Hi everyone, I'm Hilary Kerr, the co-founder and chief content officer of Who Out Wear, and this is Second Life, a podcast spotlighting women who have truly inspiring careers. We're talking about their work journeys, what they've learned from the process of setting aside their doubts or fears, and what happens when they embark on their second life.
Today on the show, I'm speaking with Gwen Whiting, who is the co-founder of The Laundress and the founder of the new private members cleaning community, The Fill. There are so many common denominators between our second life guests, but one that always stands out to me is resilience, and Gwen has resilience in spades.
She co-founded The Laundress while working at Ralph Lauren and bootstrapped the company without any outside investment. She spent 17 years growing the brand, turning the brand's simple, effective and luxury laundry and cleaning products into household staples. In 2019, the company was acquired by Unilever, a move that Gwen hoped would expand the laundresses reach into homes across the country and the globe.
She stayed for two years after the acquisition helping the company transition, but she left when her contract was up. In 2022, she watched from afar, unable to comment, as the laundress recalled all of its products due to elevated levels of bacteria.
Before the incident, Gwen had no desire to ever return to the wonderful world of laundry, but after weathering that scandal from the outside and realizing how much she still wanted to help her core customer base clean better, she decided to get back into the game.
The result is her new venture, The Fill, a private member's cleaning community and collection of sustainable cleaning solutions. Every step of Gwen's story illustrates her resilience. She's weathered many different storms, and I am so grateful for her openness today. I think there are so many lessons that we can all learn from her experience. Now, on Second Life, it's Gwen Whiting.
Gwen, I'm so excited to have this conversation. So thank you so much for making the time for us today. Well, thank you, Hilary. I'm so happy to be here. Yay. Okay, good. So we like to start at the beginning. What did you study in school? And much more importantly, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up?
I studied apparel design at Cornell University. I was not allowed to apply to art schools per my parents. So I applied to every university that actually had an apparel program.
I love your work around here. And I was very lucky and honored to be accepted at Cornell because it was a real stretch. And when you were little, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up? I was very crafty. So I liked creating things and making things. And that's sort of where the clothes making and knitting and
to sort of tactile things came to me. But I didn't have traditional art skills. I wasn't an illustrator. I didn't have the best artwork in school. You weren't a sculptor. Yeah, I wasn't. What I've experienced is that you're either an illustrator or a designer. You're not always both. Anyhow, that's where my passions and interests were. My parents were very skeptical of being able to support myself as an adult.
with that career choice. Got it. Okay. It's so funny because it's like practical. And as a parent myself, I have a slight understanding of where some of that is coming from. But then it's also like, kids will find a way as you did. Yes, they had very low expectations and hopes for me put it that way. Okay. Well, then I'm sure they have been delighted to watch your career really surpass anything they could have imagined. Pretty much yes.
Okay, so you went to Cornell and then you went to work at Ralph Lauren first in women's design. Talk to me about how you landed that job. Did you intern? Did you just cold apply? Like what did you think you were signing up for or going after? So my connection to Ralph Lauren was in high school.
And we had to do a senior project, which is a two week work experience or some sort of project. And my English teacher knew that this is what I wanted to do. And he also knew that another English teacher in the department, fiance, worked for Ralph Lauren. So he set me up, made the introduction and somehow as a 17 year old high school senior, I ended up in the women's design department of Ralph Lauren.
Sure beats my working part time at the gap. That's amazing. Yes, I had this incredible opportunity and I took it very seriously and I found a friend there who kind of became sort of a big sister figure.
and kept me connected to Ralph Lauren. So that was my dream to go back and to have a real position in women's design after college. But I was so lucky to have such an early connection and relationship started.
I mean, it is amazing, but it's also really a testament to you that you kept that relationship going and then parlayed that into an actual job. So speaking of which, talk to me about that first job. Like, what does a newly graduated Cornell grad do at Ralph Lauren the first year she is on the job?
So right after I graduated, you know, all my Cornell companions all had offers and signing bonuses and, you know, moving to exciting destinations. And I, as a designer, of course, did not have any of those things. I had a friend offer me to tag along on a trip that he was planning. And so I flew to Egypt and backpacked to Moscow for the summer and spent the summer of 1998 living in Moscow.
Yeah, it was a little muddy. But I knew that I always was going to be a New Yorker. And so I knew that the minute I put down a security deposit, that was the end. You know, like that's all I had one go. So I really was sort of procrastinating, but I came home. It was time to get a job. And I was waiting for something to open up at Ralph Lauren and I took a job in women's scarves and prints.
And I actually talk about this a lot with the students that I mentor now, which there is a trade-off by taking the job to get your foot in the door, because then you kind of get in a track that isn't where you should be or want to be or belong. So that's really what happened to me. And a big learning lesson of, yes, I need a job, yes, I got my foot in the door, but then I was in the wrong door.
And then it's really awkward to get out of it. I didn't have the skill sets for print, layout, repeat. Like, I just didn't have those skills. Therefore, I was never going to flourish. But I also was struggling because to get a start in the design department is very specific. So you end up in wovens or knits or at the time of Ralph Lauren, it was like sport golf. You know, it was like so specific and that
seemed like such a commitment and very narrow. So I ended up leaving that job within three months. I fed access and application to international visa service and got a visa to move to London.
And I went to HR and I said, I'm so grateful for this opportunity. That's definitely not the right fit for me. I love this company. I want to be in the right place. I want to be able to give this company what I have to give, you know, and then I said, the door is open. And off I went.
And then I ended up with Ralph Lauren in London, ultimately, at the end of my visa. So open doors, good communication, building relationships from the beginning. That's pretty amazing. So that from London, when they were opening a new store, it was an enormous project. They were behind. The entire New York team was all hands on deck in London. It was almost insane time. Vice presidents were folding socks.
I had contacted them, but they weren't ready to hire anybody. But I only had a six month work visa. And so I got hired for like, I don't know, the last two months of my visa. And then during that opening period, I ended up folding sweaters with the vice president one day all day, telling my life story. And he's like, great, get in touch with me when you're ready to come back to New York. And I'll help you.
get connected to the right place. I love it. Okay. So Visa was done and then eventually you decide to come back to the States. Yeah. So I come back and I contact that person and he said, Oh, I just promoted my assistant. Why don't you come work for me while you figure out your next home? And I said, yes, I'd love to do that. You know, another gift. He gifted me a paycheck and a job and a seat and the trust to work with him.
And he introduced me to other departments throughout Ralph Lauren. And I interviewed for various jobs. And that is when I had an interview to work in home collection. And I met who became my boss. And he asked me what I wanted in my job. And I said, I want to travel around the world and be paid for it.
And he said, I expected you to say, I want your job. I was like, oh, OK. Whoops. Sure, that too. You know, I just started. I didn't know anything. I needed to learn. So that's where I ended up in a home design, home collection. And the best part about that is that I came in with my textile experience. And I was then in charge of the textiles for furniture, which was the division that
My boss ran and I had the skills, I got to use them, I got to learn more and hone them, but I also say that my undergrad was Cornell, my grad was at Ralph Lauren, I came in as an apparel designer, I graduated as a home designer. So that was very important to me to have an opportunity to be like learning on the job.
That makes sense. I also love the fact that to your point about identifying the right job, I do think that for the majority of humans, that's the most difficult piece. You have a concept of what you think you want and then there's often the advice of just getting the company and then you can figure it out. It's like maybe not necessarily. Yeah, there's a downside to doing that.
Exactly, because it's almost like the way that doctors do a residency. It's like you don't want to go down the path of being in pediatrics if you're actually a dermatologist at heart. And so it's like trying to figure that specialization out. I feel like is tricky, but to your point, like you had this great seat where you had a boss who knew that you were interested in different things. It allowed you time.
in the company to figure out where you wanted to go and then find the more fulfilling track in home collection. So talk to me a little bit about designing materials for furniture. What does it mean exactly? My team was designing the furniture collection and there was a Ralph Lauren fabric department, fabric by the yard. So part of it was curating the fabric that would be in the furniture collection.
some from the fabric department, some independent of. They were very big on leathers and other animal materials at the time.
So it was sourcing and creating those materials for collections. So you're kind of working with another parameters and sourcing under really tight timelines. And Ralph Lauren was very unforgiving with their timelines. So one of my greatest skill sets that I came out of there was this sourcing development but relationship building where these vendors were
you know, standing on their head, creating miracles for me. And it was very personal. Like they all loved to say that they worked for Ralph Lauren, but it was so much a personal connection that we were in it together. And that shared joy and accomplishment of producing something excellent. And that was one of the greatest skill sets I came out of Ralph Lauren with was that skill.
of getting things done with people and treating them like a team member and having that relationship. It's interesting because I think oftentimes, and maybe this is the masculine energy of corporate culture talking, but there's not a lot of emphasis on relationship building. It's seen as like a soft skill compared to like, how are you doing with this Excel worksheet or whatever it is?
But ultimately, it is so valuable because I find, and I don't know if you have found this too, but relationships matter, like industries are small. They're big, but they're small. And there are people who leave it, but there are also people who stay around for a long time and lots of capacities.
Like, don't burn bridges, figure it out. You have to be able to work with people because you never know how they'll come in to play. And I think that that is something that we do not always acknowledge. So it's really lovely to hear you say that and I appreciate it a lot. Oh, it's my like number one anchor of success too was taking that very seriously throughout my entire life.
That makes sense. Okay, so you spent five years about Ralph. At what point did you start thinking, you know, I don't foresee myself staying here in perpetuity? Well, I absolutely loved my job. And most people who love their job don't leave them.
But I had this idea for a better cleaning product experience. I told my boss about my idea, and he said, Gwen, that sounds like the laundress.
And a couple weeks later, I showed up at my desk and he had left me a photocopy of a course from the Learning Annex on how to start your own laundry mat. And it was my boss that sent me to my first class.
on laundry because of that class. I got a notebook and I started getting my ideas down on paper, but really the biggest part of that act was that he believed in me. Yeah.
And he believes in my idea. I mean, it's permission to keep moving and a vote of confidence too. Yeah, like a traditional work experience. That doesn't happen. Your boss isn't like, go fly that time at Ralph Lauren informed me so much on how to be a leader, how to be a boss. What leadership really looks like. I mean, all of those things were such incredible training.
Yeah, okay, so you go to the learning annex, you take the class, you have your degree in textiles, but like what was sort of like the driving pain points or issues that you saw that made you interested in this?
So as investing in my wardrobe, which even that massive discount was still expensive, a pair of jeans were now over $100. And I was like, these have to last. So I knew that a dry clean was expensive. It was not great for your fabrics.
And it was also toxic. So the alternative was like tied or wool light. And I was like, none of these are fitting the model for my raw fluorine cashmere sweater. So the US detergent market was built on a one size fits all. It was a very huge gap.
And the scent structure was all over the place. So one company made the turgent, another company made a softener, another company made a stain, another company made a starch, on and on and on. So I didn't come out of this like with a Harvard Business School brief of like, I'm looking for a company to build like, Oh, here's the white space. You know, it was like, this is a real open mess. Like there's nothing here. I'm going to make it. And that was it.
From there I went. I did take at Cornell a business curriculum. I wrote a full business plan in college. That's the same textbook I used to build the business plan for the laundress. It was like a real business plan like 30 pages. And it was a masterpiece because I followed that plan like to the tee.
Building something like that is intense. So you started the process in 2002. Yeah, I incorporated it in 2002 and launched in 2004 and it was everything from legal and the SBA loan and so all the nitty gritty
business stuff plus the creative. I wrote every piece of copy. The artwork was created by friends of mine who blessed me with their time and their talent and the fragrances and everything, the entire brand, two years. But I was doing it like morning and night and with my day job. I went to the library. I didn't even have my own email account. Everything was done on my phone account.
I mean, like, the idea of having laptops and tech at home, like, it wasn't really a thing. I was reading, like, a book on which kind of corporation to be on the stairmaster. Like, I totally understand this. Okay. So,
Two years of development, $100,000 small business loan, a full business plan. What was your elevator pitch and what was your offering? Like how many products? Yeah, I never actually had an excellent elevator pitch because you're building something we didn't have. Exactly. It was creating a category.
And at the time, I didn't call it that, but that's what it was. Right. So there was no elevator pitch for it. So it was a premium developed product. And I developed based on luxury principles. I was a luxury designer with Ralph Lauren. So there are key principles on luxury.
use the best materials, use the best craftsmanship, you use the best know-how, you know, you're not mass producing. It's like with real care and concentration. And I wasn't trying to compete with Tide at a grocery store. So I didn't care about that competition and that shelf. I was like the third rail.
I wasn't dry cleaning. I wasn't tied. I was this other. And it wasn't just a pretty bottle that smelled good. It was the real deal. I very much created concentrate as a norm that was not done when I started.
But I was like, I don't want to put 80% water in this. This is ridiculous. Now I want full concentration. I want this transparent bottle. The manufacturer is like, are you out of your mind? People can see what's in there. And I was like, yeah, yeah. That's the point. I don't want anything that doesn't need to be in there. Only the best thing should be in there. But it was the complete opposite of what was out there. It was formulated specifically for its function and for its fabric.
It was a hard sell, and I came out with about 16 SKUs. That's where the SBA money went. I launched at a trade show in New York City with a first run of stock, so the money went to that.
and just started selling from there and it was very interesting the customer adaptation of the linen store buyer in the south and the one department store in the UK and very early on
International got it because they don't have real dry clean societies that we do. So it was wholesale. Was the model not direct to consumer not online? It was actually everything. We had to sell what we had.
And so the internet was alive. It just wasn't a traditional place for commerce. And it certainly wasn't a place to sell liquid detergent. But we had product to move and we needed to find customers and we were getting pressed. And even at that time,
the press would say, oh, but we need a national retailer. And I said, we don't have one, but we have our website and we can ship to anyone nationwide. And even that was a pushback. But that enabled us to get national press and say, no, we can ship anywhere. So it was really launched as both
wholesale, direct to consumer, and the third was our international business that came really quickly where we ended up with international distribution partners. That is wild and amazing and also so cool too that there was that press acceptance very early on. Do you think that's partially because you had that interesting like fashion to entrepreneur angle?
Yeah, there was a connection with fashion, but it was also at the time when the power of the magazine, like real simple was the Bible and I was a laundry expert. So it wasn't just like featuring a bottle on a roundup page, it was know-how, how to wash a sweater.
what you have to dry clean, how to do with silk and synthetic. Oh, it's smelly sport, bring around the collar. So I had actual solutions, know how that then accompanied the product. So it was very different than just getting a product placement and being like another face cream on a page. Yeah.
It's so funny because it's the actual dream like from an editorial perspective interesting backstory interesting product founder actually has know how and can give expert advice like that's the dream that's like very easy storytelling. Yeah, I'm wondering at the same time you didn't take outside investment. I understand that the VC world and private equity world and the D2C boom was like.
still years to come. Were you specific about not wanting outside investment? Was that strategic or was that like a lack of options at that point in time? And plus like we all know the stats on like startups and female founders and 3% of all funding goes to us. Now we do. Now there's a conversation but then 2004 and I was talking about it. Yeah. But this was 2004. It was cheaper and easier for me to fund my business with a credit card and
There is a reason the financial crisis happened in 2008 because I amassed a quarter a million dollars of credit card debt casual to fund my business. So luckily I didn't go down in 2008 with the crisis, but there is a reason that happened. So that's how I chose to fund the business. And the very few meetings I did have with the money men, did they say, let me ask my wife,
let me ask my girlfriend because I got bad a lot. You got all that. Yes, yes, yes. I was like, this is not an option. And it was self protection, but also, you know, when you have the guy who's like handing your detergent, like, oh, my wife is going to like this. But I'm like, oh, so, but you know better than me. You're going to grow my business. I don't think so, pal. Yeah.
I got it. So at what point were you like, all right, it's time for me to actually quit my day job. I was burning the candle on both ends and I obviously had a very generous boss, but I could only keep up that pace for so long. So I launched in March and I left by the end of the year. That's still a good cushion you gave yourself.
Yeah, I mean, but I didn't have anything to fall back on. I had such conviction and belief in the mission that I never considered that it wasn't going to work. That was not an option. It was never an option. And I just kept true to marching that be of, you know,
making it happen, but without ever sacrificing any brand integrity and sticking true to myself and what I believed in. Building a business you were proud of. Yeah. And for all those years, it was hard. I mean, it sucked. It was grueling. It was physically damaging, mentally damaging. But I knew that I had a greater potential in myself.
then staying out Ralph Lauren and clean it safe.
Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to skip ahead. We're fast forwarding to 2017. At this point, you have been running the business for 15 years. You had grown significantly without any outside investment. We're talking about 30% year over year organic growth, $25 million in annual retail. You had expanded categories as someone who ran my company for 16 years before we had a sale.
Where was your head at that point? Because like acquisition is kind of the gold, but where was your head? And at what point in time did you start thinking like, I'm ready for the next stage of this?
So the business plan was built that the brand would sell like in three years or something because that was the examples of new innovation in 2002. Bobby Brown, hard candy, that was the role model. But that was just, oh, that's what happens. It wasn't like, oh,
I'm playing the lottery. Like I was in like, oh, I can't wait to get rich quick. Like that wasn't the point. The point was is that that was the examples. So then you think that's what happens in this space. We were category adjacent. We weren't a beauty brand. And I have never fit in a box ever. And I still don't.
So I was just like, oh, I guess I can fit in that box. But I really was focused every year on the year goals, living in the moment, also just getting through the day, getting through the week, getting through the quarter, but very focused year over year. I didn't have this like, oh, I can't wait to exit. That was not playing in my mind. I was very focused on the moment and on the brand. I didn't get my power to the money. I gave my power to the brand.
So having said that, 30% you're amazing. People would love to have those kinds of numbers, but it's still hard. It's like your abs and flow, your debt and pull of in and out cash flow is just larger. I say I was in the longest startup ever. I went from startup to exit. Like there was no in between. Like the numbers grew, but the sense of on the brink never went away.
I don't think it does. Yeah, it's like your problems just get bigger, the debt gets larger, like 30%, but the Chase Bank was like, that's so cute, but we'll fund you for 15. No one was ever going to make you whole or make you right. It was difficult. So when Unilever walked into my store, so I did open a retail footprint that was on the business plan,
Towards the end, they walked into the store and started conversations about acquisition. So that's what activated the timing. We had never had a pitch deck. You know, it didn't need one. I wasn't pitching anyone. You know, so my house was squeaky clean and I run like the most buttoned up business ever in every which way, but we weren't prepared for an exit journey.
Let alone with such a massive company and, you know, for anyone who hasn't been through a liquidity event, you have to prepare insane amounts of information and documentation and plans and, like, really open up the closet door. Yeah, pulling your pants down is what I say. It's very violating.
It is because it's like not guaranteed that there's going to be an outcome. So you're like showing everyone what you're doing. And then in theory, they could just steal all of that information. And that happens all the time. Exactly. You are so vulnerable. I just want to take a minute because you signed the papers. Unilever has just acquired this business of yours that you have been building for all of these years. That is a massive
massive moment and a huge milestone. How did you feel? Because like when our company was acquired, I was obviously deeply hands on and involved in it. You can't tell anyone what's going on. You can't tell your employees. So you're already isolated. Yeah, it's hard. My husband was out of town for work and it was in the middle of the pandemic. So like we get off a zoom.
And then it's just done and I can't tell anyone and it doesn't feel real and I like cried too because it's bittersweet even with something great. There's still pain. It is so loaded. Anyway, I never had that like champagne popping moment. Did you have that? No.
I was so relieved. There was a lot of pressure and dynamics and that was a good thing to move on from. But at the same time, you know, it was so painful and I was worried about my employees. I was worried about my partners. And so I felt this immense responsibility that I struggled, you know, to this day with what happened to my brand was Unilever and I feel incredible sadness and
remorse and accountability and responsibility for things that happened because of my choice to sell. It's hard. You know, I had a very trusted employee and dear person that I had to let go for legal purposes in that transaction and I bawled my eyes out. That was one of the most painful things. It's so complicated because
It's such a personal win, but there's so many sacrifices and consequences that go along with it. It's not an easy thing to do. Even a perfect outcome still has uncertainty and pain and concern that is associated with it. And I don't think folks are always ready to hear that because they just want you to be like, Oh, it's amazing and great. Yes. And.
Yes, and I think what people don't really comprehend is the enormous responsibility or how seriously I took my responsibility of my brand. I employed people. My success is affected.
factories and, right, a store in Japan and Korea and teams in Italy. There's enormous responsibility. And on top of that, my product was in hundreds of thousands of homes all over the world. Like, that's a huge responsibility. And I took that responsibility very seriously. An intimate relationship. Very intimate. I was washing our clothes. That was serious business.
So you stayed through your two year contract and then you left. How did you feel at that moment? I mean, I was fighting so hard to keep the roof on. Like, you know, labor was a disaster. They didn't have a plan or a system. The president of the home care group left within months of our acquisition. And it was his choice. So then we were like the stepchild that no one wanted because new guards not as invested in old guards investments.
No one cares. I mean, the US president was like, this isn't my problem, not my brand, and focused on mannees. You know, it was like, great. Thanks for that. You know, so we were in no man's land unprotected, no help, no resources. And then people who don't care and don't know being assigned to the brand, you know, and it was like begging for help to the new president. And he's like, I don't have time for you. Sorry.
Like, okay, and that's what happened. So it took them not very long to completely implode the business. Let's talk about 2022. I remember hearing this because we are a laundress long time standing family.
that there was a statement that was issued letting customers know to stop using the products in their possession because they had, quote, identified the potential presence of elevated levels of bacteria in some of our products that present a safety concern, which is so a thousand percent the opposite of what you have spent so much time and love and energy building.
And on top of that, you had a non-disparagement clause in your contract, so you weren't able to speak about it in any sort of candid way, which has now since changed, so there's that. But had you emotionally detached at that point, and you're just like, yeah, I saw this coming, or did it still hurt on a personal level?
It hurts on a personal level forever. I mean, for me, it was horrifying. I found out because my friend texted it to me while I was getting my hair done. And I was unsubscribed from everything, so I never saw anything. But it's still like I will forever be the founder. And I'm embarrassed by the company. I'm embarrassed by the brand.
I'm embarrassed that that was my choice and this partner that I believed in or I drank the, you know, they were Kool-Aid, that they were amazing and believed in sustainability and believed in healthy living and all of these things that they have on their corporate page was not true, but I had no control. You know, they totally ruined the brand and
behaved very, very badly and screwed everyone. Yeah, that would be traumatizing to put it wildly. So, you know, when people go through really difficult and traumatic situations, they either shut down and are just like, nope, disassociate, not going to be a part of it, or they're like, let me get back in the ring.
you decided to get back in the ring or into the laundry room. Yeah, so I had a five year non-disparaging clause that I didn't even really know. I mean, of course, I knew at the time, but I never in a million years expected to exercise it. I just knew I had a non-compete, my non-compete cross category, also into personal care and beauty, which at the time, you know, you're kind of
have your hands tied behind your back in negotiating. But I had zero interest in making any CPG product ever again. So I was like, whatever, like, I don't want to do it. I'm so out. So done. Next. But the disparaging was significant because people are reaching out to me in panic.
customers in panic, pressed looking for information. And I had nothing good to say. And what I wanted to say and would have said could have gotten me in trouble. The truth would not set you free. Exactly. So I needed space.
I need space from 20 years of my life and to actually create space and sit in discomfort and make a transition is very hard. Yeah, because we think productivity is like a sign of well-being when actually it's masking and giving us distractions so we don't deal with the feelings. And not rushing into something.
That is a big thing. A lot of people just jump right into something and just to fill a time or space or a gap. And that's not usually helpful. And I was really excited about some other projects I was starting to work on and some very, very big ideas that I was
you know really do I have it in me to go that big you know these are concerns of mine and then when it was clear that what I built was never going to exist again in any way shape or form recognizable then I was like okay I've got unfinished business here I got to get back in the laundry room game on
Like, I was not planning on that. I was not chomping at the bit to clean again. You know, I was looking at building women's wellness clinics, like not laundry or cleaning, but the overwhelm of having to write a wrong and to put my beautiful products or what I create back into the universe that made so many people happy and clean,
So back I went into the laundry room. So what was it like working on a new project in this category with all of your experience? Because I think that sometimes the lack of experience is such a benefit when we're starting something because we don't know what we don't know and we don't know how hard it will be or there won't be like certain issues and you have the gift of
being able to think in a truly innovative way because you don't know what the standard practices and customs are. On the flip side, when you know where some of the pitfalls are and where the time suck is and all of that stuff, you can navigate it so much better and so much more effectively and efficiently. What was your experience like and tell our audience a little bit about the launch of the film?
So it was very interesting to go back and recreate, reimagine this concept 20 years later. And as a person where I am now, and where I was then, and what was important to me, all of my ethical and personal principles still exist.
But what do I want and need differently now? And the laundress was the first company brand product orientation to bring fine fragrance into laundry. The orientation for the fill club is that we can have products that work even harder for us.
On their own so if we're cleaning all right let's get more out of it let's get that aromatherapy benefits that are subconscious as well. And you know you're cleaning your countertops and you're getting that benefit from the oils and you're washing your laundry and your sheets and you're sleeping in that and getting that.
grounding and empowerment throughout the day and all of these extra benefits that you can get. So you should because it's like a bonus. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. One of the parts that I find so interesting is that it's membership based. So talk to me about that and why this like more community oriented aspect was important to you in building a second company.
So going back to my relationships and the partners when I started picking up the phone and making calls and saying, am I crazy? What do you think? And over and over and over every former person.
is like, I'll do whatever you need. I'm there for you. Like, this is personal. So building was so easy when I made one phone call and everyone was like, game on, we're here for you. We'll do whatever it is you need, which is very unheard of, especially when you're creating new stuff and
You're a small client and, you know, you're not a star new client to come in. You're Dini in there. They're taking a risk, but they also could be backing the next big thing is the hope. But it was personal. It was personal. And so that made the development and the timing and all of that so easy and fun, fun for me to be reconnected and to be
creating together. And I also had, you know, very old formula. So it was easy to improve 20 years later as well. And, you know, really activate change. But I also wanted a different business model. I did not want to build a giant CPG brand. I did not want to be anywhere in your laundress business style at all. I just wanted to make the best products.
and have this wonderful, like-minded community find as many of my people from the past who knew me, and from the future who didn't, and just provide this incredible care, and not wanting to have the wholesale and Amazon. Omnichannel craziness. Yeah, just the nonsense of all of that.
and just have this really small trusted safe space cleaning community. And not having to bombard people with emails and this and that and social media and paying for clients and like how commerce has gotten so out of control with all of these like funded VC brands. And I don't want to harass people. I just want to find my people and have this beautiful safe space for them.
to provide solutions and content. And now I know how is only for my people, only for the people in my community. So I'm bringing it back and I'm happy to share with anyone, but in this wonderful confines of the club. I love it. So what are you most excited about this time around with this new venture?
I'm just excited to be interacting with my people again and I love this connection and I love helping people and making beautiful product that enhances other people's lives and that's so rewarding. That's really all I care to do for the Phillip Club is just make people more fulfilled.
Well, I'm so excited. I feel like there's still such a white space for what you're offering, and it makes me more excited than ever. And also, we love a second time founder. Doing it differently. Very differently. We learn we grow.
So one of the things that we like to talk about on this podcast is mistakes because as we have already started to get into, we all make them. And I think it's important to talk about some of them because it shows people like,
you can make a mistake and come back from it or learn from it or evolve from it. And it doesn't have to be this thing where you just like pack up shop and don't think about things again because I think women have a hard time with mistakes. There's the sense that like we have to get it right the first time, get it right always. And that's just not true. So in the hopes of normalizing, making mistakes and learning from them, I'm hoping you can tell me about a mistake that you have made at any point in your career and what you learned from it.
I wish that I had better boundaries set up for myself and protected myself more. I took a lot across the chin instead of being a bit stronger and more protected with boundaries and things like that.
Sensing there is a lot more to that, but we're not going to get into it right now. Okay, so I also always love to ask because a lot of our listeners are interested in having a second life, whether that's changing from one industry to another, the way that you did, whether that is staying in their same industry, but taking on a different aspect of it.
As someone who's clearly comfortable with change and has made changes repeatedly throughout your career, what advice would you give someone who's standing there thinking about doing the thing or making the leap or whatever it may be, but they haven't. They're scared. They're nervous. They're not sure quite yet. What would you tell them?
I followed my gut so much and with conviction that I think it's important to really trust your gut and your intuition and getting older and losing a parent. Like I have real perspective on you got one shot and this is your one life and
you know, would you looking back be disappointed that you didn't do it? That's like a really good temperature test. Okay, so last question is my favorite question, which I know you kind of answered, but if you could go back and tell your younger self at any point in your career some advice aside from yes, have better boundaries in a variety of ways. Is there anything else that you would tell your younger self?
Yes, I wish that I had more people on my team on my side looking out for me personally. I have three women practitioners that I see in New York that are there for me and my health and they care and I wish I had people like that were them specifically back then who I knew were taking care of me and had me in their best interest and
really on my side. It's an interesting thought, but when we talk about building team at work, we should also be talking about building team in whatever capacity that means for ourselves, because if you're founding something or working on whatever it is, you have to have the care for yourself too. It's like put your own oxygen mask on first sort of idea.
Community and relationships, it all goes back to that, right? Those soft skills that are actually more important than some of the hard skills. Well, Gwen, this was such a pleasure on so many levels. Oh, thank you. I have just loved talking to you, and I have followed your career for such a long time. It's truly a pleasure getting a chance to sit down and hear about it directly from you instead of just reading about it. Oh, thanks, Hillary. Such a honor to be here. Thank you.
That was the founder of the Phil and co-founder of the Laundress, Gwen Whiting. For more inspiring interviews with women like Gwen, head on over to secondlifepod.com where we have so many more for you to peruse. If you like today's show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us.
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This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Claire Schmidt. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.