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    414. The Rebirth of the Sacred with John Vervaeke

    By engaging in dialogue with different parts of ourselves, we can gain insight into their functionality and purpose, fostering growth and understanding the normativity that guides them.

    enJanuary 15, 2024

    About this Episode

    Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down in person with Dr. John Vervaeke. They discuss the relationship between your calling and your conscience, the three dimensions of the sacred, how Descartes famous “I think therefore I am” conclusion might be restructured in modern day, what exactly Socrates’s Daemon was, and the bridging of morality and meaning.

     

    John Vervaeke is an Associate Professor in Cognitive Psychology and Cognitive Science at the University of Toronto. His work constructs a bridge between science and spirituality in order to understand the experience of meaningfulness and the cultivation of wisdom so as to afford awakening from the meaning crisis.

     

    This episode was recorded on January 8th, 2023

     

     

    - Links -

     

    For Dr. John Vervaeke:

     

    Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke

     

    After Socrates (Series) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOwjmZx12gk&list=PLND1JCRq8Vuj6q5NP_fXjBzUT1p_qYSCC

     

    The Vervaeke Foundation https://vervaekefoundation.org/

     

    “Zombies in Western Culture: A Twenty-First Century Crisis” (book) https://www.amazon.com/Zombies-Western-Culture-Twenty-First-Century/dp/1783743298

     

    "Mentoring the Machines: Orientation - Part One: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow" (Book) https://www.amazon.com/Mentoring-Machines-Orientation-Artificially-Intelligent/dp/1645010821/ref=sr_1_2?qid=1705353143&refinements=p_27%3AJohn+Vervaeke&s=books&sr=1-2&text=John+Vervaeke 

    🔑 Key Takeaways

    • Dr. John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson aim to rectify the current meaning crisis by bringing back cognitive processes to a place of meaning and rediscovering the sacred through their work and exploration of philosophical traditions.
    • Awakened Demeaning offers users the chance to engage in meditation and courses while exploring the implications of AI technology, fostering learning and reflection in the evolving technological world.
    • Delegating tasks to capable individuals allows for personal growth, a well-run enterprise, and the ability to focus on unique strengths. Hiring the right people and avoiding micromanagement are vital for success.
    • The sacred encompasses the manifestation of a central spirit underlying all existence, emphasizing a profound love and directionality. It involves recognizing the dynamic relationship between calling, conscience, and the role of emotions.
    • Love goes beyond self-centeredness, creating deep bonds and transformative relationships. It aligns with different traditions and leads to a reciprocal opening that acknowledges the incompleteness of fully understanding another person.
    • By being open, reciprocating, and cultivating a sense of calling, we can optimize our psychophysiological function, experience transformative shifts, and tap into healing and growth.
    • Embracing a humble admission of insufficiency and seeking knowledge through thought and prayer can lead to insights and potential solutions, but it is crucial to critically test and evaluate those insights for growth and understanding.
    • By embracing the unknown and letting go of preconceived notions, we can cultivate humility, hope, and resolution, leading to a transformative journey towards deeper knowledge and new possibilities in life.
    • Confronting our mistakes and understanding their root causes is essential for personal growth, leading to profound breakthroughs and a deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us.
    • Prioritize compassion and understanding, and engage in inner dialogue to seek wisdom and understanding. Trust your inner voice while also using critical thinking and rational argumentation.
    • By engaging in dialogue with different parts of ourselves, we can gain insight into their functionality and purpose, fostering growth and understanding the normativity that guides them.
    • Cultivating a relationship with oneself, embracing both finite and transcendent aspects, and having faith in the process leads to personal growth and the realization of our humanity.
    • Prioritizing attention to the ineffable aspects of life, discerning between ideologies and genuine callings, and embracing transformation can empower individuals to fight tyranny and find meaning in existence.
    • By recognizing the value of texts and relationships as pointers, we can move beyond idolatry and connect with a deeper reality, finding meaning in the ultimate instinct.
    • Finding meaning in life involves selflessness, a commitment to the sacred, and recognizing the interconnectedness of our existence.
    • True mental health and happiness come from establishing harmony in relationships and connecting to something beyond ourselves, even in the face of suffering.
    • True wellbeing and meaning in life cannot be achieved by focusing solely on one aspect. A meaningful life requires a balance between sensory motor mastery, moral living, and a sense of connection.
    • Meaningful endeavors can exist outside of duty and morality, and can provide healing and purpose even in difficult circumstances.
    • Evaluating individual circumstances, finding intrinsic meaning, and addressing fundamental problems can be more effective in treating depression than solely focusing on cognitive restructuring. Behavioral techniques and a holistic perspective are also valuable tools in improving mental well-being.

    📝 Podcast Summary

    The Counter Enlightenment and the Rediscovery of Meaning and the Sacred

    Dr. John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson are both working on the counter enlightenment. They aim to bring cognitive processes back to a place of meaning and rediscover the sacred. They believe that the current meaning crisis can be rectified through this rediscovery and new discovery. Dr. Vervaeke plans to go on sabbatical in January 2025 to film his next big series called "Walking the Philosophical Silk Road." This series will explore the shared passageway between the East and West and facilitate a deep dialogue between different philosophical traditions. The Vervaeke Foundation, a non-profit organization, supports Dr. Vervaeke's work by gathering funds and ensuring wider audience access.

    Awakened Demeaning: A Platform for Learning and Reflection in the Technological Landscape

    John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson are working on creating a platform called Awakened Demeaning. This platform offers various practices such as meditation sessions and courses on different subjects. They are also using AI technology to interpret and analyze their work, allowing users to ask questions and generate new paragraphs. However, this brings up interesting questions about plagiarism and citation. Furthermore, Vervaeke has a book called "Mentoring the Machine" where he explores the scientific, philosophical, and spiritual implications of machines. The Vervaeke Foundation supports both academic and public-facing endeavors, aiming to keep Vervaeke grounded and focused. Overall, this collaboration and platform provide opportunities for learning and reflection in an evolving technological landscape.

    Embracing Delegation and Hiring the Right People for Growth.

    Stepping back and allowing others to do things can bring joy and unexpected growth. It is important to hire the right people who can do things faster and better than you can, freeing you up to focus on your unique strengths. This highlights the non-zero sum nature of a well-run enterprise, where there is no shortage of tasks to be done. Additionally, personnel selection and avoiding micromanagement are crucial for success. The conversation also touches on the importance of the Vervaeke Foundation in funding staff and programs, and the significance of the cumulative impact of thinkers' thoughts in shaping the canon. Finally, it is suggested that the ability to handle entropy and assumptions is linked to social status.

    Exploring the complex nature of the sacred

    The concept of the sacred is multifaceted and deeply connected to human experience. According to Jordan Peterson and John Vervaeke's discussion, the sacred can be understood as the manifestation of a central spirit or ultimate entity that underlies all existence. This notion aligns with the idea of ultimacy, which refers to a deeper source or explanation for everything. Additionally, the sacred involves an axiological dimension, emphasizing a profound love and directionality towards this ultimate. It is not merely an intellectual understanding, but also a deeply felt and valued experience. Understanding the sacred also involves recognizing the dynamic relationship between calling and conscience, with positive and negative emotions playing integral roles.

    Love as a Transformative and Liberating Force

    Love, in comparison to mere value, allows for a relationship that goes beyond egocentrism. Love implies a personal commitment and a deep bond between knowing and loving. It involves the whole self without being self-involved. Love gets us on Plato's pivot point, calling for the complete person to be in relationship with what is ultimate. This loving relationship is transformative, healing, redemptive, and liberating. It can be found in non-theistic traditions like Buddhism and Daoism. Love aligns with the Neoplatonic proposal of getting in touch with what is most real, finding the ultimate through asymmetric dependence and unity. Love leads to a reciprocal opening and the realization that some aspects of the other will remain beyond our grasp.

    Discovering the Power of Awareness and Growth

    There is a connection between our inner state and our external experiences. John Vervaeke and Jordan Peterson discuss how being open, reciprocating, and experiencing a sense of calling can lead to a better life overall. They also mention the link between attitude and thriving, emphasizing the importance of optimizing our psychophysiological function. Moreover, they explore the idea of systematicity, both in error and insight. They suggest that systematic insight can lead to a transformative shift in our orientation and perception of the world. They reference various concepts such as baptism, shamanic death and rebirth, and Descartes' exploration of self-consciousness. Overall, the key takeaway is that by cultivating a deep awareness of oneself and the world, we can tap into healing and growth.

    The process of thought and prayer in seeking knowledge and insights, and the importance of testing and scrutinizing those insights.

    The process of thought involves a humble admission of insufficiency, followed by a sincere desire to seek knowledge. This is similar to the act of prayer, where one asks for guidance and understanding. Through this process, revelations or insights can occur, providing potential solutions to our questions or problems. However, it is not enough to simply accept these revelations without scrutiny. We must test these thoughts, examine them from different angles, and evaluate their implications. This testing process is crucial in determining the solidity and validity of our insights. Ultimately, this approach combines faith in the goodness of knowledge with a critical mindset, leading to growth and understanding.

    Embracing Aporia: A Journey towards Transformative Knowledge and Understanding

    John Vervaeke's practice of embracing aporia, of genuinely not knowing, leads to a deep connection with the ineffable depths of knowledge and understanding. This practice allows him to let go of representational reification and open himself up to the transformative power of the unknown. By doing so, he cultivates humility, hope, and a sense of resolution. It is a pilgrimage towards the God beyond God, a constant opening to the mysteries of existence. This process is reflected in the biblical story of Christ's baptism and subsequent journey into the desert, symbolizing a radical transformation of personality and the emergence of a desert emptiness that invites new possibilities.

    Journeying into the Depths of Mistakes for Personal Growth

    Delving into the depths of our mistakes and understanding the underlying reasons behind them is crucial for personal growth and transformation. Similar to Christ going into the desert and the Israelites wandering in the wilderness, this journey into the landscape of our soul allows us to confront our conscience and confront the root causes of our errors. Whether it is Dante's Inferno or the story of Jonah, these narratives highlight the importance of facing our own betrayals, idolatries, and pretentions in order to gain insight and revelation. Through practices like spiritual alchemy, recalling moments of hurt and humiliation can lead to profound breakthroughs and a deep understanding of ourselves and the world around us.

    The Power of Compassion and Connecting with Inner Wisdom

    The story of Jonah and the sailors teaches us about the power of compassion and the pursuit of understanding. Despite Jonah's admission of guilt and the potential for self-righteousness, the sailors exhaust all their efforts to save him. This reminds us of the importance of putting aside judgment and prioritizing human connection. Similarly, the story of Elijah fleeing into the desert and experiencing the presence of God in sheer silence highlights the significance of inner dialogue and introspection. It urges us to engage in a dialogical relationship with our conscience, testing the spirits and seeking understanding. This resonates with the Socratic way of life, where trust in inner wisdom is combined with critical thinking and rational argumentation.

    The Benefits of Dialogical Models in Psychotherapy

    Within the realm of psychotherapy, the use of dialogical models and practices is gaining significant traction. This involves recognizing when we are influenced by certain parts of ourselves and learning to step back into a more sagelike state of awareness. Rather than demonizing these parts, we enter into dialogue with them, realizing that they have adaptive functionality and serve a purpose. Through this dialogue, we aim to understand the normativity that guides these parts and explore opportunities for growth. It is important to note that these entities, which we interact with, are neither entirely subjective nor objective, but rather transjective, binding together our inner and outer worlds.

    Embracing self-correction for personal growth and realizing our humanity.

    Cultivating a relationship with oneself and striving for self-correction is essential for personal growth and realization of our humanity. This process involves embracing both our finite and transcendent aspects, as Socrates portrayed, and holding them in creative tension. It requires a constant openness to self-correction, rejecting self-deception, and having faith in the process rather than fixating on any one supposed truth. This can be seen as the pinnacle of the pyramid of value, represented by the aware attention that allows for continual self-correction. It is about watching and attending without guilt or pride, as Christ and ancient Egyptian theology also imply.

    The Power of Paying Attention and Following One's Calling

    The key to personal growth and transformation lies in paying attention to the highest ineffable aspects of life. Jordan Peterson emphasizes the importance of prioritizing this attention and not succumbing to internal tyranny or being wrong. This process involves listening to the prodding of conscience and discerning between ideological spirits and genuine callings. The story of Moses encountering the burning bush serves as a powerful metaphor for following one's calling and delving into the depths of existence. Through this pursuit, one can become transformed and empowered to fight tyranny and slavery. The concept of the sacred, represented by fire and logos, is also tied to the idea of the inexhaustible fountain of intelligibility.

    The transformative power of texts and deep relationships: A connection to something greater.

    There is something sacred and transformative in our experiences with texts like Plato's Republic and our deep relationships. These encounters open us up to new perspectives and continuously offer us nourishment and growth. However, it is important to acknowledge that these symbols and experiences themselves are not the ultimate truth or the one. They point us towards something greater and should be handled with care to avoid idolatry. By adopting a practice of experiencing ultimacy as sacred, we can strive to move beyond mere representations and connect with the deeper reality and value that exist beyond ourselves. This understanding of meaning as a connection to something greater can be seen as the ultimate instinct.

    Nourishing ourselves and being relevant to others and the world is key to finding meaning in life.

    Finding meaning in life involves nourishing ourselves and turning our focus outward to how we can be relevant to others and the world around us. This includes exploring what we want to exist, even if we don't, and how much of a difference we are making in the present moment. It is not just about self-deception or completing tasks, but rather a calling to a fullness and a sense of religio, experiencing the sacredness that calls us to commit fully. In relation to this, the reality of pain and suffering cannot be denied, and what rectifies pain most effectively is crucial. However, becoming too self-involved and narrow in our focus can lead to misery. Instead, we need to involve our entire psyche and recognize that it is embedded in the whole structure of being.

    The Importance of Relationships and Connection in Mental Health

    Mental health cannot be solely defined by subjective wellbeing or harmony in the individual's internal world. True mental health and happiness stem from establishing a harmony of existence in relationships and connecting to something beyond oneself. This is evident in the transformative experience of parenthood, where subjective wellbeing may decrease, but the sense of meaning and purpose in life significantly increases. It requires faithfulness, sacrifice, and the willingness to contribute to something greater than oneself. The story of Job further emphasizes the importance of maintaining allegiance to what is highest, even in the face of immense suffering. Choosing not to succumb to nihilistic bitterness and maintaining a sense of purpose can prevent one from descending into ultimate despair.

    The Interconnected Dimensions of a Meaningful Life

    True wellbeing and meaning in life cannot be reduced to just one aspect. John Vervaeke's story of the shipwrecked man and the girl he cares for highlights this idea. Despite being in a dire situation, the man finds gratitude for his life and realizes the wonder of the world. This resonates with the biblical story of Job, who gains gratitude for his life even after experiencing immense suffering. It shows that there are three interconnected dimensions to a meaningful life: sensory motor mastery, moral living, and a sense of connection. These dimensions cannot be separated or reduced to each other. Meaning in life requires a balance between these aspects, acknowledging the importance of sensory motor skills, morality, and connections with others.

    The Difference Between Moral and Meaningful Endeavors

    Moral endeavors and meaningful endeavors are interconnected but not synonymous. The example of intellectuals in the Gulag Archipelago conducting seminars while being imprisoned for ideological reasons illustrates this connection. Despite their dire circumstances, they found meaning in sharing their knowledge and passion. While their situation may not have been morally just, their actions were morally driven. On the other hand, meaningful endeavors can exist outside the realm of duty and morality. The pursuit of love, gratitude, and connectedness can generate meaning in life, even in the absence of a logical argument for a just world. Therefore, experiences that foster meaning can be powerful healing factors, surpassing the cognitive approach in certain contexts.

    Understanding the complexities of depression and its underlying causes.

    Depression can have different underlying causes. Jordan Peterson highlights the importance of evaluating a person's life circumstances before jumping to conclusions about their mental health. For some individuals, depression may stem from a lack of meaning, purpose, and social connections. In these cases, addressing the person's fundamental problems, such as helping them build relationships and finding intrinsic meaning, can be more effective than solely focusing on cognitive restructuring. Behavioral techniques, like tracking moods and identifying patterns, can also be powerful tools in understanding and improving mental well-being. By recognizing the embodied, embedded, and acted nature of cognition, we can approach mental health from a more holistic perspective.

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    442. BILL C-63 - Everything You Need to Know | Bruce Pardy & Konstantin Kisin

    Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down in-person with Canadian lawyer Bruce Pardy and podcaster Konstantin Kisin. They discuss Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s Bill C-63 (aka The Online Harms Act), what powers it gives to the government, what rights it strips from citizens, and why even Americans should be concerned.


    Bruce Pardy is executive director of Rights Probe, a law and liberty thinktank, and professor of law at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. He is a lawyer, academic, columnist, and outspoken critic of the illiberal managerial state, fighting at the front lines of the culture war inside the law. Bruce writes for the National Post, Epoch Times, and the Brownstone Institute, among others, and serves as senior fellow at the Fraser Institute, the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, and the Frontier Centre for Public Policy. He has taught at law schools in Canada, the United States and New Zealand, practiced civil litigation in Toronto, and served as adjudicator and mediator on the Ontario Environmental Tribunal. The legal ground, Bruce has written, is shifting beneath our feet. The individual is losing to the collective. An ever-expanding bureaucracy regulates life from cradle to grave, including private behavior and speech, in the name of common good. The law has become discretionary, arbitrary, and unequal. The end of Western liberal civilization, as we have known it, is conceivable.
     

    Konstantin Kisin is a Russian-British satirist, social commentator, and co-host of the TRIGGERnometry Youtube show. He is also the author of “An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West,” a Sunday Times bestseller. He has written for several publications, including Quillette, The Spectator, The Daily Telegraph, and Standpoint, on issues relating to tech censorship, woke culture, comedy, and other topics, but he currently publishes articles on his popular Substack. Kisin made headlines in 2018 when he refused to sign a "safe space contract" to perform comedy at a British college and again in 2023 when he participated in an Oxford Union debate on the motion of "This House Believes Woke Culture Has Gone Too Far." His speech at the debate received viral attention and has been seen by over 100 million people around the world.

     


     

    - Links -

    2024 tour details can be found here https://jordanbpeterson.com/events   

    Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com/  

     

    For Bruce Pardy:

    On X https://twitter.com/pardybruce?lang=en

    Rights Probe: https://www.rightsprobe.org/


    For Konstantin Kisin:

    TRIGGERnometry Podcast    / @triggerpod  

    Substack https://konstantinkisin.substack.com/

    Twitter https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin?r...

    441. TBD | Tor Nørretranders

    441. TBD | Tor Nørretranders

    Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with author and speaker Tor Nørretranders. They discuss the entropy of emotion, the nature of pointlessness, the over-civilization of societal structures, how relationships shape perception, and why play might be the antithesis to tyranny.

     

    Tor Nørretranders is an independent author, thinker and speaker based in Denmark, serving an international audience. He has published over 30 books on topics ranging from society to human consciousness.

     

     

    - Links -

     

    2024 tour details can be found here https://jordanbpeterson.com/events  

     

    Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com/  

     

     

    For Tor Nørretranders:

     

    The User Illusion:

    https://www.amazon.com/User-Illusion-Cutting-Consciousness-Penguin/dp/0140230122

     

    The Generous Man:

    https://www.amazon.com/Generous-Man-Helping-Others-Sexiest/dp/B005SNMU4I

     

    Wild food and agriculture:

    https://madfeed.co/video/from-wild-to-tame-and-back-again/

    https://madfeed.co/video/we-are-here-because-we-have-appetite/

    https://madfeed.co/video/whos-got-the-guts/

     

    Website https://www.tor.dk/

     

    Article “We Are Waking Up” : https://www.tor.dk/2019/05/06/we-are-waking-up/