E177: Chris Kamara: The Untold Heartbreaking Story Of A Football Legend

Every day I wake up the first thing I think I might gonna be able to talk today. There's been a red card but for who, Chris Tamara? I don't know, Jeff, has it? I don't know, Richard's best love for all puppets. It's been a cracker, Jeff. Yeah, I'm you, Jeff! I believe it, Jeff, what a cocky game!

I'll play for Middlesbrough and for Leeds, ambition and dream achieve. The story of your mother, I found really difficult to read. It was difficult in those days. Men were physical towards women. I made the mistake of telling my dad on his deathbed that it was wrong. I should have kept it to myself.

Why? For someone that has never experienced apraxia, what does it feel like for you in your head? I feel a fraud now in terms of broadcasting. You feel a fraud? Yeah. I was going to quit everything.

Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Chris, what do I need to know about your earliest years to understand the man that you are today?

Well, I don't know really. My childhood is slightly clouded. So I wouldn't change anything because you can't change the course of history. But life was difficult growing up, very difficult. So yeah, I wouldn't change anything to be honest. When you say clouded,

Well, good days, bad days. We had terrible racism at the time when I was growing up. I was born in 57. So in the 60s, it wasn't good. We were the only black family on our estate.

So anything happened and the police would come knocking on our door, take our data away and you'd have to get cleared and come home and the old process would start again. It's that black family there.

and were causing all the problems. And occasionally, not all the time, my dad would like to bet. So he would, on a Thursday, when he got paid, they got paid in cash, and then brown airmallows would occasionally go to the bookies. And so we'd end up, you know, struggling for food. So it's clouded in those ways.

I'm looking through those clouds now, but thinking it didn't do me any harm, but it happened. Your mother and your father's relationship.

Mum was the most loyal wife you could ever have. Absolutely. Even if her and Dad had arguments or fights or whatever, she would venomously stick up for him, you know, when anybody called him. You know, the end word was vibrant back in those days.

And, you know, I hear these stories now that it's impossible to understand racism if you're not black. It's not true. It's totally not true. My mum got called an enlover.

So, you know, the 60s when I was aware of it. And she came through it. So she knew exactly what race it was about. Your father was from Sierra Leone. Yeah. And your mother was from Middlesbrough. Yeah. People don't always think about that. They don't think about how the

in that context, because my mother's from Nigeria, and my dad's from Coventry. And what my dad went through as well, because his wife was black, is often not spoken about, but often the partner

carries the weight and the insults all the same. I was reading through your story about how your mother would also, on Thursday, she would walk up to 10 miles to go and get your dad's pay packet through fear that he might spend it.

Yeah, she had to, so it became a ritual in the end. She would do it all the time. In the end, when we were older as kids, she didn't have to carry us to the workplace, which was 10 miles away, a round journey.

So they ended up, she would walk to meet Dad and they would go off into town together, you know, and that became the norm. Did your dad ever show the impact or the consequences of the way he was being treated like an outsider in a country where people were telling him he didn't belong?

to us as kids. Did you ever see the impact of him emotionally? Did it manifest itself in drinking? Was there ever a sign that it was impacting him? He told us often enough. He'd been involved in fights back then. Fist fights, you know, that was the norm.

You had to stand up and be counted, but he was always the one arrested in those fighting situations.

He had this thing and he drove it into me and my brother don't ever react. I might be reacting, but whatever you do, don't react. Take it on the chin and ride through it. You'll get through it that way. It's been harder for me and I'm doing this for you, so you'll benefit.

And the other thing that I read that I found really difficult to read was the story of your mother when your dad's gambling.

problems were very difficult. Your mother would, and you didn't have money, your mother would go around to other houses in the street and knock on the doors and ask for bread or anything on money. That's how it had to be. If you've got Tuesday and Wednesday to come on a Monday and you haven't got food and

milk until dad gets paid on Thursday. She'd go and borrow money or milk or bread from the neighbours. She had to, she got turned away more often than not, but she persevered. She had to look after her kids. How did you feel amongst that time? See, what age are you at this point, five, six, seven, eight?

Well, yeah, it wasn't all the time, you know, it was occasional. So, yeah, I would say from eight-year-old, I became aware of it more.

I know it's eight because I had to light a coal fire at eight years of age. Can you imagine, you know, I can imagine asking my boys to get wood and paper and matches and then light the paper and then once the wood gets going, put the coal on top. At eight years of age, yeah. Yeah. Spooky, you know.

You were asked to do that to heat that home? Yeah. We didn't have central heating. You had a fire, coal fire. That was all. You had the oven in the back of the house, in the kitchen. So you'd put a gas on to heat the kitchen when it was really cold. But the main source of heat and the hot water was the fire. Was there a lot of love in your home?

I would say intermittently. When I look back now, I would change anything, even though there are aspects that I'd like to change. I wanted to do things. The thing I don't want to do is

is destroying the person whom my dad is for my grandkids. But it was difficult in those days. Men were physical towards women. So, yeah, yeah, difficult. I sat here not so long ago with Alex Scott.

the football presenter broadcast. Yeah, I work with Alex at Sky.

Her book comes out in 10 days time. And in the book, I was reading about how she's never spoken about it before publicly, but she would come home and watch her father beating her up her mother constantly. And the mark that left on her as a young child having to witness that kind of violence in the home. And it's not really talked about enough. And it's funny, the reason why I bring that up is because she's also grappling with the same fear of

tarnishing her father's life. Yeah. Yeah. But it was done. I presume my dad grew up with it. And so he thought it was okay for him to do it. But like I say, you know, my kids will probably listen to this and

You know, I don't want to say too much on it. Is there a mixture of emotions around it? Because that's what I observed in Alex as well, was there's this like, you look at someone in your life, whether it's a parent or someone you love, and you say, that behavior was wrong. But at the same time, I love you. It was still my father. And it's, you know, that balancing act of like, should I hate this person? Should you notice it? Yeah.

I made the mistake of telling my dad on his deathbed that it was wrong. And he saw it, wouldn't accept that he'd done what he'd done. So, you know. Why does that make you emotional? Oh well.

I should have kept it to myself. Why? Why? Until he's nearly dead to say something. I'm a grown man in this time. Your mother? Yes. That's a smile on your face? Yeah, of course.

What role has she played in making you the manual today? She was everything you could want in a mum. She would do anything for me. She did. My dad never saw my school report from the age of five until I left school at 16.

She protected me that way. But no, only that, you know, mom's a great and she looked after the family as good as she possibly could. And, you know, she was my world.

And at that age, what was your dreams? If I'd ask you the question, what do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah, football. Yeah. No danger. Playing for Middlesbrough initially. And then when I saw Leeds on back to the day, around there, mates house, borough all Leeds, ambition to play for borough, dream to play for Leeds. So footballer, nothing else, tunnel vision, yeah.

Why football? What was it doing for you? Oh, everything. Yeah. I used to play on the field near our house with, again, screw on men from the age of 12. And I wasn't bad, you know? And they would try to kick lumps out of this little kid who was embarrassing him. So, yeah, it's the main good stead, you know?

when I played against men at 16, I couldn't look after myself. Eventually you end up going and doing a couple of months in the army. How did that happen? The Navy, actually. No, Dave Richardson was

coach, middle of boys, came around my house and said to my dad, there's a chance, not guaranteed that Chris will be taken on as an apprentice in middle of the row and he went, no, no, he's not going. If he stays in middle of the row,

He'll be in trouble with the police, he'll end up rinking and stuff like that. He's not staying in the middle, he's going in the Navy. He made my brother join the Army.

And he made me join the Navy, literally frog march me down to the recruitment office and sign on the dotted line. Could you imagine, you know, while I can imagine doing that to my kids, you know? And in a way, I think that worked against me with my kids because

I never pressurised my kids to do anything at all. Let them do whatever they wanted, whereas I probably could have been a little bit more in terms of football. But whatever they wanted to do was my wish and I think that came from my done.

When he marched you down there and you had a love for football at that time, he marched you down there and he wanted you to join the Navy. How did you feel? Not good, I have to say. Not good.

It was one of those things. I left Middlesbrough boys were in a semi-final the week before I was going in the Navy. So I knew I had this final coming up when I signed a semi-final coming up when I signed

for the Navy, so I was thinking hopefully the semi-final and final of the middle of boys will be over, but I played the semi-final and then I

didn't get in touch with Dave Richards to tell him I wouldn't be there for the final because I was off to a tall point in Devon. Well, Colmour is across the water from Plymouth. From Plymouth? Yeah, Plymouth, yeah. So you know it's Colmour and not Devon, but it's a stone throw and that's where I got my lucky break.

Yeah, you're lucky break. Yeah, the Navy football team were training there. So I went down one day and I asked the coach if I could

train with him and the team and he went, no, three reasons. One, you're on trial. So what it did, you were on a trial situation, whereas you got to six weeks, whether you liked the Navy or they liked you, and if not, you could leave. So he said, come back in six weeks.

if you want and the other thing he said number two he said is your black and these long kick lumps out of you so to speak so and the third thing is you're too skinny you know gonna be strong enough to play in the Navy football team so I said okay anyway got to six weeks

was fine was okay and then there's a six months period then where you can decide if you want to say in the Navy or not. So I went

back to see him and he kept saying no no no and then one day I was running around the track while the Navy football team and he said look we're two players short I'll play on one side you play on the other just stay out on the wing and you'll be fine

Okay, anyway, I scored two goals from the wing and got drafted straight into the team, straight away and the rest is history. We played Portsmouth reserved and

Navy side. I scored another two goals against them. They asked how old I was and they bought me out for the magnificent sum of 200 pounds. And my dad, I formed my dad and I told him what was happening.

And he wasn't happy. So I spoke to the Navy and said, would you do me a favor? Would you give me a letter saying, if it don't work out as a footballer, I can go back in the Navy. And they said, yeah, fine. So I got that letter, sent it to Dad. And it sort of like made him a bit more sell.

And then it happens, your career at Portsmouth. A lot of people will never appreciate, especially in the modern era. Even me, as a guy that has a black mother and a white father, what racism was like back in the 50s and 60s. The first time I experienced racism was maybe 1990.

No, it would have been later, it would have been about 2000 roughly, when I was maybe eight or nine or ten. But when I was reading through what you experienced in that time, almost constantly, it almost makes my experience feel like it was nothing. And I mean that, I remember once or twice or three times.

you know, over the course of my whole childhood, people being overtly racist. But when was the first time someone was racist to you? Ah, I know exactly. When it was, I'll never forget it. I was eight years old. Once again, that was the time where I could light the fire and go to the shops to get cigarettes. So you went with a note for the shopkeeper.

So it was 10 wood vines for my mum and 20 caps and full strength for my dad. So I went to the shop, gave the note to the shopkeeper and he's getting in. This woman came in the shop.

Anyway, she asked for a pint of milk or loaf of bread. I'm not sure of those details. And he said, Ryan, I'm serving this young man here. She said, Islot should go back to where they came from.

And I thought, I left five doors away from you, you know. I'm not, you know, from somewhere else. And he said, no, he stood his ground, the shopkeeper, and served me. And I went out with ringing in our head, and then blacks and souls. It shouldn't be, yeah. It says that all that you can remember that day was such detail.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's something I didn't think people realize is the first time someone called me in the N word at school. I remember everything about that day. I can't remember many other days, but for some reason that was a, it's a very traumatic experience. And the first sort of signs that you're different and welcome. And that would go on to continue throughout your

childhood, your football career. I read about the story when you were playing against Millwall, I believe it was. And someone had thrown a banana on the pitch at you.

No wall was horrific, but not just for me as a black person. It was for any footballer that went there, you know, basically, but even harder for me. I can always remember once again, if you ask me about my career and there's, you know, lots, I forget. But the first time I took a throw in there, the ball went out.

and they kept the wall initially. It wouldn't give me it. And then eventually it got through onto the pitch and the fans are virtually there and you're taking a throwing from there. So I'm sort of like taking this throwing and all of a sudden spit is on the back of my head, the back of my head.

I never took a throwing ever there again. That's what I was thinking. That lesson was truly learnt. And the other story which I found it just sounded like something from a thousand years ago was when you went to the pub after a game with your team and the pub owner made a comment, a racist comment to you.

Yeah, that was in Wetherby. I played for Portsmouth at Sunderland in 1976, I think.

Sumlin needed to win to get promotion to the what is the Premier League now, the old first division. We needed a win to stay up in the old second division. What is the championship now? Anyway, Sumlin won that day.

I always remember that game for two reasons, not just the weather beat incident. I drank champagne for the first time. Sonalyn sent a case of champagne into the dressing room because they've got promoted that day.

So we get on the coach, virtually every team that played some of the known Newcastle would stop at whether it be for fish and chip. So we stop. So we all pile in the pub. Most of the players and the barman says, we don't serve is kind in here.

And the last world gone and I went, no, no, no, it's fine. To be honest, I was underage anyway. I was 17. But that didn't matter back then. I'd been going in the Pops since I was 14, you know. So I went, no, no, it's fine. Anyway, Mickey Mouse, one of my teammates said, I'll bring you a tight out. But that was the first time that my teammates

realize, you know, do you get that often and stuff like that? And I said, yeah, occasionally, but part of life, you know, you get on with it. It's one thing to shrug it off. And I feel like in that situation,

There's a time and place to address some of these things or to confront them. Your father had taught you to not react, as you say. But as you look back on that period of your life, how did that racial abuse shape and change you as a man?

It made you wary of other people. Obviously, you know, not happy, but I wouldn't say, oh God, it's traumatized me or something like that. And then the black lives come out and people start telling their stories of racism and the way they've been treated. And you think, oh, why can't I tell my story now? And I have them.

Has that helped you telling a story do you think? To be honest, I wouldn't say it's helped me or not helped me. I think since I've had this, well, I've got two conditions, an undirected thyroid and a praxia.

the underactive the thyroid plays with your emotions so I get a lot more emotional now whereas stuff I wouldn't even bat an eyelid in the past because of this little butterfly thyroid in my neck it now makes me more emotional

When did you discover the underactive thyroid? Well, it's funny, you know, it's really funny. I did going through lockdown initially, the first lockdown in March, when the weather was great, everyone, you know, quite.

You know, I think they were gutted about the lockdown, but the fact you were at home and the sun was shining, things were slightly different. I did loads and loads of shows from home, you know, celeb juice and Steph's back lunch, ITV, Lorraine and stuff like that, Sky Sports, from the, you know, barn at home, you know, so that was fine.

So all of a sudden I began to not feel well too well, but I always shrugged it off. I'd take tablets and be fine the next day and all that sort of stuff. But it wasn't going away.

And I thought, what's going on? But I ignored it, ignored it, which is the worst thing you can possibly do. So I would get away with it, or home by Adley.

not being the person I was, not talking as much. When I'm broadcasting for Sky, I'm trying to keep minimalistic because some of the words are coming out slurred and stuff like that. So, eventually, I've got to go and see someone because I literally went

A whole year, if not 20 months before, I actually got diagnosed with undirected thyroid cell.

It was all my prayers answered at once, you know, you've got an undirected thyroid, take level of thyroxine. Once you find your level of level of thyroxine, you'll be fine. Great. Doctors, great sorting out. So eventually you take 25 grams or whatever it is, of level of thyroxine.

Eventually when you find your level, you're fine. So I get to 175 and my thyroid is stabilized.

But my voice condition is still exactly the same. So what's going on? So my doctor then says, go for a brain scan. So I go for MRI scan. Anyway, go and see a brain specialist. He looks at the x-rays, the MRI scan. Fine, no problem. Nothing wrong with your brain. It's got to be something else that's going on.

So, go back to my GP and tell him what's going on. He's got the report from the brain scan. So he said, he won't give up my GP. He says, it's not obviously thyroid. There's something else going on. Would you go and see this Dr. Lilly in Leeds? He's a specialist.

So I go and see Dr. Lily in late. And before Aboni said hello to him, and before I can even chat to him, he says, you've got a praxia of speech.

How do you know? I can tell straight away the difficulty between the brain and your mouth being able to speak. It was probably slower than it is now at that time. So he said a lot.

I want you to go and have a dad scam, which rules out Parkinson's or stroke and all that sort of stuff. I did, went back to see him with the results for the results, I should say. And he went, the good news is you haven't got Parkinson's or anything like that. The bad news is

you know, we can't find anything else wrong with you. So, you know, the apraxia, you know, will probably get worse. And, you know, that went on for quite a while. I went to see a therapist and he kept saying to me, you know, you need to tell people.

You know, you can continue on TV and people are saying, is he drunk and what's the matter with him as he had a stroke? You need to come out and say something. I said, I can't. I'd rather quit than actually say something.

Anyway, eventually, I spoke to my mate, Ben Shepherd, told him what was going on, so he said, come on, GMB, I'll chat about it and let the world know what's going on. How are things for your family during this period?

My boys had been saying to my wife that something wrong went down for a while and she saw like

would broach it with me but I'd be quite snappy and you know which I'm not anyway you know and say no I'm fine I'm fine don't worry about it I'm fine and I kept thinking like I said one side got the thyroid problem the level of thyroid will take it away and then it's still with me and

Yeah, it's harder for people closer, I think, you know, because my two boys are saying, you're kind of, yeah, I'm fine, I'm just out of bad day, you know, don't worry, I'll be fine. But they know, you know, you can't pull me all over their eyes for too long.

For someone that has never experienced what it's like to have a praxia, what does it feel like for you in your head? It feels like...

Someone is taking over my voice books. So, the voice that used to come out, it would come out at 300 mile an hour, you know, you've seen me on the results and soccer Saturday, you know, mouth or mouth, talking, not even waiting for a breath, just keep going and going.

now when i hear myself or see myself on tv it's someone else it's strange it's really strange some days you know their message from the brain to the mouth is really slow yeah makes it difficult or some days the words come out different that what you're trying to say not even we're there

And so that's been hard to accept and still hard to accept. I have to say, you know, I was going to quit everything, you know, literally every single better TV at the end of last season. Leave Sky, quit BBC, quit ITV, quit Channel 4 and 5, and all those companies

I think it was the right time to leave Sky. I don't know, great. BBC, ITV, Channel 5, said, no, no, you're coming. It doesn't matter. I said, well, it's the quality of the programme. No, it doesn't matter. You're fine. We want you to do this. And would you believe I'm now

doubly busy than what I was before. That period of uncertainty, you get the diagnosis. The specialist says to you, it's only going to get worse. Your career is at that point in speaking. It's in presenting, broadcasting. Yeah. What was that period of uncertainty like on your mental health?

It was an acceptance, really, because what I said to my wife is, if I wasn't a broadcaster, it wouldn't matter, would it? And so she said, yeah. So I said, you know, now's the time. But a great time. I spoke to my agent, Simon Den, said, I'm getting out of all this.

And he said, yeah, you can. Yeah, don't worry. I'll leave it up to you. And yeah, I thought, that's it. I've done my time. And I like to thank all the people that are being persistent and said, look, a 25% cameo is, you know, still better than some people, you know.

and Sky saw you on that show forever, presenting and bringing insights and wisdom and laughs and all of that to the show.

I also watched the tribute that Jeff did when you left. What was that like having to speak to Jeff and the rest of the lads and tell them how you were departing and for the reason? Well, Jeff's a really close pal. And he knew that in the summit going on for a while, he kept saying to me, are you all right? And I said, yeah, I'll find you. Don't worry, I'm fine. He said, well, you know,

Yeah, what's going on? So I said to honest, just had a couple of bad days and stuff, but I'll be fine on Saturday. Then he'd send me a text saying, you know, fine again. I said, I'll be all right next week or whatever.

He can't pull the wool over people's eyes who know you real well. And he was great. The tribute that Skye gave me, which, like I said, was the right time to leave there. I cried when he cried on the show. I've never seen him cry before.

It's a really beautiful, powerful moment. Since then, in your own words, you've really thrown the kitchen sink. I think it's the quote at the apraxia. And can you talk to me about what you've done since to mitigate the impact of the condition on you and your life and your career?

Yeah, the day I went on GMB and spoke to Ben Shepherd and Kate, I got a phone call immediately from a fellow that I knew

Aish, a fellow called Winford Dawes, and he said, I can kill you. I know there's people out there that will help to get you right. So he said, I want you to come and meet Professor Nicholson down at Sheffield University.

So I said, OK, so I met Winford and the professor anyway between them. They were saying, you need to kickstart your cerebellum, which is in the back of the brain.

what's happened is it's shut down so we need to get the jump leads out started again and get your brain going get your speech going and there are various ways to do that so

So I said, yeah, what are those? I'll do absolutely anything here to try and get it right. So he got zing performance, which is really exercises for stroke victims, but it's helped my balance. Our performance, which is micro occurrence, going through my body, I still, I offer.

a tag on my ankle now with those micro currents going through all the time yeah all the time yeah for seven hours every day and it's helped yeah it's helped you know I'm

I wouldn't say more than 60% the old me, but I was 20%. So I've gone up 40% for a hyperbaric tent with the oxygen he recommended. I do that and I see a therapist who helps with the speech and help my anxiety working for Sky.

became very difficult. Before I even came out and said, I've got it, my heart would be like mad before they came to me at Skye.

The anxiety was terrible because I was knowing I wasn't the old me. So I went to see him and he said, look, I can cure that. The other problem, the apraxia, is a biological condition. So I can't help with that. But we'll try and see if we can get you through these things. So getting really anxiety helped me.

finish work or the work I had stacked up, UK strongest man, the games, right TV, all those shows cashing the attic I present. So they helped me do that. And all those treatments, you know, I'm taking so many vitamins these days and they're

I've just been introduced by Winford to the best neurologist in America. He said, because I have good days, there's no reason why I can't be cured. So I've sent off a load of blood tests and everything to America, and I'm just waiting on the results.

How is life for you now? You've been through a journey. Yeah. Strange. Where are you in that journey now? Strange. Strange in terms of... I feel a fraud now in terms of broadcasting. I don't bring to the table what I used to. So that's hard.

My life away from the screen could be any better, you know, grandkids, you know, family. You know, it's perfect. You think, yeah. You feel the fraud? Yeah. Because you... I feel I'm doing these programs and...

And they're not getting the best of me, but they're tolerating me, you know? That's how it feels.

I mean, who am I to say? But I think what they told you about, as you said, 25% of you is better than pretty much everyone else. You brought so much joy to my life growing up. Made me love the game or made me understand the game more. You've made it hilarious. I mean, you know that. You're loved more than anyone I've ever seen on the screen. And you've earned that. That's a skill. It's something I couldn't do. I wouldn't know how to do a slither of what you do.

I don't think that I suspect that fear is not as logical as you think it is. You're a fraud. I mean that as well. Like I could never do what you do. I can do of 10% of what you do. So, you know,

It's like anything else. You take it for granted, you're all self. You do things, you know, that tribute that Sky gave me, that's reserved for someone who passes away, isn't it? You know, so I've had the tribute while I'm still alive, that people don't get, when they go, you always look back and think,

You read the obituaries and the comments and things. Why didn't people say that? You know, so I think maybe I should have bowed out then, you know, taking the accolades and said, thank you. You know, am I tarnishing? Well, I've got what I had.

But I think my rebuttal to that, if I may, is that you're serving the world in a very important way now still. Even by having this conversation and being vulnerable and open, you are serving hundreds of thousands of people, thousands and thousands of people in a completely and entirely different way.

that are suffering with various conditions, whether it's, you know, as you've said, post stroke victims or whether it's apraxia or other things, and they're struggling with the same self doubt. It's funny, like our missions just change over our lives, right? Like, so your first missions was in football and then you became a manager, then you did broadcasting. And now this chapter of your life is just a different chapter. You're still, you know, a wondrous broadcaster, but you're serving people in a completely other way, probably maybe arguably even in a more important way. So what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I did the ITV games and a YouTuber was called Young Philly. I'd never met him before. He's on the first show and he sees me before we go broadcasting and he comes and he starts doing that. He went, you're a god.

Do you know what icon you are for black people? I went, no, don't be dumb anyway. You're a trailblazer.

You know, you did TV before diversity. You know, how did you get into TV when you, you know, on Sky Sports and there was no black people around and all that sort of Europe. And I come and I went, no, I don't see myself as anyone. Well, you'd be my inspiration. So makes it feel good for a second. That's worth it, right? Yeah.

And that alone, that thought that you're inspiring people just by having this conversation and by sharing your story and being honest and not running into the shadows as you could have very easily done is going to help that. And you probably never get to meet them like you got to meet young Philly. But that's got to be worth it, right? Yeah.

It was... I didn't believe him, but... He's got no reason to lie though, isn't you know what I mean? This next chapter, what do you want it to be full of? My life has changed in terms of grandkids.

You know, material things don't matter anymore. The love you are for. You know, your kids is something else. So, you know, I'm one of those now, even though I'm still working my main priority is spending time with them. What advice would you give me?

And I just turned 30 last week. What advice would you give me? I say it to everyone. Work hard and you'll succeed. Don't ever turn down work. Don't ever say on a job or this is hard. I don't like it anymore. I can't do this. Do it.

do it and do it to the best of your ability and see where it takes you. You know, TV is one of those jobs. I think where if you work hard enough, you'll succeed. In football, that's not the case. You know, I've grown up in football and you sometimes a lucky break is better than working hard. Even you've still got to work out.

but you need breaks and of course you need breaks in TV but if you work out I think you get them. I started off at Sky and so people say how did you get into Sky in 1998?

Well, initially, I was a pundit for him. I was lucky, fortunate. The first broadcast of the Football League was Sunderland versus Sheffield United at Sheffield, and they rang me. I was manager of the month with Bradford.

In August, we won four games and drew one. And they called me and said, would you come and be the pundit?

So I said, yeah, Sheffield down the road from me. And they said, no, you've got to come into Skye in West London. So I came all the way down. Marcus Bookland, the presenter, who is his first day. And it was a double header. Six hours of TV, obviously, adds in between and all that sort of stuff, half time.

And Jerry Francis was doing the second game. So that's where Fate took a hand. I did the first game, Sunderland, one at Sheffield. And Jerry Francis got stuck on the M4. So I did the double adder.

From doing six hours of TV, I became the go-to guy then for Sky. So a live game, are you available? Yeah, I'll come down and do it. And I did that. And then when I got the sack from Bradford, they asked,

when I like a contract. And I said, no, but I like to keep my face in the shop window. So I did one broadcast and then Stoke came along and I got that job.

And then that job turned sour pretty quickly after three months. And then I just fell straight into the sky, the broadcasting. And so eventually,

the 1999, the producer of Soccer Saturday said, would you like to come and join the team? So I said, yeah, so you went, would you like to do some features for us?

So I would actually go and train with teams, Premier League team. You cannot imagine in a million years that they let you and train with the players these days. But I did that back in the day, 1999. So I'd go and train, joining the training with them, interview the manager, the players, shoot the

And then I went and edited those pieces because I didn't want someone saying, oh, yeah, it's fine. But the hard work is done by the editor. So I would set myself in a studio.

Sometimes it took six, seven hours for a four minute piece to edit it down. But I thought, all right, I don't want anyone saying he's there by fraud, hard work. And if you do that, people see that. It'll help. Not in all cases, but in most cases.

That was the very start of what would go on to be a legendary career in the media. I, when you look, so you've given me one reason there as to why you're successful, which is just the hard work and saying yes. But the media business is also, it's much more complex in that, in the sense that hard work, as you say, is like a, you definitely need to do it. But what was it about you? Do you think that set you apart as a, as a, in the media industry, as a broadcaster?

I don't know that. I'm still baffled by that. I went to Ian Condrens, 40th anniversary with his wife. Ian was the producer of Sockersadie, who gave me the job. And I said, why? I'd seen you on doing other programs, punditry, and thought you'd be great for our show.

He said, you know, took a chance with you and it works. But 20 years. You must have a suspicion. No, I was allowed to be just me. So I didn't have to work at it like I had to work at editing those pieces together. You know, they're training, playing,

Interviewing the managers all came natural. It was that hard work that I wanted to prove that I could do. But no, I was fortunate. It was just me.

When did you meet Anne? We met when I was at Swindon. I got transferred from Portsmouth to Swindon, my first ever transfer.

in 1978 and we actually played Portsmouth my first game Force Winden was home to Portsmouth and

Yeah, I had to have a police escort to the game. The club had been informed by the intelligence that the National Front, because Portsmouth had 200 National Front supports.

National Front is this racist organisation from the other decades ago. So they got wind that they were going to do me in. So when I played for Pompey, there was a small section of fans that booed you onto the pitch because of your colour booed you off.

But, like I said, back in those days, I didn't care, not one job. And I didn't care when they said about this, you're going to be done in. I said, oh, it's just a threat. Don't worry about it. But the police intelligence said, no, we need to pick you up.

and take you to the game and drop you back home. So I did and... I scored. Went to the year after 10 minutes and not like today where people don't celebrate. Of course, stupid me. You know, dad, this death threat goes straight because I scored in the end where they promptly found...

and gave it all out. So yeah, no. So the police at Scott wanted to take me back to my dicks, but I said, no, leave it, no, it's fine. And one of my teammates, Kenny Stroud, his wife, Linda, was with this girl called down, and I asked her out.

You know, 40 years later or 43 years later, we're still together. What a journey it's been with Anne. Long journey, yeah. What does she mean to you? Everything, you know. It takes

wives for granted all I did you know I can't speak for everyone else but Tony when you have a problem like this because you know

I just live for today. I'm fine. No problems. Don't worry about me. It's when you have a problem, they have to look at your closest morning, see what they do for you and how they react to what you're going through, which

You know it's difficult and then you feel Sad about you know not sharing things before and keeping things away from

How did you react to all of this? She said she thought for a while. She didn't say anything. She said she thought for a while that there was something not quite right, but she couldn't put a finger on it. And she'd be my rock now.

I don't hardly, you know, this is the longest I've spoken to anybody for a long time, you know, and you'll probably see when you edit this tape, sometimes it's slow, sometimes it's coming out okay, now it's coming out okay and it feels fine, you know, and that's all to do with the mind. Maybe I'm talking about a good thing now with it, and so it's fine and it's free.

So, yeah, she's, you know, she's taking the weight, a heavy weight of my shoulders and, you know, allowed me to do what I do.

to continue doing what I'm doing if I want to do it. But she does say from time to time, you're allowed to say no to these jobs that Simon rings up and asks me to do. But I don't like to let anyone down. You know, I think it's worth saying that I think this has been a really, really great conversation. And

I'm actually quite surprised to hear that of how much you struggled previously based on the conversation we've had today, because I don't know if I'm speaking out of turn here, but had I not known about the condition, this would have been a perfectly normal conversation on this podcast. So it's really, really interesting and enlightening to

to learn more about it. And I, yeah, I can't imagine, as from a family's perspective as well, going through that journey with their father, where you're trying to find answers, you find answers, and then there's that whole sort of therapy process to get you back to where you are. And the mental health journey that takes us on, which we've not really talked about in detail, but there's the curing, the condition, but then there's like living with the cost of the shift, the tectonic shift in your life.

It consumes your mind or it has the mind. So every day I wake up, the first thing I think, am I going to be able to talk today? So immediately I wake up, I'll go in the bathroom and I'll look in the mirror and say a few words and it's fine or I think it's fine.

the perception is fine in my head and then I'll go downstairs and talk to Anne and all of a sudden that pathway is restricted and not, oh god, not again today, you know, and that's been hard to get my head around and my therapist, Daniel,

He says, you exaggerate in your mind, you know, that's the problem because you've never had to think about your speech. Now you're thinking and you're overthinking. So even though, like you said, it seems fine to you in my head. I know that it's slower than it would have been. Had we spoken three years ago?

and that the cognition part, the thoughts, they're still the same. They're lightning quick, they're fine. So they're there in terms of speech, but

I have days where if you're out and about, or even indoors, there's nothing in the brain area. So, you know, whereas I could normally go into a room.

did it all the time, speak to everyone, have a laugh. That was the first thing on my mind. Now, that part of it is hard work and it feels hard work and it feels a struggle and it doesn't feel natural. That's the worst thing. So I tend not to do it very often, you know, unless I'm feeling good, you know,

spoken to someone else and I can tell it's fluid, the voice, then I'll go in a room and be myself again. Chris, we have a closing tradition on this podcast. Yes. Where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. They don't know who they're writing it for. And they'll never find out.

Um, although I have said their name earlier on, so you won't be able to figure it out. Right. But, um, the question they've written for you is, I'm going to read it for that. What has been the most happiest moment of your life? Full stop brought to you the most joy and why.

Is that kids aside? Let's say kids aside because that's, yeah. Yeah, kids aside, achieving my ambition and my dream. Yeah. I can, you know, as a young black kid, playing on the fields around where I live,

I think in that one day, I'll play an airsome park for Middlesbrough and Ellen Road for Leeds. It's blow my mind away, you know. Ambition and dream achieved.

Chris, thank you. I have no doubt that your ambitions and dreams are just getting started because you have all of the core, the minerals that are required to achieve pretty much anything. And you've shown that your life has been a testament to that, even in the face of great adversity. Thank you. I thank you not just for myself and for you giving me your time today, but

I don't think you realize how many people you're going to help in a really important, profound way. How much pain you're going to alleviate from them, how you're going to make them feel seen and understood just by doing this today and just by not hiding in the shadows. Thank you. So thank you. And thank you for all the joy you brought me. You've made football fun. You've made it, made me understand the game better over the course of pretty much my entire life.

So I'm full-on, I'm so glad that I still get to see you on the screens and I hope to see you a lot more. I know you've got a show in Ninja Warrior, UK, Race for Glory, which is airing on ITV, which I'm very excited about watching as well.

Yeah, I'm so glad I did it. You know, I tried to pull out when they rang me and said, we've been commissioned for series seven. I went, oh no. And they went, what do you mean, oh no? They went, oh no, you don't get any old coming. They said, oh, don't worry about it.

I've watched a bit of the first episode, and even though it don't sound like me, it's possible. I hope people enjoy it. Well, as you said, 25% of you is better than pretty much most. Anyone else will take that. Thank you so much, Chris. Thanks, Anna.