Crushing Your Debt This Year ft. Dasha Kennedy & Natalia Brown

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Hey, hey BA fam! We have some company in the studio today. This has been a long time coming and I can't think of a better way to kick off the year, especially when. Brown Ambition fam, y'all have been so generous and kind to let me peek into the window of your financial stressors. Like what is keeping you up at night? What is getting y'all stressed?

when it comes to your finances. Is it housing? Is it groceries? Is it jobs? Is it transportation? And I have to say, I'm going to share some of those survey results with y'all, but because of the results, I just knew I had to do an episode all around the dirty D word debt.

Debt debt debt debt y'all. One of the most viral clips from Brown ambition of 2024 was when I, Mandy Woodruff Santos, raised my hand and I said, yeah, I'm in a bad financial place too. I'm in a tough financial spot like housing is so incredibly expensive.

Taking care of these babies is so incredibly expensive. It's like, I don't have one mortgage. I have three because childcare, right? And be a fan. Overwhelmingly, y'all were so compassionate, but you also shared your stories. And that's why I decided, let me actually do a survey of our audience. It has been a long time.

and because of that survey like i said i just knew that i wasn't alone and brown ambition was literally created so that we could have a non-judgmental table to come to y'all can feel like you're sitting across from your sister friends and we can get through the tough times together so.

In 2025, to kick off the year, I had to invite some friends along for the journey as well. And I couldn't think of a more incredible pair than the two women who are in the studio today. So let's give a warm BA fan. Welcome to today's company.

We have dasia kennedy a.k.a. the broke black girl y'all may know her from these internet streets. dasia has been a guest on brown ambition before and today she is here. She's a trailblazing financial activist and educator who's committed to transforming the world of finance into a more equitable and accessible space for women.

And she is joined by her partner in crime for the day, Natalia Brown. If y'all haven't heard of Natalia, you must get to know my friend, my new friend now. She has been, what is it, nearly a decade now, working at the National Debt Relief. She is a chief compliance officer and consumer affairs officer at National Debt Relief.

Natalia and Dacia are here today because Dacia partners with National Debt Relief and I want to talk to you all about the word that is keeping me and our BA fam all up at night. So we're going to talk through hopefully a little bit about how the heck a company like National Debt Relief even works because I think I told Natalia when we first met, I have some questions.

Debt relief agencies get a bad rap. There's a lot of confusion about what they do, what they don't do. So I want to get to the nitty gritty of like, how can y'all help consumers? And then Dacia, you're always giving incredible finance tips to your audience and real world talk. I know because you're raising two boys. We all have two boys each. Did we decide that? That's a crazy coincidence. And I know that you've got some real

incredible tips for our audience as well on how they can start tackling their debt. So without further ado, welcome, ladies. Thank you for having us. And just for the game. Say hi, VA, ma'am. So can each of y'all just say a few words so that people can get used to your voice? Because don't you know, when like you're on a podcast and you hear three different people, you're like, who'd it? Who'd it? It's a day show you go first.

Well, I'm Deja Kennedy, creator of The Rockwell Girl. I'm super excited to be here today just to talk about that too. But like you said, I think that within itself gets a bad reputation. And we'll really talk about it. We find out that it's not this boogeyman that it's been made out to be.

I don't believe you, I think it absolutely is a boogie man. And it's on my back, Dacia, okay? So Dacia got that real southern, where are you from again? From the Midwest, from St. Louis Missouri, born and raised. Oh, St. Louis, I was like, it's country, but it's not. It's that, it's that Nelly country. Okay, gotcha. But now you're in Atlanta or where? Yes. You're in the A, okay. All right, get a little southern flavor. All right, Natalia, all right, your turn.

My turn. So I'm Natalia. I just go by Nat most of the time. And I love that you said that, Mandy. That doesn't have to be a boogeyman. But I know it feels that way. But all you need is a plan and it always feels better once you have a play and you know what direction you're going in.

And there is a lot of stigma. There's a lot of stigma around itself, around that relief companies, what we do, what we don't do. And the reality is that there are laws that are in place to protect consumers. That is my job, is to protect our consumers. And I'm always putting people first. So I think we can talk about that at length and I hope you feel better at the end of it.

Oh, that's kind. I hope that y'all feel better too. But at the very least, feel better because you are not alone. So according to our survey, and I'm happy to hear that if you guys have done any data, but we get it. People are in debt. The economy right now for me is like, yeah, businesses are making money, but they're making money because things are so much more expensive.

And us underneath that, you know, like every day working class Americans, we are getting squished. So be a fam over 50% of y'all said you were somewhat worried about your finances. 20% said you're very worried. And there's another 20% that are extremely worried.

So that means literally everybody who listens to the show is a little bit at least somewhat worried about their finances. And so many of you guys are very worried. And number one, on the list of biggest sources of financial stress, can you believe it's paying down debt? 58% of our listeners more than half say that paying down debt is the biggest source of financial stress.

Now stress, I love that book, The Body Keeps the Score, and I just know that that stress is not just about something that's weighing on you, that gives you a little bit of heartburn during the day, but it can literally make you physically ill to think about this debt. And in my case, over the years, it can make me feel like

frozen, don't know what to do, don't know where to turn. So, Nat, I'm curious, because I'm going to call you Nat, though, you said I could. I'm curious if you could talk about what it's like when people come to National Debt Relief, and what sort of mental state are they in at the time, and how do you guys start helping them?

There is a full range. There's fear, there's anger. I think stress manifests itself very differently for different people. So we're very much trained to kind of acknowledge that, right? Some people are embarrassed because they have the good job. They've had the good life and it's really hard to say like, yeah, make $100,000, but I'm also way over my head, right? Sometimes it's, you know, as your income increases,

your expenses increase or you have emergencies. So we have people like that and we also have people who may not make enough or they've had a divorce or their child has gotten sick. Medical reasons are a lot of reasons why a lot of people go into debt and have to rely on credit cards as well. So they come to us in very, very different

ways, but at the end of the day, everyone wants the same thing is to not have that stress of having to figure out where the money is going to come from to lower the cost of their interest and all of the debt that they have. So at the end of the day, the plan that we give people gives everyone hope. And I think that's what we try to offer as much as possible as hope in a plan.

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So what actually does National Debt Relief do? So I'm calling your number. And am I going to hear from Nat? Is it going to be like, hey, this is Nat. I feel you. What's going on? What is that process like? And what kinds of services do y'all offer?

Well, I hope so. Someone on the phone won't be me, but it will be someone on the phone that is welcoming human or not like a human, not a computer and not a AI voice. Cause that's a real thing these days. An actual human person will answer the phone. Um, it's asked some very simple questions and really understand what the debt landscape is. Like, what is the unsecured debt? Is it credit cards? Is it medical debt? Is it reprocess debt? Um, is it basically just unsecured?

We'll take a look at that profile, look at how much you're paying in minimum balances and then try to get that info. Are people, is it like you're filling out a form with all of your accounts and then you guys have like a portal? Yes. With your, the client's permission, we will put credit, verify everything. When the client can send us a statement of all of their debts. So they do have access to a portal. It will show them everything that they have. It will give them options around what

program payment makes sense for them because that can also be flexible depending on how long you want to be in a program. And the ultimate goal is to get that total debt reduced by settling one debt at a time, sometimes two at a time, with a manageable monthly payment. So that's the process. It's really customized towards each individual. So there's not a one size fits all plan for anyone. But debt settlement is the goal.

That settlement is a debt reduction. So let's say you have a $10,000 debt. Our goal is to try to save as much money on that debt by negotiating with that creditor. And sometimes it's a lump sum repayment. Sometimes it's over terms, but it's always going to be a reduction of that $10,000. So our goal is to at least get it down to 5,000 plus our fee.

So when you're someone like, how do you know when you have enough debt or the right kinds of debt to be a good candidate for debt settlement? And I can go ahead and describe what I think of debt settlement as. And then you tell me if I'm right or wrong, because I'm kind of playing the part of a regular person. Absolutely. I did manage a content team for like five years when we wrote about this stuff all the time, but whatever I forgot.

But debt settlement to me is like, especially if you're just a consumer and you're being pursued by, let's say it's a hospital or it's a credit card company for a past due debt. And you call them up and you're like, I know I owe you a thousand dollars. I can't pay it. I could pay you 400. And they're like, no, maybe 500. And then you'll pay a lump sum and they'll go about their day. Did I get that right?

almost. Sometimes that 500 can be broken up over 12 months. So I'll give you a 90% you pass. Oh, nice. Well, lump sum payment was what my, that's like the three words that keep coming to my mind is like, settle your debt, but it's a what you have to have the cash on hand for a lump sum. So it's good to know, potentially.

You don't get enough flexibility that we offer. So if it's available, sure, but it's usually in the best interest of our clients since there's multiple debts to break those settlement amounts over time so that we can get things moving on each credit a little bit faster. Have you ever used debt settlement yourself, Dasha, or had to settle debts?

No, well, I'll take that back. Yes, I did. So my experience with settling with that was me trying to figure it out on my own. And so I'm just going to tell you what my experience was. It was me coming home one day from work. I had groceries in hand and someone called my phone. And it was a debt collector and it was a very threatening call. And it was almost like if you don't pay this debt, we're going to report it to the police.

So I was extremely scared, immediately paid it, never heard anything else about it. Now, I was in my early 20s. This probably could have been a scam. It probably could have been real. But this was just where I landed simply because I didn't know. And I'm sure that's not how debt settlement works now that I know better. But back then, I ran into that a lot. So just putting myself in the shoes of someone that was just starting off

I'm sure a lot of people get calls like that. They get calls from debt collectors, probably are more aggressive than what we would like. And if we don't know what our options are, we fall victim to what we think is debt settlement. But as Ned explained, we now know that it is completely different and more than that. Yeah. So, Desha, when was that? Was that pre-consumer financial protection bureau post, you know, like after the recession?

This was, I am, I'm 36 now. So this had to be around in my early twenties. Okay. This had to be in my early twenties when this happened. And again, I was just so afraid that I just immediately paid it. And I was young, very new to learning anything about money. I knew that it was a debt that I owed, but I didn't know my options. I didn't know who to call. I didn't feel comfortable asking for help. You know, it's a whole stigma around.

asking for help. So when I got the call, I just wanted the problem to go away. So I just pay whatever they told me to pay. Until this day, I can't even tell you that actually came off my credit. If I actually saw anything from it, I just made the payment.

Hmm. So yeah, I mean, in that situation, it is super stressful. First of all, that sounds really, that sounds like harassment. It sounds illegal. And Natalia, what would you say to someone today if they were getting those types of calls and didn't know what to do? If you could like be a magician and like, you know, genie and a bottle poof show up in front of them, what would you tell them if they're on the phone with someone right now? Absolutely illegal, especially today. It may not have been when Disha was getting those phone calls, but

Um, the FDCPA is an act that passed that actually protects consumers against threatening phone calls from collectors specifically. You can't call during certain times. So they can't call you at midnight anymore. They can't show up at your house there. I actually heard some really threatening stories from some of our clients in the past as well.

So there are really good rules in place to make sure that harassment doesn't occur. And if it is, know that it's illegal and that there is an act to protect against it and I wouldn't pay anything. Like Dacia said, there's a lot of fraud and scams going on these days. I would verify that that debt is even yours and that it's a reputable company that's trying to collect from you in the first place.

Okay, so many things there. So two things. What are some signs? It's a fraud. And two, I want to talk about how do you actually go about that debt verification? Because I know the textbook way of doing that that the CFPB has on their website, but I'm just curious in reality, how does that work? Well, it's on our site as well. So one, you can always pull your credit record. At least once a year, it's always free.

I'm not going to vouch for any apps, but there are definitely lots of apps out there that will give you access to your credit information. So one, verify that it is your debt. And then two, I'd like to call people back. So if I get a phone call from someone, I'm like, okay, well, what's the number where I can call you back? I can't talk right now.

You don't have to be really obvious about it, but you also want to make sure that when you call back, it is actually that company. You can look up their website and usually you'll get some form of written documentation when there's a creditor. They always mail something. So if you don't have a physical document and the number doesn't quite make sense, we do like a Google lookup and it's like someone's Google or voice number.

That's not legitimate. People don't collect through Facebook Messenger either, right? It's usually a phone call or an actual letter. So be aware of people sending emails saying I'm collecting on this debt that's generally not accurate either.

Or a text message. Yeah, or a text message. Don't click any links. Even your text now. Okay. So now the debt verification, that doesn't have to be a formal process. It literally is just like, does this debt sound like it's yours? And you can just check that by going to, yeah, like using a credit report app, you know, going to annual report, annual credit report.com.

And downloading all three of your credit reports for free. Like you said, you can do once a year. You know, there's credit karma, there's Equifax, like all these different credit bureaus now and banks themselves. If you don't, if you don't have a credit report, you're just not trying hard enough because like they're just handing them out on the street corners basically.

Okay. All right. So how do I know I'm in the, how do I know it's time? Like I can't manage this and I should ask for help from an organization like national debt relief.

I love that question because debt relief is not for everyone. I actually like to dispel that where lots of people think that it is. It is for the consumer who is contemplating bankruptcy, but they're not quite there yet. So there's different types of debt relief where maybe if you can still qualify for a loan and your credit score is still where it needs to be, that might be an option for some people if your credit score is already in danger.

And you're not going to be able to qualify for a consolidation loan and credit counseling from a long-term perspective. You're still paying a full debt. You're still paying interest even though it's reduced may not be an option for some people. So then the next thing would be debt relief. So that's where you're making your minimums or just above the minimums. It's going to take you 30, 40 years to pay off, you know, $7,500 in debt because you can barely make those minimums.

So our program will basically say, you know, if your minimums are adding up to $700 a month, maybe we can get a program payment that's $350 a month.

So we can work towards settling those debts, and that immediately gives some cash flow back. So it's really a cash flow issue in a long-term kind of goal that you have to make for yourself. I want to get rid of my unsecured debt versus I want to keep my credit score. Sometimes we aren't concerned about credit. We're concerned about getting people out of debt, right? And then you can rebuild credit faster than you can with bankruptcy. So that's ultimately the goal and the consumer that we like to work with.

So those are like the big three. I guess four, you have sort of like debt consolidation, like a DIY debt consolidation. So like in my experience, you can, if you have good credit, you can leverage that and get like a fixed rate personal loan, you know, that you can use to pay off some debt.

And then you have one payment versus having three or four, however many credit cards you've paid off. That's an option. Then you have credit counseling. So credit counseling, can you describe that for me? Because I'm not even sure if I can tell the difference between credit counseling and debt relief.

So credit counseling, you're still paying full balance, right? So when credit counseling does, it says, we'll still give you a one type of payment, one payment per month. However, you're still going to pay interest. So we'll take your interest from the 20 something percent that you had. Maybe we'll give you 10%.

whatever deal that they can get with your creditors. So if you owe 10,000, you're still paying 10,000 plus interest, and that will take however much time. And if you fail out, you miss a payment, there's really negative consequences to that. So you actually start right back to where you are, the interest comes back to your accounts,

And it's kind of a cycle that you end up starting again. So if someone is looking at credit counseling, you have to be really sure you can make those monthly payments so that you don't have to start from the beginning all over again. The difference with debt relief is we aren't reducing any interest. We are taking that balance when you enroll. Let's say it's $10,000, we are looking to reduce that amount to about 50%, which would be about $5,000.

in whether that's a lump or over time, that is all you're going to pay. Then that account is closed, it is done, versus a longer-term situation in credit counseling. So one is a little bit faster than the other.

So even if it's like, I have a $10,000 credit card balance and maybe it's spread across three cards through debt relief, I could or y'all could negotiate that down to like $5,000. But there would be no interest or that would be like inclusive of any interest. Like I wouldn't be that 5,000 is not going to go off and like continue growing as I pay it down. Right. Interesting. How do you guys manage that? What actually happens behind the Wizard of Oz curtain?

We basically want to climb in rolls. That's the balance that we work with, right? So there might be interest that does a crew, but when we look at that and when we give a quote to a consumer, we're basing it off the day that they enrolled into our program.

So when we get a settlement, that's what we aim to do. It's a matter of building the relationships with our creditors. There's leverage, right? We have hundreds of thousands of clients. So we do a lot of work to make sure that we can negotiate the best rates for our consumers because we actually have leverage for our consumers because there's such a big client base that we can work with. Interesting. What are some of the biggest clients that you guys do work with?

Do you mean banks or or like banks or is it like credit issuers? Lenders we work with lenders we work with first-party banks We work with debt collection agencies and there's this thing called debt buyers Those are people that buy debt that couldn't be collected on before and it kind of gets sold over and over and over again We work with them as well. So anyone who is an issuer or is collecting on unsecured debt. We work with them

Okay, so because you guys have such a big portfolio, I, Mandy, I enroll in debt relief, then you can say, are you even like calling up my personal creditor and talking about me and my debt? Or is it like, I'm calling on behalf of the 75 consumers, I have all their information and we want to get their debts collectively down?

It depends on what's best for the consumer. It really does depend because each issuer and collector has different rules and parameters. So there are definitely times when it's an individual, like this is the person that I'm helping right now. I actually used to be a negotiator. And there are other times where

A debt buyer, for example, might say, hey, we've had this on our books for a really long time. We'll give you a really low percentage if you can give us at least however many. So we'll go through our database and try to figure out who can afford those kind of, you know, fire sales settlements, right? So it could be a little bit of both. It just depends on what's best for the consumer and what's the best timing, how much money is available. There's a lot of different factors that go into it.

Are there sometimes, like, we've talked about older debts before? Are there sometimes, like, for either of y'all where it doesn't make sense to, like, settle older debts because maybe they're about to fall off your credit report?

It depends. Different states have different rules, unfortunately. So there are states where, yeah, it doesn't make sense. There are other states where, you know, the statute of limitations, I think, is what you're referring to may be different. Some places in seven years, some places in three years. So it depends on the state and it depends on when you last major payment, when you last made contact. Each state has weird rules. So sometimes, yes, sometimes now. So we definitely have a database that kind of tells us what it doesn't make sense.

God, I have PTSD from putting together a crazy chart. When I was managing that content team, I was like, let's do a chart. And it's going to be every state and every type of consumer debt. And we're going to tell you what the statute of limitations are. Can you imagine what a pain and what a nightmare?

You're in compliance. You know, it's like so depending like do you work with people in every state across the country just about So there's maybe five states that we don't operate in but for the most part We are in every single state or at least can offer debt really for every single state. Yeah Okay, got you all right now. How do y'all make money?

So as a business, we do charge a fee. And I'll say like some people will say, I might jump the question, why are you charging your fee? There's free services out there. And that's absolutely true, but they can't scale. So in order for us to do the work that we're doing for as many people as we're doing, we need operating costs. So that's where that fee comes in.

So that fee is set, it doesn't fluctuate, it's told upfront, and we actually bake it into that monthly program payment so that it's not an additional cost on top of anything else. We give you one quote, we are not gonna ask you for anything else, we're not gonna change fees on you. So it can be anywhere between 15 and 25% of the amount that you enrolled, right? So even if it increases, we're not charging anymore.

Mm. Okay. Does it often increase? Cause that's one thing about debt man when you're trying to get out. Sometimes if you don't, and we'll get to this, get to the part of the issue, you can just be coming back six months later, like, I got some more debt. Yeah. It happens. Um, well, reporting on credit reports is not always accurate, right? Sometimes there are things that are not reporting that pop up later that we'll add to the program for our consumers. Um, there are other times when, um,

actually happened to me when I put my first like furniture set and I didn't understand that that zero percent interest was 24 months and then it all hit me at once. So I got myself into a little bit of trouble and that will happen as well. So those promotional kind of debts that people think are really great and then you get hit with a bunch of interests all at once and that balance kind of doubles overnight that happens as well. And then

To be quite honest, people can find themselves in desperate situations and may need to swipe that card while they're in the program and it happened to be still open because they blew a tire and they couldn't afford that emergency. So there are a bunch of different reasons why it might increase, but we tend to just work with each individual consumer and have those conversations depending on what the situation is.

Yeah, that was something that I had. That was a, like an idea that I had about when, about debt really from before is that you have to close, get your accounts closed. Like you can no longer use them. Is that the case? You really shouldn't. But again, I like, I'm not going to present like life does not happen. Yeah. But I don't like you actively close the accounts. They're potentially still out there. They're potentially still out there and the creditors will eventually close them as they go past you. Yeah.

I mean, I opened what I opened a zero ballot. I'm sorry, I have zero percent interest credit card. I don't know. A couple of years ago, I think it was when we were buying like furniture or something like that or some kind of big purchase, paid it off. And then I was like, well, I'll just keep the line of credit open. And the bank was like, no, you can't have that. We closing it.

So you will make those decisions whenever they feel like it. And that's the other thing. Read the fine print when you're opening up credit cards too, because they do reserve the right to reduce your credit limits, which sometimes puts people in a lot of trouble, especially if they were carrying a balance.

Yeah, or like, you know, that's such a huge part of your credit score is your available balance versus how much debt you're carrying. And it may look really cute when you have a lot of available credit. And so when they reduce your credit limit, now it's like, oh, shoot, maybe you did have a 20% utilization rate. And now it's like 50% and you may see your score go down and not even know why, you know? 100%.

Is there anything else people should know about debt relief or any pros and cons that you want to cover before we take a little break and come back and talk about general debt tips and how to get out of debt?

Sure, I encourage people to do their research. I like to say that people look at Amazon reviews before they buy something more than when they are looking for their financial products. So be just as diligent. Don't take my word for it. Don't take Dacia's word for even Mandy's like.

do your research, look at the BBB, look at CFPB, go to the review site, see what other consumers have to say, because like you said, there's a community of people that have already experienced this, and they can actually speak more truth and be more credible when it comes to what to look for. And just make sure that these are accredited companies, even if it's not national dot, at least just make sure you work with an accredited and reputable company.

Okay, accredited. Okay. Oh, and I know what I forgot to ask about bankruptcy. You mentioned bankruptcy. So like, if you said, if you're someone who's considering bankruptcy, but you haven't filed yet, debt relief may be a step before that. Why? Why is that in particular? Because with bankruptcy, there's a potential, depending on which version of it that you file where you could maybe get a lot of your debts forgiven in full.

Yeah, so the truth of bankruptcy is there's an upfront cost to bankruptcy. And that can be a small amount anywhere to a very large amount, depending on the type of attorney that you acquire, right? Not a lot of people always said, right? People don't always have that out of pocket expense upfront. So that's one hurdle to clear. The second hurdle to clear is even if you pay that fee, there's no guarantee that you will qualify for bankruptcy. So like you said, that there's two. There's one that is really evasive.

where every asset that you might have may be taken away to put towards your debt if you even qualify for that. That's basically what they call a clean slate, but it's not, it's very painful. If you own anything, whether it's a diamond ring, a watch, a home, a car, it is up for someone else to determine whether or not it's going to be sold to pay off your debt.

And you have no say. The other version is a payment plan where, again, a lot of people will fail out of that payment plan. You paid it up to my front attorney. You get a payment plan. You miss a payment. You will start all over again. You failed out of bankruptcy. So now you're at square one. If you want to try to file again, you pay those fees again. So I like to say try debt relief before you go to bankruptcy because the repercussions, even if you are a successful bankruptcy,

to rebuild your credit. It's seven to 10 years that you're going to have that stain on your report. So what are your long term goals? If you're trying to buy a home in 10 years, bankruptcy is probably not the best. But if you do debt relief, you could be out of debt within 12 to 48 months. Start rebuilding your credit much sooner and put yourself on a path to home ownership or whatever your other financial goals are.

Yeah, it sounds like there's so many like, I mean, it doesn't sound like there. It's one of those trickiest, the trickiest things is which option is best for me? It's so nuanced and any of these options may be right for you. So like credit counseling, debt settlement, you know, filing bankruptcy.

even just floating it with debt consolidation loans or whatever. These are all just like different options that I'm hoping by having this conversation, we're opening else minds up to it. However, I think it's going to be a very personal choice and net. So if someone calls national debt relief, they don't have to. There's no pressure to like get a plan today, right? But it can be one of the steps they take toward figuring out if it is a good fit for me.

Yeah, it's absolutely free consultation and we actually do discuss all the options and give you that information. It's up to the consumer to decide what option is best for them, but we do provide all that information. Oh, I love that. Okay. Yeah, because I, you know, sometimes it's like if you go into a restaurant and you see the menu and you're like, only any of this stuff.

It's so hard to like go. I don't know if you have that like and someone listening is like, Oh, no, you're just giving me a secondhand anxiety. But having to get up and be like, I'm so sorry. I don't want this kind of food and leaving can be. Have you done that? I have. See, I love that. But you're a negotiation queen, like me.

All right, so let's take a little break and when we come back, I'm going to get Dacia in the hot seat because Miss Broke Black Girl, you need to help us not be broke anymore, okay? Please get us rich. All right, be right back to the AFAM.

All right, I am back with my guests, with our company. We got Dacia Kennedy, the broke black girl, and we've have Natalia Brown of the national debt relief. What is it? The national debt relief? What am I messing about? It's national debt relief. Just national debt relief. Yay. In the studio. So, oh my God. I mean, we've been talking about debt, y'all, and it's been a little uncomfy.

but I'm already starting to feel personally a little bit better and at least let's kick off some conversations. As we've always said, when it comes to financial advice, you want to get it from a personal source, someone who knows your unique situation. All of this content, all of this conversation is just for educational purposes. Y'all were trying to help, trying to give y'all some

some questions to ask, some ideas, just so that you can actually start tackling the debt that you may be carrying. That is, like I said, keeping snatching your sleep away from you, right? Okay, so Dacia, talk to me about what

happens when you're staring at a bunch of debt. And we've talked about some solutions to like getting rid of the debt, but how do we get to the underlying what usually is happening underneath that debt that is causing it? And how do we like nip that in the bud? So it doesn't happen again. And you can't tell me I have to give up my children because I know they are the source of my financials, but I love them. What do I do?

I think the first thing that's really important is for us to understand that this being in debt or dealing with debt is something that we all go through.

It's just one piece of our personal finance journey. And I think when we humanize that, it makes dealing with it so much easier when we realize like, okay, debt is a tool. It doesn't define who I am. I don't have to feel bad or guilty or ashamed because I've landed in debt. So I think when you are first looking at all of your debt, looking at all of your numbers, that's the first thing to realize. Like I'm not a bad person.

this is fixable, I can't come out of this. And so I think it's first important to just recognize that when you are sitting in front of all of the notices, the phone calls, the voice messages, recognizing that this may be a bad or uncomfortable situation, but it doesn't make me a bad person and this can be fixed.

And what is it usually like? I mean, is it as simple as your like, let's say it's a classic situation where you're just not making enough to meet your expenses? Like how does that, how does, and especially if you're someone who used to have more than enough, but like your expenses have increased and you may not feel comfortable like with the idea of budgeting and like having to figure out something different. Like what's your advice to someone who's

Maybe not so used to that and like to get them to actually start looking at their budget and what they can trim or what they can add or take away so that they can actually start chiseling away, chipping away at that debt.

Yes, I think that what's most important is to take out the assumption, take out the guesswork. A lot of times when we are trying to figure out what we have going on with that, we're usually guessing like, oh, I think I owe this amount. I think I have this much money coming in. So the first thing is to remove all of the guessing and actually sit down and create a list of all of the deaths that you owe, the balances, who you owe, how much you owe them.

your other expenses that you have going on each month. And I know that that sounds so redundant. It sounds terrible. Don't like it. Yes. And we hear it a lot. It's like one of the most repetitive pieces of personal finance advice, but it's because it's the most honest thing. The only way that you're going to figure out where program is going to be best for you. What's your next step is going to be?

is to actually know exactly what is going on. And I tell people all the time, you only have to do this once. You only have to push through this uncomfortable feeling one time, making the list, creating, gathering the numbers and all the information. You only have to do that one time. So I think it changes the... You do it one time, and then you just stress about it, and then you look away, and then you go about your life, and then you're like, maybe we should get that spreadsheet.

Yes, you get like, not that I know from experience. I can't stop there. Because what I like to think too, it's like, okay, I can let this hover over my head. And when I'm out trying to have a good time, I'm thinking about how much credit cord that I got. When I'm out at my son's football game, I'm thinking about how much credit cord that I got. Or I can't create the plan that one time and I can

Create the plane, create the list, know everything that's going on. Start working towards getting rid of it. And then when I'm out and I'm leaving my regular life, this isn't hovering over me. So it is uncomfortable. It's not easy and it's not fun, but you only have to do the hard part once.

Well, I don't know about just once. It's not like you, someone's still got to pay it off, right? And it's like, all right, I got my list. Now what they should, now what do I do with it? Now it's like all these different due dates and minimum payment amounts. And maybe there's some 0% stuff that's going to expire soon. So you got to know what to do with that. What, what next?

I think the next step will definitely be to figure out what your plan of action is. What's going to be your plan to start paying off some of the debt to start chipping away at it. And so again, when we have these conversations and we talk about debt management or debt repayment, there's normally two things that always come up and it is the avalanche and snowball method. So I always do. Yes. Yes. So for me, if anyone is familiar with my content, I am

the queen of chipping away at things in small increments. Why? Because it is the motivation that sells me. This, having a bunch of debt and hovering over your head, that's not always motivating. That's not always exciting. But if I can find a way to chip away at this in small increments or just make small changes, that gives me something to look forward to each day. So that takes away

being scared of the boogeyman of the large number. So now I can chip away at this in small doses and it's motivating. It's encouraging. It's something that you want to keep doing. So in your book, which is going to be coming out in March 2025. So just a few months from now in your book, is there a chapter on debt or more than one chapter? Oh, yes. Absolutely. Okay. So is it the snowball, the avalanche? What kind of methods you like? What's working for your followers?

So for me, it is the snowball method, but it's like it is with a twist. So it's the snowball method, because what I've seen work the best is it being a motivating factor to getting out of debt. When we are dealing with, and so now we're going to have us a deeper conversation. So when we are having conversations to mostly black and brown women, we already know that more than likely we're going to run into some income issues, we're going to run into

women who are probably taking on the brunch of the financial responsibilities of the household. I see this a lot in my community. So sometimes it's discouraging to say you have to pay X amount of dollars, $100 or more towards a debt. Immediately, I'm going to think about how much of my quality of life that I'm already probably scraping by is going to change.

But if someone tells me I can chip away at this in $25 increments and slowly but surely increase that by $10 every week. Doesn't sound like much, but now we have a good thing going. We have a good habit established. We have a good and we have a few good program, not programs, but patterns set up. Now we have changed it to where now it's more motivated and I'm excited to do this while also not having to take away from a pot that's probably already empty when I first started.

Yeah. So the debt snowball, break it down for us. It's been a minute. But I know B.A. Fan, you'll be listening to this show. Some of y'all have been riding since the beginning. We're about to do our 10th year. Can y'all believe that? Congratulations. Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm very excited. But also, I feel like an old crusty, like you mentioned some of the old personal finance advice. It is so, it is like broken record because that's, it's like,

It is what it is. It's money. You got it. The math is math and math. But at the same time, these concept of snowball methods, zero-sum budgeting, debt avalanche, I've heard about them, but let's reintroduce it, make it fresh, make it new. So talk about the snowball, because you said you like that one. And there's actually a study that shows that the snowball is the most effective, right? It may not save the most overall because of the difference in how you structure your debts.

But it has that, like you said, it has this flywheel of, I'm getting something done a little bit at a time. I'm seeing the balances go down. That can get addicting and can make sure that you stay motivated. So break it down for a station. Yes. So when we think about the snowball method, it really is you focusing on the smallest balance first.

and you're paying that off and then you use that amount to pay towards your next debt and so on and so on. So think of just like a snowball rolling down the hill. It starts off small, but as it goes down the hill, it picks up momentum to eventually you have a lot of money, a lump sum or a huge ball.

that you can apply to your last day at the end of the snowball method. So the beauty here is that when you are done, now that is a lump sum of money that you can either save, invest, or put back into your quality of life on a monthly basis because you have already gotten used to living without that piece of money.

And so I like that a lot because granted it may not save you the most money in the long run, but I don't like to look at things dollar by dollar because doing the avalanche method, let's say I save a lot of money doing that, but what would I have paid for it really, mentally, emotionally? I would have paid for that somewhere else that I'm probably not willing to pay that cause for that. And the avalanche is where you do it from interest rates. Yes.

So like you're paying down, it makes sense. It's like, yeah, most expensive debt goes first. And it's like order it by your APRs, by whatever you're paying an interest. But some of that most expensive debt, it can take longer.

to pay down, right? Yes. It may not be the smallest balance. And so that can get demotivating. Yes. Is that what you're saying? Yes. And the smallest balance is extremely motivating. It's encouraging. It's picking up momentum. You start to feel good about yourself because we just talked about that earlier, dealing with debt can be isolating.

you feel a lot of guilt, shame, and anxiety. So now when you finally finally have a good thing going and you're chipping away at these balances, now you're excited. You know, about doing this, you're excited to see what the end is going to look like. That's why I love that one the most. I'm going to feel excited.

Yes. Congrats on the training. Yes. I think she looks good. I know VA fan was like, Mandy, tell us how much debt you actually have, girl. Yes. Well, let me just tell you one thing that me and Deja know is that when you get a book advance, it looks really pretty, but they don't give it to you all at once. Yeah. And then you can't work while you're writing that book. So where does that money come from? Where does that money come from? That is true. That is true.

How have you been doing it while running your business at the same time?

It's been a challenge. I'm not going to lie. It's really been a challenge because I had to dedicate 18 months solely to my book, but also still working to a certain extent and being a mom. So even just for the topic of debt, I can see how when life changes, I can see how sometimes it's easy to want to rely on critical so to find ourselves

in spaces, making decisions that we probably would not have made before. That's why I think it's so important to humanize a conversation about that to where it doesn't define you as a person. It more than likely just defines a part of your life, but you can grow past it.

Yeah, for me, it's also like, it's a little bit of toxic hope, because I'm not going to lie, over the course of my career, I've always been such a good negotiator and I've been able to get like windfalls here and windfalls there that I may have had some bad habits of like overspending over the years, but they were always

there was always something that came through that was like here go and it's like it never happened. But in 2023, it was so hard and it's like, okay, it's time to put your big girl panties on. And I wonder, even for me, I have a husband and he's looking over at me like,

You got this because I usually do, you know, I don't know if y'all have, do y'all have partners and like, or do you have any tips for people who are in relationships? And it really does take to, to tango into debt and to tango out of it. And sometimes that communication is so, so hard to do.

I think we both have stories. Tell me why. What's your story now? Well, I was girls. I was in a situation where I did not have as much help, right? So I was the person, as Asia was speaking about, I've been the kind of the breadwinner in my household. And right now, as a single mom with two boys, it's just me.

I know you're talking about partnership, but I also include my kids. I think it's super important because mine could have been 19 in December and 12. They understand what we have financially, what we don't have financially, what our goals are as a family, right? Because I don't want them to squander any hard work that I've done over these years. So they have a better understanding of

at their age than what I did, right? So I'm a child of immigrants that came to America didn't necessarily understand the financial landscape. So I just think it's super, super, super important to not just talk to your partner about money and what your financial goals are. It's also like it's a whole family thing.

It's understanding, taking the kids shopping and understanding, well, that's not on sale. That's not on sale. It's so hard to see the light of your little eyes. It's like just teaching good money habits as much as possible because I think it's a whole family situation so that

you know, debt can be preventable, but it's also when there is debt, everybody understands what it is, right? So especially, you know, after the holidays, don't overspend, right? Like have that real conversation. Like what do you love the most experiences? I think are the most important things versus things. So I mean, there's some real hard. They really are. Yeah. They really are. And then when I have, I have two little babies. I mean, I'm a four year old in a well, five year old in a

one year old and the past few years, it hasn't been so much about, well, it's all about their experiences. And you know, one thing, the early childhood entertainment industry is just booming because it's like all the solutions to entertain your children costs money.

You know what I mean? Everyone's like, we'll just get a babysitter and just get, you know, have them stay extra daycare and aftercare and this and that and the third. And I'm like, or go to the trampoline park on a rainy day or go to the museum. I'm like, bro, when you're paying for a family of four, that shit adds up. It's wild birthday parties. My God, $20 gifts for everybody in their class. Like it is, I could, I seriously could go on, but I think it's funny because they always play with the box instead. You did all that.

And let there be some tissues in it. Like literally my son played all day with a piece of foam that came inside of this cute little bookcase that I built for him. Yeah, he didn't care for that. But the piece of foam shaped like a shield of a knight. He's very into in a piece of foam. That was like his little lightsaber. That's what imagination is everything. It is. It really is.

But got a single motherhood i mean i was raised by a single mom my heart really goes out to you net and we were some brady kids too i hope your kids are much more well behaved they are. What about you partnered like you know relationship finances with your kids like how are you working all that in.

No, so I am divorced. I've been divorced. It's probably going on about a decade. So I'm raising my two boys by myself. You've lived so many lives, huh? Yes. Oh, I have. I have. So many. So many. I have 16-year-old and 12-year-olds. And it's really the same with Ned. I evolved them.

a lot in the finances. I can say my 12 year old does not care about nothing that I say. He don't care about budget. He don't care about a credit card payment. He does not care. Like he's at the age where it's like it's not computing to him. It's like he wants it. He doesn't understand why he cares. Like he's not a brat or anything when he just can't put two or two together. And he still thinks like all of you swipe a card

If you have the court and you swipe it, it should work. So we're like working through, like, getting them to really understand how it goes. But I involved them a lot just like that in all of the financial decisions. It was important for me to sit them down so that they can see me pay our rent. They can see me pay our court notes so they can actually see what those numbers look like. Like it's not as simple as just swiping the court and it's done.

One of the best things that I have love navigating with them is unpaid labor in the household. I wanted to introduce my voice to that as early as possible. And we talk about that a lot like if when you're eating someone is cooking just because you're not seeing it get done like someone is doing it. And I started that with hey if you're walking past a laundry room

and it's overflowing with your clothes on a Monday. And then Tuesday, all of those clothes are washed. Someone did that. So I talked to them a lot about unpaid labor, how it means for us all to play a part in the household because they were older. If they were much younger, the conversation would be different, but they are older boys. So I talked to them about that a lot, but it is important to involve them in all working aspects of money, especially in the household.

Because they're their boys. They're going to go out in the world. They're going to, you know, possibly one day get married. I don't want someone to, yes. I feel like I always tell myself. I always tell myself, like, I'm doing this for your wife, from my daughter-in-law. That's, that's like my mindset. Like, I want to make sure she is in the best position possible because I've done everything that I can for you while you were in my care.

The partners that come before the wife or the husband or whatever your, your, your pronoun of choice. I'm going to go ahead and put this book on blast again, boy, mom. Reimagining boyhood in the age of impossible masculinity library, you'll get the book back when I'm done with it. Okay.

I don't know. Oh my gosh. All right. So, Dacia, queen of small steps. This is a new year. And I've heard one step, which to me is not so small, but it is a big step. It is sitting down and getting your information in one place. And that includes every credit card balance, every

Every bill that you have coming, every expense down on paper spreadsheet. Mint is gone. What are the girls using now? I have in power. That's the app that I use. Oh, nice. Formerly known as personal capital. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Dasha? I still use a spreadsheet. I am an Excel girl through and through. I still use fresh sheets. Yeah.

I just love that you say, exhale. It's such a, oh, the St. Louis accent, it should be studied. It's amazing. All right, I love it. Okay, so we have our numbers down and now we are sweating. And it's like, can I afford a bottle of wine because I need some wine? Or it's like, get an edible, like get your little gummy. I might get a gummy from the closet and just sit down and just like, kids are in bed and just let the relaxation national debt relief. Don't shake your head, Nat. You don't endorse that. Okay. Get you in trouble.

Yeah, just whatever it takes. Self-soothing, all right? And then I am working on ordering them from smallest balance to highest. Now, I don't have tons of patience for trimming expenses. I need what I need. Do you know what I need? And I can justify anything. For me, it's always about more money. How do I get, bring more, and that is the solution in a lot of ways.

So looking for additional sources of income, whether that's increasing your rates if you are freelancing, asking for a raise, obviously at work, quitting and getting a better offer somewhere else, as I coach women to do all of the time, but bringing in extra money is always nice. But then what are some baby steps from there? Like when it comes to just like chiseling that down, are you talking about

like I've seen on Instagram, you'll post these like savings challenges. And it's like day one, two dollars, day three, seven. And it goes from there. What has worked? What can you see working? I see a lot. When I post those sales challenges, I get a lot of positive feedback because the amounts are so small that a lot of people who use them, they don't really miss the money. And it's small and it's increasing in very small increments that they don't realize that

they are taking money from their income, putting it to the side and they don't miss it because it's so small. So I do see that that works a lot too. I see a lot of budgeting that works. I am a huge fan of zero based budgeting. It's the only budgeting method that I recommend because it gives, I know it's not the only one that works, but it's the only one that I recommend because you get to give every single dollar that you bring in a job to do.

keeping your money busy. I'm someone who believes that my money should work just as hard as me, that I should not have any money that's sitting idle. I need to have a plan for it. And just because my money is busy doesn't mean that it's all spent. It's just mean that it's all accounted for. So if I didn't come across any extra money, I know that, hey, maybe I can put this towards savings. Maybe I can put this towards debt. I think that that is very important. So I see a lot when I share with my audience,

different ways to do things that are less stressful, small increments, small amounts, those tend to go over very well because it is less intimidating.

So zero base budgeting, I do like that. That's one is, yeah. So zero base budgeting is a method that I've definitely heard of before. And that's where every dollar, even if it's like this $20 is going to go to your 401k or this $20 is going to go toward your emergency savings, like it has a job. It doesn't just stay in your checking account.

Yeah, and I think that that's such a good approach because it's been so many times, especially when I first started out, I'll look at my bank account and I'll say, oh, I got an interest, $200. And then I'll spend it, then I'll realize, oh, I didn't pay the light bill or, oh, and so now I'm stuck in a cycle of payday loans, which is exactly how I ended up in debt in the first place because I wasn't accounting for all of the money that I was bringing in.

And so I sort of to think like, I'm working hard all week. I don't want my money just lost and sit in idle and wasted. I want to track every single dollar that I bring in. And that's not to micromanage, but you do want to be involved with what's happening with your money, what's coming in and out of your account. Okay, zero based budgeting. We're going to post a link so you guys can learn more about that. Not any final tips, any final words?

Um, I think this is a great conversation. Like we could talk about this all day actually. No, I think my stress levels are high enough. Thank you. At lunch. We're not allowed to talk about any of this. Absolutely not. Don't wear that sweatshirt. Don't even bring. Don't even bring me a pen. This is our time. Okay. So yeah, all I will say is is.

Just know that having a plan is better than no plan and is never ever too late to really sit down and figure out what the goal is. I like to work backwards.

So my motivation comes from I want X by X date and then I'm going to figure out how I'm going to get there, excuse me, come hell or high water. That is just how I look at it, right? So that big shiny thing at the end of the road that I really want the most and it might be an experience is something that's true to who I am and genuine to who I am or what I want to provide for my children. And that's what keeps me like really focused on.

I could buy that bag, but I think I would rather my kids go to any college that they want to without a student loan, right? So like that's one of my big, big, big things. So it's never too late to start. It's never too late to learn. It's never too late to increase your income. There are people that are getting into acting at like 70, right? So like there are possibilities everywhere. Y'all are writing books. I'm so proud of y'all. It's like they're the possibilities. So.

Just know that debt is one of those things. It's just another possibility that you can overcome.

Yeah, some of that optimism. We got it, y'all. All right, BA fam. I want to hear from y'all. Please send us an email, send us a DM on Instagram at brand ambition podcast, brand ambition podcast at gmail.com. I want to know how you felt about this conversation and what are some of the baby steps you are going to take to start tackling this debt because I want to do this brand ambition listener survey in six months. And I want to see that we are handling business. Okay, we got our Olivia Pope crisis management white hats on.

Let's handle our shit, be a fan, okay? We can get out of this mess together. No judgment, no shame, just action. Thank you, Dasha, and thank you, Nat, for joining from National Debt Relief. Dasha, congrats on the book. We can't wait to get our copy and have you back on the show when it's finally out in the world. Thank you. I'm excited. Thank you both. Take care.

Hi, I'm Joe Salcy. Hi, host of the Stacking Benjamin's Podcast. Every week, we talk to experts about saving, investing, personal finance trends. Oh, crypto. Can't do it. You could have done all that research, all the breadcrumbs, and thought this company's never going bankrupt. Foil to get. You never knew personal finance could be this fun. Throw in doubt the gut won't. I'm bringing it today. I'm only going to be off by six figures in 2007. Every boy has a dream, Doc. Every boy has a dream. For sure. Stacking Benjamin's. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.