142. Should I Really Be No Contact?

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Welcome back to another episode of Insight Today. It's just me and I am talking to Hannah. Hannah got in touch because she wanted to talk about going low contact and then no contact with her parents and understanding whether or not she is perceiving things correctly and whether or not she's making the right choices around her decision.

to go no contact. Hannah, is that kind of right? That is, that's right. I am now no contact. This isn't necessarily through my own choice. It has been my parents' choice too.

The conversation was left very open ended. Maybe we'll regroup in a few days and try and move forwards. And then I've heard nothing. Oh, okay. Since then. It's tough.

that I think it's it's very probably for the better because I get very emotionally dysregulated during conversations that are confrontational and they tend to be with me parents specifically me mom it's very very confrontational and

and struggle to put things together, I struggle to come up with what I want to say. It very much feels as if

there's an attack around the defence. I mean, it sounds like that might be actually what's happening. If you're not being given space to explain yourself and you're not given space to collect your thoughts. There isn't usually any space for me to have an outlet. It all tends to be quite one-sided.

And I realised that that's something that has been in place since childhood. Right. Anytime I did voice an opinion, voice that something was unfair, it was always closed down. It was you being cheeky, you being selfish.

or it would then go into a tangent of everything you've ever done in your life that's wrong. Wow. Yeah. And that, that was just, that was just normal. That's just the way it was and the way my mom was. And it became a case where I would just sit

silently through one of these situations, not agree with anything that was said just to almost throw out a burn it out.

Mm-hmm. And then you knew eventually it would come to an end that'd probably be silence for most of the day of the afternoon. And then on a night time, it might be the case that nothing had happened or I've said what I've had to say. So you need to go away and think about that and and we'll move on from there. Goodness me. Okay. That's all. I mean, all for Hannah that you

As a child, working out that the safest thing for you to do is to just sit and take it. Just let her rant at you and scream at you and tell you all these terrible things about yourself.

And then for her to say, well, I've said what I've said, I've had enough now. And then almost get over it, like. Yeah. Yeah. And how did that used to make you feel? Even as an adult, the two instances that have actually had me opinion, I mean, mid 30s now, one of them was this year. Right. And the other one was in me late 20s. Right.

They've both resulted in no contact. I've openly admitted the last lot of confrontation. It was me, Dad, that was the mediator between us. Right. I felt like I had nothing to leave, so I just laid everything on the table. Right. And said, I'm absolutely terrified of her, which is very confronting. So hang on, sorry, confronting for who, you or him? The mate.

Yeah, for me to realise that even as an adult I hide so many parts of who I am because I'm frightened of the rejection of who I am.

Yeah, yeah, okay. And of course, because you've learnt that any time you show who you are, all you get is berated and slammed and shamed and humiliated and silenced and like completely rejected. But I just, there's something I want to go back to that you said, which I thought was really interesting, is that the two occasions that you've stood up for yourself have resulted in no contact.

But when we started, you described it as them not contacting you. Is that right? Yeah. So both times it's been them not contacting you. Yes. The first time I had a relationship breakdown and had to live back with my parents. Right. I'd gone from being in an abusive relationship, like narcissistically abusive relationship.

to then having to move home back into the situation and it was when I met my now husband, me, my mum took an instant dislike to him. She says it came from a place of concern because she thought I was moving on too quickly.

right six months in a living back at all. It was my birthday and he sent flowers to us and I came on for work and my mum was saying what this I thought I told you not to see him anymore and she said

you have to pick it's either me or him and I said I can't do that and it's unfair for you to ask us to do that and she said right well get out of the house okay so I'm genuinely just horrified

I mean, unfortunately, it's not unfamiliar, but also every time it still shocks me how disgraceful that is as a parent to do that to your child to put them in that position. But secondly, because, well, I'll come back to that. No, I won't. I'm going to say it now. If she was genuinely concerned, Hannah, that he was not the right person for you, or that there was something dodgy going on,

She wouldn't be putting you out to the point where that's the person that I want to live with. Yeah, exactly. It's not logical in any way, shape or form. And what it shows and reveals is that she was demanding you prioritize her above both yourself and him and that her needs are more important and her opinions are more valuable and that you all refusal to comply

will cost you the relationship with her.

But it's nothing to do with, I'm fearful that this is you moving on too quickly or this, that what I actually suspect is that she was intensely threatened by him. And what he might be able to do for you, whether he saw through her behavior, whether he was calling it out or privately to you or even in front of them, she didn't want you in a non kind of abusive situation where she might be exposed.

But I also want to reflect to you. You didn't go no contact. They discarded you. There's a very big difference. Yeah. And I wonder what that feels like to hear me say. Oh, it's a mix of emotions because it's not unfamiliar. It isn't an unfamiliar pattern of behaviour, but to hear it described as

me being discarded rather than me being stubborn, too stubborn, too selfish, not prepared to listen, not prepared to cooperate, hearing it, being called, discard. I've heard you say that to other people and I've never, ever thought about that for me.

Yes. So you've always taken responsibility for the breakdown in the relationship. I feel like I've always done this. So you're to blame. It's your fault. You're the bad one. Yes. And is that now part of it is, is that now I'm looking through things?

Is it I'm looking through things as a negative? I'm looking through a negative lens rather than a positive and the things that I've started to come back from childhood. I have a daughter and she's she's in primary skill. And when I think about the things that I've been done in my life at her age,

I just think I would never do any of, I couldn't imagine it. These big adult emotions were projected onto us from such a young age. And I've always grown up with that being narrative. But am I seeing things now because I want to see them, because I want to justify what I've done and

what I've said in my part in this, am I trying to negate responsibility because it'll be easier for me to live with? Okay, so are you creating a narrative that paints you in a positive light but then in the negative and so therefore you don't have to take any responsibility? Yes. Right. Okay, what is it that you think is your part?

the part of hiding, hiding who I am. And I mean, I'm saying, hiding who I am, I don't have any big secrets. It's just a case of if I was ever in any distress, there would be the last to know when I was pregnant, I waited until I was 10 weeks in, because I knew it would become

Just this rollercoaster, particularly my mum, what my mum thought I should and should not be doing. It would just run away. My dad's openly said that I'm a liar because I haven't been honest about things like

the plan, the wedding that we had, we wanted a small wedding which we did have but our vision and their vision was totally different. Wait so where did you lie? We ended up having wedding cars and things like that and I hadn't wondered that but I didn't see it outright. I don't want this. Okay I'm gonna reflect this back to you because

What I'm hearing you say to me is that my part is I wasn't honest with my feelings. I didn't share with them how I really felt about how they behave towards me or might behave towards me or where they demanded something and I didn't say no loudly enough for them to listen.

And I then want to hear that part and then want you to look at the two times that you have been honest and you have said what you feel or think and you have claimed your autonomy. What happened?

discard right so if they if the and as a child you learned there was no point to share your feelings or thoughts because it just prolonged the duration and the shouting and the screaming and the humiliation and the shaming and the rejection and was followed by stonewalling as well so

Where in this part is it your fault that you're not safe to share your feelings in this dynamic? Where is that? Your fault. In the cold light of day, it isn't. What could I have made more of an effort? Should I have made more of an effort to at least try? I remember writing a letter for my mum

around the time that I met my now husband and being quite vulnerable in it and hoping that that would somehow bridge a gap but it was a case of well why can't you say this to me face and then it descended into you just you wrote us that letter to try and justify your behaviour to justify what you've done and it just didn't really work. So you wrote her letter saying how you felt

And instead of her saying, what, what am I doing? That means you can't say this to my face. It becomes an attack on you of why didn't you say this to my face? Yeah. And then was followed with more of an attack. Yeah.

Okay, so let's go back to in the cold light of day. You say, could I have tried more? Could I have put more effort in? And I'm curious to know where you could have tried harder. Probably couldn't. Yeah. Maybe I've held on to something for so long because I felt like a hadou. I wonder how it helps you to blame yourself. What does it do for you? Ooh.

That's tricky. I know. For sneaky little question, that one. And the thing is to know about this, and you know, is that everything that we do, every behaviour, coping mechanism, every single thing we do, whether it's things like not revealing our true selves, whether it's blaming ourselves, whether it's

drinking too much or eating too much or too little or whatever it is. All of those things, even though they on the surface look like they don't help us, they do. We are doing them because there is a gain in it. So then we have to look underneath it of what is this protecting me from? And so if I go back and ask you that again, what is blaming yourself, protecting you from?

I'm still, I'm probably still holding on to a little bit of hope that there is some resolution. I'm also really, really scared that I sit in a victim space. Okay. That's been a narrative that I've been told. You love to play the victim, you love to be the victim in any situation. And by taking

some responsibility on, that means that I'm accountable, that I'm not just sitting wanting everybody to feel sorry for is, wanting everybody to pity me for whatever the situation is. That's the bit that scares us the most, am I going to end up annoying them because I'm going to be sat in a victim space where

I can't move forward. You know, is this all Hannah ever wants to talk about? There's something very sad about that because it sounds like I have to pretend I'm okay to be accepted by everyone. Is that right? I suppose that my perception, friends and my husband, I could go to with the worst thing in the world and

know that I would be supported, but it's almost as if. One conversation and I have to be done. Maybe that's something that I'm carrying because that was the way it was at home. So is that coming from them or from you?

that one conversation, but that would probably come from maybe conditioning. If you had a problem, you could, it would be talked about, and when I say talked about, it would be, depending on my mom's reaction, it might go up and out, and then it would be swept under the rug. You won't really need to talk about it anymore.

Unless she wanted to talk about it. Okay. So you're only allowed to talk about stuff that bothers you once and then it's ignored. Yes. Unless someone else brings it up. Yes. And then you're allowed to talk about it again. Yes. And so if you want to talk about it more than once, that then makes you a victim and self-pitying and sympathy-seeking attention-seeking even. Banan. Yeah. Yeah, big nod. Okay. So

It's something very interesting about the victim space because that, you know, I'm just going to, what do you understand that to mean the victim space? Sitting in self-pity, not allowing yourself to move forward because you're defining yourself by tragedy or trauma. Okay. So there's one bit of that that I'm going to just say, let's put it over here. And that's the self-pity bit.

The rest of it, yeah. So it's the place where we are stuck by what's happened to us. But we use it as disempowerment and a reason and a justification to not move. I'm not able to do this. I can't do this. It's I'm disempowered by this thing. However, there is a caveat with that in terms of that self-pity bit in that when bad things happen to us, we're allowed to feel sad for ourselves. We're allowed to sit in that space.

You know, if you lose your job, you can sit and go, Jesus, this is shit. This is really awful. Oh my God. I can't believe this is happening to me. We can cry. We can be frustrated. We can feel defeated by it. And then eventually after we've sat with those feelings, maybe talked about it, maybe processed it a bit, had a good cry, we go, okay, what am I going to do about it?

And we take charge and we go, well, I'm going to have to look for a job. The victim sits in that place and goes, oh, I can't look for a job. It's too overwhelming. It's too much. I can't. I just can't do it. And then, and what they do is demand that other people rescue them. And so that someone else would then come in and go, oh, my God, I'll do this. I'll find you job, you know, adverts and whatever. Okay.

That's not to say that someone who's had something bad can't ask for help, but it's help not rescuing. And there's a very big difference. Your fear of being the victim is really kind of paralyzing you in terms of connection with others because I wonder if that fear stops you having to reveal yourself and your true feelings.

And that's how it helps you. Yeah. Yeah. What's that? You've got a right little smile and no wonder what's happening. That would be true. I would describe myself as very paradoxical and sit, give advice, be really open and honest with.

a lot of how I see things and solution focused to go in over is very, very, very difficult because it's just this ball of where's the problem? What do I feel? How do I feel? What are people going to think about how you feel? I've had depression, problems with depression and anxiety since half of my life.

I was first diagnosed when I was 17 and it was a case of it was

Just close it down, don't discuss it with anybody because they'll think, other people will think that you want sympathy. So I feel like everything just, I just push and push and push and push down. And up until this year, I probably wasn't, I couldn't tell you why I was depressed. Really cool. It wasn't situational, it was, I just feel very sad a lot of the time. Okay. When

You say it was, you know, don't talk to anyone, don't tell them what they just think you're of to sympathy. Who was that coming from? You or someone else? That was coming from my parents and me brother.

Lovely. So you're coping with depression. Sorry, I shouldn't be flippant. Should I? It's ridiculous. You're a parent. Imagine your daughter came to you and said, Mommy, I've got depression. What would you do? Coddler. Right. Oh, I'd just coddler. Right. You'd love her. You would reassure her. You would ask her what she needs. You would keep her safe. Yeah.

It's revolting that they abandoned you with that. I was so afraid of them finding out initially that I'd been diagnosed with depression because I'd made the doctor's appointment myself and went myself. That obviously I'd been lying about where I'd been. This lying narrative is

utter bullshit sorry i'm just okay we'll talk about it and say go on carry on see you've gone on your own yeah i'd taken the medication out of the box and put it in my bedside table and then over the course of a couple of days i came out and i said i've been diagnosed as being depressed my mum said oh we we did notice that there was something going on with you um you've been sleeping a lot i would just thought you were maybe taking drugs

Wait, what? Sorry. Okay, Carrie, I'm sorry. What? Then when I went to college, my mum and my brother searched me room and found the tablet and my bedside drawer. And because they weren't in a box, said that I must have bought them from somebody. Are you actually kidding me? No.

So hang on a minute. So they thought they noticed you're tired. Can you just hear this for a second? This is obscene. They saw that you were tired and that your behavior was different and they thought, what's going on? And waited for you to leave the house. Ran sack to your room, found the pills, assumed that you had bought them and were on drugs.

but didn't say a word. They'd assumed I was on drugs before I disclosed that I had depression. Right. They thought that that's why my behaviour had changed. And then I told them that I was depressed, I'd been given medication and showed them the medication. And then the date after that, my mum and my brother went through my bedroom looking for, I'm not quite sure what they were looking for.

Where, at what point did they think you were on drugs and before they, before the medication or before? Before the medication. Yeah. Before I was, I was given medication that put me behavior changes down to, I was obviously just experimenting with, with drugs and that's why my behavior had changed. And when did they tell you that that's what they had thought? When I disclosed that I was depressed. So not until you said I've got to present. Yeah. So they, they were sitting there letting you do drugs.

And then I didn't do that. Okay. But in their mind, you're, you're experimenting. And they don't think maybe we should check this out and have a conversation, find out what's going on. Then you disclose voluntarily that you've been diagnosed with depression and put on these pills. And then they run saculium.

Yes, yeah. But then, even though you've just told them that you've been diagnosed and been given the medication, they find the pills and then assume that you've bought those rather than being prescribed them. Yes, yes. So they really wanted to believe that you were on drugs.

Yeah, I think that would have maybe been more palatable than a 17-year-old with depression. And the narrative for quite a while became that it was all just a state of mind. My brother and my mom were very, very close. They're now estranged, right? But it became depression. There's no such thing. You should get out more. It's because you've made decisions in your life that are wrong and you're not happy with.

Are you a 17? That's why you depress. 17. Yeah, and trying to help them help me parents through pending potential divorce. They're still together, but it was the second time that they nearly got divorced and it was quite a volatile household. Okay.

You said to me before when you were diagnosed with depression, I think you said something about it being, and you'll have to remind me, because you said it's something about it being situational, or not being situational, and that you were, what would go, just could you say it again, what you said? Do you know when someone says, well, what have you got to be depressed about? There wasn't necessarily a, I understand it a little bit more now, because I've been hiding so much of myself.

But I couldn't, there hadn't been a trauma, there hadn't been an incident that I was trying to get through or get beyond. It was just an overwhelming sadness that followed us about no matter what what I did. And sometimes it would improve.

but it wasn't necessarily because I was doing something different in my life, it was just, it would improve and I was referred to the, it was like the young adults or the children's mental health services for an assessment with a, I think it was a, I don't know whether it was a psychiatrist and

before I went in, my mum was like, well, what are you going to talk about? How terrible your life is? And then I remember going in and just talking about how I was fine. Oh yeah, I feel a lot better now. Yeah, I feel great. And until this year, anytime I've tried to do counselling or talk therapy, I want the person to think that I'm a nice person. And that I'm all right.

And that I realised that my problems aren't the worst problems in the world. So put on a front, put on a mask. And again, until this year, I didn't realise how much I'm asked. I'm going to challenge a lot of that narrative, if I may, because

And if you want to take any of this out, we absolutely can. But first of all, what your mother said to you was disgusting. What have you got to be depressed about? Your environment.

Yeah. There's a big misconception about depression that it comes on for no reason. It's not true. It's a reaction to your environment. And often we will see that when people are removed from the toxic environment, the depression lifts. And I'm really interested to know, and you can answer this in a moment, but to know whether or not when you think back of the places where it improved,

You said nothing was different, but I wonder how exposed you were to their behaviour at that point. I would have still been living at home, but maybe it was a calmer period of time. Right. So, what you're saying to me is...

that your environment was impacting your mental health, as it does, as it would. And a 17-year-old who comes with and presents with depression, I'm immediately looking at their childhood and their trauma history. And you said, I've got no big trauma, no big incidents, but you've described an awful lot of trauma to me, that being screamed and shouted at by a parent and then stonewalled emotionally abandoned whenever you

I say something back or even if you don't, that's trauma. That is traumatic to a child. What we're talking about then is you're not feeling safe and a child who doesn't feel safe develops anxiety and then gets sad because they don't have anywhere they feel safe, where they feel safe to be accepted, where they feel valued, wanted, loved. So if I put it in those terms,

Because what I'm hearing you say is it's my fault I had depression. Yeah. And what I'm hearing them say is that too and or that you don't really. And what I would like to challenge is the idea that your depression was an absolutely healthy response to your environment and your life experiences. And I wonder what that feels like to hear.

It feels validating because I understand that now the journey that I've been on in the past few months, I've noticed a huge shift in how I feel about myself since having my daughter had massive body confidence issues.

And now realise that they weren't my issues. Okay. That wasn't me. Yes, I'm bigger than I was before I had a child. But really, should it? Should it bother us this much? Should it hold us back? But I would hear me wait, being talked about it, family events, discussed with other people. Now I just think I've had a child. I'm in my mid 30s. Your body ebbs and flows. And who knows? Down the line.

I might change completely one way or the other again. But it isn't something that I should internalize and feel shameful. The amount of things that I've done that I wouldn't necessarily have have dared as an adult. I wouldn't have dared do.

with my parents and my life getting tattoos that are visible because that was shamed and I feel so much more peace in me, in myself, in who I am. Where's the depression these days? How glad is that?

I struggle with the change of the seasons and I have a few, I've got fibromyalgia, I'm hypermobile, so I struggle with pain quite a lot. But yeah, out on the whole I would say I'm probably, and I've been saying it a few, well I'm probably mentally the most healthy that I've been in a very, very long time. So when you've not had a relationship or not had your parents in your life,

I mean, that's massive, that contrast of, without them in your life, A, you've had autonomy and freedom, but B, mentally, you're feeling healthier than you've ever felt. Yeah, there's that little niggle in my brain that goes, is this just you trying to justify the way that you behave in by pretending that you're happy? Whose voice is that? That would be me, Mum's. Okay. So you're justifying

What is it the way you're behaving? What does that mean? The way you're behaving? The way that I'm behaving by not getting back in touch, even though I personally don't feel like that's my responsibility now. I would have done before listening to the podcast and reading the book. The last conversation we mum said, you know, you bend over backwards for people. It was said, like, as a criticism,

and I would have been over backwards to put it right, but I think, hold on, you have to also take responsibility and when I've asked for accountability, it's been, I've messed up, I'm human and I will mess up again.

and Ad said, it's a pattern. It's a pattern of behaviour that you keep repeating and until you work on the pattern, I don't know what I can do to move this forward. Like I said, the conversation ended quite, quite open. They will have a thing and be in touch and then nothing. There was something interesting about that because it's the idea that that little voice is your mother's and that her narrative is essentially that

You bending over backwards for everyone else's grace, but I expect you to do it for me. I saw that at the time and thought, right? That's... that's um...

That's interesting and odd. Yes. The feeling. Yeah. Right. And then I go to that little voice that's saying, you're just saying this as a way to just suppose that is it that you're pretending to be happy? Is that what the voice is saying to you? You're pretending to be happy? Yeah, I think the voice is trying to undermine the life that I've built, a life that I am wholeheartedly content with. Okay. So you are actually happy.

yeah yeah okay so you're not pretending to me now that no you're okay good okay um and so what is that if that little voice if we were to talk to it and ask it what are you scared of what would it say that it's all going to be taken away and you kidding yourself that this is real that this is yours i suppose it's trying to protect you from being complacent yeah if you were to talk to it and say

It's okay, we're safe. We don't need to worry about that. We don't need to be scared of justifying ourselves. We are happy and we don't need to be scared of losing everything. What would it say back? Oh, I've never, I've never said that to us. Okay, what's touching you now? That's obviously it. Yeah, I think I've realised there in that moment that

this life my life is enough for me it's enough for me and it's enough for me to be happy i don't need somebody else to tell us whether i'm allowed to be happy you don't yeah and what's that like how does that feel it feels overwhelming to be honest

So it's a bit scary. It's very scary. It's scary to sit in happiness. I've always been very, very frightened of it. So to sit in happy is risky. And so I can't relax in that because if I do, I won't be on guard and prepared if something bad happens. When? When something bad happens? When? When you're right? When something bad happens? Because you don't deserve to be happy.

Okay. So you don't deserve to be happy. You have to sit in anticipation, hyper-vigilance, for when something will go wrong, because it will. There's no doubt about that.

How well have you been able to protect yourself against things that have gone wrong or bad? I haven't. I genuinely haven't. It was always me thought that when something bad happens, at least you're prepared because you've been through this situation so many times in your mind, you know how to cope with it, but it's not necessarily that thing that happens.

something completely random you know you're planning on your car breaking down and what I would do if my car broke down but actually I've dropped my phone down the toilet and my phone's broke but I didn't plan for that eventuality.

Okay, okay, so you haven't figured out what you were doing that scenario but you have in that one and then that one happens and now you've not actually got a like way out or a coping strategy or a plan. Yeah. Okay, so isn't it interesting to notice that that you you've been planning for all these things and then something you didn't even consider happens? Yeah.

And also, I wonder if the thing that you have planned for, if that does have, has that ever happened, the thing that you've planned for? No, no, not really. Because I'm always very worst case scenario, I would catastrophise. So it would be the most extreme length of something. Or say exam results, expect the worst. Oh, I've actually done okay. So at least I can sit in a little bit of happiness because I've done better than anticipated.

What are you actually trying to protect yourself from? Failure? Failure? Failure? I wonder actually if it's the emotions associated with the failure. Shame. Shame is so often the driver of all this behaviour. The fear of shame, not actual shame, but the fear of feeling that shame. Because when you grow up in an environment that you grow up in, shame is used to control and belittle and

dominate you and it feels so disgusting and tells us we're so unlovable and so unworthy and so unimportant that we we try to avoid it at all costs and that's where it becomes toxic shame is when it it's saying to us we are a terrible human being okay

The difference between guilt and shame is that guilt is I did a bad thing and shame is I am a bad person. And when we are sitting in guilt, both of them can go to toxic extremes. But when we're sitting in that shame space,

It's not a terrible thing to have a little bit of shame. In fact, it's quite healthy. We want it because it keeps us kind of, well, it used to be survival. I'm sure you're ready about this if you've read the book. It used to be about survival, but it's now, you know, it becomes about social survival and everything else. But also it shows us where we've betrayed ourselves and not become, not acted as like in line with our values or our beliefs or who we want to be as a human being.

and so a little bit of shame is a helpful thing but when it's to the point where you're doing all these things to avoid having any contact with it at all because it's so toxic and so awful for you to feel

It becomes controlling of us. It does. It paralyzes us. And we actually then do stop taking accountability because we're so fearful of it. And if we make a mistake, if we're not perfect, if we reveal an emotion and someone's like, you're overreacting, we feel that shame, right?

So we hide behind it almost or in front of it. I'm not even sure but if we go back then to shame and I asked this in the Facebook group the other day like if if you were thinking about shame and How it helps you how it protects you? What would you say from making the same mistake twice? Okay from making the same mistake twice and

Take it further. What is it about making that mistake that would be bad? Judgment. Who's judgment? Usually other people's judgment. Gill is something that I would, I would sit and I would feel about something that I'd done. But it would be shameful if other people perceived it as being as bad as I thought it was. Because it would be evidence that you're a terrible, terrible person.

Yeah, it would reinforce the things that I've thought about myself as being true. Okay, so if everyone, if anyone knows this, they might agree with what I think about myself and that would be soul destroying. Yeah. What would you have to do if someone agreed with the things you think about yourself?

I'd probably have to just become a hermit and live in the house forever. Like remove yourself from society all together. All together? Yep. Okay. Okay. So see how much it's controlling you. The fear of the judgement of others.

Why do they get to decide whether or not you're a good person? It's going to be painful to say this but because other people's opinions up until very recently and needed other people to validate how I felt. For you to be allowed to feel it.

Yes, yeah. And I think that's what this conversation has also been. Having somebody say actually know what you think it is right. I am getting a lot better at it, but it's almost as if I can't be trusted to know me on emotions.

And do you know where that comes from? You know, I grew up in the 90s and it was, don't cry or I'll give you something to cry about. It's not that big a deal. You're far too sensitive. No, it didn't happen like that. Why are you overreacting? Okay. Let's change that. I grew up in the 90s too. I grew up in an abusive environment.

where any time I had an emotional reaction to the way I was being treated, I was told that my reaction was the problem, not their behaviour and that I should accept that they know me and my emotions better and what I should feel rather than what I do feel better than I know myself. The amount of times I've been told, Anna, we're better than you know yourself. I hate that phrase so much. It's so bad. Anna, you're better than you know yourself. Right.

Do you see how toxic that is? Because the thing about that phrase, and I've talked about this before, I don't know where, socials, but I don't know where, but the thing of I know you better than you know yourself, only says to a child, you can't trust any of your internal experience. You cannot believe what you feel and you need to use me as a reference point for you to know what your identity is.

Yeah. Right. And a child internalizes that and then he says, I end up sitting on a podcast saying, I need someone else to validate all my feelings to know that I'm feeling the right thing. Because yeah, it's so toxic to say that to like so toxic. When you say that to a child, you absolutely teach them not to trust themselves, that their self perception is flawed and that they shouldn't ever

make any emotional decision without using the person who's saying it, usually apparent, as a point of reference.

Right? So now here you are, the things that you've told me today, you're not depressed, you've got nothing to be depressed about. A medical person diagnosed you and gave you medication. When did they go to doctor, like to medical school? Right? Then you told me that if you stood up for yourself, you immediately got discarded. When you were a child, you learned not to share anything with them about what you were feeling, about what they were doing, because they told you you were wrong. Is it anyone there?

that you sit here now saying, I'm not sure I can trust what we feel. No, it's not. The times that I have followed my own intuition to the very end of something and not being put off by a issue, I don't think that's right for you. The times that I've followed it through have resulted in the best things that have happened. Okay.

The evidence shows that if we zoom out and are logical and do the critical thinking thing, the evidence shows that when you trust yourself, when you follow what you think is right for you.

that it pans out well. Yeah. Very well. What happens when you follow what they think for you? I get lost almost as if I drown. I would say I drown in feelings of inadequacy, in the goalpost, I'll shift quite often. So the goalpost shift, do you feel like you're drowning? I wonder how anxious you get in those situations as well. Horrifically. Yeah. Horrifically anxious.

And do you know why that is? Because I'm going against everything, me on intuition. Exactly. You're ignoring your own emotions. And so what they're doing is going, can you please bloody listen? We really need you to listen. Excuse me, would you listen? So the only way they can get you to listen is to come out as anxiety. And so they do, they come up and go, this is such a physical emotion. There's no way you can ignore it.

but quite often people will continue and then they're sort of wondering why your hands up. So they're then wondering why am I so anxious? Why am I so anxious? And it's all because you're ignoring your feelings and your feelings are very clearly telling you that you don't want to do what you're doing. Yeah. But your, you know, conditioning is telling you it's determined to make you ignore those feelings. Yeah.

And then so then you end up in this big sort of spiral of thing, right? Because you're so scared of their judgment and their shame and their blame and their humiliation of you that you think if I do what they want, then I'll please them. And I avoid all the shame feeling. But the cost of that then is this awful anxiety and ignoring my own once desires needs. And then at the end of it, there would still be the judgment of

maybe a tiny little facet within there. Right, that you hadn't followed. So whatever you do, it's not good enough.

No, but then you'll get told. We're so proud of you. But I've worked out that that was probably to keep us compliant. I'm aware that once my parents and my brother, my brother was very much the golden child. Once their relationship broke down, I became the golden child. And there's only two of us. Right. I'd never heard such lovely things about myself from my mum.

Right. And of course it was so nice to sit in. Of course it was. Of course it was. The glow. Because little you is in there going oh this is like sun on my skin and the best day I've ever had and ice cream and milkshakes and all the things that I've never had wasn't allowed was kept from me. All the things I was deprived of I'm now getting so I'm going to keep trying to get those things because oh my god this feels amazing.

Right? Yeah. So if we go back to your original question about your part and your choice and are you doing the right thing, what are you feeling and thinking about it now? That it is the right thing. And I suppose now I've had a professional person and tell us that it is valid and it is real. And I am

within my rights to feel the way that I feel. I can put it a bit almost. This isn't just me making this up in my mind. Somebody else has heard us and somebody said, yeah, it was the way that you see it. I know to put myself back in an environment where it involved in my life would be detrimental to all the hard work I've done. Yeah, I wonder if

because I deliberately chose the words your choice. And I wonder if it still feels like it's your choice and your fault and your responsibility to fix.

How can I fix it? I can't. It's got to be too rare. It's got to be reciprocal. I don't believe that my mum's capable of changing. My dad enables the behaviour. My mum's still openly saying things like, I'm too long in my tooth to change the way that I am. Oh, OK, so I'm just going to keep justifying where I can abuse you. Brilliant. She would say it is, you know, all this modern day.

perspectives on parents gone too far and all that kind of thing. So she'd be able to justify it. Can you hear the entitlement in that? Yeah. Can you? She's entitled to treat her child, her object, her possession, anywhere in which she sees pleases and she sees fit because

You belong to her and she is the parent. You are not an autonomous individual human being. You listen to me. I am the parent. You are the child. You are the child and therefore I know better than you about everything including your feelings, your thoughts and your motivation, your intent. I know you're a bad child because I know you better than yourself.

And when I look at children, the children that I know and especially my daughter, children don't have intentions beyond

the moment. Yeah, exactly. There's very few children who are able to plan that far ahead in terms of like, and I don't even like this word around children, but manipulation or influence, you know, they're just like, Hmm, I want sweeties or I want a day off school. I've got sore throats. You haven't come on. Like, or maybe you haven't, I need to give you medicine. You know, it's the, the idea that a child could be that calculated

is totally flawed. And I'm going to just put a caveat of in there are some circumstances where that could be true. But we're talking like major conditions then. We're talking psychopathy and we're talking serious significant things in the majority of cases.

No. You did not have that intent and what that was was projection and what that was was her revealing her own intent, her own behaviour. Yeah.

her own thoughts and values and feelings. There is something else that I would like to say about the validation part because I've got a funny feeling that when we end the call, you're going to say, well, she just saying what I wanted to hear was, am I right? Is there? Yeah. Okay. And this goes for everybody listening to make no mistake.

had i thought you had any part to be responsible for i would absolutely have challenged it and said that's a bit tricky because xyz yeah okay it would have been very gentle and hopefully it would have felt so light it would have been like a feather touching but i would nevertheless have held you accountable and

In what we've discussed today, what I've noticed or what I have noticed is there is a default position of blame because it protects you and it gives you a bit of hope that maybe you could have them back and that's that toxic hope that we've talked about so often.

And what that usually is, is denial, which in turn is the avoidance of grief. And so perhaps now, rather than turning to blame, it's turning to the grief of what you did not have, what you needed, and what you will not have, because when we are

involuntary or, you know, involuntarily orphaned in this way, but in this way, it was you were discarded. So it's not even that you actively chose it. What you're doing is not actively going back to all fawning to get them back on side. That voluntarily offening ourselves is horrendously painful.

to walk through the world without a parent, because of their behaviour towards us, to have to protect ourselves in relationship from them is utterly devastating. Not as an isolated thing, but as a societal thing too, because all the narratives point to parents being pedestaled, especially mothers, and when your mother is abusive,

the having to, A, remove yourself from the relationship for your own safety, but B, walk around the world without that maternal support, and C, explain to a society who pedestals mothers that your mother is abusive.

That is hard. That's not just hard. That is an Everest of a path to walk. And it is not done lightly. And so with your experience, my point really is

that your grief deserves a space. It deserves to exist. And whilst you can be so happy in your life now, and I'm so glad that you are, there may be some grief still sitting there that needs a voice, a space, an acknowledgement, and not to be hidden in denial, you know.

Yeah, this whole situation has really revealed a lot about my relationship with my husband. It has always been a little part of us that I've kept that read off. The unconditional love has not really had it. And now to see that I have got it is really a sermon. And to be able to sit with somebody who isn't repelled by

how broken you feel, how much snot you covered in, the tears. I suppose there's what I'm trying to say is there's been good come out of a bad situation. Can I reframe that a little bit? Yeah.

there has been good in spite of a bad situation. Yeah, in spite of a bad situation. Because let's not be grateful for the trauma, let's not be grateful for the abuse to say there's the silver lining. You know, the fact that you, I mean, you said that in your 20s, you ended up in an abusive relationship. The fact that you are not in one now is rare, first of all, and amazing.

Um, what I'm going to offer you and anyone else listening is that as you start revealing your true self and stop hiding those parts that you have hidden away for shame and whatever other reasons, just take it very slowly because everything in your brain is going to be going, no, don't do it. There'll be alarm signals. There'll be warning bells. There'll be anxiety. There'll be this is the worst possible thing you could do. And it may

shift your dynamic with him a little bit even because you'll be so fearful of being vulnerable that you'll feel like you need to form to make him still want you and love you. And so just be very, very gentle in what you do and take it very, very, you know, just tiny little micro pieces of yourself to bring into the open. So you'll bring and learn that it's safe to be you, right? And do all those protective mechanisms. Makes sense. And that makes a lot of sense.

So, how are you feeling now and how has it been talking to me today? It's been really eye-organin, a firman, I would say that's me mean word, a firman. I feel wrong out emotionally. Yeah.

But it's also been, instead of me trying to fit the podcast into my situation, it's getting me question answered directly, which is so helpful, so helpful. So then the next question I would like to ask is, have you got what you need from today?

I have. Definitely. And the final question which I asked first but you didn't actually answer was how are you feeling now? You said emotionally wrong, I'm sorry you did answer that bit but anything else? A roll. I would say roll. Well I just want to say a massive thank you Hannah because that you are so brave and so honest and I'm really grateful to you for being so. It's been an absolute pleasure to spend this time with you and work through this with you.

so yeah thank you so much thank you okay so on that note i just want to say thank you to our sponsors boston ale house and thank you to everyone listening and all our supporters so with that all that remains to be said is take care bye bye