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Hello and welcome to Bad With Money, a show about finances and feelings where we don't talk down to you. I'm your host Gabe Dunn. And today we are finishing up our first Bad With Money book club. It is for the book Same As Ever by Morgan Haussel. I'm really excited to get into this part because, you know, it's been ups and downs with this book.
I liked it, then I really hated it, then I sort of, if you listened to the last episode of Book Club, I liked it again. I think, you know, a pop psychology book can be a real mix of interesting reframings. I'm not going to say like information, but like interesting ways to reframe the things that you think, whether the information is 100% accurate or not. I, you know, I did do some fact checking and it's like,
Some of it is sort of like he doesn't like look into the true story behind some of the things he says. He just kind of uses them as examples, which is like classic pop psychology book. But that doesn't mean there hasn't been interesting perspective building on my end, having read it. So let's get into chapter 20, which is called Now You Get It.
This is actually very timely due to the election that has occurred, the 2024 presidential election in the United States, where Donald Trump has won. Morgan Hausle says, nothing is more persuasive than what you've experienced firsthand. A generation can't profit from the generation before because they need to experience everything firsthand.
And I was talking to my friend Sarah Marshall yesterday and we were talking about how, you know, the phrase, those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. But she and I were talking about the reality that even those who know history are still doomed to repeat it. Knowing history doesn't actually help you.
And I think this is a great example of that where it doesn't matter if you know or don't know what has happened in the past. You actually can't really learn from it until at least most people can't really learn from it until they experience firsthand the consequences of their actions. You could tell someone all day and all night
This is what's happened before. This is what will always happen as, you know, Hausle named his book same as ever. It still is not going to matter. There's the element of nothing else is working. So might as well try. And I read this chapter before the election and in my notes, I wrote down Trump voters.
Because that seems to be one of the talking points. Like one of them is like, well, we had him for four years and he didn't do anything that bad. That's being lulled into a false sense of security because past data points don't indicate what future data points will be. So it actually doesn't tell us anything about what his next term will be like, especially now that he's emboldened.
Household talks about 1930s Germany and how there was a depression, there was hyperinflation, and that's kind of a lot of it is what led to the election of Hitler, which is, again, what we're seeing here today.
There's a book called What We Knew. And it includes interviews with German civilians where they interviewed them after World War II. It asked them, why did you vote for Hitler? How did this happen? Hitler took them to a better life in an emergency. And so under stress, they embraced things they never imagined they would.
And this is exactly what's going on with Trump. They needed jobs, Hitler provided jobs. And also it was an emergency. Like if you're thinking clearly, you're not going to vote the same way as you would if you feel you're in an emergency. And these people
are racist, transphobic, et cetera, but they're being whipped into a frenzy because they think that everything is like a dire emergency because, of course, they're scared, but they're being redirected to be scared about the things that aren't actually coming for them. I think all the time about this quote from Alan Moore's The Killing Joke, which I know we talk about Batman a lot on this show, I'm not even that huge of a Batman fan.
The Killing Joke is one of the most amazing tellings of a Batman story ever. And it's a graphic novel. I read it probably in college. It's widely regarded as one of the best. And there's a quote from it that this chapter makes me think of. And it's a quote that I think about all the time. And it is the Joker says, all it takes is just one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am, just one bad day. And I know that that sounds
like very bleak and dramatic. It has stuck with me because I really I really do believe that that is true. I think that that explains a lot of human behavior. People don't understand poverty or they don't understand homelessness or they don't understand
What it's like to be in a dire situation and so they imagine that they wouldn't do there's no world in which they would do what these people are doing. Even if even if they were you know in the diarist of straits and everyone was going to die they simply would hold their morals. And that's just not been what I've witnessed. I've witnessed and experienced myself way more of what Alan Moore writes you know that the Joker says.
Some of the people where this quote is posted on Reddit, where I just went to look for the exact wording, people are mixed on it. You know, Joker aims to corrupt his views are twisted. This is how he came to be. This quote is more about circumstances than morals. Like it's an excuse, basically. You know, someone said, I hate this quote. It sounds so profound, but there's a fine line between good and evil, crazy and sane. We like the idea of these things because they dramatize our lives, but is it actually true? No.
This person doesn't think so. I have no relevant professional training, but it doesn't align with my observations or common sense. I argue that he's not saying that. He's saying there's a breaking point that everyone has a breaking point and that some people survive their breaking point and some people don't and everyone handles their breaking point in a different way. And whether you think it's a real breaking point or not, that's the problem is that these people are convinced by circumstances.
to abandon what they would ordinarily morally do because they're being pushed to a breaking point, whether it's a psychological breaking point or a real breaking point. How Zil talks about there's no way training can train you for combat that most people that go through basic training are still completely taken by surprise by being in the middle of a shootout. And so that's an example of what, you know, I'm talking about where it's like, how could you shoot people? How could you fight when you're in the military? And it's like, you're just not even thinking about that till you get there.
people embrace things they never thought they would during a downturn. And I do tend to think that that is true. I look, and I say this with love, but I say this to people all the time. The average person is much more basic id than we even could imagine. Imagine someone, you're talking, I'm talking about the ego and the id, right? Imagine someone who is like positively feral in fear and in
I'm going to say stupidity, but I don't know if that's the right word and bare minimum basic needs, right? That's more, more people are like that. And I don't know if I'm just in a, in a mood or if it's just kind of like a funk. But, you know, another quote I think about a lot is, is the Anne Frank quote, in spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart.
And that's lovely. I'm I don't think that's true. I think I'm getting closer to the Joker. He quotes Jim Carrey, who said speaking up who played the Riddler. Success is rarely what you thought it would be. Jim Carrey said, everyone should get what they want so they can know it's not the answer. Now, I thought the end of that quote was going to be so that they know it's not that great. But he's not saying it's not great. He's it is great, but it's not the answer. I don't know that I
agree with that. I think it can change basic unhappiness. Like it's an interesting concept, but you know, Howzel says the quote, people in mansions can get the flu. And like, yes, that is true. But I think the people in the mansions could acknowledge quicker that getting the flu is a very different experience for them than it is for most people.
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Chapter 21, Time Horizons. We finally quote a woman. He talks about the actress Elizabeth Taylor, who gave an interview to the press saying that her relationship will last forever, and then got divorced days later. And he talks about how people make plans, right? Like saying you have a 10 year time horizon to accomplish things doesn't opt you out of the next 10 years. The longer your time horizon, the more problems there could be.
Everyone has to sign up for the ride. He talks about how the only way to run a business is to have short term gains because customers will flee at the first sight of trouble. But it's because communication of strategy and volatility isn't strong. So it's not, and I agree with this.
I think a lot of times the idea is to slash slash slash like get rid of cost get rid of cost rather than communicating to investors or to people that there is a longer term strategy and that volatility is a natural baked in like part of the process like the longer you you invest in something the more it'll go up and down but that is the
benefit of having that long period of time. If you want to just entice people with short term gains, you should have a short term time horizon. That said, long term thinking can be a crutch for those who are wrong and don't want to change their minds. Well, I'm just early to this. I'm ahead of my time. Instead of taking into account the idea that maybe this used to be true, but the world has moved on. Are you being patient or just stubborn? And how they'll gives the advice that you should know the one to three things in your industry that will never change.
Think about the industry you're in, look it up, research, think about, write down the one to three things that will never change about your industry and focus on those.
I don't really agree with this, but he talks about how that he remembers more from books than he does from newspapers. Will I care about this a year from now? And he's like, it's fine if the answer is no. It's not bad if the answer is no. It's just as useful to read newspapers than it is to read books, but you're not going to remember newspaper headlines. He talks about two types of information, permanent and expiring. And what is the value of each one? We chase expiring information in an effort to squeeze meaning from it before it loses relevance.
And I like that a lot. I think that is a really helpful reframing. That's one of the most interesting things in this book. When you chase a trend in TV and movies, and by the time it gets up on the silver screen, it's no longer relevant. Or we've learned something new that changes the way we've thought about this thing.
Meanwhile, he says permanent information compounds. Look into why something happened and why it'll happen again. That's why he likes the benefit of history rather than the immediacy of news. I don't know. I mean, I think getting stuff as it's happening is useful. I don't know. Like he's again, like I do remember things from the newspaper, not just things from books. So okay, chapter 22, trying too hard. There are no points awarded for difficulty.
I don't think that's entirely true. I mean, in the Olympics, they do, but anyway, that's so autistic of me. Okay. He says that people ask you simplicity for complexity. For example, doctors talk about how there's too much focus on cancer treatment and not on cancer prevention, because prevention is boring.
I think it's because these things are not on our minds or like dark stuff is not on our minds unless it's already happening. There's a top cancer researcher who said convincing people not to smoke could make a bigger impact on cancer numbers than any cancer research. He could make a bigger impact on getting people to live and not get cancer or survive cancer.
then by becoming someone who just markets quitting smoking, then he could in all of his research. But convincing people not to smoke is psychological. It's not biological. He says that complexity sells better.
because people believe complexity is better or more interesting. And I was saying I could say the same for film, right? Like think about Christopher Nolan's tenant. People didn't like it, but there is something to a twist, right? You love a movie with a twist because you want to believe you saw it coming. It's complex.
The tax code is long. Apple's terms and conditions are long. It makes you feel safe. It makes you feel like they've covered everything. But Hausal says, if you've covered the few things that matter, you're set. It's actually not impressive to have these things be more padded out. Primitive animals had duplicate parts, multiple jaws, a couple of rib cages that they didn't need, et cetera. An evolution consolidated and increased their usefulness.
Give me the few things I need and make it effective. You don't have to remember a zillion things. Three to four principles that carry your field is all that you need to remember. In terms of money, Housel says it's spend less than you make, save, and be patient. For healthiness, he says, sleep eight hours, move a lot, eat real food, but not too much.
This is this is for the average simple person. This is for a very specific type of person. And I don't even know if that's average. This is for a type of person most depicted. I don't know that it is the average person at all. What do you guys think about this? He talks about people wanting to dazzle with nonsense. And he says in his opinion, the shorter the book, the less bullshit.
And that is interesting. He mentioned Stephen King's book on writing, which is generally considered one of the best books about writing ever. And the book is really short. And Stephen King says that's on purpose because he doesn't want to pad it out. He doesn't want it to look like, wow, this is a really big tone. So it must be more important and must have more information for me and make me a better writer. He's like, it doesn't. Like, here's everything I know. It doesn't have to be that complicated. But why is complexity appealing?
because it gives us the illusion of control. The impression of knowledge increases. You want to look like you have all the knowledge. So you spew out everything. If it's that simple, other people could just do it. No one ever says, I have no idea. I never look at that because it makes you look dumb.
There's an example where he talks about like somebody with investing, right? And he says, this is the way I invest. And someone's like, well, what about this stock? If the guy says, yeah, I don't know. I never look at those stocks. I focus on the ones that I know do well. Someone might fire him because they're like, well, that's dumb. You're not taking in all the information, but is he taking in the best information?
Length is seen as the only thing to signal thoughtfulness and expertise. It shows the author has spent more time thinking about this topic than you have, which, you know, engenders trust. He talks about Dr. Thomas McCray that famously said it's actually good that he'd never heard of some of these rare diseases because it allowed him to be right about the most simple diagnosis. Some are too attracted to rare things and forget the law of averages.
And he tells this story about how, you know, a doctor was going over things with a patient and was like, it's going to be this rare disease. And then it wasn't. It was actually something really simple. And again, I think that's really simplistic because I wrote, ask anyone who can't get a freaking diagnosis. It would actually maybe behoove doctors to know a little bit more, to be honest.
Okay, chapter 23. Wuhan Seal, scars last.
And this is interesting to me. I really enjoyed this. What have you experienced that I haven't that makes you believe what you do and would I believe the same if I'd experienced it too? Sounds like Dr. Seuss, but it's the real question. He talks about driving past the Pentagon and there's no scars from 9-11. You would never be able to tell that a plane ran into that building, but the airport is where the scars are. You know, shoes off, jackets off, empty your water bottle.
people that were born or raised during the depression are very dubious about taking chances. That's a scar. He talks about a story about Pavlov's dogs, which I didn't know this story. Apparently they almost drowned. They were like, there was a flood in the lab or something and they almost drowned and they were so traumatized. And after all the training he had done, after everything that he had done to get them to think a certain way, they all went back to how they used to be. This trauma changed them. They were never the same. Their behavior that they had learned vanished.
You can even be traumatized by the spectacle of an event, someone who says they saw someone die by suicide. Like even though you don't, if you didn't know the person at all, if it had nothing to do with you, it was from like 10 feet away, whatever, it still, it can still cause PTSD, it can still cause trauma.
So we can have short memories. Let's say you even forget about it, like 50 years from now, you don't even remember that that happened. Though that's, that would be wild to forget about stress will leave a scar. It's that the body keeps the score type thing. In 1936, there was a, an article that came out that said the present college generation is buttoned up and unadventurous.
Which like, yeah, it was it was right after a war. And Hassel says that's always the case after war. Always. The generation becomes like really scared and really stressed out. And there's a scar. I mean, think about COVID. I think there's a deep scar after COVID. I think that that's what we're experiencing.
He also talks about how disagreement will always be constant. There will never be people who don't disagree vehemently with each other because experience is Trump knowledge. You can know everything. And at the end of the day, your experience will be completely different or your experience will create your opinion about something more so than any knowledge you can acquire.
He said, people get really, really angry the more they're exposed to different viewpoints that aren't their own. They disagree more than ever when they're exposed to new viewpoints, which is very interesting because we're often taught that when you are exposed to new viewpoints, you might become more open minded. But Hassel says, the more the internet exposes people to views that aren't their own, the more upset they are that they exist. And they do not become more open. They become more upset that more people don't think the way they do. And that is actually really disturbing to them.
And I think that that's what goes on with transphobia. I think that what goes on, that's what goes on with polyamory sometimes. I think that is with queerness with, you know, like the free Palestine movement, like I think the more people are exposed to stuff, at least now in 2024, I agree with this opinion. I agree that it causes people to feel more angry because I think sometimes transphobia, let's say as an example comes from someone, and I'm not saying it's people,
who are trans, secretly trans. I'm saying that even if they're cis, they are upset that someone is allowed to not do gender the way that they've been forced into, and that can't be real. That's my opinion, and that's been my opinion for a long time. But this book helped me like frame it differently.
So he ends the book with questions. He tells the story of how someone asked Eleanor Roosevelt if she was nervous about some big like new law that was coming through or new deal that was coming through. And she said, to be nearly 60 and to rebel at uncertainty is ridiculous.
Hausel says, you can try to forecast with more data, like it's better to look backward and be broad. What has the past never avoided? More history, less forecasts, if you have the forecast, do it with more data about the past and be very broad with what has occurred. But he argues that you need more history and less forecasts. The more history he imbibed, the more comfortable he became with the future. So he ends on these questions. Okay, let's get to the questions.
Who has the right answers but I ignore because they're not articulate? Which of my current views would I disagree with if I was born in another country or another generation? What do I wish was true so badly? I ignore information. What is something I think only applies to other countries or industries that will eventually hit me? What do I think is true but is just marketing? What have I not experienced firsthand that leaves me naive? Am I prepared to handle risks I haven't even thought of?
What are we ignoring today that will seem shockingly obvious in the future? How much of things outside of my control impacted the things that I take credit for? And what is same as ever?
That's the last one. The last one is, is just me kind of buttoning up his book for him. I feel like he didn't really feel like we could have really, you know, done the thing where the movie says the title. Okay. Well, that's the end of same as ever by Morgan Hassel. Thank you for coming on this ride. Let me know what book you would like me to read in the future and talk about on this show or you want to read together. I was thinking of maybe doing nudge, which Alex recommended. Maybe something by a woman. What do we think? Okay. Love you guys.
Bad with money with Gabriel as done is a production of Noted by Sexual, produced by Melissa D. Mott's and Diamond M-Print Productions. Edited by Diane Kang, post-production sound by Coco Lorenz, production assistance by Melanie D. Watson, and music by Mike Kaplan's actor when in Jack Doljan, sung by Sam Barbera. Thank you, love you, bye!
