Getting Stuff Done - the budget and coalitions
en
January 29, 2025
TLDR: Discusses Scottish politics, focusing on recent budget negotiations between the Scottish government and the Liberal Democrats, coalition dynamics, budget analysis, NHS challenges, National Care Service controversy, and Labour's strategy against Reform UK, with a focus on the implications of coalitions, effectiveness of current budget, and accountability of political leaders.

In this episode of the Holyrood Sources podcast, hosts Calum Macdonald, Geoff Aberdein, and Andy Maciver engage in an insightful discussion with Alex Cole-Hamilton, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. The episode focuses on the complex landscape of Scottish politics, particularly the recent budget negotiations involving the Scottish government and the Liberal Democrats. Here's a summary highlighting the key discussions, insights, and implications of the episode.
Key Discussion Points
1. Current Political Landscape in Scotland
- The episode explores the dynamics of coalition politics in Scotland, especially in light of budget negotiations between the Scottish government and the Liberal Democrats.
- The rise of the Reform Party is acknowledged as a significant factor impacting party politics in Scotland, reflecting a shift in voter sentiment away from traditional parties.
- The podcast emphasizes the necessity for political engagement and collaboration amidst these changes.
2. Budget Negotiations and Priorities
- Alex Cole-Hamilton outlines the Liberal Democrats' contributions and concessions in the budgetary process. Key highlights include:
- Focus on Health Services: Investments aimed at addressing neonatal abstinence syndrome and support for babies born with drug addictions.
- Education and Skills Funding: Allocation of funds to enhance college education relating to skills crucial for the economy, especially in renewable technology and social care.
- Infrastructure Improvements: Commitment to improvements in local healthcare facilities and significant investments in health infrastructure.
3. Handling Challenges and Political Collaboration
- The discussion reflects on the challenges political parties face in a shifting electoral landscape, including the Liberal Democrats’ role in the current minority government setup.
- Cole-Hamilton remarks on the collaborative spirit in budget discussions, emphasizing the importance of 'grown-up politics' in effecting change for constituents, despite existing political differences.
- The hosts debate the potential political benefits and challenges following the budget agreements, particularly concerning the Liberal Democrats' future strategy against rising opposition parties.
4. The NHS and Public Service Issues
- The conversation touches on the ongoing challenges within the NHS, including long waiting times and systemic failures that need urgent addressing.
- Critics highlight that discussions about the NHS often become politicized, and concrete solutions are required rather than just political rhetoric.
- There are pointed discussions about how effectively the Scottish government has managed its healthcare commitments and whether recent proposals, such as for national treatment centers, will materialize.
5. Addressing Shifts in Voter Sentiment
- With rising numbers gravitating towards parties like Reform UK, Cole-Hamilton discusses the Liberal Democrats' strategy to appeal to voters disillusioned with the main parties.
- Emphasizing a message of hope and practical solutions, the podcast suggests the significance of reconnecting with voters through transparency and accountability in political actions.
Insights and Takeaways
- Political Collaboration is Key: The episode underscores that efficient governance in a minority administration demands political parties to engage constructively across the aisle.
- Voter Perception Matters: Understanding how voters perceive the effectiveness of parties, particularly in light of the SNP’s current standing, is crucial for both strategy and communication moving into the next elections.
- Healthcare Reform is Vital: There is a consensus that the healthcare system requires not only funding but also innovative solutions that reflect the actual needs of the population.
- Future Implications for Political Dynamics: The rise of alternative parties necessitates that traditional parties adapt and respond effectively to retain voter support.
Conclusion
This episode of Holyrood Sources provides valuable insights into the intricacies of Scottish politics, particularly regarding coalition dynamics and the ongoing challenges faced in public service delivery. With the upcoming elections on the horizon, the discussions reinforce the need for political accountability, strategic messaging, and a concerted effort to address pressing health and economic issues facing the Scottish people.
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Hello and welcome to the Hollywood Sources podcast, where we take you inside Scottish politics. I'm Calla McDonald, and here's Jeff Aberdeen, who was Chief of Staff to the First Minister, Alex Salmon. Hello, Jeff. Good morning. And also with us Andy McKeever, who was Director of Communications for the Scottish Conservatives. Hello, Andy.
Good morning. Great to be with you guys. On the podcast today, Anna Sarwar makes a very deliberate attempt to win potential reform UK voters to Scottish Labour. We'll talk about that. Also, the NHS recovery plan outlined by the first minister, which has come alongside the scrapping of the National Care Service, one of the SNP's main policy focuses, really, of the last few years. We'll talk about that, too. And the Scottish government budget will pass.
More on that coming in the next couple of minutes. Don't forget you can watch all of this on YouTube. Just search for Hollywood sources where we upload clips and full episodes for you. Head to YouTube, subscribe to our channel there for all the updates, and you can follow us on X, watch clips on TikTok, and you can subscribe to our mailing list at hollywoodsources.com. On our last episode, available for you right now on YouTube, former White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci, who told us that Donald Trump will hurt the first minister, John Sweeney.
if he gets too close to him. You can have a watch. Let's do what you think. You can watch at us all triple three, four, all four, six, five, all seven, right? The Scottish government has got the Scottish Greens and Lib Dems on board to pass its budget.
The Finance Secretary Sean Robson will table a series of amendments to the budget bill to meet the demand of the two parties. The Greens pushed for an expansion of free school meals to S1 to S3 pupils who receive the Scottish child payment in eight council areas. The Lib Dems, well, they'll tell us themselves. We're joined by the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, Alex Cole Hamilton. Morning. How are you going? Yeah, very well. Thanks. Good to have you on the pods.
We'll talk about your success on the Kamala Harris campaign before we let you go. Let's start with the budget, shall we? Just outline for us, Alex, what you've got, what have you secured in this Scottish government budget, which means that you can now support it?
Well, there were two baskets, if you like, one of which was revealed today, which comes on top of the rather significant set of wins we got in the draft budget in early December. Covering what came yesterday, we pressed very hard for big money to back services focused on those very unfortunate babies who, in any given year in Scotland, are born addicted to drugs. And research by my party show, there's 1,500 of them been born since 2017. This was personal for me.
because before politics I was a youth worker, I was working for Apple Arrow, which is the charity that delivers these services for Amy's who were born showing the signs of drug addiction. That's uncontrollable crying, that's trembling, it's object distress and it's the worst possible start of life. So I'm delighted that there's some serious money behind that.
So two money for colleges, particularly in terms of skills, the skills that start on the economy needs, whether that's renewable technology and social care, so millions of pounds behind that, and indeed more money for hospices, more money for councils, but this comes
I mean, this is really the cherry on the cake for us. There are hundreds of millions of pounds of investment announced in December for liberal democrat priorities that would not have been in the budget, whether that is, for example, money for local healthcare. So you can see a GP at the first time of asking, or an NHS dentist near you, whether that's a winter fuel lounge for pensioners, movement on hospitality business rates.
Long COVID, you guys have heard me talk about Long COVID many, many times. And a string of capital projects as well, like the Belford Hospital in Loughborough, the hyper-villain and legend brother Gilbert Bain Hospital in Shatland. So a smorgasbord, if you like, of strong liberal democrat priorities. Obviously, we believe in our hearts, the change Scotland needs is a change of government, but it's very difficult to force an election.
in the Hollywood context. So it's important, I think, for in a minority administration situation to act like grownups, that's what we've done. Yeah, act like grownups. That's interesting because we had the first minister and deputy first minister on the pod at the start of the year. And obviously, that was when the budget process was kind of ramping up again for the new year. And John Swinney said that his door was always open for further talks on the budget. And I just wonder, Alex, how you found the process
Has it been a relatively friendly, consensual discussion? Has there been argument? Has it been difficult? How would you describe it? No, it has. And I think one of the secrets of Scottish politics is because there's only 129 of us in Hollywood. We all buy and large pretty well get on.
when the cameras are off. So that continued, that kind of green room mentality continued in those negotiations. Obviously, there are areas of profound difference in our politics, but because we were trying to get something done, something good done, whether that's for neonatal absence, syndrome or long COVID or whatever, these are serious issues. So I think our constituents would expect us to leave the tribalism at the door and come to agreement.
It was a kind of revelation for me because I've ostensibly been involved in budget negotiations since I was first elected to Parliament. But there's a theatre in that. And actually, there's always a, you've got a thought at the back of your head saying, they don't need us or we wouldn't touch this with the biological. But for the first time since I became a leader session, this was a process where you thought, well, actually, we potentially could do some good here.
Yeah. Andy, can I come to you on this? Because there's the kind of what you've been talking about for a few weeks, the reality on the ground where we feel a difference from all of this as people living at every single day. And there is the politics bit of it, which Alex is outlining for us here, the negotiation, the back and forth. Who wins politically in this context? Can we say it's a win for the Scottish Parliament and the process and the idea that they can work together to get things done?
So on the latter point, I think it's all marginal. I don't think it's going to turn politicians into popular rock stars overnight, it must be said. But I do think as a win for the Parliament when we see in a post referendum environment, I think as a win for the Parliament and a win for devolution when we see a unionist party and a nationalist party working together. So I think yes to that latter point, I think that is a good thing. Ultimately,
John Swinney is winning at the moment, okay? Since he took over, he's clearly stabilised the SNP. With the assistance of Keur Starmer, he's also taken what was basically a two horse race and turned it into a pretty substantial lead for him and for the SNP.
with a year or so to go before the election so i think there's no question about the fact that and you know john swinney is going to be seen as the winner from this and but i do think i mean i give Alex and the libdems a lot of credit in what they have done here.
I think they've made the right decision early on to engage in the process. I think we saw hints of engagement already. It wasn't much mentioned at the time, but it was really down to Alex and colleagues that Kate Forbes managed to become Deputy First Minister because that vote to allow her to become Deputy First Minister could have gone a different way. And the Lib Dems, I think Alex will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the attitude was basically reasonable as a parliament to give the nominee a chance to do this job and we're going to allow that to happen.
And I think the Lib Dems would put themselves in a good position to, by backing this budget and by showing they can work with the government, I think they put themselves in a good position to do it again next year and to extract more next year. And then we're into an election, which as we've seen from the polling that The Holy Dude Sources in true North have done over the last couple of weeks with Salvation Inn with John Curtis, this is a messy, messy election.
And out of the back of the selection, who knows who's going to have the opportunity to influence what's in the government? So I mean, I think by and large, I think it's been a good process. The only John Swinney is the biggest winner out of this, but I think it's been a good process for the Lib Dems. And I think one thing to look over, I'm interested to get Alex's views on it as well, in the letter that Sean Robison sent to the Finance Committee specifically said that the government and the liberal Democrats specifically would develop
would have further engagement on the infrastructure investment plan. Now, we've talked a lot about infrastructure on this podcast before. It is one of the biggest problems that Scotland has. It's a massive inhibitor to the rollout of renewables and the ability to do something on that and to push the governments further on that is potentially very significant.
Well, yeah, there's a lot of time back there. Firstly, I listened to your episode on the pulling, excellent pulling research you guys did. I think the untold story of that was that I think we're at least troubling our seats in a new parliament to come. So we're going to return with strong liberal voices and, you know, that's an opportunity to do more of that growing up politics. Yeah, the kind of
granular detail of the budget names yesterday or which will be laid before Parliament next week is only half the story because yeah we've won serious commitments on infrastructure and by and large they are health infrastructure but you know we are partially that's dedicated to things like the dueling of the A9 and the A96 and that's because you know we're not a party of motorists we're a party of road safety I mean these roads are lethal and they are
actually starving off economic growth for the highlands and the far north. And so they're really important to us. And so too are, you know, antiquated health care systems, Beatrice Wyscher, who's my lovely colleague from the, from Shetland, and told me that the Gilbrook Pain Hospital in low-ring is so old and so dilapidated that the lifts in that building can only be repaired by one person in the whole of the British Isles.
And those lifts broke down in the summer while that guy was on holiday. So they had to literally either move to keep people on the ground floor or carry them upstairs. That was a nature of it. I think it says a lot about the state of running the chest. And just to reflect on your cake forms point, we abstained actually in that vote.
You know, I think the Tories came to us saying, oh, we can defeat it. We can more chaos, more chaos. And there's a point of which you say, come on, guys, we've actually got to get this stuff done here. And we just can't keep the throwing spanners in the way it's the government and people have turned away.
If I were on a sour, I'd be looking at how it's going on and I'm thinking that's the way you do it. I mean, I don't understand Labour's positioning on this in terms of abstaining so early in the process. They've made NHS their key issue and so therefore I would expect them to come up with some sort of ask.
even if it was to be rebuffed by the SNP, at least you made an ask and it gives you a platform for discussion. I think that's good politics when you're going through a budget process and I think Alex Cole Hammond and Liberals have extracted quite a lot given their relatively small size. I don't say that to be disparaging, but given their parliamentary group, they've done pretty well.
And it gives them a platform to go into the summer recess where you can say you've delivered these things and then beyond into the election campaign in earnest. So I don't think we can add too much to that. I suppose my question to you though, Alex, is you mentioned our Poland and that you've
forecast to treble your seats which is absolutely right but you're not changing positions in the parliament because reformer on the rise and i suppose to hand these kind of elitination on on coalitions i just want to understand i assume you'd never consider forming any sort of coalition informal or former with reform party.
No, and I think we've got to take the rise of reform very seriously, but I don't accept that this is some kind of lurch to the right in terms of Scottish politics or UK politics for that matter. I think that a lot of people are considering reform.
because they represent disrupt, they are a disruptor in our politics, they represent change, they represent something new. And there's a lot of people who I think are absolute skonodes with the status quo, with the old party system, they hoped for something new with
labor, they've been sorely disappointed. You can't blame them for wanting to try something new. Of course, reform have a wind behind them, but that's a wind largely of the fact that it means your media seems obsessed with them and completely, constantly platforms in a way that I don't think is necessarily deserved.
But it doesn't mean that the people voting for reform are anti-immigration or deeply right-wing. I think they just want change. They want something new. And we've shown in the general election with the Dems getting our best result in over 100 years in the kinds of violations right across Scotland in an increased polling, the Dems are back as well. And we could be the change that those people are looking for.
I just maybe have one follow-up about your willingness, potentially, to Tedra Coalition back when we spoke previously. That was looking odds on at the Labour Party, but perhaps that might be the S&P long way to go, obviously. I think you'd like to be deputy first minister.
Well, I didn't get into politics to cut from the sidelines. I mean, I don't leap out of bed every morning thinking, how do I become Depsi for Christmas? But I don't fear it either. But I will say, and I have said this several times, and this is going to disappoint Andy, because I've heard him say this on the podcast. So, you know, there's a possibility that I will be Depsi for Christmas is when he's first going to sit. Nothing could be further than from the truth. I've said, and I'll repeat it.
that no liberal democrat will take ministerial office in an S&P-led administration. Why? Because 20 years on, I think Scotland needs a change of government. I don't think if they needed us, I think that they would have slipped back to a certain degree where the people of this country had rendered a judgement, a judgement that was rendered in July as well. I think the S&P were told that the people of Scotland were looking for something different.
That doesn't mean that in a parliament a minority will continue, we won't continue to act like growing up. So no deputy first minister for me in an SMP administration, but obviously if there's still the largest party, if they still hold power, we will get things done. We'll work to find a way through. That's really interesting. There are no circumstances under which you can foresee that you would enter a coalition with the SMP, none whatsoever.
I mean, in order to fact change, surely you want to affect change by being in government.
I think I can say that categorically, and the reason for that is several fold. Firstly, when you talk about John's when you're being the winner right now, and having settled the washes of the SMP, and that is true. But obviously, your polling, for example, shows that it's not because the SMP are going up. It's because everybody else is falling down around. There is a problem with the Lib Dems, and 100 of them, I suppose.
So I think the public, and if you go door knocking, I do more door knocking than most people. When you meet people who are nationalist by persuasion, they're grudgingly still voting for the SNP. There isn't a massive recession saying, oh, thank goodness John Swinney is in charge. Now I can constantly vote SNP anymore. It's just like, I don't know what I'll do. I may vote SNP, but my goodness, they don't deserve that. And that's because people can see day by day,
that their mum can't get a hip operation, their child is waiting for ADHD diagnosis after 20 years, this is a government that has failed. And I think, and remember, we still have quite recent cause to be anxious about unpopular coalition and taking power for power's sake. And so I think, yeah, I can say that was confident. So it won't be an ellipse and be coalition.
Really interesting, Alex. Thank you for, for insight on that. I do just want to ask, we're talking about, you know, a bit of a win here for the Lib Dems when it comes to the budget. I note that Kamala Harris isn't the president of the United States at the time of speaking. Yeah, that's great.
And the last time we heard from you on this podcast you were campaigning for her. I was your own foreign correspondent. I enjoyed doing it. And I really enjoyed my trip over there. And it was utterly doomed, obviously. But I think that although I said that,
And the precinct that we were campaigning in was won by the Democrats. Look, I was going Georgia door. And actually the day I spoke to you or recorded that for you, I was saying, I've been knocking doors in a trailer park outside of Scranton. And we've been given a list of registered Democrats. So this should have been pretty friendly doorknob game, right? 50% of the people in that trailer park I had on my list were defecting to Trump.
So it was pretty clear that day to me this was doomed, this was really doomed. But yeah, I had to try it. And by the way, if anyone's interested in buying a Tesla, I'm trying to get out of the Elon Musk market as well. Are you? Yeah. Well, so you order Tesla right now and you want rid of it.
I bought it in 2019 before Elon completely deranged. I've left Twitter. I'm trying to leave Tesla as well. Just two things to pick up on on that then. Firstly, Alex will message you on what and how about the Tesla.
It's a shameless McKeever. Secondly, and I mean, not to get into this too much because we'll cover this. I'm sure a lot throughout the next year, but the people in that trailer park, whether they're Democrats or Republicans, I would say would be very attracted to the triple message that Trump and actually populace all around the world give now routinely in which reform will give as well, which is net zero makes you poor. You don't need wokery and immigrants are taking your jobs.
So that would have registered in that trailer park with dams just as much as it would have with Republicans and that is what mainstream parties need to understand and counter. I think that's right. The one thing I didn't hear much of the work stuff. I mean, I heard costs of living an immigration, people talking about immigration as an invasion.
I actually think that the work stuff is a bit of a false flag. I don't think it moves votes. I think it's just part of the basket policies that populist right embrace these days, but I don't think it moves a lot of votes. Yeah, I think for me, the thing that really, you know, obviously I'm
and natural, I'm given to hope. I'm a Liberal Democrat. You have to be very hopeful as a Liberal Democrat. But on the day of the actual camp, you know, I went into my friend's house, we were going to stay up all night and watch it.
And as CNN do, the great thing about American politics is they will reveal an exit poll before all the polls are closed. So just when the Eastern seaboard stops voting, they'll start going through their exit poll. And the thing that jumped out immediately is that 75% Americans didn't agree with the statement, my life is better than it was four years ago.
You don't get to stay in power or your team doesn't get to stay in power. If that's the case, it's what Ronald Reagan did with Jimmy Carter. He said, you know, Jimmy Carter was the most bad debater. He said, is your life better than it was four years ago? To which the answer was resolutely known. So I think the writing was on the wall for Kamala Harris long before she became the presumptive nominee.
Alex was really good to catch up with you. What is an important time, of course, with the Scottish budget process, but nice to chat about these other things too. Thank you very much. Thanks for your time. And Andy, you'll be in touch about the Tesla.
I'm to officially join the Lib Dems. You may have heard Andy. He already is. He's a candidate. Well, but the problem is, of course, Alex, I'm not sure about your position on an SNP coalition. We'll talk about that when you leave for the rest of this podcast. We might just mention that there. I don't know if that's the right position for you to take, but I definitely look not withstanding that. We will talk about the Tesla.
Alex, there's no way that Andy's going to stand for liberal democrats, not because he doesn't like you. I think he is a closet lived in, but because his reputation as an expert couldn't take getting hammered as a Tory and then hammered as a liberal. It's quite obvious you won't do that. Alex, cool. Hamilton, thank you very much. Thanks guys.
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Thanks to Alex Cole Hamilton, leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats for joining us. Right, lots to go through there. Should we start Andy on the point you just left us on? The coalition idea, which Alex Cole Hamilton said, no Lib Dem would be a minister in an SNP government. He would not join a coalition with the SNP. He seemed pretty certain, pretty categorical on that.
I get his argument, his thinking clearly is we'll be punished if we go into coalition with the SNP because after two decades in government the SNP are going to be so unpopular that if we prop them up we'll get punished for it.
I suppose the argument against that is to say, well, if they win another term in power, it means they can't be that unpopular. And obviously, John Sweeney and Kate Forbes, as we know from the polling that we did, are the most popular politicians in the country. It doesn't mean they're popular. It's all relative here. But they're the most popular politicians in the country, and it means that the country as a whole doesn't think anybody else is going to do the job any better. I suppose that's the one counterbalance to that.
The concern I would have about Alex's position is that the most polling suggests that the SNP clearly will not get a majority and what people consider to be the most obvious agreement, i.e. with the Greens,
is actually not something that a lot of people in the SNP want anymore after what happened last time. And even that in itself probably won't get to 65 seats in majority anyway. So because of this disruption by reform, we've got an incredibly open, potentially an incredibly open parliamentary situation after May 2026. And my thinking would simply be that when you have that sort of potential mess after 2026, when it's so open,
closing doors now is probably not the right thing to do. Ultimately, you have to find a way to form a government one way or another, and I don't think anybody's going to be popular if they force a second election after the May 26th, like the government can be formed. All I would say, I'm saying you get gesture flexion in this. He's got a lot of experience of obviously minority governments from 07. I don't think closing doors at this point is that good an idea.
Yeah, look, he seemed to intimate that he would, um, perhaps support them again as he has done with the budget, but you know, he also said that you want, you get into politics to change things. Well, you can change things for being in government. And he also mentioned that the liberal democrat experience with the Tories, Westminster, um, are seem to infer that that was, you know, disastrous for them and all the rest, but that
But that was disastrous for them because all they got from that in the public's views was a referendum on voting change, voting reform, which nobody really cared about to be honest with you. If he takes the experience of what he's done with the budget and applies that to potential coalition talks and say, we're extracting this, that and the next thing from it.
I think that could be a platform for success, but why not? Why not? At least, as Andy says, see how the budget goes down with the fact that liberals sport it. I guess that most folk don't really care that much or quite pleased that budgets going ahead and that public services are being funded and think, well, actually, maybe we could do a deal. I just don't need to close your options off. I agree. I mean, I think you get into politics to try and effect changing. You can do that from being in government much better than you can from opposition. I think the other things remember as well, not to dwell on this too much, but
There's the bubble, and there's the public. And cross-constitutional working is very unpopular in the bubble, and it's very unpopular with activists. The notion of a nationalist party and unionist party working together. It's not that unpopular out in the real world. The real world doesn't care. The real world just wants stuff done. And we saw from the polling that actually the most popular coalition
amongst the public of all the ones that we asked them about was Labour and the SNP. So the public are giving a pretty strong signal that they don't care that much about least least unpopular. Least unpopular. I mean, this is politics. So everything is the least unpopular, because we're talking about politicians here. It's always the lesser of many evils. But I think that sometimes when you're in the political bubble, you can overread the consequences of these types of actions. Yeah.
I wrote down Alex Cole Hamilton's, come on guys, we've got to get stuff done. And that was in reference ended to your points about Kate Forbes, Deputy First Minister, et cetera, but also obviously applies to the budget process. And I actually just wondered, Jeff, if in there is something of a, not an election slogan necessarily, but some sort of message that the Lib Dems want to send out that, Luke, we're the ones that can get a government to do stuff for you. We will achieve things from our position. Do you think that, am I reading too much into that?
No, I think that's the platform that they're going to take into the next election. We got this, we delivered. Even in opposition, we delivered, and we can do so much more. That's my point of making my previous answer. How do they view themselves as being able to do more? It would be potentially, if the cards fall in a certain way, trying to get into, look, we're a long way to go.
perhaps his preferred option of being deputy first minister to Anna Sarwar will come to pass. Who knows what's going to happen, but I just don't think you should shut your options down at this stage, particularly given that, you know, we know that John's winning Kate Forbes are trying to rebrand it so speak, that the SMP, I would let him see, I don't wait and see where this thing stands, you know, in January, February time before I'd make any rash decisions, but there we are.
There we are indeed. You can WhatsApp us as you're listening to this. The number is all triple three, four, all four, six, five, all seven. Guys, just on the budget, I saved a question that Fraser asked on WhatsApp a while ago. I just want to put this to you just for a quick answer. He asked, what is it in particular that Andy and Jeff like about the budget, i.e. how does it deliver growth? Which I think is a good question. Andy, do you want to go first on that?
I don't love the budget. I just think it's not brain dead in the way that previous budgets have at times been. I don't think it's fantastic, but I think it's a solid foundation that might transition the country from being a country that doesn't understand or regard the importance of a growing economy.
into a country that does understand and regard the importance of a growing economy. I think it gives us the foundation for that. I don't think it's revolutionary. I don't think it's all that visionary or groundbreaking, but I think it's better. And we should applaud when things get better, I think.
Yeah, just very quickly. I agree with Andy. It's not a transformational budget, but any stretch. But on the practical, I think the commitment not to raise the higher rate of income tax will be well received by business groups. I'm not saying that'll engender economic growth, but certainly we'll give some reassurance. And secondly, because of the Barnett consequences, should be said because of the larger than expected block grant from the UK government, they've been able to
recommit to certain policy areas and I thought that the offshore wind supply chain fund, I think it's in the order of 150 million. It is welcome because that is sorely, sorely needed. I'm working with companies up and down the country right now that really need access to finance because, as I've said many times before, that ain't that commercial scale and money to be made in renewables, offshore renewables just at this minute, not entirely, but the majority. And so that needs supported. I think the biggest thing, though, is that
John Sweeney can now say he's got two parties back in his budget. He stuck out in all of Branch and he got some returns for that and it can demonstrate from his perspective that he's willing to work across party divides. For that reason, I think he'll be the most pleased out of the party leaders just now.
There you go. You can ask questions anytime. Let's go on to a few of the other issues that were around this week, just for some thoughts from the guys on these. John Sweeney's outline plans for the NHS this week at a speech in Edinburgh. The first minister set out three priorities to reduce immediate pressure in the NHS, to shift the balance from acute services to the community, and to use innovation to improve access to care.
And one of the sort of comments on this is whether this is a sort of plan that will have a real effect or whether it's actually an election pitch. And I want to use national treatment centers as an example of this. So, John Swenney promised a substantial increase in capacity to significantly reduce people's waiting times.
including 150,000 extra appointments and procedures in hospitals and national treatment centers in the coming year. Now, in 2016, five of these centers were promised within five years, but only one is currently operating. And now 10 are promised. Plans for centers in NHS, Lovian, Grandpian, Earsha and Aaron were all paused last year due to a lack of funding. So I just want to read that.
I wondered if actually that commitment feels more like an election based ambition rather than something that is realistically going to be delivered right now.
I think everything that every leader says about the NHS is based on elections or at least based on the electorate, because every poll will tell you that the two most important things to the electorate are the economy and the NHS. They sometimes switch order a little bit, but pretty much every single poll, north and south of the border, will tell you the same thing. That's what's important to people. So politicians are compelled to talk about the NHS.
In reality, that's all there ever is. It's talk. Nothing that, I mean, I read John's when he's speech on Monday, nothing and it was wrong. It wasn't anything that was incorrect about his speech in terms of what the NHS needs to be and what he wants to try to make it be. But, you know, the reality is, there isn't anything in that speech that leaders before him have said, leaders of all different parties have said, health sectors of all different parties have said. I mean, you know, I've just,
I've just heard this so many times before. It almost just, I'm just desensitized to political words on the NHS. There are realities in the NHS that we can't get away from, but that politicians simply don't want to address because the NHS has become a sort of cult-like religious religion in this country.
The absolute reality of the NHS is that the primary concern is not money. The primary concern is system. It's a system failure. We don't organise our NHS. Anything like any other countries do. So other countries also have effectively nationalised demand. In other words, it's a state-funded service.
but they don't have nationalised supply. In other words, it isn't always the NHS as a public sector institution that delivers the care, which is part of the problem. And ultimately, the one word problem in our NHS is capacity. There is not the capacity. There aren't as many doctors and nurses as comparable countries. There aren't as many beds. There aren't as many hospitals. There aren't as many scanners. And that is ultimately for needs to be addressed because the one thing John Sweeney has always said, and he's right about this,
once you get into the NHS, it compares perfectly well with other services. Once you're on the operating table, getting your hip replacement, you're not getting a worse hip replacement in the NHS than you are in France. It just takes you infinitely longer to actually get there in the first place. And nothing that the Scottish government has said for years, to be honest.
has addressed that key issue. The only politician in the country who is saying unthinkable things about the NHS remains West Street, who I'm slightly concerned has gone native to a degree since he's gotten the job. Nonetheless, he remains the only person who is, I think, standing up and saying, these are the realities of life. And if we don't address them, you won't have any sort of NHS, let alone the one that you actually want.
Yeah, I mean, as you guys both know, I've had reason to use the NHS quite regularly because of my son's relatively minor ailments. And I have to say that the treatment we've received during first class throughout, and I was in for the latest checkup just to make sure he was happy with the surgeries and everything.
And the doctor concerned, and he's a very, very senior doctor, lauded actually internationally, not just in Scotland, said the following phrase to me, and I thought there's some that up really well. The front line of the NHS is a Formula One engineering team, but it's being run like it's a quick fit.
And his point was saying, look, the bureaucracy above us is what's hampering our ability to do things better and quicker. And I just thought it was a wonderful kind of anecdote about it. Look, I'll look more at the politics of this thing, Andy summarized some of the specifics. We know why John Sweeney is doing this in our poll that's evidence enough. How satisfied are you?
with the ways in which the Scottish government has performed in the following areas, improving the NHS, 27% satisfied, 50% dissatisfied. It's by a distance, the biggest net disapproval ratings or dissatisfaction ratings that the Scottish government has. He knows that a lot of this rise that he's witnessed is, as Alec Koham had said earlier, more people get in fed up with the other parties as opposed to saying who they for the SNP.
He needs to demonstrate competence and I suspect not only on this but you'll be doing some speeches on education.
before long as well, because he knows he needs to strengthen his platform of a competent government before the Scottish election. Whether the public view is competent or not is another matter, but he's certainly trying, and I think that's the right strategy. At the time of recordings, we're chatting on the morning of Wednesday, the 29th of January, and later on, there is going to be a vote on Neil Gray's future as health secretary. It's difficult to comment on that until it happens, but it's just something to be aware of, depending on when you're listening to this.
Let me make one comment on that, right? In the last week, the government has jumped the National Care Service, which cost an awful lot of money to investigate when everybody pretty much knew what direction it was going in. And we've had a major speech from John Sweeney on NHS renewal, which, if you were in opposition poll, you can be looking at saying there's nothing in that.
I think as a citizen, I'd probably rather the opposition focus on those two things, rather than trying to get rid of yet another health secretary, which will do absolutely nothing to change the way the NHS is actually run. I'll probably say nothing more about that at this point.
Well, it's something we might respond to next week depending on what the outcome is. Just on the National Care Service then, the Scottish Government, as Andy says, is scrapping its plans for the National Care Service. It was one of the biggest public service reforms of the SNP's, whatever, 17 years now. This scheme was a key policy of former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon's administration.
She said in 2021, she called it the most ambitious reform since devolution and Jeff, it's gone. What does that say? What is the indication? What does that signal? Well,
It's very disappointing for Nicholas Sturgeon's legacy. I'm sure she's pretty frustrated that this decision has been taken by my friend. It was inevitable. It was inevitable for some years. Now, I spoke to a very senior in respect to economist known to us all. I will remain nameless. I want to protect that.
He said to me, back in 2021, shortly after this was announced, and this is before any firm detail was on the table, and said, I just don't see how this could be delivered unless there is massive cuts elsewhere. And I think from that moment forth,
I'd always had the view that this just can't happen as it was, you know, as it was the plans were subsequently released. And I think, you know, we've got to remember the limitations of devolution. My co-host always says we don't do things like normal countries. Well, you know, sorry, you know, over 70% of revenue and 40% of expenditure remains reserved to the United Kingdom government. We do not have
Much flexible do we do have some much flexible ability to borrow a game star cells invest in the future is the nature of how devolution is funded through the block grand and i just can't understand why it's taken so long to get to this position which was inevitable.
Usually disappointing, but again, I think John Swinney's made the right decision. You kind of have this thing carrying on throughout 2025 when you've got an election to try and win it in 2026. Take the hit just now. They're rightly getting panned for it. There's absolutely no doubt about that, but I just don't understand why it took so long for us to understand that it couldn't be delivered unless you are willing to make sweeping cuts elsewhere in your budget, which was never going to happen.
I just want to say, just before you come in and I know people who work in the care sector and who were trying to work out exactly how this would work, how it would function, and they as service providers were looking at it and going, hang on a second, this is not going to happen.
So they've spent years considering the implications of it, of course, kind of gearing up for it, but kind of at the back of their minds going, is this going to happen or not? And that doesn't lead to a good service provision either, does it? Andy, go on.
Just briefly, the discussion about the National Care Service is basically the same as a discussion about the National Health Service. At its root is the same issue. We have a growing aging population and actually quite a sick population as well.
With a reducing proportion of working-age people to pay for that growing non-working population, and layered on top of that, we want our health slash care services to do more and more and more, all out of general taxation, which we don't want to pay for.
I mean, come on, this is square peg and round tool stuff that ultimately you can't have this sort of conversation without having a more realistic conversation, really, ultimately, about where the funding comes from. I mean, if you are, we discussed this a little bit if you want to look back and their feed on the podcast we did with Phoenix on demographics, but if you are a 20-year-old entering the world of work right now,
The responsible advice to give to that 20 year old is just like you're putting some money with your pension, put some money with your health care and for your social care when you're older because this is an impossibility that the state is going to be able to afford to pay for all of these things that we wanted to pay for. It's just not realistic.
Yeah. Is it also notable that there was agreement on the National Care Service cross-party and what needed to be done, but then there was a lack of content as a matter of how to actually get there? Is that something that we should, because we're talking a lot about content is working today. Is there a feeling actually that there is a cross-party failure on this or is this an S&P failure to own, Jeff?
Well, actually in the week where we found that the Scottish Government might be sued by Biffa over the DRS scheme. We all know about the controversy around gender recognition. You know, there is
evidence to the argument that you're making that that perhaps in that particularly in that period since that that the referendum. We haven't seen as much cross party working as perhaps there should have been and if there had been would have it reduced some of these issues and perhaps a better outcomes. I don't know politics is politics but certainly certainly there are a number of.
key issues that don't reflect well on the current Scottish government, actually don't reflect well on the UK government as well, in terms of how they operate. I think Lorna Slater's got a point to make there, but ultimately you were in charge in Scotland. The buck stops with you. So, yeah, I mean, it's one of those we'll never know, but there certainly wasn't as much cross-party work in as you'd like to see. On some issues, such as a DRS system, we should not be controversial. We should be able to do this. I mean, come on. Yeah, yeah, I get you.
Right, a few minutes left on the pod this week, Anna Sarbar says he understands why people are moving to parties like Reform, and insists he won't turn his back on them. My door is open to every single Scott, he tells the Daily Record this week. And how does he demonstrate that, that the door is open, that he's not turning his back? How does he win back a potential Reform UK voter at this point?
Well, I thought it was interesting as we've talked about its confirmation that reform has got a lot of Tory voters as it did at the general election, but is now making pretty big inroads into the Labour vote as well.
I think what it shows us is that we are entering a new world here where right and left take a back seat to issues of who's on my side and who's not on my side. And I think that's today.
You know, like a lot of the Anna Sarawar questions just now, they're not always particularly easy questions to answer, to be honest. You know, he's, um, Cure Starmer has put him in a fix, and John Swinney has put him in a fix, and he hasn't done anything wrong. Um, you know, he's in the position because of external influences, and it's really hard, frankly, to get out of it. I think that really what has to happen from a Labour point of view, and it might not be enough, but I think it's really all they've got.
is to identify some of the areas that are very clearly requiring a little bit of vision. I still think there's a big market in politics amongst the electorate for a party that comes along and says, look in a realistic way, says, look, we can
We can make life better for you, we get that things are not good, we've got a little bit of vision, we've got a little bit of optimism and this is what we can deliver because we know that we've all, the mainstream has left you behind and we get that and there are things that we can do.
to help you. I think he's got to major on that, to be honest with you. That is how you're going to get disillusioned voters back, because people who are voting for the form, this is where he's right, and Alex Co-Hamilton was right when he said it earlier on as well.
Let's not take every single person who votes reform and presume that there's some sort of Nazi, right? They are not. They are largely speaking people who are utterly disillusioned and dismayed with politics and who don't think the mainstream are delivering for them. So the answer is to deliver for them.
You can ignore reform. If you start delivering for the sort of people who are voting for reform, they will vote again for mainstream existing parties in my view. Yeah. And Jeff Anasar, who makes that point, he says, the way we get these people back is not by insulting them, not by claiming that somehow they don't understand or that they are stupid or that they are racist or that they don't care. And he talks about bringing our country and communities closer together. He says, a lot of them have lost hope in our politics. That's what I am going to confront.
I thought it was a good speech, and I thought all the things you just read out there were spot on. That's the right way to try and confront this, but I'm so interested in the politics of it. The fact that he's having to make the speech at all tells you how trendy he is by the rise of reform. Your call, when we spoke to Stephen Gethin's S&P MP in the run up to the general election, that time Holmes Eusef was a leader.
and I give them a bit of a panning over this vote SMP to keep the Tories out. You play the ball with it lies in politics. And I just thought that just totally missed the point. Labour were the ones that could get rid of the Tories because Labour were fighting across the UK where the SMP weren't. And I just thought it didn't make sense to me. And I thought far better to show your ire at the Labour party who are clearly your biggest competitor in the Scottish context. But with Anna Sarbar, I can see the argument.
And because it because he recognizes and our poll shows this, that reform is taking votes from them. Yes, from the Tories marginally, but it seems because they've got more to lose from last year's general election result that they're taking from them. So he has to confront that. And I think he's done that in the right way. But.
If you're focusing your eye on a dual threat, both reform and the SMP, I'm probably rubbing my hands off on John Swinney to certainly stand gun brilliant. You know, he's got to have to go to things here and have two different messages and in politics, simplicity is your best friend when you're trying to communicate with electorate. So I think he has to do it.
because he recognises that's where his vote's going. It doesn't look like it's taken it from the SNP, it's so much from the forum. But nonetheless, we're going to see this play out in the eight months, for the remainder of this year, into autumn. And then I think Anasar will refocus completely his efforts on the SNP and the record in government.
Thanks, guys. I just want to read out a few comments. These are from the video of our conversation with Anthony Scaramucci, who was Donald Trump's Director of Communications in the White House last time around for 11 days. Christine on YouTube says, good to hear somebody as straight talking as Anthony Scaramucci. Love listing someone who's got the inside lane on Trump. Could do with somebody like him advising the Scottish and UK governments.
says Christine on YouTube. Evan says great interview. This person, this is John, says the guest, knows his stuff. Trump is interested in self-aggrandizement. Scotland is irrelevant to him. Good advice and great insight into Trump's character and mindset. This person, True Blue, says yes, but Scaramucci, can you do the Fandango? Which I thought was quite...
quite entertaining. And this person called Al makes a good point. I don't know why he was picking on Callum. That was a bit odd. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. I thought, I thought it's a good showing of myself and he's laughing. I thought, did all right. I thought you did fine. I thought you did fine. I think if I remember he was a bit upset that you were unprepared to give your fourth right views on Mr. Musk.
Yes. It's not my job to give my views. Quite right. And he did also say that when I was first Minister of Scotland, he wants to be welcomed in Scottish government. So, you know, I'm open to that. Right. Jeff, you've got a bunch of stuff sitting here if you need it.
Which one of you are you talking about? Definitely not me. Thank you both very much. You can WhatsApp us with all your thoughts and comments and questions. We've got a few actually that we'll get to next week. I promise I've got them all saved. So do not worry. We will get to those. You can WhatsApp us all triple three, four, all four, six, five, all seven. Thank you so much for listening. We'll talk to you again soon.
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