a prenup, because the state decides.

Exactly. So you're agreeing to something without agreeing. But the question is, I think about inherited money. If you take part of your inherited money and you put it into a house that you're now living in with your significant other, I'm not really sure how that works. Do you get your initial investment back and the gain is community property? I'm not really sure how that works. How much are you going to inherit? How much protection do you need? Is there jewelry in the family?

that really should be kept in your family. If something were to happen between you, I don't know, things like that. I think there are things worth discussing. Obviously, our kids, unless we do something incredibly stupid, I would assume they'll be inheriting something. And I would want them to be protected. I would also want them to feel like whoever's marrying them is marrying them for the right reason. But I also, on the other side of it, I feel like,

People should get what they deserve and I certainly wouldn't want to hear a story of my child or anyone's child or any, I'm going to speak more for women entering into this marriage and getting totally screwed, raising kids and putting their career aside or whatever they've chosen to do for this family and then walk away with absolutely nothing. So you guys didn't have one.

No. So yeah, you're right. A prenup is a discussion. It can be a lifeline for one partner that's financially dependent on another. If the marriage doesn't work out, have to ask you about one of your cast meets Jennifer. She's been having some pretty public financial problems following her divorce. She apparently didn't know how the bills were paid or how to get a credit card or how those things were managed because her husband did it. I think that kind of financial dependence on somebody else can be a recipe for disaster or is that just me?

No, no, totally. She and I have talked about it before and was her friend. I just hope she's making smart choices to keep herself personally, financially sound. And I think that's just true of all women. I mean, you know, I used to hear people talking about having fuck you money, which I get, but shouldn't we have fuck me, you know, that kind of money, like,

It's like this. I heard Goldie Hahn on this panel. I don't know if you've seen this, but it's brilliant. She's on this panel and she's talking about women and financial freedom. And she said, the problem is we're set up incorrectly because it becomes like this.

I saw the stress and it's really cute. And I really would love to have it. And you see how my tone is changed and how I'm talking to my spouse because I want to be sweet to get this thing. It sets up such a terrible relationship between you and your significant other when you have to act a certain way in order to get things that you want or need.

from the relationship, whether it's emotional needs or financial things or articles of clothing or gifts or whatever it is. It's a terrible way to set yourself up. Everyone needs to be independent.

Yeah, I mean, we're also marrying later in life and we have our own assets. So I often advocate to bring up the uncomfortable conversation. Don't just hope that it's going to go away. And asking for a prenup was just insurance. You get insurance for your car. You don't think you're getting, it's not accident insurance, right? So I think that

Having control of that conversation is really important. So can you clarify, fuck you and fuck me money? It depends. I think everything is relative, but it's the conversation about how stay-at-home moms don't get paid, which is ridiculous. There should be money. If one partner is going out to earn, let's say, as the breadwinner, and one partner is staying home to raise the children, that partner should be, there should be money for that partner. Set aside.

that is theirs to do with what they wish. There should be money that goes to the household, money that goes to education, all these things. That's your fucking meaning. I can do whatever the fuck I want with this money. Or else you're set up in that story that Golden Han is talking about. And I'm nothing. I remember very well going from a full-time working actress making, I think I was making $60,000 in episode on that show. And this is 2002.

Wow. Plus reruns and decidules. Yeah. Not just residuals, but like other ancillary businesses that I was doing and getting paid for, whatever, I was making a lot of money. I went from doing that to being the full stay at home mom full time of twins. And it was and moving to Orange County. All of a sudden I watched my money go to zero because I did have investments and I did have all of that stuff, but I didn't have any

in flow. It was no more income. And so all the sudden it was out go. It was only out go. And it was like, now I'm set up in a position to what ask my husband for money or how much can I spend? It was very strange. And to your point, really could have changed

Our relationship does that make one partner more powerful than the other? What does that do to you? I hated it. I have to tell you, I hated not having my own money. Even though it was all our money and he never made me feel that way at all and was always valued what I did with our children and our family and keeping our whole family running and all of that.

But I hated it. And I can't say that I remember a specific conversation, but I do remember having multiple conversations about what our financial life moving forward looked like.

Yeah, it can be infantilizing. You have to ask for something or even use like a baby voice like Goldie was saying. So with Jennifer specifically, I was reading about their divorce settlement, and it's complicated as all of them are. It sounds like she's supposed to get 6K a child and a total support. Yeah. And then he was also supposed to pay a lump sum of 200K. Do you think that's a fair settlement?

not knowing what their financials are. I have no idea. It sounds very low to me. Honestly, considering I know they lived in a big nice house and took vacations, then they had a very nice life that seems low to me. I don't know their financial situation, but I just hope for Jen that she's got a great lawyer who's really doing all the forensic accounting and figuring out what she deserves. She using Laura? Not that I know. She should.

It's so funny. I love her. And we've known each other for a few years now. And we keep trying to make a lunch date. And she's like, you really don't want to be seen in public having lunch with me. That's fair. The rumors start. I'm like, why? Who cares? She's like, oh, no. Then the room remembers. I'm like, that's all right. I already say he's cheating on me. It's fine.

And with their agreement, I think spousal support would also end when she remarries and she's engaged. Do you think this is going to mean that she's going to take her time with wedding planning because of that? I mean, I can't tell you what's in her head. I can only tell you what I would do. But I personally, I wouldn't rush to get married so quickly. Anyway, regardless of this, regardless of that, I just think, what's the rush?

I would say this to any of my friends that are going into second or third or whatever marriages, especially when you feel like you're done having children. And not that I think you need to be married to have kids. I'm not saying that, but I am saying, what's the rush? You're an older person. And if you have found someone that you want to spend your life with, you don't really need a piece of paper.

the proof that you love each other and want to be together. Besides being engaged is so fun. That was like Terry and I always talk about like how being engaged was like one of the most fun years. In some of the coverage about the settlement, it says that if she starts making big bucks, like some of her co-stars, the amount of child support could be reduced. Do you think that she's making less?

than other cast mates in this world of salary transparency. I don't know who's got a salary transparency, but I will tell you that just like any other Hollywood production, people get paid different amounts. So not all the cast makes the same amount. No, definitely not. If you've been on one season versus 13 seasons, you're not making the same.

As you shouldn't. Do you guys talk about this or do you know who makes what? I have a general idea, but I think what I would tell you is the more senior cast member you are, the more you're going to make. You left, right? And then came back. Did you get more money for coming back? I would say that I am paid very appropriately to how long I've been on the show. So OG.

Yeah. And I'm okay with that. I'm not saying all of the salaries are what I think are appropriate. Do I think some people should be making more? Yes. But that's also just the nature of times right now, especially in Hollywood. Scripted shows, people don't make what they use to make. We don't get residuals anymore.

for things. It used to be back in the day, 20, 30 years ago, you could do a commercial and live for five years off the residuals of one national spot. That's not good. Those days are over. I do want to say I've always been with NBC Universal, always been, I think, paid well and bonest well and financially. I've never felt anything other than very respectful transactions.

Rebecca Minkoff is now real housewives of New York. She's been really honest about how she joined to bring in more business for her company, but some fans have criticized that. And she doubled down. She was like, no, this is really good for my business. Do you think that's for the right reasons or wrong reasons? I think it's 100% for the right reasons. I think it's fantastic. I think it is such a great platform. I didn't get this when I first joined because I was an actress. I was like, OK, great. My career is now over.

Can't do reality TV and all that. But the landscape of television has changed. And what I think is great is someone like Rebecca coming onto the show with an authentic business.

I am curious to see the inner workings of her company and what she does and how she runs her empire. I'm fascinated and runs her life. I would like to see all of that. What I don't like.

And this happens more often than not just on housewives, but on many reality shows is that people come on with these inauthentic lives and these borrowed clothes and these pretend businesses, or they come on to launch one of the common things. Like I always make a joke that it's like a trucker hat line, but you know, it's an alcohol. It's a skin care. So whatever it is, I am all for people making money. I am all for people using the platform. But I think two things, if you are someone

who just maybe wants to be famous, be on the show, show your life great. Be authentic, come in, let us get to know you, and then see what you can build off of that. If you're someone like Rebecca and you have already this super interesting career and you're willing to open up your life and show us everything, great! I think that's amazing, but authenticity sells, and I hope she does great on the show because I just love that she even said that.

Yeah, I agree. She's one of the few, I think, that has a real big business before going in. She was, by the way, one of the first guests on the podcast, and she was telling me about her prenup that she had with her husband, and she has something called a fluzy clause, where she's basically spelled out that if she dies and her husband remarries,

The money from her estate cannot go to the new wife or any of the children that he has with the future. Oh my god, I want that. Honey, we're going to get a bus stop. Hold onto your wallets. Money rehab will be right back. And now for some more money rehab.

There's also this new phenomenon called money dysmorphia, which you alluded to the fake borrowed clothes and the keeping up idea. It's when people lose sight of how much money is enough and how much they need to be happy. Social media obviously makes it worse. Do you think disproportionately a lot of housewives struggle with this idea of money dysmorphia?

100%. We're on TV. We're on camera. You want to look good. You want outfits for the events. And look, I took a lot of flack recently for talking about Jen Padranti's dress. So on our show, Jen, we were going to a little tea party.

And Jen had on this really beautiful dress and I was walking through Neiman Marcus a couple days later. And I was on the phone with Tamara about something else. And I came up the escalator and I saw the dress. It was white, yellow flowers, Dolce Gabbata. And I went, oh, that's the dress she was wearing. And I looked at the price tag and it was $2,000. So I said to you, Tamara, oh my God, that dress is fucking $2,000. And

She told this one. That one told that one. It got back to Jen and Jen was so pissed at me like, how dare I tell her what she can and cannot buy. And I said, look, you just told us you're making six grand a month and it's a $2,000 dress.

Of course, I think a third of your money. Yeah. Yeah. And she was like, well, that's just gossipy. I'm like, yeah, it's gossipy. It's also true. So I'll be honest, I've never actually seen a single housewife. I know I'm the only person on the planet. So I don't know all the scandals and I can't keep up on the drama. But I do know that there are a bunch of women who get into trouble financially, whether it's Erica Jane or Jen Shaw. We did a whole episode about that.

Why do you think they get into trouble financially more so? I think it's exactly what you're talking about. I think it's this money dysmorphia. Neverhood it put like that. But it's like what you're talking about with Instagram. It's all the same thing. It's the highlight reel on Instagram. Oh, they go to Paris. They're beautiful. They're working bags and all the things. And you're on a show.

You're going on TV. It's a projected image. Fake it till you make it. Put it out there. But it defeats the purpose of what we're doing. Now, look, I understand borrowing a dress for a special event like the reunion or

Robocon or you're going on watch what happens live or there's something like special. But if you need to do that on the daily for all of your outfits, that is not your authentic life. You are showing us someone different. That is not the, why are you on a reality show? It's about reality. So I don't know. I think that these women, they want to keep up with the Joneses or the DeBroses.

sometimes. And I think it's sad because I think they should know that they're enough and that what people want to know is who you are and that not everyone

And I don't begrudge anyone. I hope this doesn't sound right. I don't want to begrudge anyone wearing designer or having all those things, have it all. I hope everyone gets all of it. But the point is, it's always back to the authenticity. I don't wear knockoffs, right? If I can't afford it, I won't buy it. That's just my thing. I don't like it. I think it's copyright infringement. And I would rather buy some beautiful Zara something. But I think that people get very wrapped up

in wanting to be all of that.

Well, it becomes dangerous when you get into trouble financially if it just gets out of control. Speaking of social media, I was looking through some of your recent posts when I was prepping for this interview. And I was shook by how many mean comments there are on some of your recent posts. So it seems like, again, I don't know anything, but this season has been a hard one for you. Is that fair? I didn't really think so, to be honest with you, but I am between there's two friends that have a thing.

And I'm sort of between them. There's also another girl on the show who has been acting out a bit. And I am friends with her. It's a very difficult position. The audience likes to play Monday morning quarterback. And so the audience has the benefit of seeing everything.

where I don't see conversations that happened or things that happened or whatever. I'm just here living my life. I also don't believe in this team mentality. Like I'm on the

Shannon team versus I'm on the tamarit. I don't like this team mentality. Two things can be true. I can be friends with someone and not agree with the way they're handling a situation. I've tried to be honest with my friends about it and tell them how I feel about how they're acting. But sometimes the audience will go, Oh, you're on her team. So you're mean and

It's a little bit hard to navigate. My feeling is this, if you don't like something I have said or I have done or the way I have handled something, that is your opinion and if you want to put a comment about that, that is fine. If you don't like me because I'm sitting in the same room as someone that you don't like the way they are behaving, that I, you know. Does it hurt your feelings?

Yes, but I also know social media on our show accounts for 3% of our viewing audience. And so if you take a dive in it and you want to get upset about 3%, no, I'm okay at letting most of that go. And then also, do you totally believe all the good stuff they say when they're in love with you? And it's great. I just feel like

you have to realize that we are opening our lives. It also is entertainment and we're also all real human beings with families and spouses and friends. I just think those trolls, sometimes I think I feel sorry for them because I can't imagine the impetus of putting that kind of vitriol out

really typing something mean out and hitting send. I find so crazy. The karma hit for that. I love how rationally you think about this. It's almost like it's a data driven insight. 3% of the audience. So maybe I should give 3% or less of my opinion. I think that's a healthy way to contextualize something. It's emotional and hard to do. I mean, that is girl map. And look, I'm not always good at it. I am really sensitive. Everyone in the cast knows that about me.

But here's the thing, and I think the audience forgets this as well. So we film for three and a half months, we have three camera crews. So forever, the algorithm is something like for over 30 hours, we film 20 minutes, makes it to the air. Wow.

There's so much you don't see. And I'm not crying bad editing or anything like that. I'm just saying there's so much you just don't see. You're seeing pieces of lives. And also you could film someone for a year and make two very different films of their lives. You could show everything amazing they did and make them look like a hero or you could show like all their trips and falls and when they misspeak and make them look douchey. And the truth is we're all a little bit of all of that.

And am I having a bad season? I don't know. I came back to the show after a break because I wanted to be able to show our family with our kids and our family, different genders, different sexualities and try to start conversations in other people's homes. After this is my third season back and I threw a big event for family equality. I launched a sparkling wine where 100% of the proceeds go to family equality.

presented the GLAAD Awards and other things. So that's what I came back to do. That's what I am proud of. So for the things that are annoying or the 3% or even if it's 1% that think I'm having a bad week or even a bad season or a bad month.

I know how I show up in the world and I know what I've been able to do. That gives me a lot of pride. And I know when I see people out in the world what they say to me about their kids or their parents and what it's meant to them to have us on the show. And that's what I need.

That's what seems like it's driving you. And all this stuff you've seen it, we've all seen it. The public falling out, they pass. They always do. And I think you do remain one of the most beloved housewives in the history of the franchise.

trend that's going around the Mount Rushmore trend, Bethany gave her Mount Rushmore of Housewives. You are definitely, you should be on everybody's I think. That's so sweet. You know what's funny though, it's like I had this career, even though make fun of it on my show by the way, but I had this career. Well, I think of my life in decades, like I had this really beautiful actress

Decade, but that's all I was doing. And then I have four kids in seven years. So that I will consider that decade ish was transitioning legs out of acting and pregnant decade and then into this reality. And now I've had a podcast for 10 years, YouTube channel Terry and I've written three books together, done other shows together and I'm taking classes at the groundlings and I

I've become involved in this musical that I've worked on. All this really fun, so much fun stuff that I feel like I so appreciate you saying that. I don't need to be on the Mount Rushmore. I'm so grateful to be a part of this pop culture thing and the platform that's done for me and for my family. But when the time comes to move on and it does for everyone, I will be excited to do whatever that next thing is.

I love the way you think about it. It's so healthy and irrational. Would you have a Mount Rushmore of Housewives? Like who are your favorites? I don't think I'd be on it. I would probably choose like all the other Jews from all the cities. So I guess it would be a tough call between Vicki and Tamara, but because she was on first, I'll say it would be like Vicki and Teresa and Bethany and Nini. Do you watch another franchise? No.

Do you watch your own? That's the wrong. You have to watch your own because you have to see what everyone's saying about you. I did watch Beverly Hills when it first started because Terry and I were friends with Adrienne Maloof and Paul NASA. Paul and Terry are on botched together. We knew Paul and Adrienne years ago before they had gotten married. When she joined Beverly Hills,

We were like, oh, let's watch this thing. This is crazy. And we watched, I think, I don't know, maybe a season or two, but I've known Lisa Rinna for 30 years. I've known Gracell for years at no cut. Like, I, some of them off the show, some of them from the show. I feel like at this point, I'd rather just be friends with people in real life.

then watch the drama or have an opinion on it. Because there's something really nice, like you telling me you've never watched the show, like maybe some people might be like, wow, like thrilled. Don't watch. It's fine. Let's just be friends. Thank you. Let's please triple date. You mean Laura at lunch? Well, Warner husband. Where we go?

Heather, you're a delight. We end our episodes by asking Oliver Gas for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. It's a money tip, but it can be anything that's helped you maybe with financial health, saving, investing, negotiating, budgeting, shopping, anything. Right now, I would say buy Nvidia. Oh, have you bought Nvidia? Oh, yeah. At what price? Do you remember? I can't reveal that.

Oh, OK, I first bought in at $40. So that's great. We didn't get it at 40. So it's still going up. Yeah, it's still going up. But you know what? Here's the thing. It's like Apple. The people get nervous because it's at the all time high. All the stock pickers are calling it a generational stock. Are you a big trader?

Terry handles that stuff, but it's a conversation that we have. And we talk to our kids about stocks. We talk to our kids about investing. Please include your daughters in financial conversations and encourage children period in financial conversations. And I'm not talking about telling them how much money you have. Our kids do not know how much money we have.

That is not their business. That is our money and not for them to know. However, we do discuss what loans look like, what a PAL is, what buy, borrow, die, how we did our 529 plans and saved for their college educations. We high-fived each other all the time, but that one crushed that one. And just we talk about all of that with our kids. My son, Nikki,

He's not a kid who likes school, right? Each of my four kids are very different. Never liked school. He's very good at math, but he never liked school. And then I think in the eighth grade or something, Terry said to him, you need to think of math as like a game. It's like a puzzle. And all of a sudden, that started clicking and he started getting interested, but he hated school. And then one day Terry said, let me teach you about stocks. Are you interested in all in the stock market? And he was like, yeah, okay, Terry gets a whiteboard out.

and starts teaching him about sex and he was fascinated.

buy it. And then Schwab at the time, you could always check with Schwab or any kind of your financial institutions to see if they have any deals going on. Schwab at the time was doing a teen thing where they were having kids take this little course and if they got through the course, they got $500 in a Schwab account. So he took the little course and he passed the little course and he got $500 in a Schwab account and that started him on that.

And he loves it. He's so interested to talk to your kids. Yes, yes. And if you don't know it, learn it together. By the way, I always said that if you want financially literate kids, you have to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're financially literate yourself because they're watching you and all of your habits. And so when you say you don't share how much money you have with your kids, does that mean they're not getting any of it? They will. But you know what? It's funny because we were just learning about

We have the trust and we have all those things, but we sat down with some financial people who were telling us about how much you can leave someone tax-free when you die. And so we started out in conversations about that. I walked away with Terry and I go, you know, when I took away from that, we're not spending enough money. It's a great deal.

Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoy. Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab? And let's be honest, we all do. So email us your money questions, moneyrehabatmoneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me and follow us on Instagram at Money News and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content.

And lastly, thank you. And seriously, thank you. Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.

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