Eat your brain happy, with Stephanie J Moore

awful incidents have happened where there have been a terrorist or natural events that have put people through vast amounts of stress. And there is very, very, very strong correlation between recovery of those stressful events and vitamin D status and various other nutrient status.

we can all be going through something very stressful the way we manage it and the way we recover from it can at least in part be determined by how well nourished our brains are. I find that utterly fascinating.

Now, do you have poor mental health? Natural health therapist and clinical nutritionist Stephanie Jay Moore wants to help us nourish our brains through good food. This is the Lizar Wellbeing Show. The podcast helping all of us have a better second half. The title of my latest book and very much my mission to find ways for all of us to thrive in our later life by investing in our health and our well-being today right now.

I'm Liz Earl and it's great to have your company here to take a listen to some of the invaluable experts who chat to me here, sharing their expertise and experience with a conversation about the things that really do work to help us all age well. You know, it's been so great to read all your comments and reviews this past week. Thank you so much, especially for all the very kind five star ratings.

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Well, what do you make of the idea that what you eat can directly impact how you feel? I have certainly become much more aware of how what I eat and which supplements I take can make just such a difference to both how I feel.

and how my brain operates. So Stephanie has worked in the natural health field for over three decades and you might recognise her name because she's written some brilliant pieces for the Lizar Wellbeing platform over many years. She treats both physical and psychological health issues

with a prevention first focus. Her new book is called Eat Your Brain Happy. So to what extent is your diet fueling your poor mental health? And how could the food we eat transform the way our brain functions for the better?

Hi, Stephanie, welcome. It's really good to have you here. Now, you've been working in human health since the early 1990s, but it's only very recently, isn't it, that the discipline of nutritional psychiatry, the study of nutrition as medicine for the brain, has come to the fore. So what's it all about? And how does it have the potential to quite literally change lives? Great question. Hi, Liz. Yes, it's hugely fascinating.

complex, exciting area. What's interesting is that there was a big disconnect for a long time. And the disconnect around what goes on in the body and what goes on in the brain was because it was believed by all the clever people, sort of neuroscientists, that the brain was so tightly protected through this membrane that we have that coats the brain called the blood-brain barrier.

that it was so selectively only letting in what it needed, that really what was going on in the body had virtually no bearing on what was going on in the brain. That has fairly recently, in the last decade, been debunked. We've come to realize that modern lifestyle factors are making that membrane more permeable. So you've got more like a colander where big stuff can get to the brain that should never have been allowed to get through the blood-brain barrier.

But also, surprise surprise, that the body is so brilliant, it makes its own compounds that are able to get through the blood-brain barrier that we're previously not known about, so the influence of how what goes on in the gut is affecting the brain has recently begun to be understood more.

So there is a huge amount of communication going on from our gut microbes and the immune system that are related to the gut microbes up to the brain in a way that was never previously understood. So now suddenly the body and the brain are one. They are massively interconnected. And that's what is now so exciting that we see if we change what we eat, which changes our gut microbes,

that changes the brain in a way that was never previously understood. And that's where the fields of nutritional psychiatry or metabolic psychiatry, these new fields of looking at how we live and what we eat directly and indirectly affect our brain and the chemicals they make and how they clear those chemicals. That's now becoming a thing that was never a thing. And it's really, really exciting because we can do a lot to change our gut microbes as you well know.

It feels like there's not much we can do to get inside our brains and manage our brains, so we have to do it via the rest of the body. That's certain powering, isn't it? And we'll look at some of these more closely later, but so can we now say with absolute certainty that systems in the body like digestion, immune function and hormones are absolutely highly connected to our mental health.

Oh, absolutely. I don't think there is any question of doubt. There are no parts of this field saying, maybe not. It's more about how much and really the individual specificity of it, because that, of course, comes down to human health so much it's about our individual status.

But that is going on is not in dispute. And to start at a place of real positivity, I love the phrase that you write in your book. You say that our awareness that we can affect our brains and therefore our mental health through what we choose to eat, quote, makes the untouchable, touchable. And that in itself is incredibly empowering to think that we're not completely helpless when it comes to mental health and our state of mind. But presumably we're also not saying that food is an absolute panacea.

No, absolutely not. It's part of a much more complex picture. But maybe if we turn that slightly on its head, if we are not feeding ourselves well.

the impact on our mental wellbeing can be really quite severe. And as I try and make clear in the book and I had to be so careful because I didn't want this to be a sense of blame or shame or being dismissive about very severe mental health situations and thinking it's just about what you eat and then it's all going to go away and you're going to be fine. There is such a direct link that if one is clinically depressed or struggling with severe anxiety,

What you eat will be helping how your body manages that. It can be making it worse and it can be making it better. It is absolutely not the whole picture, but it's a big part of the picture. Right. So what we're saying, again, I would hope this feels galvanizing for many of us, is that if you're struggling with pervasive system as anxiety or depression, there's nothing fundamentally, probably wrong or broken in your brain.

it's that your brain isn't having its fueling needs met. And then we can change that. Yes. And I differentiate. There are nutrients and tons of them required for good brain balance. And then there is the energy supply.

So nutrients and energy kind of tie in together, but they're also quite separate because some people's brains don't make energy as well as others. And so if there is a lack of fuel, if you're not stoking the furnace and the brain is so incredibly energy dependent, then we start to see dysfunction and that shows up in various different ways because the brain just doesn't have enough of the fuel that it needs. And then you throw on top of that the very critical nutrients and there are many

that allow the balance of the chemicals. So it's of course it's complex. We're talking about the human brain. It is the most complex thing anybody has ever seen and we still don't fully understand it. So there are numerous ways in which how we eat, how our gut microbes work, how we live can be augmenting and supporting our mental health. I quote some studies where big awful incidents have happened

where there have been a terrorist or natural events that have put people through vast amounts of stress and studies have been done on these people. And looking at simple things like vitamin D levels, general nutrition levels, and people's resilience in coming through those extremely stressful events. And there is very, very, very strong correlation between recovery

of those stressful events and vitamin D status and various other nutrients status. So we can all be going through something very stressful, the way we manage it and the way we recover from it.

can at least in part be determined by how well nourished our brains are. I find that utterly fascinating. Oh, gosh, me too. I mean, we tend to think of nutrients, supplements like vitamin D for our immune system, et cetera, as being so important for our physicality. But the impact on stress and trauma, that's amazing. And talking about studies in your book, you cite a study of nearly 86,000 people that concluded that poor body health

is a more pronounced manifestation of mental illness than poor brain health. Can you explain that one? Well, I think it quite simply just shows how tied up they are. So rather than it being, like you say, a broken brain, a malfunction of the brain for people who have high inflammatory markers around their body, poor immune regulation, poor detox systems, and particularly poor nutritional status,

It makes one much more prone and vulnerable to poor mental health or poor mental resilience. So recovery from something stressful or something that has put you into a depressed state. And so it's about giving the brain the tools that it needs. So one might have a genetic predisposition or you might have an illness of the brain.

But what is going on in your body is going to have a greater effect on how that is expressed and how you're going to recover from it. So the brain may be manifesting the problem, but the body is what's got going to be driving it and driving the recovery. We've got to stop putting these

the brain and the body separately and it's so hard I think because we're so we're so conditioned to think of them as different aren't we but you've got to think the blood supply is circulating from your little toe to the most deep darkest parts of your brain the same blood with the same nutrients with the same information with the same amount of oxygen is circulating around the whole body and as I was just saying too all these systems of communication going from the gut to the brain

means that they are so deeply and intrinsically linked. And I say in the book, I've got a little diagram in the book, there are eight times more levels of communication going from the gut to the brain than from the brain to the gut. So the brain is sending information down to the digestive system. So the gut is the leader. But actually, it's the microbes that are sending information up as far as

setting up nutrients, sending hormones, sending immune system information, and regulating, controlling, finessing those levels of different neurochemicals and inflammation and toxicity that are going on in the brain, largely being managed by the gut microbes and the compounds that they make that allow us to have a healthy plastic, we call it a sort of flexible brain, a brain that can learn new things, we call that plasticity.

That is being managed largely by what's coming up from the gut. It's amazing. That is truly amazing. But I guess on the other hand, there will also be plenty of cases where depression or anxiety is a very appropriate response to difficult life circumstances and trauma. So we'll focusing on food and fueling be of any help in those situations.

Yeah, it's a really good point. And I make that point in the book, as I say, I had to be very sensitive about not dismissing mental health problems as, just eat better. Yes, sure. But what the studies show, what my practice has shown. Firstly, you make a very important point. Depression and anxiety are appropriate responses in certain situations. If your body feels under threat, if there is something off, if there is a sense of lack of safety,

It is very appropriate as a life-saving mechanism that we make anxiety-provoking chemicals that put us on high alert so we are ready to respond to the danger. Now that danger sadly can be coming internally now due to lack of nutrients or too much inflammation and then imbalance.

But the body's reacting exactly the same as if it were a physical threat coming from the outside. So anxiety is an understandable, natural, ancient, ancestral response to life-saving action. It's now being triggered by things that are inappropriate. But one may well have anxiety for genuinely important reasons or be very depressed because life is hard and something terrible has happened. And you are feeling the burden of something that has been going on.

And I talk about using depression. I've got some lovely quotes about depression is a time for us to be looking inward and slowing down. Naturally depressed people tend to want to sleep more. They're more introverted. They want to be more quiet and alone. It's a healing time. And so if we look at those symptoms of depression, those classic symptoms of depression, you tend to lose your appetite, as I say, be very sort of tired and withdrawn.

That is your body's opportunity to heal and rest of some sort of psychological and emotional restoration to take place. And I found that so intriguing because it takes away some of the fear of those depressive symptoms that feel so terrifying to people.

And in some ways, and I don't want to sort of put a positive spin on everything that isn't necessarily very positive, but it is a way of making sense of, that's a good way of putting it, making sense of those emotions and in the same way anxiety. You can make sense of it is your body doing what it thinks it needs to do.

So back to your question. If we are well nourished, if we are managing our inflammation, if we are putting in the right nutrients, our ability to come out of that depressed or anxious state is generally shorter and easier. And even with people who have protracted long-term clinical diagnoses of mental ill health, changing certain things about how they eat and live will improve their symptoms to a degree and potentially

give them complete remission. So one of the studies in there, the Danon study, which was so fascinating, where people were in psychiatric wards, on numerous psychiatric medications, these were very poorly, poorly people. Now they were put on quite an extreme diet, and I do flag that up. That is not what I'm recommending people do, but they went on a classic ketogenic diet, and this is in a hospital environment. They're being very well managed and supervised. There is a

There are a number of psychiatrists and a big psychiatric team and the person leading the study is a psychiatrist. Change their diet.

and the statistics on recovery or some degree of remission and massive reduction in medication is staggering. That's amazing. I think what I'm getting from this is that it's fine when you're feeling low and depressed to go and rest and we know that our gut microbes rebuild and flourish and replenish when we're rested.

Is all of this actually part of a wider conversation that we tend to be having now about what depression actually is? And I spoke to Professor Joanna Moncrief on the show last year about how this chemical imbalance theory of depression is being debunked. Simply prescribing antidepressants isn't working. And is that then because we've got other physiological issues here, nutritional, playing a key part in depression?

Her work is incredible. She was brave to do what she did. Oh, she's been so hammered by big farmer because they're sitting in their sails of antidepressants plummet. Yeah. Yeah, she really, really has. She was incredibly brave to put her head above the parapet, but she couldn't bear to

Let it continue. This myth that pops up something that helps with your serotonin levels and your depression is going to go away. It does for some people, interestingly. And so it's modulating something that in some people, but quite a small percentage of people on SSRIs, the serotonin uptake drugs, it helps. But for many, it doesn't. And there are some really quite hideous side effects for some people. So yes, the model, the generally

accepted idea that depression is caused by a lack of serotonin is really building now and that conversation is getting more and more nuanced and there's some very, very good science to support her argument.

So it might be part of the equation. I don't believe for a moment it's ever the whole equation. How can it be? There are so many, there are over a hundred chemicals in the brain. And just changing the levels of one, throws other things out. It's not likely to be the answer.

So in changing one's environment in the brain through good nutrition and good lifestyle practices, you are allowing what the body is so good at, which is allowing it to sort itself out. Yeah, self-care. And just coming back quickly to Jerome Moncrief, I did talk about her. I had to edit my book. You probably know this from your or your books.

I had done such a big book. It was like nearly 100,000 words and like nobody was going to read that. So there's a big chunk that's been taken out including my talk about this very issue of serotonin that should no longer be the main focus. So that's in a separate PDF that will be available to people if they're interested in going down those dark deep rabbit holes. So good mental health then requires good digestion. Where do we start with addressing that one?

So it really starts with how, so it sounds so dull. I have to say this so many times and I sort of apologize. How we chew, how we focus on food, how we chew. How should we be chewing? Am I doing it all wrong all these years? No, it's not really the how about how much

Okay. And I did realize the other day when I was working with one of my clients and she said, oh my gosh, I was chewing up to about 100 times. Oh, okay, that's probably too much. Nobody probably needs to chew 100 times. But to be chewing well is the on switch of digestion. It isn't just the mechanics of our teeth grinding food when we chew.

There is a mass of biofeedback from your taste buds and your saliva which contains enzymes and the action of your chewing which activates your brain to activate your stomach which sits here and then your stomach in anticipation of their being chewed food.

which by chewing gum can complicate things, chewing the food and the swallowing of the saliva, which has lots of microbes in, is activating your stomach to make lots of acid and a protein digesting enzyme so that your food is held in the stomach and the proteins are broken down. Now every brain chemical requires amino acids.

And I think it's very easy to get lost in the conversation and I'm a big one for it and I know you are too about protein for muscle and bone health and we're all about that and it's all very important. And we also have to remember that protein make enzymes, so digestive enzymes are protein based and brain chemicals are protein based.

So our ability to break down those big molecules of protein into those little peptides that then become tiny little amino acids that then the body can reformat as needed into brain chemicals is starting here, actually starting in the mouth. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna come back to this chewing gun point in just a moment, but it just reminded me that when I stayed at the Viva Maya clinic, one of the principles there is that you have to chew every mouthful 30 times and you sit there in silence and you're chewing, even soup.

you were asked to chew 30 times, that's the challenge. I've got two members of my family, I won't actually identify them, both who are affected by ADD, ADHD, they both chew gum constantly and I've tried to get them off it. So tell us about the implications of chewing gum, what is that doing to our gut and ergo, our brain?

I don't know specifically about the brain. I can only mix up positions about that. But in the action of chewing, as I say, you're activating a lot of systems or sorts of peptides like the GOP one, hunger hormones and all these kinds of things and the saliva. So there is information going on when we chew, important information going on when we chew. And the stomach is therefore anticipating that food is coming.

So people who are chewing gum and not eating. So chewing gum on an empty stomach and then not following it with food. Create this environment where your stomach is primed full of stomach acid, which is incredibly strong and should be mixing with food and these protein digesting enzymes. And it's waiting in anticipation and hormones are being triggered and the intestines are being activated, but no food comes.

And so what we tend to see with gum chewers is increased hunger or certainly increased sugar cravings. The body's going, and we're in the food. We're ready. Where is it coming? So, or confused appetite. So you dull because it gets overstimulated dull the sense of being hungry and dull the sense of being full. So all these feedback systems that are going, it's time to eat and it's time to stop.

tend to be less sensitive. You become desensitized to those signals when you're chewing gum all the time because the body doesn't know what's going on. It wants food but isn't getting food. Now if one chews gum immediately after a meal, those problems don't really apply because the stomach's full of food and you're sort of maintaining some of the action, some of that signaling that's going on.

But to chew gum on an empty stomach, there are some benefits associated with oral health if you get the right type of gum, sweetened with the right type of natural sweetener. But on the whole, no, it can, as I say, just confuse and in some cases interrupt certain important pathways of the digestive system, if chronically chewed, if people are real long-term chewers.

And then of course that has a knock on effect on the brain because digestion has a knock on it. And where does the vagus nerve sit in with all of this? We're hearing a lot about how you can tone your vagus nerve and how important it is stretching from the brain to the gut. What's it actually doing and what's its function? Oh, it has many, many, many functions. And one of the main functions that I talk about is that

that communication system that I mentioned earlier, that four times more communication going up than down is mostly, not entirely, but mostly via the vagus nerve. So you've got this long, long, long, long, long wandering nerve. That's what vagus means coming from the back of the brain. And it goes around your sinuses, your nose, your mouth, your throat, your stomach, your small intestine, large intestine, your heart, your lungs,

So it's regulating our heartbeat, our heart rate variability, our ability to breathe. So that whole system of using breath work and meditation work, calming the nervous system down, vagus nerve is entirely involved in all of that. Certain breathing techniques help to activate or tone the vagus nerve to help it work better. From a digestive point of view, the vagus nerve is allowing that brain gut communication to go on so that as we're chewing,

The stomach is saying to the brain and the brain is saying to the stomach, okay, are we ready? Can we receive food? Have we got appropriate acid and enzymes going on? Once the stomach has fully churned up the food, it has to release it into the small intestine. That's a vagal nerve communication system where all these different

hormones and messaging signals are going on to know when to release the food, how quickly to let the food pass through. And then you have the vagus nerves main superhighway going from mostly the large intestine and some of the small intestine up to the brain sending information about what we've eaten, but critically for mental health.

The compounds that healthy gut microbes make, called postbiotics, are traveling via the vagus never up to the brain. And these postbiotic compounds, they're called short chain fatty acids, help to manage brain energy, brain regulation, something called BDNF brain derived neurotropic factor, which is like they call it miracle growth for the brain in America. So like fertilizer for the brain. So these healing, balancing,

nourishing, nurturing compounds. We are making ourselves in our gut microbiome. When our gut microbiome is being fed well and is happy, and those natural compounds, these postbiotics that are coming out of our probiotics, our good gut bacteria, are traveling via the vagus nerve up to the brain doing some magic. And that's really quite a key premise to my Eat Your Brain Happy book, because that direct correlation between what we eat

affecting our gut microbes and our gut microbes, making these compounds when they're happy, traveling up to the vagus nerve and then changing brain function and mental health balance is so key and is being affected meal by meal, like what we're choosing to eat and not eat and having those fasting windows. So I think a lot of us, especially listeners here, have got used to the idea of taking probiotics,

even pre-biotics to feed our gut bugs, post-biotics is something that we're hearing more about. Can we shortcut this by taking supplements of post-biotics, these short chain fatty acids? Very good question. Yes, is the short answer, but there's always a bit of nuance in there. So the main post-biotic that is understood has been researched and is seen to do these lovely jobs in the brain. It's called butyric acid or butyrate. They're the same thing. They're called different things in different places.

and butyric acid is found in supplements of butyrate. There is still some question about how effective those are. Does the butyrate actually do the same job taken as a pill? Does it survive the digestive system and end up where it's needed in the lower intestine to do its job?

I clinically and personally have not seen much tangible benefit. And my thinking is, why do that if we know what to do to get our own microbes making it? Because maybe, and I don't know this to be true, but maybe individually, we need our own personal production of butyrate because that might work differently to the kind of butyrate that's been put in a pill.

And so you're far more likely to get benefit from your own production rather than a pill of butyrate.

And it's relatively simple to support your body's own production. Interesting. It's actually one of the reasons why I use lashings of butter, because it contains... Yes, which is where butter gets its name from. Yes. So any full fat dairy, we'll have some... We'll have to reiterate. Good, because I'm a big dairy fan. We're going to pause just for a moment. When we come back, let's take a little look more closely at the specific foods and the nutrients that we're talking about that will best support our brain function and, of course, our mental health.

Well, you know, I suppose some people might scoff at the idea that food could so drastically affect something that can seem so awful and emotional, like crippling anxiety or depression, aside from things like comfort eating, of course, which is probably the opposite of that. But I think we all know that things like caffeine or alcohol or sugar, you know, affect how we feel. So should a first step before making any drastic changes to our diet be to really make a point of noticing

how we feel after drinking or eating certain things. I think that's a great point. But I think it's hard for people. I think to try and be objective about how you're feeling related to certain foods in theory sounds so good and in practice can be tricky because there are always so many variables. How you have slept, what your tolerance to caffeine in one day to the next exchange. Certainly sugar cravings are an indicator of the body struggling.

with energy and so feels like a quick fix and you might get a little buzz from it initially but then they'll come a crash but you might not associate that because it might come an hour after having your shit affix. So it can be difficult but certainly I will work with people who are struggling with all sorts of physical or mental problems and we will selectively take out certain foods and you know it's often the foods or drink that

one most loved or particularly craves. And you can't imagine living without. I think we're going to have to start with that one. Oh, good. That's a good indicator. We do need to talk about cholesterol. And this is something I get so many comments and questions about cholesterol. It's become so confusing.

for so many. I mean, I write about it in my book, a better second half, the importance of it. And, you know, it's had such a bad rap and terrible rap over the last few decades, but studies have found that very low levels of cholesterol can actually increase the risk of depression. So why is cholesterol so vital for brain health? What is it doing? Oh, I'm so glad you brought this up, Liz. It is hard. It is hard to clear the noise, the fear, the incessant

questioning around what is the ideal level of cholesterol. Firstly, it is a life-saving molecule. Over 80% of the cholesterol in your body has been produced by your own body, one's own body, which begs the question. There's not what we're eating. Why bother with the 20% that we're eating? Exactly. And if it were so dangerous, why on earth would our liver be chucking it out every second of every day? So it forms the cell membranes to keep our cells healthy,

It's a huge part of our hormone regulation, and it is a big part of the weight of our brains. Our brain is an incredibly fatty organ, and the fat is very protective, but it also allows communication to go on around different parts of the brain, and cholesterol is a fundamental part of your brain, or one's brain being healthy, which is why we see in studies. People and particularly women seem to be susceptible

on statins increase their risk of dementia. I was just about to ask you that. I'm thinking with cholesterol luring medication being so prevalent and having been pushed so strongly in the last few decades, correlating potentially with such an extreme rising rate of dementia and Alzheimer's. Is there a connection there?

there appears to be from the studies. I can't know that from my own personal experience because of course these things take so long. But yes, I mean my clinical and personal experience. But the studies are certainly indicating that and it would make sense because the brain requires such a lot of cholesterol. The last thing you want to do potentially, unless of course you have

Is it called hyper familial- For familial hypercholesterimia? Yeah, okay, thank you for saying that, which I gather affects one in 250 or so. So we're not talking about general population. We are, but I think there's a much bigger conversation, Liz, and this is what is so frustrating, and I know you understand this. This demonization of cholesterol, and this idea that we all have to be under five to be healthy,

loses all the nuance. After menopause, women's total cholesterol will almost always go up because one of the main jobs of cholesterol is to make steroid hormones and progesterone and testosterone estrogen are steroid hormones. So when a woman is not making her own hormones to any great degree anymore, there is more of the raw ingredient cholesterol to go around. So women's cholesterol will almost always, as their LDL cholesterol, the main cholesterol made by the liver will almost always increase

towards the end of paramour and force into menopause. Naturally, and presumably because it needs to. Well, when it's not being used for making the hormones, but two, yes, it is very protective. So it will go up and then

The doctor might suggest you go on and start it and get it back down. And the bigger conversation that is being lost here is, do we really need to get it under five? Or do we need to look at what that cholesterol is doing? Because if it's not causing harm, if it's not doing bad things to us, then what is the problem? Because it has many, many, many important jobs to do. So the reason why cholesterol levels are looked at as a health check, often annually,

is because some of the time LDL cholesterol can become oxidized, it can become calcified and it can be causing a thickening or a narrowing of blood vessels. So that's why it's considered a problem because then you're at risk of heart disease and stroke.

So what if one has high cholesterol, and mine is pretty high, mine's up in the varies obviously, but around the sevens my total cholesterol is around 7.2, and doctors are like, oh my gosh, you need to go to study now. But we need to look at the nuance of it. Firstly, what are the ratios going on? So not just that big total number, of that total number, how much is LDL, the main cholesterol made by your liver, how much is HDL, also made by your liver, HDL,

mops up and taxis back to the liver literally because cholesterol is so precious your body doesn't want to waste it. HDL cholesterol checks if any excess LDL is hanging around not being used and takes it back to the liver where it's recycled. So if one's HDL production

of cholesterol is at a good level relative to your LDL. And we tend to look at a third HDL to total. Then you've got enough of the looker after cholesterol to take care of the LDL that might at some point go bad. It might not, but it might. I'm exactly the same. When I have my blood fats tested, you know, annually or, you know, however, often by my GP, I always have a very high LDL score. And when we sit down and we go through it, it's balanced by saying, well, actually you have huge amounts of HDL.

So, you know, you're recycling your cholesterol. So there is no issue. And I think when you're looking at cardiac disease, you talk about calcification of the arteries.

Presumably a more important test would be the calcification of the arteries to see actually what's going on inside those. Precisely. There's a precursor to heart disease rather than your simple, you know, blunt instrument level of LDL. It's such a blunt instrument. It's exactly that because one could have very high cholesterol. You have a CAC score done with scan to see levels of calcium building up causing these plaques that cause a narrowing. If you have a very low score, i.e. no buildup,

The fact that you have high cholesterol is irrelevant because that's the only worry that it's causing these arterial problems. And actually it's probably protecting your brain and your bones and your bones and your hormones and all the other things. Gosh, this is so interesting. I'd love to do a whole podcast actually just on cholesterol. I literally was with a friend of mine yesterday and she was talking about hunger and I said, listen, just get up and eat three eggs for breakfast and that will set you up for the day. And she said, oh, I can't because my doctor says I have high cholesterol.

and that, oh my gosh, how long have you got? Well, so we need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk. We need to talk.

I didn't disregard, but I really don't focus on the total number of cholesterol. I am looking at that HDL level, but I'm looking at it relative to total and relative to triglycerides. So triglycerides are also fats in the blood. They will come in your lipid panel where all your cholesterol levels are taken. You'll also see a triglyceride level. And we know from very, very good studies that if one's triglycerides are high,

and your HDL is low, that is a far greater indicator of stroke and cardiac health risk, so long-term prognosis of all those chronic problems than your total cholesterol. So the ratio, we call it the triglyceride HDL ratio, is far more useful. Now, the thing that drives up triglycerides

foods that turn into blood sugar rapidly, so high glycemic foods, highly refined foods, junkie foods, no surprise. And refined oils tend to increase it. So things like the seed oils that we're hearing a lot more about as well. So then if you have high triglycerides that will almost always reduce HDL and a poor diet will tend to reduce HDL and it's that ratio that we need to be looking at and there are interventions that can change that.

And if you think about it, it makes sense. The high blood sugar thing, which is a big deal for me and my practice, and I mention it a lot in the book, because high blood sugar, sort of, I call it creme bruleeing the blood vessels, it makes them toasty and hot and sticky. So if you've got lots of fat, i.e. cholesterol in your blood, and lots of hot, sticky sugar, is that combination. Hot, fat, hot sugar together.

that you absolutely don't want. And that leads to the AGEs and all those complex compounds that speed up aging. But if once blood sugar is well managed, your inflammation is well managed. The fact that you might have more than five is an average weight of the cholesterol in your blood. That number five, if you have more than that, sixes or sevens or evens, eights potentially. But all these other things are in place.

It is likely that that cholesterol is not causing harm. It's so interesting and you know I talked about my love eggs and dairy and red meat and all of that stuff as well. How important are animal products for the brain and therefore for good mental health?

Oh, it's another controversial one, isn't it? And I speak as a recovering vegan. I think, you know, that's a good expression. I do know, I mean, I'm not here to vegan bash the tour, but I will say that I have a couple of friends who are vegan. And of all my friendship group, they are the two who struggle most with depression and anxiety. And I cannot help but question if there's a link. I know. It's tragic. So the first thing to say is some people

thrive on a vegan diet. I think they are the minority. And to just put this into context, as someone who wanted to be able to be a healthy vegan, back in my 20s, from a sort of a personal choice, that's what I would have wanted to eat. And I didn't thrive at all. So I now understand why my body doesn't activate vitamin D very well at all. And if you're not eating animal products, you're not going to be getting that vitamin D. My body doesn't

transfer or change the beta carotene, which is the plant version of vitamin A, but it's not actually vitamin A, yet it's not fully formed vitamin A. My body doesn't take beta carotene and turn it into vitamin A. And that's absolutely fundamental and critical fat soluble vitamin that the brain requires. That's important. Not only for brain, but for eyesight. Yes. And interesting, both these vegan friends have poor eyesight and wear glasses and have the eyes and health issues.

The eyes are our brain really. I call them hanging down bits of your brain. Hanging down bits of brain. Exactly. I mean, they really are the way they're wired in and the information, the way the brain and the eyes work together, the kind of nutrients that the eyes need so similar to the brain. Things like omega-3 fatty acids, so important for the brain and of course other many, many other parts of the body. DHA, a component

of long chain fatty acids that we find in oily fish, there is no DHA, zero in plant foods. So one's body has to take the omega-3 that you might find in flax or chia or walnut seeds. I'm sorry, one that's chia seeds, flax seeds. Take that short chain omega-3

and make it into a long chain omega-3 to provide DHA, which is fundamental to brain health and mental wellbeing. My body doesn't do that. Genetically, my body doesn't do that. So if one doesn't have the genetic makeup and the appropriate gut microbes, they're very involved in this too, to utilize plant proteins and plant compounds,

your health is going to suffer. And it's a very difficult truth for vegans to hear. Well, thank you for being brave enough to say it. And of course, you know, we can change our supplement routine and we can change what we eat. But genetically, we cannot change. I have various genetic snips as well. And I have members of my family also that cannot convert beta carotene into retinol, the animal form of retinolic acid, you know, vitamin A. Therefore, they have to have

pure vitamin A, from an animal form, otherwise they simply won't get it. Yeah, and that applies, as I say, to the... Oh, actually, you can take now algae, omega-3 supplements, which are the only non-animal, long-chain omega-3.

but you're never going to get it from the diet, but you can supplement with it algae-based omega-3 for the DHA. That would give you DHA as well. No, it's only very recently become available. My point being though, and you made it just then, one has to supplement and supplement very carefully, even with the best well-managed vegan diet, which takes a lot of time, a lot of effort. There's so much junk vegan food.

That's the trouble. It's easy to eat really badly as a vegan. Yeah, ultra processed foods are, you know, very prevalent, unfortunately, or candy. So animal proteins are sort of highway. They're a quick way. They are an easy accessible way, particularly if you're a caveman like me with my blood type and everything. I just just thrive on me. And that's something I have had to accept to be true.

Am I well-being my mental strength and my physical well-being matters so much to me that if I'm going to do the things I want to do in the world I have to be well and I can't be well as a vegan I can't you can't there are many many people who also can't and

And therefore, yes, that conversation has to be had sometimes. But there will be some who can. And there will be some who can. And I guess, you know, if you know, you have to try and be fully aware of what vitamins and nutrients, you know, choline, taurine, all the rest of it, you know, you may well be lacking. Moving on then, are there any other foods that we've yet to mention that you feel are particularly pertinent in this conversation? Fermented foods, maybe talking about the gut here. Yeah. Fermented foods are so lovely. And we need variety.

So to get a wider range of nutrients in, we need a diverse range of foods, and also we need a diverse range of fermented foods. So we have these families of fermented foods. You've got your dairy ferments, like kafir and yoghurt, and your vegetable ferments like sauerkraut and kimchi. You have apple cider vinegar, which is a fabulous ferment. You have your soy ferments. They all have entirely different families of microbes.

And what we are understanding more than ever before is that the types of microbes in our gut are as important as the number of microbes. So we want lots of them, up to potentially 100 trillion, but we want a lot of diversity.

That's a big number. It's a huge number. It is. Yeah, I can't even think of 100 drilling microbes. No, particularly when they say that's more than there are stars in the Milky Way and then I'm even more. Well, you know, I think if someone's listening to this and they're feeling a little bit overwhelmed, which of the things that we've talked about here would you suggest they start with? So, you know, what's the lowest hanging fruit for us?

Right. And I do try and make that simple. I'm very aware, you and I, we love to go into the weeds of all this stuff and we get very excited about it. And then it can just feel like more noise in a world where there is just, there are such strong opinions and so much information. So I really did try and pull it back and simplify. And the trouble is that, that message can get a bit lost because it can be a bit dull. But the first thing is to reduce, if not avoid your highly processed foods, your ultra processed food, your packaged foods.

That is such a great point. You know, we're going to be having a really close look at ultra processed foods on the show next week. So thank you for mentioning that. Oh, yeah. Well, that's perfect. Perfect. Follow on. Well, and because not only are these foods not providing you with anything useful that your body needs, they are incredibly

enticing and triggering so we can eat a lot very easily and they have a detrimental effect. We know that they are changing the ecology of the body and particularly the gut microbes and remember those gut microbes when they are happy are helping your brain balance to be happy and when those microbes are unhappy there is a knock-on effect around the entire body including your brain.

So the lowest hanging fruit is clean up your diet, have less of it, and eventually hopefully you'll stop wanting it. And then the key for the chunks we're looking at, I sum it up very simply.

fat protein and fiber every meal. And that's breakfast, lunch, dinner, whatever you want to call them. Every time you eat something, if it's a snack, not that I'm a fan of snacking, but whatever you're eating and whenever you're eating, have I got some good protein? Have I got some good healthy fats? Have I got at least some fiber? So your fibers feeding, your gut microbes, your protein is providing you with the absolute core nutrients to build and repair your body and your brain. And the fats are helping your hormones and helping your satisfaction and giving you those key fat soluble nutrients.

So fat fiber and protein in some form are every meal. And I explain that much more fully in the book. Because not everybody knows what protein is and not everybody knows what good fats are. And then from a gut healthy point of view, I talk about the three F's. Fiber feeding your gut microbes, fermented foods to boost your gut microbes and doing a little bit of fasting, having that window of time when your body isn't having to digest food so that it can rest, recover and

balance and send all the right information around the body. And so if we have fat, fiber and protein with every meal and you've got some fiber fermented foods and doing a bit of fasting on a regular basis, you are doing a lot right to help your body help itself.

Yeah, brilliant. Stephanie, that is a really empowering and helpful and very clear message to end on. Thank you so much. Your book is brilliant and I will make sure that we pop details and links to it in the show notes. Thank you. Thank you so much. I feel like we could have talked for hours. I know. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for your interest.

Oh, Stephanie, wow, always a pleasure. And it's really worth noting, actually, as a kind of postscript here, that when Stephanie was talking about having lived experience as a vegan, and that being the way that she really wanted to eat.

At the age of 28, she ended up with type 2 diabetes, sarcopenia and osteopenia. So I think it is worth considering and thinking about this if somebody close to you or even you yourself are struggling with health issues that could be diet related. Well, have you listened to my recent chat with Lucinda Miller, by the way, because that episode

covered specific nutrients that support brain functions like memory, concentration and focus. Really interesting podcast, particularly for any neurodiversity issues, ADD, ADHD, a couple of issues there that I mentioned. I have close personal experience of in my family. Well, if you'd prefer to listen to that episode and all future episodes, add free. You can subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts for a very small monthly fee.

and you get early access to all those future episodes too. Like next weeks, which I think will be a great follow up to today's conversation. As I mentioned, we will be doing a deep dive into ultra processed foods. Seriously, you won't want to miss that one. Have you noticed that your diet is making a mark difference to your mental health? I'd love to hear. Let's start a conversation.

Do email me. The address is podcast at lisallwellbeing.com. And of course, we always swap stories and continue the conversation on Instagram at lisallwellbeing. And if you fancy following me personally, I am there too. You can find me at lisallme. Well, until the next time we meet, go well. Goodbye.

The Lizal Wellbeing Show is presented by me, Lizal, and is produced by Neushka Tate for fresh air production, with thanks to our editorial director, Ellie Smith, and social media manager, Rachel Andrews.