A very low squat and a very fast get up (with Prof. Suzannah Lipscomb)

If any representative of the spring or memory foam industry, I always think with memory foam, what happens if it's a bad memory? What have you been drinking this weekend? I want to have some of it.

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Greetings. Welcome to another edition of Off-Air, the podcast. We don't understand what it is, but it's basically where Jade and I come to propel a more political version of our personalities towards you. Thank you for greeting them.

Do you know what I saw something this weekend that has blown my mind, Garvey, it was a dark blue mattress. It was being delivered to a house over the road, a brand new dark coloured mattress, and I just thought, why? Well, I think I know why. Hasn't this been a thing before?

No, but why have we had white mattresses and pale mattresses ever since the mattress was invented? You just drop a tiny bit of orange juice on it. When you next go and look at the mattress, it looks like you've had a massacre in your bed.

Why have we had such a dirt-spillage show in colour on an actress? Absolutely fascinating, and I didn't know we were going here, Anna, but I'm delighted to do so. Speaking as a representative of the British Mattress Council,

You will of course have heard our advice which is that you have to replace your mattress at least once every is it five what they normally come out with some stat five six or seven years it depends how well the mattress industry is doing if they're not doing very well replace it every year

But if they're doing very well, you can take a decade. But you know what I mean? 100 billion, trillion per cent, agree with what you're saying. And it is really fascinating this. Is it it can't just be because they want you to feel so repulsed by the stage? Which, by the way, isn't it inevitable?

There is going to be blood, vomit and other substances. You can't live without that happening. You have a hot summer or middle age and you will ruin your mattress just because you will sweat in bed. Speak for yourself. Well, I'm sorry. I know that you're only gently glow.

But, yeah, every mattress after a couple of months of using it will look tired and worn and rather horrendous. Yeah. So I just thought, wow. Wow. Isn't this progress? I'm going to order a dark coloured mattress next time, right? OK. Yeah, do that. I mean, presumably you pay a premium. Can we look up the price of a... Can we look Eve? Would you mind waking up, please, darling? We're doing the podcast. She had a hectic weekend. She'd been to Hastings. I know. I'm intrigued. Yeah.

Anyway, as I always say about Hastings, there was trouble there once, but I think things are calmer these days. Now, it's a really, really interesting point. Matrices are powerful expensive, whereas the bed frame itself can actually be quite moderately bright and cheap. Yeah, it's like you buy a printer and you think, oh, that's not too bad. And then you have to buy the ink and that's 180 pounds. So that's extraordinary. Anyway, we've veered off. So, yeah, what is it? Why aren't they done this before? Why are they doing it now?

And thank God for it, I would say. Because, you know, you're in a quality neighbourhood, and only speaking here for London, when you see an unstained mattress that's been fly-tipped.

Yeah, well I'm very envious when I see an unstuck mattress and I think actually one of the reasons why the mattresses in our house have not been replaced on the advice of the British mattress council every couple of years is because I'm genuinely just too embarrassed to put them out. It looks like I'm a very slovenly kind of matriarch of the household.

But it's not, you know, it's not that. It's just that... Well, I suppose we don't use mattress covers either. I've never... Haven't you? No, I've never invested in those. I think you might have some... Oh, what's the news, Eve? Very, very rare. Very rare, you see, why? Trust you to have rare neighbours. Now, don't start getting ticky.

OK, no, so it was just a very nice, dark, navy-blue colour. Marble effect. You want some marble effect? Well, but that would cover the... Oh, I see, yes, I'm just... I'm just going to do myself here. Anyway, look, let's not dwell on it too much, but if any representative of the spring or memory foam industry... I always think with memory foam, what happens if it's a bad memory?

What have you been drinking this weekend? I want to have some of it. Could you get in touch to let us know what's going on? Thank you very much. I'm sure we'll get a whole shoal of response to that. It has, I'm afraid, made me feel a little bit bit bit clammy because I realise I do desperately need to change my mattress. It's seen too much.

We have a good guest today. Yes, unusual I know. Our guest is Professor. She's a professor. Don't say that. We have great guests. We've had amazing guests. We have incredible guests. Professor Susanna Lipscomb is our guest today. Now, she's made a series of documentaries for Channel 4 called A History of Royal Scandals. And you'll be glad to know, Fi. Yes. That my great friend, Eleanor of Aquitaine.

Come on, I'll tell you what, for someone who I thought was somewhat cast into the annals of history, she popped up a lot, isn't she? She is. She features in one of Susanna's documentaries for Channel 4, now available, of course, on all four. Rumours of sexual impropriety were used against the Great Eleanor. She was Queen of England between 1154 and 1189.

Well, she had a long stint, didn't she? Yeah, that's quite a stretch, isn't it? Back in the 12th century, crikey. She must have been made of girders. People were fearful of Eleanor, apparently, because she was a powerful woman, and the easiest way to bring down a woman in medieval times was to attach sexual scandal to her name. Well, I mean, that's not gone away. It hasn't gone away at all. So I think Susanna will be a very, very interesting guest. I watched one of her docs last night, actually.

I'd lie. It was during the afternoon, while I was preparing our sumptuous evening meal of a mushroom pasta bake. Well, that's OK, because you can call it work, can't you, when you're watching that kind of thing? Yeah. I have to confess on Saturday afternoon, I watched some fictional television during the day. And that just goes against the slub of my being, because we were only allowed to watch television during the day, if it was nonfiction, it was informative television, when you use the to watch drama during the day. I'm sorry, I am surprised. I was allowed to watch the World of War.

But that isn't exactly the same, that was on a Sunday afternoon. Yeah, I've had to, I've had to, I've had to, I've had to, I've enjoyed it, I think not. Oh my God, I don't, honestly, I don't know what's got into you. Descending into fiction on a Saturday afternoon. I know. Well, I'm going to pour my socks up, that's for sure. Do you do? Send help? Yes, send help and sell, send help soon. How are you feeling about the continuation of our crude vegetables?

I think we'll keep it. I mean, out of respect to the baby Jesus, I think we should stop it in December. OK. So can we just keep it going for another week or so? There's a very rude, circumcised carrot, although I also think quite accurate. I'm actually livid that, based on my retail experiences over the weekend, Christmas has well and truly started. It's very much absolutely farcical. There are lots of wreaths. God, yes, there are. What's that about?

I mean, some people weirdly had a kind of Halloween wreath, which I thought was just... I think you can get wreath for everything. You can get summer wreath now and Easter bonnet wreath and all kinds of things. God, just stop it. Yeah. It's too much, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. But, I mean, Tesco yesterday, it may as well have been Christmas Eve. Yeah, I did see the mince pies are out. Do you like a mince pie? Oh, yeah, mine are mince pies. I got stand of mince pies.

Absolutely shocking item. Would you not even eat a mince pie off a navy blue mattress? No, I definitely wouldn't. Right? No. No, they're problematic for me. This one comes in from Caroline. Now, Caroline is from the Scottish borders. She is of the Oomai Mary fame. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. Yes, she's a...

She's a cold water swimmer, and that is her cry. And Caroline, you have sent us a very funny carrot, and thank you very much indeed for that. I just want to say hello as well to Elizabeth Gray. She is the one who sent a carrot who's... Well, I mean, there's a well-endowed carrot, isn't it? And the circumcised carrot from China comes courtesy of Tamsin. So thank you very much indeed. We are enjoying that.

But I think we'll probably do as Lady Garvey says, we'll keep this going until December. And then just out of respect for all of the pastnips who are preparing themselves, we will just rest it for a while. I just cannot believe that we're already talking about how to cook roast potatoes. I saw an article, it must have been in the Tires magazine at the weekend, how to prepare the perfect roast potato. Oh my God, not again! I mean, it's back to haunt us, this festive, bloody nightmare.

It's an annual event, isn't it? It is. Yes, your rancor at Christmas isn't an annual event. Just a good bit of sake. You've got family to love, you've got food on the table, sure. One gin to the good is Diana, who emails to say, it's Friday night, and I'm catching up with you guys. What do we think about that? I think that's all right. I'm still not content with being a guy. Oh, I see. I thought you meant listening to us on a Friday night. Oh, listen to us on a Friday night.

I just don't mind. I'm trying not to mind. I used to tweet about this that I had a little mini campaign. I've had several, more than several unsuccessful campaigns. I campaigned against the use of the word guys, meaning everybody. And I campaigned as well to try and make it more possible for women to urinate in public.

because men were doing it all the time. And I just haven't got anywhere, really, with either of them. And this actually cropped up again. It came into my head over the weekend because there was a story about a rare bird that was attracting a load of twitchers. Isn't that quite? I don't know which. I can't remember. I'm afraid which part of England people were gathering. Bird enthusiasts were gathering to watch or to try and catch a glimpse of this very rare bird. And overwhelmingly, the twitchers were men.

And I think it was a BBC reporter asked them, well, what about your lavatory arrangements? And they just said, well, it's not a problem. We just find a tree and we're discreet. But there were a couple of female twitches, who said it was one of the biggest problems they had, was that they were very keen on bird-watching. But they just were somewhat scuppered by their inability to wee in public. And I just... I mean, in a way, we've just got to get over there. You can see why my campaign didn't work. We've just got to get over this hump, haven't we?

Yes, darling, we have. Yes, we do have to, but I'm not sure... I'm not sure... I don't really want... I don't want to be... But I just don't... I don't want more people being in public. That's an emblem. Darling, I'm totally with you. I am 100% with you, but annoys me that this is another way that men are slightly... They're more... They're liberated in a way that we're not. Well, but we can...

We can we in public, but we just have to... What is it? We do have to have someone to kind of stand in front of us and slightly protect our privacy, or you just have to do a very, very low squat, I think, and then a very, very fast get-up. Wear a long skirt. I mean, this is a niche inside a crevice or a crevice inside a niche, but, you know, it's not a hill I want to die on.

I just think it's always really interesting that they just go everywhere. Anyway, back to Diana. You might recall that I did start off reading a re-mail about four days ago. I don't think anybody will. It's Friday night and she's catching up with us guys. Rewashing hands.

In the Times newsroom before February, there was always a horrendous coal going round with loads of hacking and blowing and gasping and groaning. Before we were all sent home, it was extraordinarily clear what a difference everyone washing their hands properly and regularly made. Like Jane, I always wash my hands now when I come in. Read the Innovations catalog. Do you remember the neck massager, which was clearly a vibrator?

The first wish is to all Diana P.S. I'm back in the building after leaving for a year. People do that a lot, don't they? They leave, they come back. Not just in this establishment, but generally. Diana, I'm delighted you're back. Absolutely delighted. Oh, was she? She says, Fi, putting two spaces at a full point disappeared before we went all went on to computers.

please check the times to see current practice. So I just haven't even noticed that this has changed, but I was taught, so I did a secretarial course. Can I say you are a brilliant type? Thank you very much indeed. Extremely speaking. It's the nicest thing that you've ever said to me. Because I'm still on the old one finger. Yes, sometimes I do. I can't quite work out how we both managed to write a book within the same time frame.

I guess your typing is about... It's about two words a minute. Yeah, it's not great, and I always have to go back and correct everything. But we had it really drilled into us that you did the double space with the spacebar after full stop. But it's absolutely on me to not have noticed that that changed about 12 years ago.

So we won't be needing computers anymore, will we? Because we'll just be in the world of AI and chat GPT and we'll just speak out loud and somebody will put it down and send it to the relevant person and we'll never need keyboards again. That is the reality, isn't it? On the way in today I was looking at the ads on the tube and there's one for a company that advertises writing books for couples so they can write a love story inserting the characters

names. So if you're called Wendy and you want to write a love story about Brian or whatever it might be, you can send off the details and this company will do it for you. And I was looking at it thinking, well, that sounds great, but obviously they'll just be using AI. So you can just do it yourself at home. Yeah, just do it yourself. Don't bother giving the money.

Yeah, because if you can do it. So we've had quite a few people who've done the same thing with chat GPT as we don't just put in their relevant things, and I will read out some excerpts during this week of what chat GPT has managed to create. Somebody's done it with Wolf Hall, haven't they? Yeah, I mean, you do really wonder how many books you've already read. Oh, my goodness.

that are chat GPT and I don't want to name names because it would be unfair if I've got it wrong. But I think you and I have definitely, around this time of year, last year, interviewed quite a few people. Please tell me right down the name. Yeah. So one of them in particular was just so indigestible.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Do you think? Quite possible. Yeah. Do you think Eve? Yeah. More than like. Yes. So that's the one that Eve was thinking about. And, you know, she does the research on these things. But it was just... It was very... It was very palatable. It was very pleasing. But it was a little bit like, you know, you'd wanted to buy a very nice...

branded bar of chocolate and you'd ended up being sent a cheap replacement. It was that kind of not quite dirty thing. Anyway, there's a general theme of standards on this podcast today. High, low, falling. Yeah. Yeah.

But it's an interesting concept. I'd like to carry on having the conversation about AR. Oh, God, I would. Well, at least they can't currently recreate this podcast. Yeah, but they wouldn't know. You see, they can because they can just take a sample of our voices. Don't go there because that means we'll live on forever. Long, long into our dosage at the home for the previously infirm impartial. We were going to be at the BBC home for the impartial and infirm. But as you well know, we've now moved into the

The Murdoch home for the more commercially viable. Well, I'm hoping facilities will be of a slightly higher standard. Can we go before we introduce our guest? Can we mention Lauren, please? Yes, let's. Do you have Lauren?

It's where you had it. Right. Oh, my goodness. Yes, this is a lovely one. But also, it's a case of nominative determinant. Yes, I thought that. So, Lauren Flood sent us an email saying, which is entitled, record five baths in a day.

I work from home on a farm in Hampshire where I usually listen to the previous day's podcast on my weekday pre-walk work. I'm always slightly dismayed on a Monday morning when I have to find another podcast to listen to, but all is well on Tuesday morning. Thank you for the detail. Pre-walk. Pre-walk. Pre-walk. Okay. Sorry.

Your chat about... Well spotted. Your chat about baths a few weeks ago really struck a chord with me and I've been meaning to write. And since I absolutely love having a bath and would never live in a property without one, my record is five baths in one day. That's well ahead of me. Isn't it? Congratulations. And probably for the planet. Not brilliant.

To caveat, it was during lockdown and a freezing cold cottage, and I had, you know, feeling bad now. I do, yeah. And I had a very bad flu chest cold, so the oil bus oil infused bath steam helped clear my lungs every few hours and keep me warm. Oh, that's totally different. I take it all back. Yeah, so it was medicinal. Absolutely allowed to. Now, though, I restrict myself to one bath a day. I know this is still excessive, but it's the best way for me to switch off before bed and clear my head of work worries.

Well, Lauren, thank you for emailing us. Do you know what? We would really love to hear from you a bit more about farming, if that's OK, because we're battling, aren't we, with farmers' protests?

This week, it's tomorrow, in fact. And I'm sorry, the battling refers, I think, to our understanding of what it is that's happening within the farming community, because the latest budget has changed the rules on inheritance tax, and there seem to be two very vociferous sides of the argument going on, one saying that it really doesn't affect very many people, so we should all get over ourselves, and there's a black hole, public finances need the money.

And then the other very vociferous side of the argument is saying, look, this is terrible. If you want food security, what you're doing is breaking up the farming industry, really breaking up people's actual land and ability to carry on. And you really do need to backtrack on this very fast because we're all going to go.

very, very hungry in our hellish hand cart. So, Lauren, if you've got anything to add to that argument or you can just tell us about your circumstances and your opinions would be really grateful. I think far too many journalists are in cities and sometimes I worry that the voice of the people of the land really isn't heard enough anymore at all and I just rest that there.

Yeah, no, I agree. And it's an argument that I've been attempting to follow, and I have to say, I mean, one of those often happens with me. I simply decide I support the last opinion I've heard, whichever side it's on, because I'm not a farming person, not from a farming family. I know of people who are farmers, and they are some of them are extremely angry about it.

Equally, I understand that the government could make a pretty persuasive argument that the money's got to come in. And I confess, I don't know about you. I didn't know that they didn't pay inheritance tax. I just didn't know. And apparently they've only had this since 1984. So before then, they did have to pay. But I appreciate God knows. I appreciate farming. It's a tough, tough.

Yeah, tough way of life. But Jane, you know, the farming has one of the highest suicide rates. Oh, God, no, I know. I mean, if any industry... Honestly, I totally agree. And in my local radio days in Herrofiture in Worcestershire, you're absolutely right. The stories of farmers who take their own lives, you would get one every couple of weeks. And it was a very, very real.

I think there are things going on in the agricultural communities that we really don't hear enough about. We don't cover enough. I know that a lot of people, you're not a very big Jeremy Clarkson fan, and I'm not a fan of much of his previous work. But I know that there are so many people within farming who are grateful to him for actually having shone a light on what

running a farm, it's lardly. I also heard at the weekend that there are some farmers who can't stand that. No, definitely. My only point for mentioning it is I think it's very hard to really find out enough facts about farming because the pendulum can swing so much.

So if you're doing strong feelings on both sides, and I'm afraid we need to be a bit more understanding of both sides of the argument. So if you've got anything to contribute to that, then it will be very good here. And also because there are some people listening to this who are, you know, probably they're important people who make policy and stuff. So I think some personal experience can often be incredibly helpful. I mean, there aren't many people who are running the country who are listening to this, but

But some... I was going to say who... who... Power adjacent people. Power adjacent, yes. Okay. Are quite big fans. I'm going to... I'm just writing the name down. We've written a few notes. It was not really in the spirit of the authenticity of the podcast, is it that we're writing or sharing bits and go, oh yes. Yeah. Okay, right. She's unbelievably important though. Well, I don't know. Oh, okay.

Next time I see her, I'll tell her that. So let us know whether you've ever stained a mattress. That's for later.

Right, excellent. Now, I was watching one about witchcraft yesterday, which was absolutely fascinating. The gist of it is, Susanna, women get the blame for everything and they always have disgust.

I mean, it's a fairly good thesis, actually, I think. It seems the case that when we were looking at royal women and the associations between women and witchcraft over time, so often it is when a woman has been considered to be uppity. So she has gone outside her social status. She has not accepted her lot and she has aimed for more and woe to her. So, I mean, all seriousness, the accusations of witchcraft against women

You know, this is generally about women's power, and it's about trying to find a way to suppress her. So you mentioned in that episode a woman called Elizabeth Woodville, who was... I mean, she wasn't poor, or she certainly wasn't a member of any kind of impoverished community, but she wasn't royal and she ensnared a prince.

Yes, so she... She led to all kinds of accusations. Absolutely. So, Ed with the fourth fell for her. Apparently, she saw her under an oak tree, thought she was very beautiful, but that is not enough. It's not enough that she's sort of brilliant and beautiful. That must have bewitched him, because she comes from a relatively lowly, as you say, you know, only a minor noble or a gentry status. And that is not an acceptable person to marry a king.

And so there's very much this feeling that women who rose in such circumstances must have had something else going on. Right. And it's used as a slur against women in the short. And people were out to get in Elizabeth Woodville, weren't they? And they, in the end, they did. Did they? Well, in the end, they were able to discredit her two sons, who are the princes in the tower, and to say that her marriage had been

unlawful and therefore and he'd already been married to someone else and so they had the children were legitimate. So that's fascinating isn't it? Because most of us know about the princes in the tower. We know that they existed. What we don't know is that that story started with suggestions that their mother was a sorceress. It's preposterous isn't it? It really is. And also that episode talked at some length about Scotland and about James I. Now he was a man who he really feared witches didn't he?

Yes, James VI of Scotland first of England, he is the one who writes a book, a demonology about witches. So he becomes convinced that witches have caused storms that have prevented him and his wife coming back from Denmark or have made trouble for them on the way.

And he becomes so obsessed with witches that he personally interrogates an accused witch, and Cordagnes Sampson, and then he later writes this demonology, which tells you how to find a witch, how to exterminate them. I mean, it talks about all sorts of things. It's like he's got the swimming ordeal that we all know about, but also things like glamouring. What's that? You know, the witch or a vampire or something can sort of

cast a spell over you and transfix you, in other words. It talks about werewolves, it talks about fairies. This is written by a reigning monarch. Isn't it extraordinary? And that was when he was only, and I'm using that in speech marks in charge of Scotland, but he went on to be ruler of England as well.

And when he becomes King of England soon after that, an act of parliament makes black magic a capital offence for conjuring the devil, for even sort of not just doing harm with magic, but even making a pact with the devil. OK, now, some of the women targeted were the local wise women. Actually, often midwives, weirdly, because they were women with considerable influence and doing some vital work. But I suppose you could also suggest that their work was a bit magical.

Yes, and there was definitely this kind of slippage between orthodox prayers and spells and between the use of herbs medicinally and something that could look like witchcraft. But it's also that they're moving around between different houses.

But they're not the only ones. You know, we also find just women who are widowed or who are in some way not under the authority of men often being accused of witchcraft or we find poor women who are going to beg at people's houses and being turned away or inadequately helped at a time of need and then mutter something under their breath and then something goes wrong, there are which too. So, you know, it's a broad

Church, as well. So there's that that women got blamed for. Also, the sin of not giving birth to a male heir was something that so many women fell file of this because, strangely, they couldn't conjure up a son as if bi-magic, I think, didn't work that way. One of the things I find really infuriating, this is on my list of Benoit, is when you read a book and it says about a woman failing to give birth to a son, as a failure.

Anyway, as if it's something that can be controlled. I think you don't have any choice, do you? I suppose these days you could, probably, with the intervention of science, ensure that you have a daughter or a son? I don't know, I suppose you... I don't know, this is...

Beyond my, it was a reason for me and it's not in the last five minutes. No, you're sorry. You're asking you, but I think probably there might be some clinics that will claim that they can make that happen for you. But that's pretty hideous. I think you have to go to Mexico. Do you? Okay. That's what Colleen Rooney was alluding to, wasn't it, in one of her Instagram posts that led to the whole Wag of the Christie thing, that she was going abroad in order to try and have a daughter because she had had four sons. Right. Okay. I mean, Henry VIII would have loved to know about that.

I think Henry VIII would have loved Colleen Rooney. It seems to love quite a lot of women. What is the legacy of all of that for the modern royal woman?

I think that, actually, a lot of the ways that we talk about women are rooted in our past. They're rooted in ways that we think that women easily step out of the line, that we start to talk about people, like, making Markle, and back in the day, if you remember, Kate Middleton.

by referring to their social status, their class, and by doing them down. And it's an easy place to go to. When, you know, if you want to belittle a woman, say that she's out of her place, that she's doing something that she should not do. And if we're honest, there's an element... I mean, people, women play along with this as well. We know that women join in with that game of having a go at another woman who's just got a little bit above herself.

Yeah, internalised patriarchy, internalised misogyny. You know, when people say, oh, but it's a woman criticising another woman, it's not misogynistic. And yeah, it is. We've just learnt it too. You know, we've grown up in this water. Right, no, we absolutely have. Are there royal scandals happening right now that our great-grandchildren will be enjoying 100... That's if the world's still in... I mean, you look around at the moment, you can't be certain, but let's hope our great-grandchildren do get to enjoy some royal scandals. Do you get to exist? Yeah, do you get to exist, yeah.

Well, I mean, the wonderful thing about Rawls' candles is it takes a long time for them to come out. The Royal Archives stay shut for a very long time. And it's one of the cases we're looking at in the episode tomorrow was, you know, it came to attention only 80 years after it had happened. What was that one? So we're looking at Edward VIII. You know, obviously we know him from the Wall of Simpson affair, but he hadn't had much earlier during the First World War with a woman called Marguerite Elba, who was a courtesan in Paris. What does that mean?

It basically means a very well-paid sex worker and she had letters from him where he talked about the failures of the Allied strategy during World War I and then they, you know, break up and she's unhappy about it and thankfully marries a very rich man

But goes to a point, they fall out very quickly, and there are shots, and this very rich man dies in the Savoy, and this case comes to trial, and everything has to be done to try and keep Edward's name out of it. Out of it, absolutely. So, you know, so the scandal is, there's basically been a murder, but we've got these royal letters, how do we hush it up? And Andrew Rose, who was the contributor in this section, discovered

that this had been silenced for so long. So the answer to your question is, how would we possibly know now, but ask our great-grandchildren in 100 years' time? I fully intend to do that. I think there are some enormous scandals, aren't there, that we are kind of knowing we're witnessing at the moment, but we can't quite get to the real truth of them. And one of the great things about this country is we have freedom of the press, but also libel laws. So we'll put a stop on that conversation.

Can I just bring in a point from Stuart? Yes, and then I will ask about the chair. Yes, I know you will. Stuart says, I know it didn't fit the narrative. I had to study on Stuart, but Elizabeth Woodville did have the last laugh. Her son became Henry VI and her grandson Henry VIII. Is that true?

Um, well, we've got, we've got, yes, Elizabeth of York. Um, and, uh, so we've, which is the sister of Edward IV. Um, and so she's related by marriage to the, the tutors. So I guess, you know, we've got that connection. Yeah. I mean, not directly.

OK, I mean, I always think Anne Boleyn is written off, you know, you think, oh, poor woman had a head chopped off, and then you realise her daughter was Elizabeth I. So, you know, that's the last laugh. She never knew that. It doesn't make it better for Abilene. No, it doesn't make it better. But it makes it better for feminists. Right, carry on for you. Well, only the chair. I don't want to dwell too much on the chair, but just when we were talking about, you know, what we were going to discuss in the interview before we came on her this afternoon, it's just one of those brilliant details.

What's with the chair and why couldn't you just make love on a normal chair, Susanna?

That's a very good question. I think it's because a normal chair is a little too low. And this is Bertie's sex chair. This is Edward VII's sex chair that he has designed specially in Paris. And it's worth having a look at. It looks a bit like a cross-trainer, but with padding. I think the space on it for about four people, actually. I mean, it's really worth...

Take some consideration. You need to, you know, scrutinise it to figure out who goes where and why. Right, OK. That's too much for me, actually. But I hope everyone's enjoying their hobnobs. Carry off. Well, it's good to know that they were busy with something, I suppose, or maybe not. I mean, I would say it keeps them out of trouble, but I'm not sure we did that. No, it doesn't. They're the opposite, really. That is the problem, isn't it?

Susanna, thank you so much. It is a fascinating series. It's called A History of Royal Scandals. And there's something from way back when, and something much more recent, as illustrated by my colleague's line of questioning there. And Stuart apologises Henry VII, he meant to say, not Henry VIII. Becky says, I think the opening explanation in the new series of Wolf Hall, as in previously on Wolf Hall, said that Anne Berlin had failed to give Henry a son.

I'm not sure that Hilary Mantell would have approved that phrasing, even if Henry saw it that way. That's rather a good point, isn't it? This is your point. Yeah. I don't think Hilary would have approved. I speak as though I knew the woman. I absolutely didn't. I mean, obviously she nailed on genius and I wish I had did know, but I didn't. Becky, thank you and thank you, Susanna.

Professor Susanna Lipscomb and honestly her documentaries are fascinating and they are all available on all four now. Do you think that things would change for women within the Royal Family if actually there was a kind of by-law that said that they had to stay in the profession that they were in before they married into the Royal Family?

because I think some of the difficulties seem to come when the family becomes the work. And that's very rarely good for people. I think Megan would have been happy if she'd stayed acting. Acting, yes, it's a good thought, isn't it? Although I suppose she'd have to have been terribly careful about the role she took, so I'm not sure it would have functioned. But she'll be all right.

Do you think? I mean, I'd say I fell asleep during Wolf Hall last night and I'm not proud of it. But the end was... You weren't watching I was celebrity. Well, I can't get ITB. Oh, OK. So... I was watching Wolf Hall. And the whole episode was just about Thomas Cromwell visiting people and speaking actively words to them. And I just... At one point, he proposed to a nun. I was thinking to get this. What's happening?

And it was, I think I'd just woken up. I think it was a very similar plot, and I'm a celebrity. I think I'd been worn down by making that mushroom bake. Right, OK. Well, I've enjoyed it today. God knows whether anybody else has. Jane and Fi at times.radio.

Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off-Air with Jane and Fi. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app.

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This episode of Offer is brought to you by the new film Conclave, directed by Oscar-winning director Edward Berger and in cinemas on November the 29th. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. It is based on the best-selling book by Robert Harris, which I absolutely loved. And it tells the story of one of the world's most secretive and ancient events, selecting a new Pope.

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