E184: World Leading Life Coach: 3 Steps To Figuring Out ANYTHING You Want: Marie Forleo

The most game-changing work that I've ever done is. Marie launched a multi-million dollar life coaching business. Star of the award-winning Marie TV. An international best-selling author. Can I get a woo-woo? Marie Forlea.

Track your time meticulously for seven days. You will be shocked at how much time flitters away that don't create a ton of value for you, and you'll get an idea of, like, it would have never thought of that if your face was stuck in Netflix or TikTok for, you know, the seven hours a day that you're not working. You book this full of solutions to the most important challenges that you're struggling with.

I found someone who has ADHD so I can have a very overactive brain. I found myself overperforming and overworking, wanting to control everything so I could have a sense of safety. That's where the real cost came in for me. I started dreading waking up in the morning. Like, I wish I could just disappear. Like, wow. Yeah. See, these were scary thoughts and it almost destroyed my relationship.

In the book you talk about these three rules that underpin this figure-outable mindset. Yes, and it's just helped me in every different facet, my relationships, my mental health, my business. What are those? So rule number one is that... Rule number two. Rule number three. That's super important. Point number three. It's the one we don't talk about. You have to be willing to just

Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the die of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this yourself. Marie, when I was reading your book, you talk about how experience is one of the things that ends up shaping the beliefs we have in the world.

What were the experiences that you had at the very earliest of ages that end up shaping the beliefs you had about the world?

One of the biggest ones was actually a memory I had when I was about seven or eight years old. So my parents had just gotten a divorce. And I remember being in the kitchen in my house in New Jersey with my mom and I'm looking at her. And she has one of the old school phones with the cord wrapped around her hand and it was wrapped around so tight that her hand was kind of turning white because she was cutting off the circulation.

And she was on the phone with her mother, who was in Florida at the time, and she was crying uncontrollably. And I'm watching my mom with tears running down her face, and her everything looked drawn, and she was saying,

I have nothing. I have nothing. Do you understand? I have nothing. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And so, you know, there's tears coming down and I'm just frozen in fear. She hangs up the phone and she bends down and I just see like her makeup running down her face and the tears running down her face. And she puts her hands on my shoulders and she puts her face right next to mine up to my nose and she shakes me. And she says, do you see what I'm going through right now?

I have nothing. Do not be stupid like I was. Don't ever let a man. Don't ever let anyone control your money. I need you to grow up. I need you to be your own woman. I need you to be independent. Don't be stupid like me. And Steven, I was just like, you know, as a seven or eight year old, like in shock, of course, I love my dad. My dad's an amazing man.

And I love my mom. And that experience, in a few seconds, I made all of these equations in my mind. And I made all these decisions. And I made all these promises to myself. And I'll tell you what those were. One of the decisions was that the lack of having enough money equaled the loss of love

the destruction of family and so much pain and suffering, like seeing my mom in pain, knowing my dad wasn't there, knowing my family unit wasn't okay and I just everything felt unsafe. And I made this promise and this decision, I said, okay, when I grow up, I'm going to somehow make so much money that I am going to take care of the people I love. And if anyone around me needs money to handle the pain, I'm going to be able to take care of them.

Now, looking back, I'm in my 40s now, I can see how much that fear and how much that desire to have love be healed has driven almost every part of my career. To have love be healed? Yes. What did you mean by that? Because I had this notion that because there wasn't enough money that my parents' love was broken,

When we are driven by insecurities, it can get a little bit out of hand. When something like that, like money becomes your North Star, it almost means that the other stars are dimmed, the other things that form our very human needs. What was the cost then of prioritizing that, of having money as a motivator?

In some ways, it was wonderful because there was a rooting in solid work ethic that was fabulous. And at the same time, a self-punishment. I'm never doing enough. It's not quite enough. This is not good enough. It can be better. I can be better. And for many years, especially early in my career, I didn't really have an off button.

You know, it was working seven days a week morning until night, you know, missing out on whether it was friends getting married or this one or that one. And some of that, you know, it's complicated. It's multi-layered, right? A lot of times if friends were going on

let's say a bachelorette party to Vegas or whatever, I legitimately didn't have the money to go. And I found myself working all the time just to kind of climb out of debt in the early days of my business, for example. So there's a little bit of give and take there. There's the cost. And I think eventually, as I started to get into my 40s, I started recognizing just this pattern of overperformance.

of overdoing, of over pushing. Sometimes I would say to my partner, Josh, we've been together for like 20 years. And I would say, God, you know, I really want to take a break right now, but I've got X, Y and Z to do. And I said, I don't, I just, I feel so lazy if I take a break. I can't take a break. Like there's so much that he's like, Marie, you were one of the most productive, non-lazy people I have ever met in my life. No matter how many times he said that to me, Steven, for so long, I didn't believe him.

I was like, he's lying. He's not as productive as I am. He has lower standards than I do, which is all not true. And it was tough. It was just I wasn't very kind to me.

How do you balance that? Because on one end, the feeling of being not satisfied is motivating. Absolutely. It means that you're always striving. You're pushing people. There's always more work to be done. You're always at the 1% in your projects. But on the other hand,

It's also, for many, a deferral of their happiness and contentment off into the future somewhere that will keep moving as they move off into the distance. Yep. Where is the sweet spot between knowing there's more work to be done but also being content in the moment? Yes, I love this. A, I think for me, it is this ever-evolving daily practice that I never quite get right but I'm always playing with.

these days, it's about recognizing that, you know what? I have created so much. I am so proud of what I have. And I'm a human that is entrepreneurial and multi-passionate and creative. So there's all these things. It's the joy of going like, oh my goodness, I am so grateful for what I have. And here are the things that I am so excited to create. And for me, it becomes this really beautiful, dynamic sense of being where I am

fully joyful and grateful for exactly what's happening and super excited for what I'm creating next. So in the past, it was like, oh, well, this isn't good enough. I'm not good enough. It was coming from a place of lack where these days I'm coming from a place of contentment and then an additional place of curiosity and excitement about what's unfolding next. Does that make sense? Of course it does. Yeah.

How many people do you think you've coached over the last decade? Oh my goodness, I think that would depend on your definition of coached. So we've had over 100 million people interact with our videos. Given advice, you've heard your advice or your words. Was there a moment when you realized that this is what you wanted to do with your life?

Yes. Because I know you went to Wall Street. I didn't know it was very long in the new. Oh my goodness. I failed at so many jobs. So I remember when I was on Wall Street on the New York Stock Exchange, I was really excited about it because it was this place where there was tremendous potential for income, right? And I was around people that were making millions of dollars a year, which is so far beyond anything I could have imagined in my life at that time.

And I kept hearing this little voice inside, Stephen. I was like, this isn't who you are. This isn't what you're meant to do. This isn't who you're supposed to be. And that little voice kept getting louder and louder. But the little voice didn't tell me what else I was supposed to do. And one day, I was crying my eyes out because I felt like such a failure. My parents had busted their buns to help me get through college, first in my family, to go to school.

And I knew that I was so lucky to have that job, just any job, right? Health care, a steady paycheck. And here I was miserable. I wanted to quit so bad. And I just felt trapped because I didn't want to bring shame upon my family. I felt like a total failure. And the little voice then said, call your dad. So I took out my flip phone at the time, which gives you an idea. It was like the late 90s.

And I was crying to my dad and I said, dad, I'm so sorry. Like you and mom worked so hard to get me through school. And I just, I can't stand this job. I want to quit. And he broke in while my sniffly snotty crying. He's like, Ray, he's like, calm down. He's like, if this job is getting you this sick and you hate it, you have to

I said, but dad, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Like this isn't like me. And he said, look, you're going to work for the next 40 or 50 years of your life. You have got to find something you love. And if this job isn't it, then start bartending. Do whatever you need to do again. But don't stop looking until you find something that you really, really want to go to do every single day.

So the only things I knew about myself were that I loved business, but I was also highly creative. And the only combination that felt like it could work in an industry was magazine publishing at the time that was still a thing. And I went to a temp agency. I got a job at Gourmet Magazine. But about six months into that job, which was interesting, I started hearing that same voice against Stephen. I was like, oh, this isn't who you are. This isn't what you're supposed to do. This isn't what you're supposed to be. So I'm on the internet one day at work, probably one I shouldn't have been.

And I stumbled upon this new profession at the time called coaching. When I read this article, it was as though something in my soul lit up like a Christmas tree. It was like the clouds parted and little angels came out and was like, oh, like this is what you're supposed to do. And I said, I'm going to do this life coaching business. And I went back to bartending and waiting tables and just devoted myself to figuring out how to build a business during the day.

OK, so let's go back through. So the voice inside. Yes. What is that voice?

To me, I believe it is my intuition. It is my, when I say higher self, I believe the part of me that is timeless, that's probably been here before and that will be here beyond this particular incarnation. And if anyone out there, I certainly do, believes in a higher power, that there are other levels of intelligence that are actually supportive of us. That's who I think that voice is. Does everyone have that voice?

I absolutely believe so. That's my personal belief. Everyone has that voice. They may not have been trained to articulate and understand and discern it, but I believe it's there. What does it feel and sound like? Soft spoken.

It feels as though you're having an inner nudge towards something that may not make sense to the outside world. It may be counter to all of the social conditioning, the familial conditioning that you've been brought up with, but it is gentle, it is encouraging and it is persistent. I thought you were going to say persistent as the last one. I was like, because I can relate.

Why is it that? And it's funny because I also agree that everyone has that voice because when I have conversations with people, they will often tell me who they are and what they do. And then the second thing is they'll whip out their phone and be like, and I've got this art Instagram account.

and all the other voices infiltrated the asylum, and it's like taking over a little bit. I love doing art. I work in the city. I work in finance, but check out my art over here. It's kind of like the whisper that. Yes. I'm like, that is the voice. That's the thing inside you that's been persistently working away at you. It made you at 2 AM, launched that Instagram account. But most people, because of the, there's another voice at play, which is the external voice society, your mother, your parents, your immigrant parents telling you what work is,

Instagram telling you what you should and shouldn't be and our bad other voice that external voice is so much stronger. Yeah, it's so much stronger. And it's everywhere. It's all of our friends. It's an appearance. It's up, down, left, right. Yes. How does one go about taking the perceived quote unquote risk of tuning into that voice that's just

Yes. Oh, I love this question. And I also love talking about this because I think it is one of the most powerful sources of wisdom that we all have. But there are so many things that we can talk about. I want to talk about a few. One is if you start to pay attention to the small things. So I'll give you an example.

I've actually been practicing. This is going to sound extremely superficial, but stick with me. Intuitive shopping. I don't like to own a lot of things. I'm just not a person who likes a lot of clutter, and I just don't want to have a bunch of crap lying around. And so I realize that sometimes I'm like, oh, well, so and so if I try on an outfit or whatever, I'm like, oh, I think this looks pretty good. And I've been paying attention to like, nope, you're never going to wear it. It sounds so silly, but when I quiet down and I listen, I'm like, OK, I have this little guidance for these little moments of my day on the best path

to take. I want people to pay attention to the small moments, what you should order on a menu, whether or not you should make a move with your partner. If people actually look back in time and start to look in their past, you'll see places where you heard that little voice and you overrode it and you got yourself into trouble.

Do you know those times? So everyone has usually, if you start to filter through your mind, it could have been a financial decision. It could have been a business decision. It could have been about someone to hire. It could have been about saying yes to a job, a relationship. But there were times when something in you was piping up and your ego or an external voice was like, no, you got to go for this. This is a great deal. This is going to get you X, Y and Z. You should say yes to this and you overrode that little voice and it costs you big time.

So I think to answer the question, how do people start to kind of hone into that discernment? I think look in your past to where you ignored it before and you'll have examples of like, oh.

That's what it sounds like. That's what it feels like. That's one. And then I think number two, this works for me. I'm someone who has ADHD, so I can have a very overactive brain. I need to meditate and I need to exercise. Those are two things that help me dial down the noise so much of the static and create enough space for that inner voice to not only feel like for me to be able to detect it more, but for it to speak louder and for me to hear it.

One of the things that sometimes encourages us all...

wins in us overriding the voice, that small whispering inside you telling you who you are, what you should be doing, what you're capable of, is our own fear insecurities and trauma. So like, you can think of multiple times where I've made bad decisions because I've been led too much by my insecurities. You know, whether it's money decisions, whether it's love decisions, typically anything that's like psychological in its roots, so money, food, these kinds of things.

So you might know, and even in the context of a professional career, having the upbringing that you've had where you made that association super early that money results in a loss of love or the lack of money results in a loss of love or a loss of control or whatever, that can orientate you to go to Wall Street as opposed to listening to the voice. How much do we have to like heal in order to kind of turn up the volume of that voice inside and to try and turn down the external voice

You know, it's a great question. I think we're all on a healing journey constantly because I think all of us, you know, we've kind of collected little hurts, disappointments, things from our childhood, things from our adult experiences that kind of get lodged in there. I don't necessarily know that intuition requires like hearing your intuition requires you to heal anything because I think that voice is always trying to talk to you. And I think one of the best ways to understand

It's your intuition and not fear. And we should maybe talk about that a little bit. I can give people a very simple exercise about how to know, is this my intuition speaking up saying, no, you know, like you shouldn't go in this direction or is this just fear because I want to stay safe and I don't want to put my ass on the line. Here's how I tell it. So let's say I'm thinking about saying yes to a particular opportunity. It could be a business deal. It could be, you know, speaking at a particular event, anything like that.

When I close my eyes and just feel in my body and say, does the idea of saying yes to this make me feel expansive or contracted? And Steven, when I ask that question in a nanosecond, I say, okay, does saying yes to the speaking engagement feel expansive or contracted? I guarantee in your body, you feel something. It is so subtle, but either there is a lightness, there is like your body starts to expand like this, you lean forward, there could be a little bit of joy, even if you're scared, chit-less.

Even if saying yes to this is like, oh my God, it's the biggest opportunity ever. Or your ego wants to say yes, but inside there's a part of you that says, no, it closes down. You feel heavy. You feel a sense of dread. That's your intuition trying to lead you in the right direction. Question. Yes. Do you ever do things that are contractive in feeling?

Oh my gosh, not as much anymore, but I did it so often earlier on my journey because I was so desperate for approval and I was so desperate to be successful. And I had these ideas if I partner with this person, if I say yes to this particular activity, if I show up here that I'm going to have

some kind of more stature, right? Or I'm going to be noticed more. So these days, it happens much less frequently. And I feel like that just comes from having skinned my knees enough and tortured myself enough and created enough pain and chaos that I'm like, I don't need to do that anymore. Yeah, because a lot of the time, the way the reason I ask that particular question is a lot of the time, there's a short term

Carrot, I think that's the analogy for... Yes. It's a short-term carrot, which goes, listen, we'll give you this if you come and do this thing. That's right. You don't know if I can do it, but the short-term carrot can be tempting. Sometimes the long-term effects of taking a short-term carrot are dangerous. The other question I had, which, while I was thinking about this expansive, contractive thing, is there has been times where something has made me feel contractive. Yep. But then I've gone and done it. Oh my God. You're so glad that you did. So glad I did it.

I'm curious, when you felt contracted and then you overrode that, can you tell me more about whether it was the voice, like, what made you override that feeling? Money. Interesting. You're going to get paid loads of money to go and do this thing. I think, oh, fuck it. I don't want to travel. I don't want to go there and do it. But then you go there and you have a great conversation, for example, if I'm speaking somewhere. Sure. And it lights me up. That heart lights me up.

Yes. So I walk away from it feeling unbelievable. Thanks. I'm so happy I did that. That's really, you know, it's changed my mood. It's made me connect with people. I'm so happy I did that. Yeah. But ahead of time, you know, it's funny because it's the story I'm telling myself ahead of time that's making me feel contractive. It's I'm telling myself about travel, about time wasted by having to go to another country or city or place. I'm thinking about all the time wasted. Okay. And the money for me isn't a real big motivator, but it almost for me, it's like,

It's still hard to turn down a big number. Sure. Because the money doesn't come to me. It supports the team. It supports this podcast. It supports our show. In my personal team, we have 25, 20 people now. Yeah, it's a lot of livelihoods. I think of it as a responsibility. Yes. So let's play here for a moment because I think that's so interesting what you shared. A lot of what you felt dread about was thoughts.

I wonder, and this would be fun, and maybe you can text me and let me know in the future, I'm curious more of a body sensation, right? So like you, I can be like, oh boy, got some travel coming up. And from my thoughts can generate a sense of tiredness, let's say, but when I'm talking about expansive and contracted, I'm actually talking more about a physical sensation in your body, almost like either in your solar plexus or in your gut. So it's less of a thought generated

feeling and more of a visceral full body notion. Does that distinction? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just I'm I'm super curious because I agree with what you've said in terms of there's been times where I'm like, oh, I don't know about this. And I was so and I got over myself. I was like, you know what? There's X, Y and Z people. I like them there. I'm going to go see them. And I was so happy that I wasn't a stick in the mud and stayed home. So I had that experience too. I'm

I want to dive a little deeper with you on that body sensation, because in my experience, that's usually where the intuitive feeling kind of really lives. Less thought generated, more body truth. The body holds the score. Yeah. So let's go back through then. So we're talking about this journey that led you to leave the publishing industry and decide to go back to being a waitress, but also pursuing the career of being a coach.

Yes. A couple of key things that we kind of glossed over. I know people are sad at home thinking they're in jobs they hate, they're in situations they hate, they hear the voice, they get it. The next part, I guess, there's two parts there. The next part is how do I tune into the voice and how do I tune into the voice?

You were lucky in the sense that you read that article. Yes. I say lucky, but maybe that's not the best use of words. You read that article that came to you at that time. That's right. Maybe the universe sent it to you. The joy is out, right?

If I know I'm in the wrong place and the voice is saying, fuck, Steve, this magazine publishing is not right. But I don't know where the right place is. How does one go about finding that right place? OK, I love this question. So here's a mantra. And I live my life by monstrous. They help keep me on track. And here's one that really works. Clarity comes from engagement, not thought.

Clarity comes from engagement, not thought, what does that mean in this context? It means that every single person listening right now, let's say they have a job and they're like, I am done with this job, but I don't know what else I should be doing. There's something in them that has an interest. It could be an interest in art. It could be an interest in baking. It could be an interest in music. Find a way to go take action in that direction, no matter what it is. It could be interning for someone, working for them for free, picking up a book, taking a class,

Finding some way to get involved in that area will give you not only insight, but it will start to open up creative channels. You'll start to meet people. You'll start to say, oh, this is great as a hobby, but I would never want to do this as a career. I think that all of the insight clarity comes from engagement, not thought. You're not going to figure it out sitting on your couch. You're not going to figure it out necessarily scrolling on Instagram or your phone.

you're gonna figure it out by getting into some kind of action and giving yourself permission to experiment, right? Giving yourself permission to try things and it might not work and that's okay, but you're gonna learn something, you're gonna discover something, you're gonna have a conversation, you'll stumble upon your own article where your own body lights up like a Christmas tree and you'll be like, oh my goodness, this is the thing.

But it's not going to come if you sit at your desk every day, know that your work isn't right, but you don't do anything active to actually go find out what is. But, you know, I'm busy. I've got four kids. I've got a job. I just don't have the time, Marie. Oh, that's not having the time is probably one of the biggest excuses that we can all use from time to time. And it really is an excuse because all of us know when it's important enough

We make the time. If not, we make an excuse. We know this. If you're spending any amount of time on Instagram or TikTok on social, if you listen to podcasts, if you do anything outside of your actual job and just feeding yourself and doing what you need to do to stay alive, you have time.

You really do. You have to do some basic math. I would recommend we talk about this in the book is track your time meticulously for seven days. You will be shocked at how much time flitters away doing things that don't really create a ton of value for you, that don't give you an opportunity to even have open time where you're not looking, you're not consuming anything, where you're not having other people's thoughts, ideas or agendas.

inject into your head where you're just giving yourself time to walk around the outside and take a walk in the block and in nature and actually let your mind think or wonder or rest or exercise or do any of these other things that can open creative channels where you'll get a download and you'll get an idea of like, oh my God, I would have never thought of that if your face was stuck in Netflix or Hulu or TikTok for, you know, the seven hours a day that you're not working. Fine, I'm quitting my job. I'm quitting. Quitting is difficult.

Yeah, it's scary. So how do we become better quitters? I was on stage this morning and I sat on stage and I said it all the time. So it's like, I sound like a broken record. But, you know, we glamourised starting. It's like, oh my God, they started this thing. But quitting is the equally important thing you have to do before you start. Yes. And so quitting is just as much of a skill as starting anything. How do I become a better quitter? I look at your journey, continue quitting.

Yeah. Throughout. And it's funny because that almost sounds like an insult, doesn't it? No. But it does on the surface because quitting is for losers. Yes. Well, if you believe that, that's the slogan. Quitting is for losers. Right. But if you hadn't quit, imagine the misery. I would have been so miserable. And so I think there's a couple of things to it. One, I think understanding your risk of verseness as a human being is very important. And let me tell you what that means.

For me, financially speaking, I'm fairly risk averse. So because of my upbringing, because of this kind of perpetual financial scarcity that there was, I'm not the kind of person who's just gonna burn the ships behind me and say, okay, I'm quitting my job at the magazines and let me just start this coaching business and figure it out. It was like, no, I went back to bartending and waiting tables pretty much seven days a week because that's what it took to keep the roof over my head and eating food while I figured out this life coaching business.

So I would say for anyone listening right now, if you're thinking about quitting, take a look inside. What's your risk of urseness? There's a study that was done in the United States. They tracked about 14,000 entrepreneurs and they found that those who kept their day job as they started their business were 33% less likely to fail.

And so I think for anyone listening, it's like, okay, well, you may quit this job, but is there any other circumstance, whether you take another type of job, you go part-time, like what is gonna be the kind of financial runway or situation that you need to give yourself an ability to see if this business could work if starting a business is what you wanna do? And so after you quit, seven years doing side work. Yes, and figuring out the business.

When you quit, what was your aspirations for your coaching business? If I'd asked you on that day, I'm going to say, you know, how long ago was that? So that was 2000 and 2001. Right. So that's 20 or years ago. If I'd asked you on that day.

Where are you going to end up in 20 years? Oh, my goodness. I had no freaking clue. At that moment, I was just entrenched in my coach training, and I wanted to be a great coach so badly. Meaning, I didn't really have a huge vision because everything was so new, and I think there was so much uncertainty, and quite frankly, as a 23, 24-year-old, I didn't really have the ability to have vision.

I read so many success books, Steven, that were like, you know, and this was like a kind of a line in many of the networking talks I'd go to. It's like, well, what's your five-year vision? I was like, I have no idea. I'm literally trying to just get the next three paying clients. Like, I will coach your dog if you let me.

I will coach, that's where I was because I was so committed to trying to be the best coach I could be and I knew that I needed experience. I needed to work with as many people as possible. So I had no vision for where this thing would go. I just kept taking the next step and the next step and the next step and kind of doing this.

It's not talked about enough what you've just said because perfectionism is one of the things that causes procrastination and especially as we set out to quit and start the new thing. You hear it all the time, I know you do, which is, well, I haven't got enough of this and I haven't figured out this and I need to find a mentor and an investor and a this and a website name and this and that. Whereas in reality, in everything I've ever done, it's this like horrifically messy stumbling forward into the darkness. And even with this podcast, like I'll tell you how it came to be was I enjoyed doing it.

That was it. That was the thesis. Didn't know how we'd make money. Didn't know how big it would get. Didn't know if other people would like it. Actually still blown away that anyone listens because it's been one of the most amazing life affirming things that people care about the types of conversations we have here. But I think that's such an important message because perfectionism, as you write about in the book, you talk about progress and perfectionism and

which one to choose. It's such an imprisoning notion that is so pumped up by fake life coaches and fake entrepreneurs that want to try and sell you something to make them by making themselves seem like they are super special and God gifted. Yes. We're all just messy little unorganized scared.

100% and so human and so this is the other thing like so start before you're ready so Steven I have to tell like as a young life coach I knew how ridiculous it all sounded it sounded cheesy to me again can I tell you my first workshop there's five people in it I was 24 my parents

My yoga instructor from college and one of her neighbors, actually two of her neighbors that she pulled in off of the street and I had created a whole little workbook. I had done it with like Microsoft clip art. I stapled the little workbooks together and I stood in front of five people in my yoga teachers basement in New Jersey and I delivered like a day long workshop.

And like, I think back to that cringy Marie, but she was also awesome. Cause she started before she was ready. She didn't know what the hell was going on, but she did it. And it was like the worst thing I probably ever did, but I did it. And then it gave me a little bit of experience to then like go do something else and then go do something else. So to your point, it's like everything for me has been messy. I'm like, I don't know if this is going to work. This sounds like a lot of fun. I have energy towards it. I want to make a difference. Let's try it.

And what about today as you sit here now? Yeah. Today, it's still messy. I talk about this all the time. I'm like, you know, 99% of what any of us need to do to grow our business. We've never done before. So we don't know what the hell we're doing. That's why for me, everything is figure outable. This phrase is so useful. Like I use it every day still. It's not like there's some blueprint or some roadmap

to guaranteed success out there, like that's not how it works. And if you're someone who's innovative or creative or you're trying to do something outside of the box, there certainly ain't no playbook. So you have to be willing to just try things and experiment and flop around and laugh at yourself and then get up the next day and do it again.

In the book, you talk about these three points of philosophy that... Oh, the three rules. The three rules, yeah. The underpin this figure-outable mindset. Yes. What are those? So rule number one is that all problems or dreams are figure-outable. Rule number two, if a problem or a dream isn't figure-outable, it's a law of nature, right? So death.

maybe taxes. Rule number three, you may not care enough to solve a particular dream or reach a particular goal and that's okay. Find something that you do care deeply about and go back to rule number one. And what that does is it creates a container. A container for us as human beings to be honest about what we care enough about to go figure it out because in my life, there hasn't been one thing yet

that I have truly wanted to either understand, achieve, transform. Do you know what I have some different relationship with? That when it was true in my heart, that I haven't been able to figure it out. And if I don't want to figure something out, like I can get real at myself, like I don't care enough about this to go figure it out right now.

That's super important. Point number three. It's the one we don't talk about. Because we'll all have goals in our life that we think are important. We think we want to do. I want to become a DJ. I want to start working out and get a six pack. I want to be an artist.

They often don't happen, and we end up thinking that they haven't happened because we are an unmotivated person. So we say, you know, we start beating ourself up, I'm unmotivated, I'm a failure, I'll just keep trying at it. We very rarely pause and go, do I actually want to? And this is weird thing that I noticed, which I won't name the person, but they know who they are because I know they're listening.

There's this weird thing that I observed, which taught me really important lessons. Sometimes they're like, we want to want something and the way that I just love you. The way that I describe that is like,

We want to want something. We want to have the motivation to do the thing. We want to want it. Yeah, we want to want it. We think we should want it. Yeah, so we go around saying we want it. So I really want to go and lift weights, I might say. Steven, I really want to go and lift weights. But it's because I want to be the type of person that wants to be that wants that. Yes. So I go around saying it, but I don't actually want it. I just want to want it.

Yes, I had this same conversation with my best friend and we were laughing about this because I have put so much pressure on myself at so many different points of my career because I think I should want something. Yeah. And I'm like, but if I, okay, for example,

I think you'll appreciate this because I think you and I share a similar philosophy, perhaps, about social media, for example. So I suck at social media, right? I'm never on it. I don't put any attention in it. I actually had a colleague of mine say to me, like, Marie, you're so good at what you do. Like, why aren't your numbers bigger? And it was like one of these, you know, like when someone makes a comment and you're like, oh, that kind of feels like a punch in the gut. And you're just like,

Oh, oh, I don't know. And anyone who knows me, my friends, and even my honest, I'm very transparent. I don't spend a lot of time on my phone. I'd prefer to write books. I'd create programs. There's other things. And then I just want to live my life. I feel like I'm like, oh, there's like, oh, if I was really committed to being a change maker, then I would be making videos. I was like, what the hell is that?

Philosophy, like I remember torturing myself, I should want to want that. Exactly. But the truth is, I don't. Exactly. And that's the hard part to admit. Yes. Yes. That's the really hard part to admit that we just don't care enough. We just don't want it. It's someone else's. It's someone else's. And I think that just having this conversation, because I would imagine there's folks listening to us right now that think that they should want to want something and they don't.

And then what happened? So I failed to go to the gym to get that six pack that I tell myself I want, or I failed to start that business because I don't really want to, but I want to want to start it. And then I use excuses. And the number one excuses, I just don't have the time. Because that's a cloaking of, as you said earlier, that's a cloaking of your true priorities.

It's a way of saying, so it's not my fault. It's just a lack of time in the day. There's only 24 hours. But really, as you've said, it's actually how you use your time as one of the clearest demonstrations of your actual priorities. Of your values, 100%, 100%. The way that I always like to keep myself honest about what I want and to call myself out on my own excuses, this is the two-word distinction that has helped me the most, understanding the difference between can't versus won't.

So anytime that I'm about to say, oh, I can't do that. I can't do this. I can't get up earlier to work out to get those six packs. I can't write my next book. I just don't have the time for me. Learning Italian. I can't learn Italian. I have so much on my plate right now with my business. So 99, not 100, 99% of the time when we human beings say can't, it's a euphemism firm won't. And what does won't mean? Won't means we really don't want to.

We're not willing to make the sacrifice. It's not that important to us right now. And so I always encourage myself and other people to play with this. Like anytime you're about to say the word can't, try on won't or try on that's not a priority for me right now and see how your body feels going back to this body truth. Something in me goes, you know what? I actually don't want to learn Italian right now. You know why? Because in my free time, I'm watching the House of Dragons.

You know what I mean? I'm watching this show or that show, or I'm hanging out with my friends, or I'm doing something else where I could be dedicating that to my Italian studies, but I'm not. Why? Because that is not my priority right now. That is so much more honest, and it's so much more freeing, and then all of a sudden, I'm not a bad person. I'm not ambitious enough. I'm just me.

It's such a small, important change in words and thinking. Just that swap from, I can't do something, which says it's not possible. Or I'm not in control, which is even the worst one. I can't. It's not possible to, I won't, which empowers you in such an important way. It says, actually, these are decisions that I'm making. I'm not the puppet. I'm the puppet master of my life. That's right. And I get to call the shots around here.

That's right. And it says, and I think just like, that's not my priority right now. I choose not to. That's not my choice at this moment. You can try on any one of those. But all of a sudden, like something in you, I think, feels the honesty. You feel the alignment. You feel more alive and you have more energy. And I'll tell you, you do that enough. You tell yourself the truth about you enough. And all of a sudden, you start falling in love with the real you.

not the you that you think you're supposed to be, to get everyone else to like you, not the you that society has told you that you have to be or all the people that you compare yourself to who are probably faking in anyway, but you fall in love with the real you. And that's, in my experience, where real happiness and satisfaction and fulfillment comes from.

The other part of that, that switching from I can't to I won't is in the external relationships we have with others because I made the mistake with my partner once upon a time of when she suggested something to me and I did not wanna do it, I would say I can't, right? What I'm doing is I'm absolutely lying to her because she wants to go and do this thing at this place and I go, sorry, I can't because I point at my schedule, I got so, what I'm doing is I'm telling her

I want to, so ask me again in the future because I'm interested, but I can't right now because of an external factor. So my girlfriend keeps asking me if I want to do this thing, and I'm continuing to say I can't. And it's building a really inauthentic relationship. Well, and that's fundamentally built on a set of lies. There was a point, and I think it was because of one of my podcast guests where I just tried being honest. Yeah.

And it was the best thing I've ever done. And do you know what? She really appreciated it. We're going, I don't want to do that. It's so important, even in business and in relationships and all of those things. Someone being honest with you is very rare that it's so effective when they are. I actually took a phone call as I was coming down the stairs to start this conversation from someone. And they called me and said, hi, Stephen, just so you know, this is a cold call. So if you don't want to do the call, just hang up now. But if you've got 20 seconds, let me know.

And I was shocked. Absolutely shocked. The guy probably, I think he told me he listens. And I said to him, what the fuck? That's brilliant. Because usually I'm like, I spend 10 seconds trying to figure out if they're trying to sell me something so I can just crack them with my day. But for him to be so honest with me, by the way, he literally went, this is a cold call. I'm going to tell you about a product. If you don't want to take the call, feel free to hang up now. And I was like, well, this is amazing.

You're like, this guy's got a game, of course, yeah. I mean, what is it? He told me that I went on their website. I said, we use a different tool called Brandwatch. But I said, like, this has been so inspiring, you're honesty with me, that it was so disarming. And I think people are smarter than we give them credit for. So what's happened on every cold call that I've ever received? You know, they call me and go, hi, Steve. Is it Stephen Bartlett? I go, who is it? They go, is this Stephen Bartlett? I go, who is it? They go, just want to check is this Stephen Bartlett? I go, yeah, they go.

So what are you doing with your data infrastructure things at the moment? Because we've got an offer and it's like, no, no, no, no. And then I'm like, get out of there. But the honesty was so disarming and people are smarter than we give them credit for. So when you go around telling your friends or your loved ones, whatever, or your work colleagues that you can, they know. Yes. They know that you don't want to. Totally. So something I want to think you talked about. We talked about relationships there. A topic we haven't touched on completely. It's funny. I know you wrote a book in 2000 and I'm going to say eight. That's when it was published.

Yeah, the earliest version was actually like 2002. It was an e-book that was full of hot pink and a lot of exclamation points. That tells me everything about how you feel about the book today. Yeah, I still stand behind the book today, but it's also an explanation of how things evolve. Yeah, right.

What's your journey been like with romantic love? Oh, my goodness. So challenging like most people, one of my biggest challenges was actually I've known from a very, very young age that I basically never wanted to be married or have children.

Why? So that was just like, it was this inner knowing, you know, many young girls, at least my friends, they would fantasize about like my wedding day. And you know, there was lots of dolls and okay, this is my baby and all that stuff. And I just never had any of those desires or inklings. And as I became a teenager, like... Why do you think, do you know me?

I don't know besides I know it's my truth and I have never wavered on it. Could it be related to your parents' relationship at all? It could. It very well could. Prior to Josh, I would meet folks and be in relationship and they would be like, okay, so we're going to get married, then we're going to have kids and I'm like, are you?

actually listening because that's not what this thing wants. That is not the path I'm on. So it was actually really, really challenging until Josh and I got together back in 2003 and I felt like I had found my soulmate. How much have you thought about how your early experiences have impacted your attachment style? When I look at some of my friends and the relationships they have, they often seem to mirror the model they learn in the household.

Yeah. So I've actually gone. So a couple of things. This has been an area of fascination for me, mostly because A, I just want to be a really good partner and a good human. And especially with Josh, like we've had so many ups and downs. Oh my God, Steven, we've done so much therapy and I'm going to share something. I don't know if you have interviewed these, this couple yet or you're familiar with their work.

But these folks, in my opinion, they were the game changers and it does relate to kind of early childhood impressions and how we were brought up and how that impacts how you interact in your adult relationships. So the most game changing work that I've ever done when it comes to having a healthy relationship is from

Harville Hendrix and Helen Lakele Hunt. So there's a book called Getting the Love You Want. It was like huge, I think, in the 90s and then maybe the early 2000s. I had never heard of it. But Josh and I stumbled upon it when honestly we were in a really, really tough place and I didn't know if we were going to make it through.

Josh had been talking with someone who was like, oh, you guys should try Imago therapy, which is the kind of therapy that they have developed this whole body of work. There's international therapists. They're freaking fantastic. I was like, we must study with these people. So they kind of talk about the fact that every single person, you learn things in your family unit. So for me, there was a lot of kind of smothering that happened at certain points. So I need to be free.

I need to be free." And for Josh, one of his kind of core, and they use this language like a childhood wound. For him, it was abandonment. So he wants to be close. So oftentimes, we will pick the person that has the exact opposite childhood wound. So for me, someone that wants freedom, of course, is going to choose a partner that wants more attachment.

So in their work, it's actually like you choose the perfect partner to heal the very things that you need to heal. So for me, that you were saying, okay, do you think that has to relate to just the fact that I don't want to get married, just the fact that all that stuff, does that relate? It's probably does because there was a lot of me wanting to be free in my childhood, a lot of me feeling very constricted and held back.

And so for Joshua, it was the opposite. But I would highly recommend their work if you have not explored it. If anyone has not explored it, it totally saved us. We Josh, you talk about the hard times in around 2017? We had several. So when my stepson was leaving for college, I think this was around maybe 2009 or 10. I might be getting the year strong. Forgive me.

I was basically, I was such a workaholic, I was such a workaholic and he was so just desirous of just more attention and I was so obsessed with my business and so obsessed with trying to be successful and this fear if I slowed down that would all be taken away.

in this fear that if I didn't continue to work and build, that I was going to lose everything. And it almost destroyed my relationship. It was terrible. We had been together, I think, oh, I can probably do the math better now. So we'd been together about six or seven years. We met in 2003, so it was probably about 2010. And we had never once taken a proper vacation together. Because I always said that I couldn't, because I was too busy working. Wow. Yeah.

I is so funny. I have a friend who reminds me of you so much in that way in the sense that she has an immigrant story. She came to this country when she was super young. She was

bullied in school. She found some, you know, she, she found they didn't have any money. That was the source of much of the pain in our home. She started a business, starts to go well. She doesn't want to get married. She doesn't want to have kids. Her partner has recently broken up with her because her partner is not getting any time from her. And she just works all the time. I watch her and I think you're being dragged by that fear of

going back to your childhood, you're being dragged by it. Like her being tied to the back of a car that's just flying down the motorway. And I just don't know what to say to her because she's suffering the consequences of not having connections or friends or loving her life. Yes.

But her ankle is attached to the back of this lorry and it is flying down the motorway. Her business is killing it. When I say killing it, I mean, she's probably worth hundreds of millions. She's super young. She's in early, she's in her twenties. But she's unhappy, but she can't get off the fucking lorry. It's dragging her. Yeah. What do you say to something like that? I think that it's really important for every person to come to that realization that

they may be killing it in certain areas. And then to be honest enough to say the areas where it's not working, and then I would always come back to if you want this, it's kind of like we go back to everything is figure outable. If having love in your life, friendships in your life, adventure in your life, downtime in your life is important to you, you can absolutely figure it out. And what I've seen in my own journey

And this is my own personal estimation of myself. I've actually become way more successful. I've become a better coach. I've become a better teacher. I've become a better friend. I've become a better partner, not being dragged by my drive, not allowing the fear of losing any success that I've built.

be the force that keeps me from the richest parts of my life, which are my connections. For anyone who's in that space right now, they have to want to make that choice to change and then be willing to, as much as they took the risk to start a business, they have to be even more courageous to redefine their own success at a higher different level. And it takes courage. It takes a lot of courage.

So how did you redefine your own definition of success at a high level? So for me, it was around really stepping back and asking myself what matters most. Like, is it the money in the bank account? Is it the amount of followers or customers or whatever? And I remember sitting in that therapy chair and thinking about what I've grown and then seeing this beautiful man and going like,

You know what? It's not about choosing either or, but you've got a problem, Marie, and you've got to fix this. This thing, meaning the business, cannot be your number one priority. If you know in your heart that love is the most important thing in life, then you need to start demonstrating that. You need to start acting that. You need to start making time for that. God. You know in your heart. So this is the interesting thing, because we all know. Yeah.

objectively know because we've read that it's true. I see this a lot. I see like we know we should. Goes back to kind of the wanting to want thing. I know that people are happier when they have friends and when they have a romantic partner typically in whatever dynamic that relationship has formed. I know that to be true.

but I feel like I need to keep building this fucking business and climbing that ladder and it's such an intense, strong, all-consuming feeling just to keep on going, keep throwing coal into the engine of this train. But I know I should spend time with my friends.

This is where I'm going to go back. Well, all this stuff. So as it relates, and I think those are maybe two different slight nuances. So I would go back to the Helen and the Harville work. Like there's a couple of tools that they teach you, one of which is this tool called dialogue. It's a very structured.

form of having a conversation with your loved one. Steven, I cannot tell you how healing this particular form of work is. You can probably look it up online. They do tons of workshops very inexpensively. They're actually even taking their workshops into police departments, because it is transformative. How it helps people connect, how it helps people see each other, how it helps people hear each other, and how it helps people heal. And when Josh and I started practicing these tools that we learned from Harville and Helen,

Something in me relaxed and I was able to see and hear and recognize and understand Josh's needs in a way that did not feel threatening to my own drive for my own success. It was as if previously those two things were at odds and then all of a sudden everything was integrated where he felt really heard and seen and I felt really heard and seen and it was as though that battle completely disintegrated.

And so no longer was it this or that, no longer was it will either give me attention or you know what I mean? I have to give up this business. No, it was like, oh, now I understand what he really needs, which is not tons of time. It's actually presence and giving him support and love in the way that he can really feel it. And wow, he gets nurtured and it's completely different than how I do.

But again, this is like a practice and it's nothing that we're taught in school. So we're all just stumbling around at least I was. And Josh and I were. And now it feels like Josh is so much more supportive of all the things I do in my business. And ironically, it's not that I care less, but I'm less driven by fear. It's more driven by desire and fun and creativity. And wouldn't it be cool if, oh, let's try that. And only saying yes to things that are like a full body. Yes, not saying yes to things because I think

It's going to get me somewhere or it's going to get that bag so much bigger. It's like, you know what, at some point, enough's enough. I'm sure you've experienced this. It's like, when does enough become enough? I did actually want to ask because men don't often, including me as a man, we don't often appreciate the social battle that

and the social stigma and criticism that women who say the things like, I want to focus on my career, I don't want to have kids, I don't want to get married, sometimes undergo. And I've, I've, because I have these conversations that I'm continuing like cognizant of my own bias in the way that I ask the questions. Yeah.

How do you view all of that? How do you view the pressure that women face to fall in line with the old school stereotype of kids in such a changing world? Yeah, it's really interesting. One of the things I do on my show, MarieTV, is I answer questions. I love just taking questions from our audience and answering them.

And one of our viewers said, hey, Marie, how did you decide not to have kids? And we had never covered the topic before. And I was like, oh, well, let me just want to talk about that. And it was one of the most popular episodes that we haven't we've ever had. And it was because it sparked its discussion just about choice.

And about, oh, wow, you just didn't want them and you knew that. It wasn't a struggle. And I'm like, that's maybe not everyone's journey. And that's great. But I need to be honest about mine because one of the things that we've had talks with my mom about this, it's like her kind of set prescription was so there from society. And it's like you get married and you have kids. And that was, I think, her authentic dream. But it was also the conditioning.

Right? And I just think it's interesting. I like talking about it because I think it's really important for every woman to know that she has the right to choose her destiny. And whether that destiny includes a family, doesn't include a family, includes some semblance of what she believes is a family. Like I want women to have that choice. I can't tell you how many comments were under that video. People left comments anonymously.

who had given birth and absolutely loved their kids and said I would have made a different choice if I knew I had one. And it was shocking.

how many women feel that they must follow this prescription. And I think in 2022, when we're recording this, I'm like, you know, my eyes bulge out in my head, I'm like, no, they don't have to. And we need everyone's gifts. And it's like, I just knew from the moment that I could understand. I was like, that is not my path in this lifetime.

My path in this lifetime is to help people give birth to their ideas and to possibilities. It's not necessarily to give birth to a physical child through my physical body. And so I like to talk about it just because I want women to have as many choices as they possibly can to be as brilliant and as impactful and happy as they possibly can.

Yeah, certainly not a topic we talk about enough, because it goes back to these kind of colliding narratives. The narrative is much stronger than that. You get married at the stage, you do this, you get a mortgage, you get a house, you have your kids. Totally. Before here, if you don't, you're a failure. That's right. We all feel that. Men feel it to in other ways, but I think the social pressure sometimes is a little bit more intense on women to meet these deadlines and these timelines. Yeah.

time genius. Before we started talking, I asked you what was front of mind at the moment, and you said time genius. Why did you say that? Probably for, I would say, almost a year and a half, if not two years, so much of my own creative energy has been pouring into this new program, this new experience that we created, really born out of my own pain.

hit a wall at the end of 2020 where I didn't realize how burned out I was. I think like many of us. And I found myself in this position that I never found myself in my whole career where I started dreading waking up in the morning. And so I went on this journey of discovering and putting together like, how do we heal

the paradigm of living in time stress. And I describe that where it's like, you don't know what to focus on first when you wake up in the morning because there's so many things to do. You feel guilty if you take a rest for five minutes because your brain says I should be doing something more important. You have trouble prioritizing. You feel like no matter how many hours you put in, it's never enough.

So, we put together this program and it has honestly helped me so much. And then I shared it with my audience. I've never seen anything get results for people. It has changed everything for me. I went on, you know, what is it? What is it? There's really five key parts to it. First, it's about changing our mindset from the inside out, about getting out of time stress and living as a time genius where you know

in your bones and in practice that there is always time for what's most important. It's a complete different paradigm. Again, we can talk more about it. It's a little bit too lengthy to get into everything here. The second part of it is when you know it's important, you can ignore what's not. I found that for me in different parts of my life, and I'm pretty good at this one, but I'm always practicing, is if there's too much on my plate, if everything's important, nothing's important. And then all of a sudden I'm working all the time. I've got 17 plates in the air.

But when I have one project, one primary project, and everything else is kind of secondary, my life has spaciousness. I have focus. Beautiful work gets done. It's just a different way to operate. And you have such an easier time saying no to things when you know exactly what's important at this stage and season of your life. Then there's the third step is really about setting yourself up to win every single day. And we're all different in this way. So if you think about, do you like having a messy desk or a clean desk?

somewhere in the middle? Well, I like having a clean desk, but my desk is always messy. But so you probably operate pretty well through there, like it's comfortable for you. I've survived thus far. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some people are like, I know people that are minimalist, and you know, it's like, I love having my books around me. I love having notebooks around me.

But a lot of people don't make an ecosystem or design their environment to really help them thrive. And then of course, there's certain things we can do with technology to make sure we're never interrupted. That distractions don't happen. Different things we can do with our brain. And then it's a lot about kind of setting yourself up for follow through and not relying on motivation, which as you know,

The silliest thing to rely on on earth. So that's kind of like the brief overview of it. But as I've been walking people through this program and seeing how fast they get results, it just makes me happy because folks are, they're lowering their stress levels. They're having time to be with their kids. They're taking walks on the beach. They're getting more done in less time and they're not feeling exhausted anymore. And so it's a really rewarding thing. One of the words I wrote down as you were talking was multi-passionate. Yes. Yes. You said you had ADHD. Yeah.

Is that somewhat linked to your multi-passionate entrepreneurialism? It's a great question that I don't know if I have a good answer to because I'm certainly not a clinical psychologist. I went to the best ADHD doctor in the country who gave me the diagnosis and he's like, you have the gift. I'm like, thank you. I have the gift. Thank you very much. So I don't know if those two things are linked.

Um, but what I do know is anytime that I've shared that phrase with many people, they're like, Oh my gosh, I think I'm multi passionate too. It's the person that has this beautiful business and has that art Instagram account and is an amazing chef too. And it just gives us again, it's a silly little phrase that just kind of gives you a little bit of a playground to talk about your different interest and maybe a way that doesn't make you feel as broken as I did.

What does focus sit within that? Because when people hear that they think of a lack of focus, which is the, as you say, the antithesis of like entrepreneurial advice, it's like focus on something, do it for 10 years, be consistent, focus. So I tried that approach because I read about it so much and I'm like, oh my gosh, I must follow what everyone says because that's the path to success.

And Stephen, when I tried to just be a coach and just do like the bartending on the side to earn money, I felt like I was cutting off a limb. There were so many other pieces of me that were screaming to be expressed. And I was like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I just be a coach and be happy and then do my bartending? Like, why can't it be that simple?

But I was probably 23 or 24 and I loved dance. I was not a trained dancer. It was just something that was in my body and in my soul. And I sat down with myself and I did something called the 10-year test. This is something that has served me well too. I thought I said, okay, Marie, if when you're 34 and you look back and you did not at least try to make dance a part of your career, will you regret it?

And the answer was hell yes. So when I was 24, even though I didn't have any dance training and it was just a passion, I started taking more dance classes and I started teaching fitness classes, which got me into a whole world of eventually becoming a Nike dance athlete. But the point of that is I tried to follow that path of one thing and I just failed miserably. And because I was so unhappy, I said, all right,

Fuck it. I'm going to pursue dance. I'm going to pursue coaching. I'm going to do the bartending. I'm going to let all of my different interests thrive, knowing that I couldn't do that forever. I knew I wouldn't earn as much money as a coach. I knew I was going to kind of keep everything a little bit slower because my focus would be split. But the joy and the fulfillment that came from giving myself permission to pursue all these different things far outweighed any slowness of growth or financial gain.

I think that's it. I think I was thinking about it as you were speaking.

the trap there or the typically, you know, we get ourselves in really complicated positions in life because words, a single word, like find your passion. It's a singular word. So within the fact that there's an S missing on the end of it, sends you a message that there should be one. It's an Easter egg and you need to go and search for it. You can, you have to go and find it. You know, all these words can fuck us up sometimes in life. And one of the words that I think fucks people up when they're thinking about what you just said is

I think at the start of it, you said something like, I know I wouldn't be as successful. Yes, because the definition we're using for success in that case is not happiness. You just ended up saying like, I was way more fulfilled and way more, but I wouldn't make as much money. So if you, if I'm saying like, if you're, if your definition of success had always been happiness, then

And if that was your guiding your North Star, then of course you'd become a multi-passional entrepreneur. But if your definition of success, which nobody says, is just making shitloads of money and ignoring all the sort of branches of expression that we all have and all of interests we have, then of course you would have probably focused on coaching. You might have been a bigger coach, as you said, like you might have been, you know, whatever, not that you didn't get there anyway, but because you did. But you know, it might have been faster, let's say.

Yeah, but I think it would, and the, my counter to that was this. So all of that experience, like teaching with Nike and also being on camera, like in some weird targets and, and Walmart's in the States, like there's actual DVDs of me on fitness videos back when there was like this and like, you know what I mean? But all of that experience set me up to start my own YouTube show, set me, and it brought all of these different expressions and

influences into my brand that live today that make it very, very different than other people. You know, there's some people that are coaches that are brilliant and they have this beautiful academic background or different things. And for me, all of that flavor made its way in and it gave me the confidence and I think a uniqueness that actually made the business that I have today so much more rich and so much more unique and joyful to run.

That's exactly what creativity is, isn't it? It's having rare and unique points of inspiration and experience and bringing them together to create something new. It's like, you know, you're doing fitness stuff. One can see how the lessons you learnt there.

are still in the work you do today. And the example, as I look down at this iPad in front of me, that I always talk about when I'm talking about how, like, seemingly strange things can end up defining you. Seemingly strange creative inspirations can define you as the iPad and Apple, and knowing that Steve Jobs taking that typography class.

was ultimately the reason much of the reason why apple is they care so much about design and detail in typography and that set them apart from other brands which i won't name and you'd never think that would make sense but he cites that in his commencement speech he cites these really obscure classes he took as being the reason why apple is what it is today but in typical narrative we say to like if you want to be a coach

go do a course on how to be a coach, just that. Like, don't fuck music. Right. Which could be a great, fuck breath work or this meditation class, you want to do, fuck all these other things, focus. Yeah. But the best, those that create really unique feeling stuff that the world really has never seen or felt before but needs are those that pull in inspirations from the most bizarre and thinkable places to create a new coaching business. That's right. What are you struggling with?

I think right now it's less of a struggle more of this is what I'm playing with and I'm excited about getting better at. I'm here to give a beautiful talk in an event and it's something that I haven't done a lot of because we've been in COVID and all this stuff and I can get nervous on stage. I can get really nervous. I'm very, very comfortable with cameras and having one-on-one conversations.

but I can get super nervous on stage when it's not like my people that have come to see me. So that's something that I've been working on a lot this year. What does that mean in a like a, a detailed, a detailed practical sense that you're, that's the thing you're struggling with is what's, it's an anxiety, a fear. Yeah, sometimes it's, it's about, oh my gosh, you know, people will ask me to come speak on stage, different stages. And, and I've said no so often because I have so many other things that my attention's on. And I'm a person I,

I like to prepare, and I like to deliver as much value as I can. I want to take care of a host and their audience. And putting together, I'm like, oh, gosh, what's the talk going to be? I can feel my mind going into a super swirly place, and it's not fun. And it was like, I need to handle this. I'm like, I don't need to handle this on my own. Everything is figureoutable, but that doesn't mean that I can't ask for help figuring it out.

So for me, it's about working through the anxiety and the nerves around, okay, well, how can I construct the best talk? How long should it be? The delivery? How many stories? Like a lot of kind of technical things. It might sound really silly. I don't know if it does or not, but it's things that like my head just goes like this about and I'm like, okay, I want to know that. Where does that come from in you?

I don't know. I think that one of the things I've seen about myself is that when I do something enough times, I get super comfortable with it and then I can be really creative and playful. And so I think it's honestly a lack of having done it a lot recently. Like when I was on book tour, it was just like, ah, like it was so much fun. And it had like a very clear focus. I was like, oh, we're talking about the book and all the content was right there. But when things are more freeform,

I'm so creative that it can get like wild and crazy. So I want to put containers around stuff and give myself more opportunities to do it in a way where it feels really fun. What about personally? What are you struggling with personally? That was a professional example. Okay, personally. Struggling.

I don't, and this is not, I'm probably going to sound like a total asshole. So I'll just say that out loud. At this particular moment, I don't feel a sense of struggle around something consistently in my personal life. Like I feel, I spent so much time over the past couple of years, we were talking about the time genius stuff, like really taking care of my mental health and really starting to kind of

unprogram and reprogram some of the stuff that I've tortured myself with in the past that I finally feel such a level of peace and acceptance of like who I am. And Josh and I have done so much work and I feel so grateful and he's the person I spend the most time with.

And we have just such a, I'm so grateful for our relationship. So in the personal realm, there's not one that comes up right now. That doesn't mean it's not going to come up. So if I asked Josh, if I'd called him this morning and said, Josh, what does Marie struggle with personally? What would he say? He might say, oh, I know what he would say. He would probably say being hard on herself.

being hard on herself, like basically before I was coming here and getting there, I was like, you think the talk's gonna go okay? It's like, it's gonna go great. Like, you know, I can have those, like just like, is it gonna all be okay? Like that kind of stuff. And yeah, I think he's just like, he's consistently my champion for being nicer to myself. Like if he catches me, sometimes I won't catch it myself if I'm going into a mode of like really getting focused and, you know, maybe working a little too long is like, have you eaten? I'm like, thank you.

Because I have not or something like that. Are you still being dragged? You know, I don't feel that way that that's the honest to goodness truth. We had a there was a couple of opportunities that came up specifically around this trip. And I've heard that you should do that, right? I heard that voice and I was and I just politely declined. And I didn't feel any guilt about it. I was like,

It, that felt new for me, to be honest, because I've gone on trips and work trips and things like that. And like every moment of every day, you know what I mean? Was packed so that you could maximize every opportunity. And before I came here to see you, like I was with my team and like shopping for a pair of jeans that I really wanted. And it was, it was lovely.

in everything is figureoutable in chapter 10. Yes. The world needs your special gift. Yes. That's the name of the chapter. There's a quote. You say, most high-cheever struggle with feeling like a fake, but never talk about it. It's like a dirty little secret. Everyone's afraid to admit, I'll tell you right now, I still feel this way at times. And I've been doing this work for almost two decades. Do you feel like a fake sometimes?

Oh, yeah. I mean, what we were just talking about with the speaking things, like I have the voice in my head, Stephen, like you've been coaching and working with people for over 20 years. Like why are you? How do you still have anxiety about getting up on a stage? I can see emotion in your face. Oh, totally. Because it's like so much.

Judgment like it's still there even though I do it. It's but it's like I talked to my best friend about this All the time and she was like Marie you're doing great, but it was like I still have that voice That's like you should be able to just walk up on any stage at a moment's notice and like fucking crush it, but it's just not the truth

I can't do that. And so that voice is still there. And when I hear it, I continue to practice to be kind to myself and go, it's okay. You're doing okay. Do you feel like you're enough? I, and I'm better at this than I've ever been. I'm not nowhere near perfect. Please know, but I am so much less susceptible than I used to be.

You know, like I was telling you about that person that said, you're so good at what you do. Like why aren't your numbers bigger that conversation? I felt like such shit, right? And it was just like, Oh God, you know, like you have you've been doing it. Why aren't your numbers bigger? Like so that if I'm in, if I get sucked into that conversation, I absolutely do not feel like enough. A hundred percent.

when I have enough perspective or when I can, you know what I mean? Like get sober from that. I'm like, dude, everything is like, I'm so happy. How do I get sober from that?

One of the ways that I did, I realized that for me, and this is just me personally, being on social was not healthy for me. It was not because in any given moment, you're either engaged in your life and creating and just being with people, you're making a meal or whatever you do.

Or for me, like even just being on there, it's like, it's almost like a little thought worm gets in and then two o'clock in the morning you wake up and you're like, why am I not doing X and X? Like so and so is or I should be doing this. Like it's that whole conversation. I should be wanting this or I should be doing this. And I found it to be really toxic for me.

I found it to be really unhealthy for me where I was like, wow, if I'm on this thing, I find that I'm comparing myself. And when I'm not on this thing, I'm like, yeah, I'm so happy. I'm really creatively productive. I'm more prolific. I'm a better leader. I'm a better partner. I'm just happy. So I actually don't spend hardly any, I don't do it at all.

There'll be people that want to be coaches or that might pursue careers in creating that feel the same way. But they could buy my business. How am I going to be successful in my business if I'm not on social media? Sure. Sure. I think that there are really helpful and useful ways to do so. And I think that it doesn't have to take a lot of money. It just takes a little bit of creativity and it takes some really strong personal boundaries and standards. So for instance, at this point in the game,

You know, I have a team you've met some of them today. Like, we'll create content and they'll post it. It's not much different than me with my YouTube show or my podcast. I'm not necessarily the one going on YouTube to upload things. Does that make sense? I have no money. Oh, I have no money.

Well, this is something you could probably get an intern. This is one of the things that's everything is figure outable. You can absolutely figure it out. Even if you had to work a little bit extra, if you were a bartender like me or waiting tables, and one of your shifts was devoted to hiring someone to post things for you, you could figure it out. Or you could set limits for yourself, Instagram, and I don't know because I don't know much about the app because I'm not in there much.

But I know that you can turn off, or at least mine is, you don't have to see the amounts of likes on anything. You just actually see an image or whatever. And so you can kind of craft the tools so that you keep yourself away from the things that fuck you up. And then you go on and I showed this to an artist friend of mine who was absolutely drowning

because she was comparing herself to all these other artists. And I showed her how to mute things. Because she loves those human beings, but it's just her own ego gets so sucked. Right? So it's like she wishes all of these people well. She's a beautiful person who wants everybody to be successful. But like most of us, it's built into our neurology. It's built into our biology to compare ourselves. And if you spend enough time on that, you're going to wind up feeling like shit.

It's funny, you said something earlier where we were talking about kids and you said, the advice you'd like to give to women is just all the narrative you'd like to put out there to women is that, by the way, it is a choice. No one ever said that to me about social media, that I could be intentional about how I use it. We download the app. It says, put your name in. We do as we're told. And then, quite clearly, because of the comparison psychology, we're like, OK, I need to make this number bigger and these numbers as big as possible. That's what I'm doing here.

The pause I had maybe a couple of years ago was like, the harm is done and I'm choosing to follow people. And this like a library is now the greatest influence over my world view, my view of myself in the world is the me just hitting that follow bank. I'll follow Kim Kardashian, Kylie. Oh, this accounts called get rich, become a millionaire. And it's posting Lamborghinis follow. And what you're doing is you're populating your library with junk values. And then you're going to pay the price.

you're going to pay the price for that. So this idea that I could just mute everyone came to me maybe three years ago. And honestly, if you're listening to this and I follow you, there's a reason why I'm not in your story views, because 95% of people are muted. The people that really mattered have my WhatsApp. They send me like inappropriate gifts and completely memes and stuff. Like you know where I'm at. Yeah. So yeah, and I'd never post anything personal in terms of what I'm doing in my life where I got on holiday, what I drive, whatever.

On their anyway, I don't want to play those games. I post ideas. And I actually don't post it myself either because I'm fortunate enough to have a team. But that point about being really intentional about the tool. That is. That's really the key point because all the rest of it. And there is, it's not like I haven't, I have posted. And if I was starting over again and I felt like that was actually a good tool for my message to get out and I said, OK, this is great for me. How can I batch?

Yeah. How can I do this and get great? I'm going to schedule this up. They're scheduling. There's all kinds of different tools. And to your point, I loved the word that you use. How can I be intentional about this? How can I use this medium in a way that's going to help me serve and connect with people that I really want to connect with and absolutely minimize or eliminate the downsides?

And you can. And you can. And I think that's what's really, really important. And I think there's too many people who think that you have to be on it all the time. And for some people, if they enjoy it, go on with your bad self. I just realized that's not me.

We don't realize the role that media is having on our values and our psyche and our mental health and our well-being. I read this wonderful study. He basically exposed them to certain media to an advert with a toy in it. The children that watched the advert with the toy in it versus the children that didn't watch the advert with the toy in it were then asked, who do you want to play with? A really nasty person, a really mean person.

that's holding the toy, or a really wonderful human being, a really lovely kid that didn't have the toy. Those that had seen the advert, the kids that had seen the advert, always chose to go and hang around with and play with the nasty kid with the toy. And what that shows is how the media, that influence, the glamorization of that toy shifted

your values and a really fundamental level. And if you think about that, you zoom out on an adult's life and how something they see consume in this digital library can make them skew their orientation towards junk values and how that will lead them to like unfulfillment, a burnout, bad connections, bad relationships, you've got to be intentional about that library.

I'll say one thing too that I've shared with my audience that maybe some folks in yours will find useful, especially if you are a person who consumes social media or other media content when you first wake up in the morning, I think 85% of folks who own cell phones do create before you consume, create before you consume, whether it's creating a stronger mindset, a stronger body, spending time in nature, being with your partner.

writing that song, creating that piece of art, just create before you consume. And it's like a really fun mantra that you can use anytime during the day. Like if you're going to pick up your phone, because you're insecure, you're uncertain, you're uncomfortable, you're fearful, you don't know what to do next. So you're like, well, let me go for my little, you know,

addict thing, create before you consume. Let it be a pause and ask yourself, what do I really want to create right now? Do I want to consume other people's ideas? Do I want to get sucked into this hole? Or is there something I want to create? Is there a meal I want to make? Is there a walk I want to take? Is there a friend I want to reach out to? Do I want to take a picture and send it to my best friend and say, Oh my God, I'm thinking of you, you know, whatever it is. But this notion of just creating before we consume, again, that's just been another one that that's helped me.

It's so powerful. It's so simple. And I definitely need to heed that advice because I wake up and I look at my words to happen and say, oh, fuck. You know, especially when you've got like global like businesses and different time zones, waking up to a crisis every day is not the best place.

But listen, Murray, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question in the diary of a CEO, which is on the table here. This is the efficient diary of a CEO. This is the one of one where they ask a question for the next guest. They don't know who they're asking it for, and I don't get to see it until I open the book.

So here we go. Handwriting is interesting, so give me a second. What lesson have you learned from your lowest point? And is there anything about it that you're grateful for? I don't know if there's one specific lowest point, but I'll choose one.

The lesson that I learned from a low point was to always trust my instincts and to not outsource wisdom, to not outsource what I should do, to not look to other people.

to find the wisdom that already is within me. And I think that trusting of that little voice and to never, ever, ever, ever doubt it. That was probably, that's the lesson I keep getting in my life and I keep adhering to and learning on different levels. And am I grateful for it? 100% because I feel like every time I have a low point in struggle and go within rather than go without,

I develop an intimate relationship even deeper with myself and I have a greater level of trust and faith that not only is everything figureoutable, but that there is a higher intelligence. There is a greater wisdom that is absolutely on my side and that it has nothing to do with external tools or external people or external expectations. And then if I'm quiet enough and courageous enough to be still the answers within. Well, what's that lowest point?

The one I was thinking of was actually when Josh and I were sitting on the couch and he told me, I don't think I love you anymore. I think this is done. And I was in such shock. This was, remember when we were talking about how there was like a, we've had many ups and downs, but this was one where we were sitting and I was looking at him and I felt that his heart was like so not available. It wasn't just a normal fight.

And Stephen, my gut dropped and I felt, it was like all the oxygen got sucked out of the room and I felt like I had fucked up the best relationship that I had ever had with my work addiction. And I remember it was a moment of either like feeling fearful, like, okay, this is done and I need a defense mechanism, which would be some version of screw you get at, do you know what I mean? Like, fine, it's over.

And then I said, I remember saying, he said, I don't think I love you anymore. And I said, that's not true. And I was like, this is not over. But it did not come from like a, it sounds super aggressive. I know that that sounds really scary. But there was, and I'm not kidding you, there was this inner voice that I was like, he's hurt your hurt fight for this.

fight for this relationship. Do not let this go. So that inner voice, you know, it's easy, especially for someone like me when when I can get hurt, like there's a somewhat of a natural or at least back at that time to be defensive, right? And say, you know, I don't love you. This is done. I'm walking out. I don't need you.

And I was like, you fucking be humble and you fight for this relationship. And I remember sitting there and telling him that this wasn't over. I understand that he believes he doesn't love me anymore. I said, I still love you more than anything. And I'm willing to do whatever it takes to see if this can be repaired.

And I asked him, I said, I'm willing to do anything. We can go to therapy, whatever, but are you willing to at least take a step to see if it's possible? Because I think this is the greatest love of my life and I don't want to lose you.

I saw something in him crack, meaning that I could see he was hurt and he didn't know I cared that much. And I think it took me being so a little bit aggressive, but also really loving in that moment and saying, I am willing to fight for this and I don't want to lose you. And yeah, I've probably been an asshole, but I'm willing to work on it and I want to fix it.

And so it was that inner voice that there was like, fuck him. Like, you know, it was like, leave whatever, but the deeper voice it fight for this. And I'm so grateful that I listened to that rather than the whiny egoic voice that was just hurt and felt rejected.

Mary, thank you. Thank you for, I mean, so much. I mean, I could sit here and talk to you for five hours around all of these topics because I learned so much. You've got such a bullshit free experience based, wise, unique perspective on challenges that so many people are solving. And these are all the most important challenges that

Your book, Everything is Figureoutable, is full of solutions to the most important challenges that I get every day. That's why I said to you before we started recording. It was so hard to try and condense my notes on this conversation because these are all the questions that I'm being asked and you've answered them in an original, a thoughtful and an experienced based way from your own truth, not from something you've read somewhere or from cliche. That is so important and also time genius.

I mean, your description of that, I mean, it rings true to have so many people in my life. I think maybe too many people in my life. So it's wonderful that you've got a resource out there that everyone can access that I have no doubt in my mind that they will. That will really go to serve people and help them go on that journey of finding out their true fulfilled self and aligning themselves a little bit better against that external voice.

and a little bit closer to that internal voice. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom, your honesty, your vulnerability and everything you're doing for so many people because it's really important. And I think a lot about the coaching space and it's heavily dominated, especially at the top by men, Tony Robbins. You think about all these individuals.

And they don't have the same experience. They don't have the same insight into what it is to be a woman as well. That is struggling with an external narrative from society that people like me as a man would never really understand. But your work appeals to both. And that's special. So thank you. Thank you for giving me your time. Thank you so much for having me on. It was an absolute joy and an honor.