Protecting Democracy: Barton Gellman is leading efforts to protect democracy through war games simulating responses to potential authoritarian threats at the Brennan Center for Justice, moving from writing about dangers to taking action.
Barton Gellman, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, has moved from writing about democracy's threats to actively working to protect it. At the Brennan Center for Justice, he has led an initiative called the Democracy Futures Project, which ran war games to simulate responses to a potential authoritarian president. These exercises included various former officials and society leaders, testing how they would react to an authoritarian leader and what measures they could take together to safeguard democracy. This method aimed to prepare for possible scenarios and highlight the importance of collaboration in defending democratic values.
Power Dynamics: JFK's handling of the National Guard illustrates the fragility of political norms versus laws. Strong leadership is essential to safeguard against authoritarianism. Vulnerabilities arise when officials neglect their duties or support corrupt power. A resilient system depends on both understanding authority and a commitment to integrity.
JFK's involvement in bringing in the National Guard during conflicts in the South highlights the complexities of state and federal powers. The conversation emphasizes that, while laws exist, many protections against authoritarianism rely on norms and the willingness of leaders to act with integrity. This reliance on norms can leave systems vulnerable when those norms are ignored. Throughout history, governors, judges, and other officials have played crucial roles in checking federal power, but their actions depend on understanding their authority and not being influenced by aspiring autocrats. Past experiences with political figures indicate that individuals often enjoy exploring the darker sides of power, revealing that a robust political system needs more than just laws; it requires good people committed to following ethical norms.
Resisting Overreach: Some officials resisted Trump's overreach, demonstrating the need for strong local governance to preserve the rule of law against potential abuses by the presidency.
During the Trump presidency, some people in the government showed great integrity by refusing to follow orders that violated laws and ethical standards, such as certifying the election results honestly. However, the system lacks clear laws to prevent an overreaching president from abusing power. Local officials can play a crucial role in maintaining the rule of law by being prepared to resist federal overreach and standing up against any authority that tries to bypass legal procedures. This highlights the importance of having principled individuals who are willing to uphold democratic values, even in challenging situations, to mitigate the impact of authoritarian actions.
Election Integrity Concerns: State courts might resist federal data demands, as groups plan for potential authoritarian actions. Concerns around election integrity spur debates on voter ID laws, which critics claim aim to suppress votes rather than ensure fair elections.
State courts may have the power to limit federal demands for data, especially concerning immigration issues. Amid concerns regarding a potential authoritarian regime, institutions like the Brennan Center are planning how to protect democracy. Some right-wing groups raise questions about election integrity, advocating for voter ID laws. Critics argue these measures are often aimed at disenfranchising voters, with the notion that safeguards against election theft mainly serve to secure power for one side. Voter ID laws are supported by some because identification is required for many activities, but the scope and intention behind these laws are questioned, particularly how they may affect voter participation.
Voting Access: Voter ID laws often target non-existent problems and disenfranchise citizens, especially minorities. Instead of suppressing voting, efforts should focus on making participation easier and promoting an inclusive democratic culture.
Proposals to require identification for voting, like birth certificates or passports, are intended to address a problem that doesn't exist—non-citizens voting. In reality, such requirements disproportionately disenfranchise citizens, especially poorer individuals and racial minorities, while doing little to guarantee security. Instead of making voting harder, efforts should focus on creating a democratic culture where citizens are encouraged and able to participate in elections. Simplifying voter registration and ID acquisition could ensure that everyone eligible can vote, rather than allowing partisan motivations to reduce voter turnout. Evidence suggests these laws often aim to suppress votes from demographics likely to support Democrats. A fairer approach is needed to allow greater access to the voting process for all citizens, making it easier rather than harder to register and vote.
Election Integrity: Election integrity is under threat from political influence in swing states. Activists are working against these changes, but the upcoming elections could lead to disputes, unless resolved through a clear victory.
Election integrity is currently facing serious threats, particularly in swing states like Georgia, where political influence over the certification of election results is increasing. Individuals who deny previous election outcomes are gaining power on election boards, allowing them to potentially delay results or overturn votes. Democratic legal groups, like the Brennan Center, are actively opposing these changes through lobbying and litigation. As the upcoming elections approach, there is concern over how these power shifts could lead to chaos and undermine the democratic process. A clear victory in the elections, whether by Kamala Harris or Donald Trump, might lessen these concerns around disputes and unrest, but the risks remain high regardless of the outcome.
Election Legitimacy: Narrow election outcomes can trigger doubts about legitimacy from supporters of both candidates, fostering distrust in the system.
Close elections can lead to significant controversies regarding their legitimacy, regardless of who wins. If the result is very narrow, supporters on both sides may not accept the outcome, leading to challenges about cheating or misconduct. This skepticism has been particularly strong among Trump's followers, but Democrats might also question the results if Harris loses. In such close races, the mood of the country is important, as both sides might feel that their candidate was unfairly treated. The idea of a clear victory can alleviate these concerns, but narrow margins can create deep divisions and distrust in the electoral process.
#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy
Making Sense with Sam Harris
412 Episodes
Recent Episodes from Making Sense with Sam Harris
#386 — Information & Social Order
Sam Harris speaks with Yuval Noah Harari about his new book, Nexus, and its application to current crises. They discuss humanity’s capacity for self-destruction, democracy and dictatorship as information networks, the “naive view of information,” the advantages of fiction over truth, trust in institutions, self-correction in a democracy, truth vs. power, truth vs. order, the suicide of conservatism, fixing social media, algorithms as editorial choices, efficiency vs. inefficiency, threats to democracy, the authoritarian character of Trump’s candidacy, the need for patriotism and nationalism, Israeli politics, the peaceful transfer of power, Putin and the war in Ukraine, the vulnerability of world order, the killing of Hassan Nasrallah, antisemitism and anti-colonialism, religious fanaticism among Israelis, the status of Arabs in Israeli society, biblical and post-biblical Judaism, whether a wider war in the Middle East is necessary, the danger of spirituality without ethics, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#385 — AI Utopia
Sam Harris speaks with Nick Bostrom about ongoing progress in artificial intelligence. They discuss the twin concerns about the failure of alignment and the failure to make progress, why smart people don’t perceive the risk of superintelligent AI, the governance risk, path dependence and "knotty problems," the idea of a solved world, Keynes’s predictions about human productivity, the uncanny valley of utopia, the replacement of human labor and other activities, meaning and purpose, digital isolation and plugging into something like the Matrix, pure hedonism, the asymmetry between pleasure and pain, increasingly subtle distinctions in experience, artificial purpose, altering human values at the level of the brain, ethical changes in the absence of extreme suffering, our cosmic endowment, longtermism, problems with consequentialism, the ethical conundrum of dealing with small probabilities of large outcomes, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#384 — Stress Testing Our Democracy
Sam Harris speaks with Barton Gellman about election integrity and the safeguarding of American democracy. They discuss the war games he's run to test our response to an authoritarian president, using federal troops against American citizens, the difference between laws and norms, state powers to resist the federal government, voter identification and election integrity, political control over election certifications, the Bush-Gore election, the Electoral Count Reform Act, the prospect of public unrest after the November election, January 6th, George Soros, the "good people on both sides" calumny against Trump, what happens to Trump and Trumpism if Harris wins in November, the presidential debate with Harris, the authoritarian potential of a second Trump term, Project 2025, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#383 — Where Are the Grown-Ups?
Sam Harris talks about the recent assassination attempt on Donald Trump, the cesspool of X, Tucker Carlson’s conversation with Darryl Cooper, freedom of speech, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#382 — The Eye of Nature
Sam Harris speaks with Richard Dawkins about his new book The Genetic Book of the Dead, the genome as a palimpsest, what scientists of the future may do with genetic information, genotypes and phenotypes, embryology and epigenetics, why the Lamarckian theory of acquired characteristics couldn't be true, how environmental selection pressure works, why evolution is hard to think about, human dependence on material culture, the future of genetic enhancement of human beings, viral DNA, symbiotic bacteria, AI and the future of scholarship, resurrecting extinct species, the problem of free speech in the UK, the problem of political Islam and antisemitism in the UK, reflections on Dan Dennett, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#381 — Delusions, Right and Left
Sam Harris speaks with “Destiny” (Steven Bonnell) about politics and public debate. They discuss how he approaches debate, “Trump derangement syndrome,” January 6th, why Trump’s norm violations don’t matter to many people, misadventures on the information landscape, social media and the problem of being too online, Islam and conflict in the Middle East, the difference between the far left and the far right, the lack of sane conservative policies to counterbalance the left, whether the pendulum is swinging back on the left, the ethics and politics of apology, private friendships and public disagreements, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#380 — The Roots of Attention
Sam Harris speaks with Amishi Jha about attention and the brain. They discuss how attention is studied, the failure of brain-training games, the relationship between attention and awareness, mindfulness as an intrinsic mental capacity, the neurological implications of different types of meditation, the neural correlates of attention and distraction, the prospects of self-transcendence, the link between thought and emotion, the difference between dualistic and nondualistic mindfulness, studying nondual awareness in the lab, the influence of smartphones, the value of mind wandering, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#379 — Regulating Artificial Intelligence
Sam Harris speaks with Yoshua Bengio and Scott Wiener about AI risk and the new bill introduced in California intended to mitigate it. They discuss the controversy over regulating AI and the assumptions that lead people to discount the danger of an AI arms race.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#378 — Digital Delusions
Sam Harris speaks with Renée DiResta about the state of our information landscape. They discuss the difference between influence and propaganda, shifts in communication technology, influencers and closed communities, the asymmetry of passion online and the illusion of consensus, the unwillingness to criticize one's own side, audience capture, what we should have learned from the Covid pandemic, what is unique about vaccines, Renée's work at the Stanford Internet Observatory, her experience of being smeared by Michael Shellenberger and Matt Taibbi, Elon Musk and the Twitter files, the false analogy of social media as a digital public square, the imagined "censorship-industrial complex," the 2024 presidential election, and other topics.
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.
#377 — The Future of Psychedelic Medicine 2
Sam Harris speaks with Dr. Jennifer Mitchell and Dr. Sarah Abedi about recent developments in research on psychedelics. They discuss the history of this research and the war on drugs, recent setbacks in the FDA approval process, MDMA as a treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), the challenges of conducting this research, allegations of therapist misconduct, new therapeutic models for mental health treatment, psychoneuroimmunology, "non-psychedelic" psychedelics, good and bad trips, the FDA's coming decision on MDMA-assisted therapy, "right-to-try" policies for pharmaceuticals, the role of psychedelic therapists, the problem of having all this therapeutic work being done underground, and other topics.
Petition to approve MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: https://www.approvemdmatherapy.com/
If the Making Sense podcast logo in your player is BLACK, you can SUBSCRIBE to gain access to all full-length episodes at samharris.org/subscribe.
Learning how to train your mind is the single greatest investment you can make in life. That’s why Sam Harris created the Waking Up app. From rational mindfulness practice to lessons on some of life’s most important topics, join Sam as he demystifies the practice of meditation and explores the theory behind it.