Episode 299: Layoffs Are an Opportunity to Grow, Not a Failure - with Chloe Shih

Welcome to ABG, Asian Boss Girl, a podcast for the modern day Asian American woman. I'm Janet. I'm Chloe. Hi, everyone. Today, I am here with Miss Chloe Shee.

She is an amazing content creator who is known for her honesty and her openness. Chloe has worked at many major tech companies like Google, Facebook, TikTok, caffeine and Discord with roles ranging from partnerships to product. And during her time in these roles, she found inspiration in the lack of career resources that she found for herself as an Asian American woman. And so she set out to solve that problem and essentially create transparency herself by becoming a content creator.

Thanks for watching!

Yes, Chloe excelled at her tech career landing a spot on the 2023 Forbes 30 under 30 list. Congratulations on that. Amazing. And then at the top of this year in 2024, she experienced a layoff and she posted about it. And that story ended up going mega viral. And the layoff became a moment that really shifted your trajectory. Now as a woman in her 30s, she is essentially starting over. Chloe is continuing to navigate her career

her home and her life, her way, honestly, creatively and with intention. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast, Chloe. I'm so excited to have this combo with you. I'm so pumped too. What a dream to be here. I want to give our listeners a little bit of a background because I remember in 2018 getting an email from Chloe. I didn't meet her personally, but you met Helen and Mel up in San Francisco at an event. This is where you were.

Yeah, you were deep in the early stages of your tech career. Really go get our type of girl. And I just remember that email being so sweet and filled with ambition. This girl who is like, I love your podcast. Here's some of my work. So it's just such a full circle moment for me personally. I love seeing all that you've been able to accomplish and all that you've done and now to be able to have you on the show and share your story with our listeners. So yeah. Yeah. Wait, why weren't you there at the event?

I don't remember honestly, like what if I probably had like a family thing or something like that. But yeah, I wasn't able to make it. And we've had a couple of events like that where it's like a couple of us and someone will be like, Oh my God, and I'll get photos or things like that. I actually have that picture. Oh my gosh. But yeah, and then I also looked back at my old emails and I was like, Oh, this is so good.

I think that's when you know and you see in someone this like drive and this real ambition and this real passion and genuine like authentic passion for what you were doing. And so we feel like you obviously align so much with our mission.

and our community and what we want to do and what we've been doing, what you've been doing. So I just want to start by congratulating you, first of all, on taking a gap year because you've gone through a lot and you've done a lot and you are such an example for those who experienced something like a layoff that

I think sometimes can have maybe like a bit of stigma associated with it. And you've been so amazing and sharing it so vulnerably and openly and done it with such grace and poise and demonstrated to people, you know, like all the different facets of what it is to go through a layoff. And so I want to start by just kind of asking you to talk a little bit about your gap year. How is it going? What are you up to? Let us know. Yeah, it was crazy. It was like the most insane year of my life.

I think January happened, part of the mass layoffs. So many people got laid off this year, like over 120,000 tech employees got laid off. So it's like, it's just been wave after wave after wave. And then when it happened, remember that person, the girl from CloudFlare,

went viral too, because she recorded like 10 minutes of her actual meeting. So it was her, and then my video back to back. So I got caught up in that wave, and that was sort of, hers was very controversial, and mine was very neutral, like, oh, I just reacted to it, like, ah. But then because it was in that same wave, everyone clumped us together, and then it was kind of hard to

Manage the I guess the negative PR. I don't know. Oh, yeah It was so it went on mega viral and that was like part of it was interesting and part of it was cool But part of it is also very scary. I had a lawyer up. Oh my god I can't imagine how and that was it like overnight like literally you went to bed put your video up and then I mean, yeah, I think it was doing a I knew it would cause a cause an uproar because like the last time I had a mini like a

many moment was when I left TikTok and I talked about why I quit TikTok. And that was within the tech industry, a little bit viral. But then with this one, it just shot up. And it got to a point where it was cool and people were resonating with it because everyone was going through it. But then it got to like Twitter and to got to like Elon Musk fanboy territory. And that was terrifying. And then I was on, do you know what blind is?

No, I don't like it. Blind is like anonymous forums for tech workers. Oh, I've heard about it. Yes. Okay. It's very toxic. Yeah. And then so people like shredded me apart there. Oh my gosh. And then there was like a big media company like top three in the world.

that did a broadcast television episode on me, and made fun of me, and made some racist comments, and then I looked up again, and then it was a battle with their legal team. So that was January. That was crazy. Welcome to 2024, my god. No, it was so insane.

I think publicly I didn't say anything, but then there's all these things happening in the background and I never read this much law in my life. And I was like fighting behind the scenes. I consulted a lot of people that we have mutual friends with in entertainment side to be like, what do I do? Should I protect myself? How do I do this? And it was really fascinating because it's like AAPI entertainment executives. And half of them were like,

You shouldn't say anything. Do you want to do you want a career and entertainment at all? And I'm like, I don't know. And the other half is like, yeah, go public. Yeah. Like that corp. And I'm like, oh my God. So you basically had like opposing viewpoints and all from all ends. It truly was. It truly was.

So that was so chaotic. I then went to creator life and I guess join talent management for like the second time. And that was like a whole debacle. And then I signed a contract in Taiwan to do tech for Taiwan media work. So that was like a whole

chapter, February, March, April. I remember talking to you right before you were. I think it was the night before your flight. Oh my god, you're right. I was so stressed out. I thought it had a panic back. I thought in your eyes. I was like, I know she knows that this is a great opportunity, but also it's so much. It's so much. And like you said,

something happens and you're having to basically ride this wave. It's just so much that's probably taking a toll on you mentally, physically, emotionally. It's just like, I gotta go, I gotta go, I'm gonna make this and I gotta make decisions along the way and figure this out. So that was, was that February then? So I think we met in March. March, okay. Yeah, we met in March. Yeah. And yeah, I definitely, I mean, it was good, it was a good experience, but I like, don't know how I did it. I look back and I'm like,

Oh, that really happened. I built a whole 10-hour course and I interviewed a lot of content creators, professionals, business managers, like I interviewed the general manager of Line Time One who built Line Pay. That's like a really big deal in the world of consumer tech. It is. Yeah. And so that was that. Summer was hiring my first full-time employee and hiring at a team, launching JOMO, and then

Uh, that was crazy. And then the season finale of Joe was season one was last week. Congratulations. Oh my gosh.

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G. I mean, you basically have just been nonstop then, right? It's like, layoff happens and then all these different potential opportunities open up and then so you kind of move towards that. But yeah, I think it's been really amazing to watch you kind of like play around in an experiment and try all these different things. It's really inspiring and to do it so successfully.

We'll talk about the podcast a little bit later. But I'm curious. Obviously, your career and your content creation has taken such a different journey just only in the last year. But when you started creating content, you were more for the tech audience. That was the person you were speaking to. Who do you think your audience is now? Do you think it's changed at all?

I think it's still quite similar. Perhaps it's mostly working woman. But actually when I first started off, it was a lot of men. Yeah. And it was like not fun. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about that. Yeah. I initially went into content and I think we're supposed to talk about this.

We'll talk about you. I was like, oh, why, why start content? Why, why did you go into it? And it really was this, um, this, this recurring theme of feeling erased in the, in the corporate space. Yeah. And what does it feel so hard to break into the upper ranks or even break into the one job? And I feel like I worked so hard on my life, why, why? And I realized it was like this invisible game with invisible rules that no one tells you if you don't come from those backgrounds. And I wanted to share all of that.

So I first started off with career tips, but when it says like, oh, how to, you know, become a product manager or like ace your interview or answer this question, a lot of, you get a lot of like desperate. I really want my resume to be fixed. I really want a job.

Yeah, yeah. And there's a, it's very male oriented, fortunately, or it's like very interesting. But then the connection with the viewer is just extremely desperate, like, give me this, give me this, give me this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, oh, I don't know if I can keep up with that kind of energy. Yeah. And there are great creators to do that. And then I tried my best transition to career stories and stories of the everyday life. Yeah. And I purposely tried to build an aesthetic for the feminine eye, the female eye.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then became more women's centric. When did that shift start happening? Probably two years ago. Two years ago. Okay. Yeah. But it was really hard. I think it was my career. So I was doing really well and then plummeted because of that transition. I was like, I'd rather take the right eyeballs and create the right connection than knowing I can.

create some sort of sensational piece about career, money, jobs, interviews. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's speaking to kind of one of the challenges of working in the creator space, right? It's one thing to build an audience. It's another to build an audience that really resonates that you resonate with and that you want to continue feeling that relationship with.

Yeah. But so you did say though like within your career in the tech space, you've always been someone who talked a lot about being an Asian American woman in that very male dominated setting and the importance of diversity and representation and

being able to fight for resources for people who come from a background that isn't necessarily an automatic in. From that perspective, is there a moment you can think whether it was a project or a meeting where you felt like a really big culture shock or it was really hard and you had to make an adjustment in order to succeed in that career? I think there are a couple of those

Oh, what? Yeah, yeah. The first one going into industry was you don't listen to authority. Like, I think the, you know, growing abation in like authority, parents, professors, seniors, you listen to them and you don't question. Yeah. But I think question deeply, but tactfully, because otherwise, if you don't get the assignment, if you don't get the objective and you do the wrong thing and you align yourself with the wrong person,

then you're kind of screwed. So being able to build that scrutiny is really, really important. Yeah, yeah. And it's such, it is, you're right, very opposite of kind of even, I think just like being, because you can get to a place of being very successful up until that point, just following the rules, right? And like doing the thing that people tell you to do. So it's like a very distinct shift when you start going into the workforce.

of then success now means you have to question. It's scary to go against someone who's like 10, 20 years, you're senior and be like, I think you're wrong. Yeah. Yeah. To look them in the eye and they look at you in the eye and they obviously don't respect you. That takes a lot of courage. Yeah. Was there a specific moment that you remember kind of that happening, whether it was like a meeting or a project and that go? I think it's less about like a moment, but I think there was a time

In my start of days, this is probably like the worst like I've experienced where I was the youngest on the team on a team of like 10 men who were also five 20 years my senior and

The way that things got done was the loudest person, whoever was the loudest person who said it last. So that's like a really combative environment to be in. I don't know if it's just like a business partnerships archetype personality, but I had to, I was so quiet that they gave me a bell. So I'd had to tap the bell to speak up, but I was too scared to like tap the bell because I thought that was like so shameful and embarrassing. They had me go through assertiveness training because I was like so bad at talking.

And then there came a point where I just put my head down and I got a lot of work done. And I was the first to close probably the first two deals of a new project. And then remember, you know how like that first five minutes, the awkward five minutes in a meeting where it doesn't start yet? Yeah, yeah. And then people are like shooting the shit, whatever. Yeah.

I remember being there and one guy was like, oh, Chloe, how did you manage to close your first deals? I can't finish any. And another guy chimes in and is like, oh, I know why. I mean, we work in the games industry after all. And who would say no to a young, beautiful woman? And it's like, what?

It was, it was hella cringe. Yeah. I was so shocked. They were like, who would say no to someone like me who's young and who would ask them for something? And I'm like, what? Wow. And it was just dead silent. Yeah. Yeah. It was just so awkward. I think someone else did be like, yo, what the hell is that? That was so strange. Okay. So it was called out. It was called out, but it's also swept under the rug. And it took that man, I think, two months to apologize to me.

Yeah. Like I couldn't look at him the next day. So I think that's less of the lesson that I shared, but more of when you are perceived as young and yeah, I was young, but when you're perceived that way and not seen as a partner or an equal or someone who can contribute value, which is probably what a lot of this package will convey to people who don't understand this. Yeah. You go through these microaggressions and you have to navigate them and you

have to build already a gut instinct to react in the moment. Otherwise, investors become blown out of proportion and gets escalated and then you lose your job because of it. Thank you for sharing that. I think that probably a lot of our listeners who work in the corporate setting, no matter the industry or your role, you have experienced microaggressions.

For some people out there, maybe you don't even really understand what a microaggression is yet. So your example right there could serve for someone else to be like, oh my God, I never thought that I was demeaned or anything, but I've experienced something like that. So thank you. And I think being able to share with people in that instance, when you can, to speak up and to address it, because otherwise it can fester and take someone two months to get back to you on that. To the first lesson of authority, you have to build your own

a guiding compass with work. I think the next level is a little bit upper leadership where I had to relearn that leadership is not just working hard. Leadership is your ability to convince other people that you're right. Like their confidence in you and your opinion. So building conviction and being like, no, this is right because XYZ and here's how I convince all of you. I think that was such a shift for me.

So I was like, oh, well, we just look at the data above a lot. But a lot of the leadership that I've seen was like, you don't look at the data, you follow your intuition. I didn't come to that in the workplace a lot too, which was, yeah. It was so strange. It was so strange. As I get older, I realized where that comes from. You don't always have to do everything through the checklist, through the right process.

You build that intuition over time, you become more right, and you're able to explain why from a very simple storyline or three line. And that was fascinating.

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When you think back to like your different roles, was there a particular role where you felt like that really helped you kind of develop that type of practice and get confident in that? Definitely product management. Yeah, because I think for all the other roles I've had, they were more support, but then for product.

I mean, you've worked in UX before, so you understand very deeply in the world of product. I guess for the PM role specifically, if the product wins and it's the team's success, if the product fails and it's on you, it's your fault. So I think a lot of PMs are deathly afraid of failing. And so we have to be so obsessed with making sure all the levers are in the right place. Like, do we believe this lever will move?

whatever objective we're trying to achieve. Because in the end, we're eating that, we're eating that on our career. That's tough. That's a tough pill to swallow. Your reputation is on the line. Yeah. So that's been really cool to build. I think such a specific eye for things, like a scrutinizing eye, be able to analyze really clearly, deeply get cut through the BS and get to the root of it and be like, no, I'm not going to take that on. It's not going to work.

Did you have anyone in your career so far who has felt like kind of a mentor for that? Oh, yeah, for sure. So many people. I mean, my biggest first one was, I don't know if you know him, Teddy Liao. He's the CEO of NextRep. He was part of TACL and did a lot with like local politics. He's like kind of more of a private person, but I joined his nonprofit, the Global Leadership Organization, which is part of like the Taiwanese American Citizens League. And he was a big part of my life. He introduced me to a lot of people.

in the tech and entertainment space in San Francisco. He introduced me to Andrew Chow, both of you guys. And then moving forward at TikTok, there's a man named Sean Bonowitz, who was the senior director at Trust and Safety. He also went to Patreon and is now at a new company. He was like ex-military and pushed me to negotiate for myself. He helped me like negotiate a lot. Yeah. And then after that, I think

working at Discord was awesome because I got to work with people who were more around my age bracket, but also took a different path for me and they were able to see me for who I was. And they were there in the trenches with me to build to my conviction and confidence up.

And I absolutely love them for it. Oh my gosh. Well, what stands out to me in your story is you really actually sought out mentors because the people that you named were not necessarily in the workplace. You went around into your community and looked for individuals who you admired and you could learn from, who could advocate for you and give you resourcing.

And to hear you talk about Discord actually reminds me there was like a particular job for me when I worked in tech as well, that it just feels like sometimes it's the right time, the right people, the right product, and things just jive. It feels okay. Yeah, it's like, oh, wait a minute, this is not normal. This is awesome. Yeah, and you just happen to be in the right place in your career where you have the right amount of skill to kind of really meet the demand of that role.

Yeah, but I don't think I would have known that had I not had such horrific past experiences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I've been like, oh, is there something better? But I know it's hard to get a good job. It is. Like your manager and like your team and your product. Yeah. And get paid well at the same time. It is a very, it's a hard and rare thing to come through in a career, right? So, but I want to now talk a little bit more about the, the layoff experience. Yeah.

Um, so you had, that happened in early 2024 this year, but even before it actually happened, you started feeling, you started suspecting that it was going to happen, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you, and you were sharing very open and vulnerable with your audience, you know, like, so the end of 2023, you're like sharing that you're kind of feeling that this thing is going to happen. And then it happens and you share also with them during that process. And then the post of it, always having to like,

be able to articulate and bring your audience along with you on this journey. Once again, I want to commend you on that because I don't know. I think it's just as someone who has also been in content creation shared some very vulnerable things as you're going through it. I know how tough it can be, especially around topics that could potentially be very personal or have certain connotations associated with them.

Thank you for doing that and doing with such poise and sharing of people. But I'm curious now that it's been like about a year. Oh my god. Not quite a year, like eight, nine, ten months. But like, do you feel any sense of like a vulnerability hangover? I don't really think so. I mean, there are people who probably looked down on me because, oh, she got laid off of a blah, she must not be that good.

But like those people don't understand how tech industry works. And it just do be like that. And so the greatest talent got laid off just because they were on the wrong team or they're just paid a little bit too much because they negotiated for themselves. And they became an expense for the business and they're like, well, we're going to go with a different direction. And you're incredible and you're amazing. But I'm going to show the shareholders we're doing well. And it be like that.

So I think that for those people who judged so hard, they are extremely short-sighted and I only wish for them to have their growth arc soon. Yeah. I was like, I hope you go through your growth arc. The challenge is come and you change. But I think that I almost felt like I could have done more. I actually held back a lot. If you could go back now in hindsight, is there anything you would have done differently?

Um, I think I wanted to help share more opportunities because, um, part of being doing something so public and going viral is you, you get a huge inbound, like I literally got hundreds of messages being like, I can refer you. Do you want a job? Um, this, this head count opened. I love to hire you. Can their loss be our gain? It's really sweet.

But I didn't have the mental capacity to sift through the messages. I till this day, I haven't gone through all of the messages. And I wish I could have spread those opportunities. And I tried, but it was the legal stuff, managing the end of everything, figuring out what the next start is, securing the remaining paychecks, doing healthcare. I also got married for the insurance. Oh my gosh, yeah, talk about... Let's do all the life events right now. Just being run it.

But it was lit. We went to a courthouse in Beverly Hills. Oh, I love that. That's like the nice, simple, efficient, effective get it done. And we had at Roberta, you know, just help us get married. She was awesome. I loved her vibe. It was great. But yeah, it was a lot. And I wish I could have done more of it.

I was only one person handling it all. Yeah. Yeah. So some of the relationships that you had from like your coworkers, do you still talk to them to this game? Oh my God, yes. Yeah. So for you, there wasn't really a sense of vulnerability hangover. If anything, you wish you maybe would have shared more or been able to done more. Yeah. But I will say my case is not common. I think in my heart of hearts, I was ready and I was already considering like, Oh, what is life like outside of this? Yeah. So when it happened, part of it was like terrifying, but part of it was like,

Someone chose for me and I didn't have the flip flop. Had I not been laid off, I don't think I'd ever would have chosen this path. And to take this gap year and try all these things this year, I would never would. My risk of verse ass would never. Like, you know, like it's hard. It's hard to intentionally make that decision. Yes.

Yeah. It's almost easier if someone else did it for you. Yes. Like a breakup, right? It's like, so hard to break up with them, but they're kind of good, but they're kind of not. Yeah, yeah. The limbo is the worst. So you're right. In some senses, maybe this event for you was, even though it feels like it's like such a challenge and like the climax of something, but in some ways the suffering was harder, not knowing, right?

Yeah, I think I saw it advised from another person, you know, it's crazy internal, like within the community, you definitely know this person. And he's in the AAPI space, and I was getting his advice on probably a piece I was writing, and then he was like, you shouldn't post about this too much, because you seem like you're milking it. And I'm like, oh, you know what, you're the one who milks your content, like you haven't seen milking?

Have you seen this mirror? And I was like, dude, that was so disrespectful. But it stayed with me, which is why I held back. Yeah. Oh, interesting, interesting. Okay. So maybe, I mean, I think everything happens for a reason and how that was handled. Maybe it was for a reason. Yeah. But I would give myself a very high grade for surviving that time of life. Yes, definitely.

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Well, I mean, as someone who's gone through that experience now, has that changed your perspective on like job security and career fulfillment? I knew job security was everything. I've hopped around so many companies and I've seen so many people get fired and leave. I think job security comes from knowing that you can get a job, not necessarily getting fired or getting laid off from a job. It's like, no, I can get another one. It'll be okay.

I like that you're separating your own sense of confidence from just the external of having a job or not having a job. What you cannot control. With entering the creative space, I didn't know if there was a career here. I really, and I still want to know to this day. The economics is very strange, very hidden, and it's

It's an emerging industry that still has very strange practices that I disagree with fundamentally, which is why I had a lot of struggles behind the scenes on the business side. I left management and the hiring aspect was wild. And it went around management dating a lot to figure out what is this. Do you mind talking about some of those maybe one or two things that were kind of like, do you felt like, mmm, this feels strange and not good? I think the biggest thing is as a corporate person,

and partners this person, I've done it. I've done what you've done, except now, because the industry, for the most part, and I don't know if you've seen this, but a lot of managers and agents are quite young, yeah.

And not that I'm like not, I don't know, I'm not like that old to be honest, but I- It is a young industry though. Yeah, a lot of, yeah. We are more senior than the majority of what we see in that industry. And so I ended up having to coach on, this is how you pitch, this is how you write the email. No, no, no, no, this is not what you use. You like sound too nice. Yeah, yeah. You don't understand what this says. You're using the wrong terminology. This is a timing of it.

I think that was laborious. I was like, why am I giving my 20% to someone I am trying to build? I'm confused. And then also, I'm so niche. I'm very specific in terms of product management tech and I'm Taiwanese American.

And I have these cultural elements to me. I'm good with the business side. I'm good with the mass side. I'm good with the production side. So I just didn't understand what they were doing. Yeah. I didn't get it. I've spoken to a bunch of creators where it's challenging because

You, you've built a brand and the brand is you, right? And you've done, you've worn like every hat in your, in your own personal company. So to be able to find people to come in and help do things at a way that fits for you and delivers on what you want is really challenging. So yeah, definitely hear all of that. I think hiring is, and you talked about kind of earlier this year, like you were trying to build your team and are you still kind of going through that? Yeah, I'm going through it.

I had an episode on Jumbo called working with Gen Z as a nightmare. I'm so sorry, Gen Z. I'm so sorry. My youngest brother is Gen Z. I've gone through his life and his resume and his college essays.

bless his soul. But it's a struggle. I think the pandemic really set people back. Yeah. And I understand the pain and frustration. So hopefully I can create resources to help. Yeah. But dude, what I heard behind the scenes, I'm just like, did you just say that out loud? Like ma'am? Oh my God. I was shook. Yeah. I'm scared. So that was brutal.

and then just having to teach and coach and give feedback. That was really, this is like really laborious. And then I started to, I felt really resentful, like, oh, maybe I'm just bad, whatever, whatever. And then I decided to let go. I actually talked to my friend. I don't know if you know Jimmy Wong from- I think I've met him a couple times. He's an actor in Mulan and there's a lot of other things too. And we went through like a whole reflection session on like, girl, you need to let go.

like this thought is not serving you anymore and what got you here may not get you there. So let's figure, let's work that out. And then accept that one day you will find the right match, one day you will do and just open up that energy to be positive to it. And then I started hiring again, I think two weeks ago or last week and posted for my editor role,

and had friends like Repost and like 150 video editors applied and I went through everyone's portfolio. We're going through test edits and feedback rounds. It's very tiring. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Building a team or once you are wanting to scale up is a huge challenge. I've always been so impressed by Wong Fu on ABG for building that team.

It's not easy at all. I will say I feel like one of the best parts of what we do is our team. And it's really hard to find good people, and it's really hard to build that type of rapport and that morale and everything. But I have confidence it sounds like you have a good amount of submissions. I'm sure you'll figure it out and make it work.

Yeah, I will keep it up kind of closing out the we're talking about like the the layoff experience for any listeners out there who either feel like they might like they're like oh I think maybe I'm you know layoff is gonna come around the corner or like my company's laying off I might be leaving maybe they just experienced a layoff or maybe there's still it's been a couple of months and they're trying to get their footing again. Do you have any like advice like what would you offer them? I think if you're

leading up to a layoff, definitely save your impact points and your project details. So you can regurgitate that in your next interview. A lot of people lose access immediately within the hour, so you don't have all of that. Just like the work that you've done, if you wrote a performance reviewed for yourself, try to keep those bullets so you can put that in your resume.

And if there are projects that you didn't get the report out for, get those results, those would be really, really helpful. When it happens, I think it's shocking, but it'll be okay. It'll be okay. And I think that a lot of friends have gone to me privately after their own layoffs and feelings so horrible about it, and they lost their identity, they lost their confidence. These are incredibly talented people.

I've had someone who she was laid off and she did not tell her housemates that she got laid off. She was so ashamed of it for four months. Oh my God. Until she got a new job. So every day they'd be like, oh, how is work? And she's like, great.

Yeah, just holding it inside personally. Yeah. And I'm not even that close to her, but then like a few months later, she told me and I was the first person she told. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I'm like, it really does a number to your brain chemistry, your headspace. You feel like it is your fault, but it really isn't. It's more of a reflection of the company than it is of you. And perhaps take a time, I think taking some time to step away from that craziness and then

Ponder the questions that you've had within the past few years that you never gave yourself space to explore. I think time and space is what LA off provides. And I think in the buzz of working every day, you never get to those deep, deep points of reflection. I think that was extremely refreshing for me. Yeah. Oh, and then when you're ready, just.

Go full throttle. It's like, play all the interviews. You're going to get it and you only need one. You really only need one. You only need one. Yeah. That was great advice. Thank you so much, Chloe.

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I want to talk about your balancing parallel careers because while you were, and I think we all know like the tech industry can be really intense, right? So you already were building up such an amazing career in partnerships and then product and that route. And then at the same time you started creating content.

And I love watching, like, I mean, I don't know so much about your tech career, because I'm not in those meetings with you, but I can definitely see in your content how being in product and working in tech influences that. And I want to do like a quick exercise right now. I love if you would put on your like product hat and kind of thinking from that business perspective, analyzing yourself as a content creator. And what do you think makes you so successful? Like, what do you think is your unique selling proposition, the USB?

This is an interesting question, because I think I try to overanalyze. Well, I try to analyze, and then it became overanalyzing. I was like, I forget it. These numbers are too small to know. Thinking in the worlds of content and creativity and storytelling.

it's very hard to quantify from the get-go. And the game is to keep going and keep playing until you tweak it and calibrate and iterate until you feel like it's right. And you almost have to have blind faith. This is something you would watch and that your target audience would watch. And it was just like, no views, no views, no views forever until something hits and then a moment comes and the

the gates open everyone comes in yeah so it's very interesting but i will say two things one my first superpower within the product space that helps me is being able to hardcore visualize who the end viewer is and speak to them like nothing matters

if I don't have that person in my mind. So I think that user empathy, if you will, is something that helps me a lot. I see a lot of creators create for themselves, and there's definitely part of that. But if it's just about you, then what's the incentive for the viewer to spend their time on you? And I'm able to think about when they watch it, what mindset they're in,

What they might be going through, how would they want to receive it? And I try to speak in that manner. The second is, I love starting with a blank slate. It's actually a lot of people struggle from corporate to freelance life because they're different. You lose structure. I don't know what to do. No one's telling me what to do. I've actually very rarely had that in the last half of my career.

So being able to start fresh is like incredible. It's such an opportunity. The blank slate first start is my favorite moment. I love creating frameworks. Like if you got a problem, I have a framework. Yeah. I'm that girl for you. And I even, I think within my audience space, they know me for recently I made this

thing called a life PRD. So, you know, product requirements document where you spec out why we're building this product, what this product is, what is success, what are the guiding principles and guardrails. So I wrote that for my life this year. So I have like, why am I doing this? What, what do I care about? Who is this for? What are my guiding principles and who I am and who I'm not?

and why, what is my positioning within the tech space across two worlds? One is like the business tech world, which is like very male dominated, very, this is how you 10x your revenue and make like four or $500,000 a week.

They're very text-centric too. So they're on sub-stack. They're on Twitter. They're posting on LinkedIn. They're not very visual heavy. Then you have like the lifestyle of longer girls. And I think the difference between, I guess my special space is I have, you know, almost a decade's worth of tech experience that I can allude to and share and be like, I've literally gone through this. Here's what needs to happen. Here's what I did. I also am a strong visual storyteller. So I'm not as like stuffy.

I hate that stuffy, I hate watching it, it grows. It feels like you're out of boot camp and you're just trying to get through that, yeah. And lastly, I hate one-up-one-down relationships when someone tells you, you need to do this because I'm an Omega billionaire. I'm successful, you're not. Therefore, you should listen to me. I find that really icky, so I try to share from a place of, I'm a peer, I'm just a fellow internet coworker. If yours is my experience, take what you will. Hope you're doing okay.

Yeah, yeah. So that's how I try to love that. I feel like I was just in a product meeting. It's a lot of like sticking to your gut on who you want to be and who you.

and believing that that person is someone that will do well in whatever market. But I would say it's not a hyper growth path. Many times with JOMO actually, Eric is exposed to hyper growth, high sensationalized type of craters. So he's always like, well, what if we did this topic and I'm like, Eric, stop. Please stop. Like click baby type titles. We are not gonna do that.

because it would just be rage-baiting. And it will get the views, but for what? For what? Yes. I like the digging deeper of for what. That's something at ABG that we focus on a lot is like, what is the mission? Who are we speaking for? Or what is the purpose of what you're doing? Oh, yeah. And in the creator space, because it is the Wild West, which you've stated, it can be so easy to just want to jump on every trend train. So love to hear that you're being really thoughtful. And it definitely comes through how your product background

like plays into how you think through your career and your like the storylines that you share with your audience. But you know, like we've said, these two industries, both technology, specifically product and technology, and then also being a content creator, they're such like hot, sexy careers right now. And I love if you share with people like, what? Oh, sexy. Yeah.

I mean, I think it's a lot of young kids that are like, I want to be a content creator. But I'm curious if there are, what are some of the big misconceptions that you wish people understood about what it actually is to work in technology and product, and also to be a content creator? Wow. OK. So I actually read this question. I interpreted it differently, my bad. Oh, well, how did you interpret it? Oh, I thought you meant misconceptions for people who do both.

I'm curious about that too. Let me think about the tech piece, misconceptions about the tech piece.

Well, I think the thing that I struggled with in tech is that software engineers and hard-stem, hard engineering type roles are put on a pedestal. I don't know if you felt this way. You were a second-class citizen if you're not that. Yeah. And you are treated so horrifically and you get none of your stuff prioritized and they can treat you horribly. When I was working at Google, I remember software engineers would say, we have a real job.

Oh, wow. And I'm like, what? Yeah. Excuse me. I noticed that. So I worked in tech in LA. So maybe it's I think it might be different depending on like the city and the industry. And definitely an ego. Yeah. Well, in LA, it's interesting because people who are in the product role on the business side usually had like a bigger upper hand. But I think in the Bay Area, usually it's so like it's not so tech heavy. Yeah. The engineers literally are like kings. They are. Yeah. They're totally. Yeah.

Even as a product manager, I think product was like the closest you can get to having your word being listened to. But product is such a new career path that in the world,

with your product manager, you're basically useless. No one respects you. But within Silicon Valley, I think it's a very, very incredible wave at Google, at Uber, at Lyft, at Meta. It's been something so specific, and some of the smartest people I've ever met most humble. But there came a time when I had a disagreement with an engineer, and they flipped out, and they were immature, and I talked to one of my directors, and they were like,

Chloe, I think this is one of those moments where you just have to eat shit. I'm like, I know it sounds horrible. They're definitely wrong. You are the product manager and sometimes you just have to rub their egos and just take it because this is not the hell that I on. This is not it. They have not. Kevin, my husband, is an engineer. We are all friends with a lot of engineers. I studied engineering.

It was fascinating from like a superior to be like, just eat the shit. I was like, wow, that's shocking. But it'd be like that sometimes. So that was tech. And then I think,

Within content, the biggest surprise on abusing this, the biggest surprise is that everyone's fighting their own demons hard. No matter how put together, they are online. So many people have met him just like, Oh my God, you're incredible. And I meet them and they are.

not doing well, extremely depressed. They are not going to make it. They have so many insecurities, anxieties and pain that they carry every day. So I think

That was extremely surprising. Yeah. I mean, what does it that they say that oftentimes social media is like a highlight reel of someone's life, right? Yeah. And for any general user, that's going to be the case. But if your job is to create content, it becomes extra pronounced. Oh, my God. It's very crafted. Yeah. Every scene, every picture is so crafted. And I think, I mean, I really like,

this quote, don't compare your behind the scenes to someone else's highlight reel. I think when I consume, when I feel like I'm hate scrolling, I really dislike that feeling. So I do my best to not do that. Yeah. Oh, hate scrolling. I've heard doom scrolling, but hate scrolling is that coming from a place of like, you hate watch it. Like you want it, you hate them for it, but you still want it. Yeah. Yeah. I still watch it. And that's a bad relationship with yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not there. Yeah.

So, I don't know. Speaking of content creation, you literally are in front of a camera all of the time. You've shared in some of your content that you have had periods where you maybe struggle a little bit with your personal style, feeling feminine. Do you feel this way?

Yes. Yes. Yes. I've openly shared and I think like especially in the past year like I've been experimenting with fashion and things like that. With your yoga videos. Yes. But it's very, because you're, you talk about kind of being in this intersection of kind of, you know, you develop things that are very like kind of like for product and there are people who are like career oriented in that way. And then there's like the very aesthetic soft girl kind of thing.

It is like, you know, being part of your job as a content creator is to be able to appeal to that. And my natural, like, I am a jeans and adhesory kind of girl.

How has it been for you trying to adjust to that? It was hard for sure. As a corporate person, you just don't have time to shop to put makeup on. It's not a priority at all. It doesn't reflect your job as much as... You just wake up, you put your hair back, and then you go. And you're on that shuttle, you're on the commute, you come back, you're exhausted, you sleep.

So I think in the critter space, everyone is just gorgeous. Everyone is stunning. And they have the best outfits and the most top notch makeup, skincare, everything. So I think it was a moment of insecurity at first. But then it became like, all right, maybe I can use this for a chance to explore different colors on me. And for a very strange, I still can't put my finger on this, maybe because I grew up with boys.

And I don't have sisters. And yeah, I think when I put myself in a new makeup and new outfits, I felt like almost a new woman. Yeah. And I was like, oh, who's she? Yeah. And it was fun. Yeah. It was fun.

but it was hard and it's expensive. Yeah. And I'm like, why would anyone pay for this? Like, er, it's gonna be expensive. It'll be expensive. Yes. Yeah. I know. In the beginning of ABG, Mel was the person that she would be selecting outfits for us and do all of that. And I feel like I really took for granted because now I'm like, okay, I have to kind of do this for myself and feel comfortable in my own style and things like that. And it's definitely, yeah, it's a different experience. But like you said, I love that you focused on

It can be a really positive thing, and that's what I'm trying to be playful with it, and there's so many things that it can be another tool that you have, right? Like an asset that you can use within your space. I didn't understand the power of getting ready for your day. Like when you have a big day, even today, I'm just like, oh, I don't know what to wear.

I think feeling good about the morning process to be like, I got my outfit on, I had my morning routine on, and I put my lashes on. You know you're gonna have a bomb diggity day. Yeah, yeah. I know you're gonna slay no matter what. Yes, yeah.

It's a little wins and I support it. Yes, I support it. Yeah. Yeah, love to see it. Well, you look gorgeous, so So yeah, I mean you have been now you've done a lot of exploring in the content space and the tech space you're taking a gap year Where do you sit now kind of in like do you feel like you're liking one more than the other? Do you like this? Do you like the idea of a hybrid career kind of what is?

How are you feeling now, bro? Yeah. Up and down, like flip flop all year. Yeah. I was agonizing. Like I was doom scrolling LinkedIn looking at jobs and like, oh, I should interview here blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But I think I'm just forcing myself not to. So to give myself that space, it's so easy to revert back to what you know. Yeah. And so hard.

People I think from the outside have been told oh you look like you have everything together not dude Every video is so hard for me to be on screen. Yeah to write that to film it It's like excruciating like I don't know what it's gonna look like and I have to dedicate myself to fix everything and create it It's not natural so to build that creativity muscle. It's all this year for me all I know is that I

When I really love tech, actually, surprisingly, after I got laid off, I was like, oh, I started reading about techniques and products and trying out different things.

more so than before. Another interesting thing is I'm a tech career creator, so I get a lot of tech type products that come to me for brand partnerships before they're launched. So I get to be part of their betas and understand their positioning and why they wanted to take this bet forward. For example, I was one of the creators for LinkedIn Games when they launched, and that's just like such a left field type product. Like why? That's why. But now I get it, and I see the vision forward and I get to be in those conversations.

Um, the third thing is I do realize I think I can create content for like forever. Yeah. Oh, even though you say right now, like every video is really challenging and very hard. What? Yeah. So, so, uh, is it because you know that this is just the beginnings and you're getting used to something? I think my biggest why is I never want to feel erased again. Yeah. And back when I was breaking records on my projects, I, my name would not be on the,

on the article. My name would not be on this slide because I wasn't visible enough. I wasn't. I even if I spearheaded everything I owned it, I pitched it, I proposed it. The director like three levels above got their name on it. And I always thought, well, what's the point of me here? Yeah. And it was very, very painful. So ever since then, that's why I moved to social media to share. I worked on that project. It's at least real to me somewhere, somehow.

And I think me representing that in content has been huge. Yeah, I really want to fight for it. Yeah. So you're kind of seeing that you like being at the intersection of both and you plan to continue working in both forever. But I can't go back to what I used to do, which is both full time. That was awful. I would throw up, like that's just so much. Yeah, yeah. But I want to see how it can somehow do both in a sustainable way. Yeah, because like, you know, I got family planning and it's like,

A lot of work. Those are a lot of things that we have to think about at the same time. It's a real, it's scary, I'm going to get tired, I have to sleep nine hours. I can't be going out and staying up. Yeah. So you definitely, you like both, but you're just not going to be doing both full time instead of trying to figure out the right kind of way to have both in your life sustainably.

Yeah, I don't know what the answer is yet, but all I know this year, creativity next year, explore how to bring tech back in. Yeah. Well, I love that. Well, I mean, actually speaking of that, your new podcast, Jomo, which you've launched with your co-host, Eric Wei. Yeah. I love, I love listening to it because I think it is such a good- You listen to it. I do. I mean, it listens like every episode. You're a Jomi! Oh my God!

Yeah, but I mean, I think, well, you just kind of being so open about sharing like, oh, I know I like both. I don't know where things are going. I mean, both of you are obviously like, high achieving, very successful individuals, right? At such a young age, you both have accomplished things that some people will never be able to reach in their career. And you talk about, though, that experience and now how you

like what is your definition of success and what is the next step and how you're working through that in real time and being very honest with your audience. Given that, I'm curious, like when you think about your definition of success now, what is that? And then like reflect back to like 10 years ago, has it changed? Like what has, you know, what's been the delta? Oh my God. Yes. It really has changed a lot because before I think I was just surviving as an immigrant and low income family, all this daughter had to really make it.

So it really was like a financial career. Am I going to get a job? Am I going to be able to pay rent? Am I able to raise a family? And I think after becoming a product manager, I made my first six figures in tech and I was like, oh my God, it changed everything. I was in a totally different socioeconomic bracket. And I was able to finally go out to dinner without looking at the

how much it was. That's a very different life to live. It's so crazy. I was able to move out of my dungeon of an apartment with horrific roommates and then pay for my own one bedroom in San Francisco, which is very expensive. All that happened in the span of what a couple of years.

It took me maybe four years to get there, five years, something like that. But it's such a big drought to what you're saying, like the mindset, the lifestyle, all of that to have that change happen in the period of four years is a lot. I know. So to finally be at a point where I

Can invest money and I can grow a future and I can not worry about oh You want to go out to eat like I'm okay. Yeah, see you next time Yeah, I think that's very different like I can take on opportunities and just pay for the uber there. Yeah, that's different And pay for like be there for my brothers and pay for them and take them out like that's huge and

Yeah. And I'm so privileged to finally get here and I hope that a lot of people get to really realize that reality for themselves and then start on the things that they always wanted to do in the back of their mind and their heart of hearts. So today, what success looks like is I think that

at the stage after your basic needs are met. When you visualize what your heart really wants, that inner desire, today you get to say, oh, I'm just going to do that. And when that happens, that alignment of like, I've always wanted to do that too. I'm doing that today. Those are the happiest days of my life.

Like today, I think for so long for work, I always said, wow, I have to do this. I have to do this. I have to do this. I have no choice. And it shifted to, wow, I get to do this. I finally get to do this. That's crazy.

I can't believe it. That is, what else can you ask for? Oh, yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for asking. Yeah. I mean, well, thinking back to even just like creating the podcast, were there challenges that you didn't anticipate? Like what's been the hardest part? My girl.

You think this is easy? You think like just sitting here and just chatting and yapping is easy? There's so much more that goes behind the scenes. Like there's recording day for sure. And then there's planning for it and then there's post and then there's hiring and there's like how do you make money from this? And then it's the chemistry of everyone and everyone has to be in a mental emotional place to have these conversations.

There are arguments, there are disagreements, there are misalignments. I think the hardest piece was I could not get the workload down to less than two and a half days of every single week of my life. All Sunday and Monday and a couple of other days were gone, like pieces of other days. And that's just too much for someone who's not doing podcast full-time. It's always been a side thing for me and I need to go on my journey.

and do that. Like the pod is capturing that journey, but I couldn't because podcasts are weekly and they're urgent, but not necessarily important in my stack rank of projects. So I stopped posting on YouTube. I stopped posting as much. I stopped posting for like three weeks. You found it was like starting to take over other projects that were of higher priority for you. I think the biggest thing was like hiring the producer and the editors. And I've had some horror stories

where we had a stay up until 4am on Monday nights before publish because of the mistakes that other people made that we've already prevented long ago. But they just for whatever reason made the craziest mistakes and were like, no way, dude, you're out. This is a horrific offense. All right, cool. So that was a struggle. Yeah. Are there any challenges with your co-hosts in terms of being on the same page? I mean, you talked a little bit about maybe just your different backgrounds and different

maybe like content, or like visions. Yeah, first of all, love Eric. He's definitely a brother to me. We have this insane sibling energy where we roast each other all the time, but the man is psychotic.

Man is like, you're working. You're a CEO of a startup company. You have your own podcast. You're at every single event. You host Pickleball on the weekends. You're literally everywhere, all the time, every single day. And I'm so glad he joined me on JOMO, but it got to a point where

I think he was open about this. He went through a breakup and like after that, I think that was really tough. Like for me to emotionally support him when he is, I told him like to his face and I think he's okay with this because we talked about this openly, but he didn't give himself the space to heal as much. And I was, and it was affecting his sleep. So he would sleep at 6 a.m. and I'd be like, well, Eric, I feel you. I know I went through a breakup and

Breakups do do that to you. But I told them you deserve the space to heal, to find who you are again, to take yourself on dates by yourself without me, without it being on Jomo. I would listen to it before and after and be like, my guy. It's a lot. Take it easy. And then I think a break helps you reset. It was a really hard conversation to tell one of your friends,

Hey man, I think you're having post-depression blues and here's how it's functionally affecting my life where you're staying up late and then you're coming to recording late and I have to set up everything. Let's take a break. That was a hard thing for me to say out loud and I think it came from love and he knew it came from love and we hugged it out and we

I think we have such a good relationship where we can tell each other hard things and we understand it's for the love of the friendship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that example captures perfectly like the interesting dynamic for like podcasting or maybe just like content like sharing about your life because it's not just professional and it's also not.

personal only. It's like a blend of the two, right? Yeah. So how do you strike a balance of being able to like support and celebrate sharing such personal things, but then also doing it in a manner that is like respectful when it's like somewhat of, it's not like a job job, but you know, you're creating a project with someone. There's like boundaries of how you want it to be run. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to tell a friend hard, hard things. Yeah. But we did that and

To Eric's credit, he changed within the week. He made it an effort. He started sleeping more. We started having really good recording sessions because he wasn't spazzing out and being like, oh, where are we going? And I really love seeing that growth. I'm excited for his next stage of life too. And we still hang out.

We're still hanging out. Yeah. Well, you just wrapped season one. Yes. You have season two in the works. Yeah. What are some things that maybe for listeners out there who want to check out JOMO, what can they expect coming up? We're still deciding that. But what we've just, we had a little retro debrief of season one and we went through all of our work. And I was like, oh, which resonated more? I think two things or three things. One, new set. It's not going to be at my place. We're actually going to do at Eric's place. Actually, Lord DIY went to

Completely renovate Eric's place because he lived in a dungeon with no furniture like he literally I think had a yoga mat. Seriously, it's disgusting. He's so gross. He has a squat rack and then a bed with no bed frame with no blanket. It's just a bed. Oh Eric. It is like my guy. I would never come over.

Yeah. And so now there's a new set. That's that. The second is having guests on, which is going to be dope. Yeah. Because we were like, we weren't sure how guests were going to work out. And the third is focusing a little bit more on the personal growth and self-reflection side. I think one of our videos was 33 lessons I learned by 33. And that resonated deeply with a lot of people. I think when you're in a podcast mood, you want to figure out how to grow. Yeah. Yeah. So keep that up.

So, yeah, those are the three that we're looking at. Oh, that's amazing. Well, for anyone out there, where can they find you on Joma if they haven't checked it out yet? I think it's joma.pot on Instagram and Joma.pot everywhere else. So, YouTube, Instagram, or find your best bets, or you can just DM me or Eric. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. Well, now we have a couple of for fun questions, Chloe. Are you ready for these? I love fun. Okay. So the first question, if you could go back and talk to Chloe in her discord era, what is one piece of advice you would give her knowing what you know now? I think it's

is to trust your gut. Like you don't have to. I think interesting thing about Discord is that it's much smaller. It was when I joined it was like a few hundred people, like two to four hundred people, and then it grew to a thousand people. Oh, that's a huge jump. Yeah, but it's not as big as meta or Google when it's in the 30,000s or 100,000s. So that those worlds were extremely process oriented. Like red tape, corporate red tape, you had to go through the Asana, you had to go through the forums, you had to go through approval queues.

But then at Discord, I think I implemented process a bit too much, and I didn't follow what, if I cut out all like that, the noise, what are we actually doing? I think I didn't learn that until like a year in. So I wish I learned to follow my gut and build conviction and lead with that instead of like, oh.

Here's all the validation points I need for you to believe that my convictions, right? I'm just going to be like, this is what I believe in. Here's a through line and here's a story I see. Do you understand that as a human? Because that narrative works. So go from the problem and telling me the story of how discord plays into the problem. I think that muscle

I had a group at Discord. That was like a hard one. That's a great piece of advice. I think especially in tech, it can be, or I'm sure other industries as well, very numbers driven, but at the end of the day, if you're building for people, learning to get back in touch with that very human part. That's very great. Do you have a dream company that you want to work for?

I feel like there's so many. I love notion. I love Netflix. I love YouTube. Actually, TK, director of product at YouTube for YouTube creators was like, oh, we have open head count. But he was like, it was probably too junior for you. And I'm like, yeah, sorry about that. That must be so hard right now. Like you're saying you get tempted with a lot of these roles at companies that you're like, oh, I would love that. Oh, that's what that would be great. But you're trying to kind of keep yourself accountable to not just jump back in full time, right?

Yeah, it's very easy to just do that. I think the hardest part about, okay, I'm a little tangent, but I think what's easy about working at a company is at every social function, you get to say, I work at XYZ company. And that's your identity. So when you leave that, who do you become? And that's why every creator goes through an existential crisis. They're like, who am I? What do I do? What am I actually doing here? And I'm sure you guys gone through the exercises.

Fascinating to see when someone doesn't give you the answer, how do you come up with it? That's the muscle of this year. Yeah, yeah. Have you been practicing? Like, is there kind of a way that you'll introduce yourself to people now?

I really just say that I was previously worked in tech as a product manager and now I do full-time content for the year and I create educational videos about career stories and life advice. That sounds like a great, yeah, you have your pitch down. I think that's like functionally what it is.

Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know if there's a perfect answer and that's fine. There is. Yeah, yeah. But it's also being comfortable with the fact that I no longer can lean on this other brand. Funnily enough, I saw this with the Ivy League worlds, with people who went to Ivy League schools where Harvard is their personality, and people who went to non-brand name schools they would never lead with.

their school. They'd be like, I am this person. I love this. It's about what you do and what you love versus the school and the brand that has, you know, decades of history that people project onto you. Yeah. Yeah. It's very fascinating. That's a great tip is to think about kind of who you are, what you work, maybe like what you're passionate about and using that as an identifier versus like a brand, you know? Yeah. That was like so hard, but

Also, when if I go back to work, then it becomes easy again. And that was a temptation. I was like, it's too easy. The heck am I doing it? Yeah. Can I go back? It's just, yeah. Yeah. But again, it's like easy and hard. It's like not easy to work there, but an easy fallback. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that tension. Yeah. Tension. Tension for sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, thinking about tech now, if you had to delete all the apps on your phone, except for three, which three apps would you keep? I mean, does a camera app count?

I guess it does. You can only have three if your phone could only do three things. It would be the camera app iMessage and calendar. Very functional. What else do you use your phone for? I know some people might have games or a social media app. No, you're very like calendar. What was the camera and your iMessage to talk to people?

Yeah, like that was what the original function of the phone was calling, but it is, yeah, to communicate with people. Yeah. Okay. The next question might seem kind of random, but it's put in. So for your videos, you cut watermelon. I do. We're just curious why watermelon.

Of all the fruits. It was random. I'd be cut in random things. And then one day, I mean, I bought a watermelon because I wanted to eat it. And then I was like, oh, I had to film this video. But you know how there's a trend where people do get ready to use with me? And it's a visual hook because there's something to see at the end. And you're kind of fascinated by what they're going to tell you. And it feels like there are friends talking to you. I personally couldn't do it.

for two reasons. One, it's really hard to put makeup and talk. The second reason is I didn't want to like.

add to the consumerism of, oh, there's this product, this product. By this product. Yeah, yeah. At that time of my life, I couldn't afford a $50 foundation. Like, what the heck? Yeah. That's so expensive. Why would I ever, when I could just be bare, be me? Yeah, yeah. So I didn't want to contribute to that narrative of, like, girls need to have a bunch of makeup products. Yeah. But I really love fruits. I'm Taiwanese. Yeah. We love our fruits. We're tropical island. I was like, I looked at my watermelon. It looked at me back.

And then I guess we're doing you on video. We're doing this. And so I just cut it. And then I think I did a couple and then it started to become a thing. I was like, Oh my God, I got a stick to this now. Yeah. Yeah. So it was your, your visual hook that you kind of went with. Is that which or is that the proper term for? I think it is the proper term at that time. It was more like, you can't just talk. You got to do something while talking. Yeah. And if it wasn't get ready with me, what is it?

And then in the watermelon as a fruit, just because that's like what you had on you. Yeah. I mean, I love fruits. I'm not that good at cooking. Like I have to be very focused. Yeah. It's hard to do that well. Yeah. The watermelon is not hard. You just... Yeah. I feel like cutting fruit can be challenging. So I commend you because I'm just in the kitchen. It's like not a good scene for me.

Yeah, it's hard, but it's not that hard. Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. Gotcha, gotcha. So you talked about being Taiwanese. What is your favorite Taiwanese dish?

Ooh, um, Oami Saw. Do you know? Oh. It's Oami and Shin. It's like oyster vermicelli. Oh my gosh, yes. That's one of my mom's favorite. Yeah. Oh, I haven't had it in so long. It's so good. Otherwise, it's just beef noodle soup. Have you ever been a corner beef noodle in, I think, Monterey Park or Alhambra? Oh, I don't think so. It's got to be like the best in this area by far. Yeah, yeah. If you ever go out to 66, corner beef noodle. Corner beef noodle, okay. I had it like last weekend and I'm just like thinking about it every day.

Who is a creator that you look up to? Wow, okay. Let me think about this.

I feel like I like different pieces of creators. Yeah. But I think the root of the question is like what inspires you? Like who inspires you? And there are, I really, really like several creators, but they're not necessarily people I watch all the time. I think, you know, Ludwig. Ludwig. He's like a streamer on YouTube. Oh, I'm a lead bud. So he streams on YouTube.

and was a Twitch streamer too. Variety, he's just really funny and then he creates YouTube content as well and he has a commentary channel and he has a podcast and he hosts events for the streamer community and for the gaming community and I think doing that, all of that is really hard.

Yeah. Yeah. And he has a production company. And I think a smash company like a melee company went under and he just hired all of their employees. He just acquired everyone. Yeah. Just to give them jobs. And I'm like, that's so chat. It's like you create economic opportunity for an industry you care about. Plus you don't just like.

I think sit on your butt to record videos. I mean, that's hard too. But he's doing so much more, and I'm like, wow, you really do do a lot. And that's insane. So I really like him. I really like Lily Picchu. She's like a streamer as well, and she's creative and funny. I just, she creates music. And then I think, and she draws, and she's a very well-rounded creative. I like my friend, oh my God, Adrian, who's a film director, award-winning film director.

And he has been such a homie to me. He calls me up multiple times a day to be like, yo, you are too talented to be suffering like this. You need to get on your butt and do XYZ. And I'm like, yeah, you're not here yet. And then I also just get inspired by other forms of art, like anime.

I went to the IU concert this year, that was inspirational. And then I'm watching the arcane premiere for season two this week. So I'm pretty sure that'll be a wave of inspiration. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today, Chloe, and sharing about your story. You are doing such amazing work, and I'm excited to follow along. Oh, thank you. Are there any projects that are upcoming that you want to kind of leave our listeners with?

Uh, yeah. So if you've been watching my stuff, you know that I'm in heads down working on my 30 lessons by 30 video series, which is one video per lesson posted every single day. So that's insane. That is an ambitious. Yeah. You can do it. It's very overwhelming. And then I'm planning the next big project is I'm planning.

my official wedding next year. Oh, wedding planning for 2025. Yeah, it's a lot. I'm overwhelmed. It's been pulling teeth for me. Yeah, yeah. Any last words that you want to leave for our listeners? I just want to say how insane it is for me to be here on ABG because I would say when ABG came out,

I think every Asian girl who worked a job listened to it. There was no other podcast at all. It was such a trailblazing podcast. And I think it gave me a spark of like, if they can do it and they look like me, I look like them.

Wait, is this something I can do too? Like I've never had that switch for me. It's always been, this has been my path. It's predetermined. This is forever. But to explore different realms of yourself and be able to have an itch and scratch it and have a little dream and not like slap it away, that does wonders to a person in their life. So I think that to me back then was really formative and I'm very thankful to be here today.

Well, thank you, Chloe. You are an example. So I mean, yeah, like I said, from the beginning, your story is really inspiring. And you just as a person are so authentic. And I think that you, of all content creators, of all people with tech careers, I just am very, very personally proud and happy to see you representing the Asian American woman experience on this front. So yeah.

Thank you. Thank you. To hear from Janet, you get it. You get it. You are amazing. You are one of the top people that I look at. And I'm like, I'm very, very proud to be represented by you. But whoa, whoa. I praise you. Make a blush here. Thank you, Janet. Yeah. But thank you for being on this episode. And for our listeners, we hope you enjoyed this. Leave some comments for Chloe. And maybe we'll have her answer questions there. Yeah.

Yeah, and with that, we will catch you all on the next episode. Thanks, everyone. Bye. I want to give a quick shout out to our ABG Bestie for today's episode, Tina Lu from Daily City. Tina, thank you so much for your support. You are the reason why we're able to keep the show going. Thank you so much, and I hope to catch you on one of our monthly dear ABGs very soon.

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