11/25/24: AOC Trump Voters, Bernie War On Dems, Trump Betrays MAGA, Bibi Cornered By ICC & MORE!

Hey everyone, it's Sarah Spain from Good Game with Sarah Spain. We're in Malaga, Spain, where we just watched team Italy win the Billie Jean King Cup, aka the World Cup of Tennis. Before the final, we got the chance to sit down with the legend herself, Billie Jean King, to talk about the tournament and why it's so important for athletes to understand the business side of sport. Plus, jerseys, numbers, different scoring. You'll never guess the wild ways Billie wants to change the sport of tennis. Listen to this episode of Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Hey, everyone. This is Courtney Thorne Smith, Laura Layton, and Daphne Zinega. On July 8, 1992, apartment buildings with pools were never quite the same as Melrose Place was introduced to the world. We are going to be reliving every hookup, every scandal, and every single wig removal together. So listen to still the place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Good morning, everyone. Happy Thanksgiving week. Crystal, grateful for you. Oh, thanks. Hey, ma'am. Thank you. It was a fun time with you here at the desk. Well, you know, it's a blast, and we should probably try to beat our record today, maybe go to like four or five hours. Be real. I don't know if I have that in me. I'm still recovering from seeing Wicked this weekend. That's right. You saw Wicked many hours in front of the movie's screen, but it was great. Good. Yes.

I'm glad to hear it. Big fan. I am excited about the share today though because we have some exclusive reporting. We actually sent out producer Griffin who's going to join us in studio to talk to some of those AOC Trump voters and get them in their words as to why they made the choice to vote for Donald Trump and then down ballot. Vote for AOC. Jail partners helped us identify them. So I think you guys are going to find this really interesting. I certainly found it really interesting. We'll bring that to you exclusively.

We also have a bunch of updates on the Trump transition. His cabinet actually now full complete, not to say there aren't other slats. He's got a fill that aren't cabinet level, but he has, you know, at a very rapid clip put out his nominees here. So we'll bring you some of the most interesting choices, including Attorney General nominee now Pam Bondi, who was the Attorney General of Florida.

That was, you know, to fill in for Matt Gaetz, who had to withdraw his nomination. Emily covered that for us last week. Also, another really interesting one, the woman that they chose for Department of Labor. So she is a very rare person, which is a pro-union Republican. She was one of the only Republicans in the House that supported the pro act, so a bit of a surprise there. Tell you what that means, potentially, for the future with labor and unions and a bit of a conservative, like, business-friendly meltdown on that side of the aisle with regard to that pick.

We also have some updates for you with regard to last week we brought you the news that the ICC has now issued arrest warrants for BB Netanyahu, Yohov, Galan, and a leader of Hamas. We're taking a look at which countries are actually going to abide by international law and would arrest BB or saying publicly they would arrest BB if he were to be on their soil, so significant development there. Meanwhile, Elon, apparently thinking about buying MSNBC, the memes are flying, Emily.

Yes, and many of them are flying from his keyboard. Indeed. Yeah, they range from genuinely funny to very disturbing. True. Very true. As memes do. As memes do. And I'm also taking a look at MSNBC. You know, I really think even if the network continues in some sort of like hobbled form going forward, which is likely is going to.

The role that it has served in terms of the Democratic Party, it's over. I mean, the combination of Trump winning and then Joe Amica bending the knee down at Mar-a-Lago has completely nuked that channel. And so what comes afterwards? Will it be, is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I'll get into all of that in my monologue. I've obviously got a lot of thoughts on this one.

I'm not surprised to learn that you have more thoughts on this, Crystal, and I'm very excited to hear them. Yes, indeed. All right, let's go ahead and get to, we'll bring Griffin in and reset, and then we will bring you that video of AOC Trump voters and why they made the choices that they did. So as I was just saying, we have Griffin here in studio with us to help break down these conversations that you had with people who actually voted for AOC in Trump. We had a number of women who we were able to speak with. So set up a little bit for us, what you asked them and what your general takeaways and vibes were.

Yeah, without giving too much of a spoiler, it was interesting because for Trump, the reasons were all pretty much the same. It was immigration, it was wars, and it was like the economy. With AOC, it seemed to be more of her personality or charisma and kind of like her celebrity star status, but also just this feeling that they felt like she was real, that she was real and that she actually cared.

So that was really interesting. It was a range of voters. There was some people who were high information, like they've been tracking it for about a year. And some people who kind of made their decision within like the last day or two. But yeah, the range of answers, as we'll see in just a second, were pretty similar from the majority of the voters. All right. Well, let's go ahead and take a listen to what they had to say.

Why did you vote for both Trump and AOC in 2024? Because America needs a role model. And I think Donald Trump is a role model. The border, you know, the people coming to US illegally, the martyrs, everything, all the crimes are increasing. The Democrats really haven't done anything for us that actually made the situation worse in New York. So I thought this time around, let's just give Trump, you know, a chance.

maybe, you know, he can make things better. He's very business minded, and I also feel that being that he has these connections with other leaders, it can, like, you know, prevent war from happening in the future. When Trump first came, those four years, it was, you know, ups and downs, but it was nowhere, like, you know, it was no war. We didn't have any fight with other countries. How does AOC fit into that picture? She's like that sister that will always defend you. She'll

fight, she'll scream till a bloody pulp if she had to. You know, she's truly a fighter. Is there a little bit of like a New York realness that they both share? Is that what I'm hearing? Oh, yeah, definitely. So much that they could be like brother and sister almost.

I like that they're very outspoken. They really have, I think, no filter. If you look at Joe Biden, there are a lot of things probably he wouldn't understand about our generation or the future generation and also Donald Trump as well. He's aged two. So we need someone above and beyond like more

new generation and would understand more. I just voted for her honestly because the other people I don't know about. And her, I just always hear about it's like crazy. So I thought, you know, she's a familiar name. Let me just vote for her. My mother was like, vote for her. So I was like, okay. That's great. That's enough. Listen to your mom. Could you compare Kamala and AOC for me? What is the difference between the two of them?

I just feel that Kamala, um, have a position as a vice president already. And I don't feel like she did much in the position that she held for the last four years. I feel like she used entertainers for promotion. And I didn't like that at all. She doesn't bring anything to the table. Even if she was a first woman person, she doesn't know what she's doing. And she's going to, you know, not give us a bad name, but it's just we're going to go from bad to worse. Cause I feel like our country is doing so bad now.

AOC really tells you what she's going to do rather than come on the words. She's just more broad. If you're going to change the world, if you're going to run for president, start now. You have your vice president now. You can start now. Tell us what you're going to do. How do you feel about the war in Gaza? How do you feel the US and how they've handled it? And did that affect your vote at all?

In a big way. Yes. We just don't want any war and we don't want innocent lives to be killed without any reason. It's crazy what's going on there and we need to fix it. It needs to stop.

And I think Donald Trump will be able to maneuver it. I hope he does. New York has so many issues here with high rent and working all the time. It's like you care about it, but you have so many other major important things going on in your life that just come before that. And it's just sad to say. Do you think that Trump is anti-war? I'm not sure.

I don't think President Trump wants to meet before I was anyone. If Trump was in office during that time, we wouldn't. A lot of things that are going on with the migrants, the war, I just don't believe a lot of these things would be going on. If Trump had been president, I really don't think it would have gotten this far. Would you vote for AOC for president as a Democrat? Yeah, yeah, I would give it a chance. I mean, I don't say that women are not equal to men,

I think she might need to work on her education of world news, like her way to communicate about it and the policies and everything. She would be good maybe. If Trump were to use the military, let's say if he were used to use the army to start deporting people from cities, is that something that you would support? I would definitely support that because I think that would be the only way

to get the deportation process started. We're talking about criminals. We're talking about mob, you know, a lot of gang members. And I mean, who else would be able to do that but the military? I think it's really a case-by-case basis. I feel like a lot of them just come here and get away with things. I don't think the police is doing what they should right now. I really don't think they care. According to Trump, we will no longer have any more prisoners after him. Does that worry you? No.

We not at all. We need to get rid of Congress, the legislation, the laws. Everything just needs to be rewired and reeled.

we thought out. Let's just start this whole thing over again. So interesting. So Tashina there at the end is like burning all down. Let's start it all down. Get rid of all the Congress, just let him do whatever he wants to do. No more presidents. We don't have to work anymore after that then. That's not good. No more elections. No more elections. Nothing else to cover, so we can all retire. Shut it down. There was so much that was interesting about that. I mean, surface level,

The reasons match a lot of what you see in the polls, like, oh, immigration was important. Oh, inflation and the economy was important. But there was so much texture there that was really different. And the other thing that came across to me in watching these voters, and like you said, some of them were more like high information, more tuned in, and some of them were less engaged in the day-to-day news cycle, which nothing wrong with that. But in both respects with Trump and AOC, would they really have in common?

More than anything else, a star power. They brought huge name ID, huge star power. So you had the one woman saying, like, I just hear about it. I always see all the time. So I feel like she must be doing something because I hear her name a lot.

And I do think that speaks to one of the things that's been absent from the Democratic autopsies that are going on is like Trump is a celebrity and controversy has served him and the fact that he's in his name is in front of you and in the news all the time and AOC is also this sort of controversial celebrity in a certain sense that really serves both of them and is probably the model for politicians that both parties need to follow going forward.

100% and not only that they're like celebrities but that they were real and they were fighters. Right. That I kept cheering over and over again. Not only that they were like a star status to them. What they were fighting for wasn't that important. It was just like I feel like they're gonna get in there. Yes. And oftentimes I would ask them like well you know I know AOC and Trump have

fight for very different things. They have very different opinions on things like immigration, but they didn't really care because they knew that both these people were passionate and they fought for what they believed in, which they just didn't get a sense from people like Kamala and other Democrats. And it seems like they almost just respect that more, even if they disagree on a certain issue.

Yeah, that's important and also what they believe in fundamentally and the minds of especially casual voters who don't spend their days thinking about this is helping the country and to the point that you brought up, that can be very different things. But if they believe that you have their best interests at heart,

then they just sort of have to put the trust in the candidate that they ultimately go with. And they're not super partisan or ideological. So I thought that was really helpful, Griffin. I wanted to get your take on immigration because this is not exactly a very white district. And that mattered a lot to these voters, contrary to the media narrative about how it would be turning many, many people off. And Donald Trump would be dead on arrival, especially with non-white voters because of the immigration issue. In New York City, you're a New Yorker that did not at all turn out to be the case. What did you hear?

Yeah, it was really interesting because it seems very almost localized of an issue. I live in central Brooklyn, and we don't really hear a lot about the immigration issue, but where AOC's District 14 is, it's a little bit of the northern top of Queens, and then a large part of the Bronx.

And up there, it just really seems like the immigration issue has affected them a lot more. And I was really curious after talking to all of them, because all of them would bring it up as like their number one thing that their streets didn't feel safe anymore. They talked a lot about 57th Street, which I guess is a big intake center for immigrants. So I did some research. And in the last three years, almost a quarter million immigrants have come through New York City currently right now as of August.

In the last three years, about a quarter million. But currently right now, as of August, there's about 64,000 in the city being housed in like hotels, intake centers. They even have like an old airplane runway where they have some of them. And Mayor Eric Adams has been trying to do a lot. Another fighter. Yeah, another fighter, another New York real one. Another Patriot.

But, you know, Eric Adams has been doing all sorts of things across the broad. Like, Eric Adams, he recently traveled to Latin America to hand out flyers about how expensive New York is, so you shouldn't come. And so he's trying all sorts of strategies. Is that where Istanbul is? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, some geography lessons. But, like, they also, what I found out recently is they have this new rule for sheltering, where you can only stay in the hotels now for 30 to 60 days.

and then you have to apply to be able to stay in, or you get kind of dished to the street. And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of these women, these voters noticing a lot more people on the streets now, because they're not in the hotels anymore, because after that 30 days, they're now in a tent somewhere. But there's more visible sort of disorder. And they're linking basically anything to those immigrants, any crime, any gang activity. They're kind of just immediately linking that to the immigrants. And yeah.

But it's a sanctuary city, right? So that's where people are on the streets, right? So if people are on the streets, they remain on the streets, unless there's like housing to your point that steps to all of that, which seems to also be frustrating the voters. Yeah. And then to the military deportations part, which I wanted to ask them about, you know, because that seemed to be just a big kind of national talking point about will Trump use the army to bring people in? And the core thing to them was they weren't really scared of that.

because they were really sick and tired of it. And it seemed to me that it was pinned on that they found the NYPD to be incompetent and unable to handle these issues, which I kinda don't blame them. I mean, as a New Yorker, and you see these cops on the subways, they're mainly going after ticket fair people and on their TikToks, you know?

It was funny because that's something that you would never, from a top line analysis, you would never get the texture of that like, oh, they're like anti-police. And that's why they're like, I guess you got to bring in the military. And it is true if you, you know, pull institutions, one of the institutions that has a highest level of trust in the country remains the military.

So that logic is really interesting and not something that you would guess from the outside, but from their perspective makes some sense. The reality of what that might actually look like may create a different impression. But coming in, that's not a non-starter for them whatsoever.

The other thing that was really noteworthy and that did not turn up as much in the surveys about why people voted the way they did is that all of these women seemed concerned about war, they seemed concerned about Gaza in particular. The one woman who I'm blanking on her name, I know when she, you first asked the question she said like basically peace, that's what I'm most interested in.

I believe that was Nazia, yes. And she was the most informed. She'd been really paying attention to almost all the politics for about a year, so she was the most informed. But all of the women were aware of this. None of them were like, what's Gaza or what's going on there? Everyone clearly has been seeing some glimpse of what's happening and not liking it.

Yeah, and so if you're, you know, the Democratic Party, Kamala Harris, trying to position yourself as this moral authority, not really undercuts it, and whether or not it's true that this wouldn't have happened under Trump, clearly his talking points had broken through.

with these voters, whether it was ascribing all crime to immigrants when the stats will tell you that undocumented immigrants actually commit far fewer crimes than they have born Americans. But that talking point had landed and connected and was being repeated. And the talking point about, hey, if Trump was there, I don't think we would have had all these wars. That also had clearly landed with them. And it was funny to me when you ask them, do you think that Trump is anti-war? And the one of them was like,

I don't know, but maybe it would be different. To that point, these women, some of them were like, oh, Trump's a role model and stuff, but they were also very clear-eyed about who Trump is and the likelihood of him fixing all these problems. Essentially how they saw it was, Kamala was like a known quantity, and they knew she wasn't gonna do anything to fix these problems. They weren't sure if Trump was really gonna fix these problems, but they knew Kamala wasn't.

So they're like, well, let's just roll the dice again. Just funny, because Trump has been president before. You'd think he'd be more of a known quantity, but to them still, he was the dice roll gamble of maybe something different, but none of them were sure. Well, and I want to ask about that, because for many people voting, as soon as like a civic duty, you do it even if you're ambivalent about the candidates. What sense did you get of why actually some of these women chose to vote? I mean, we saw the critic was Margaret with her baby that she was hanging out with while you were doing the interview.

These are busy people. Everyone is busy. They have an option to not vote if they're ambivalent. It's something that's totally understandable in common. If you don't think either of the candidates is great, you just set out the election. It sounds like even with some of this ambivalence, these mixed feelings about Donald Trump actually went out and voted anyway.

Yeah, they were just desperate, I think, for change. Just change in a large sense on a few different issues. We didn't have a ton of sound bites in this footage about the economy because I could sense that sometimes people feel a little

uncomfortable talking about the economy, whether it's kind of a morass of an issue to kind of have the right words to describe it. But people just felt like things just like weren't working for them, things were getting more expensive. And three of them, I believe, were actually mothers. And I did ask them all about the child tax credit and under Biden that they all received. And they spoke with that really fondly. But at the same time,

They were, you know, they're Republican voters. They didn't want handouts. They just wanted things to be more fair. Yeah. Yeah. You hear that a lot. You got a little taste in there. You asked, okay, would you vote for AOC for precedent? Yeah. Is that something you'd be open to? And one of the women had this response that was like, well, I'm not saying women aren't people to men. But, you know, maybe she needs to do a little more work.

Were there any comments that they made about Kamala Harris and her gender? Was that important to them? Was that a positive? Was it a negative? Was it indifferent? What was your sense? So there was a lot of talk about misogyny, but I don't feel like any of them were misogynists, but they viewed the foreign policy and working with other

foreign leaders and them being misogynistic to women. And so that it would just be naturally harder for a female to be president and deal with all these men of the world, which isn't like maybe technically that false. I'm sure there's some misogynistic world leaders. They have kind of a clear-eyed view of the world of like, well, I'm not sexist, but sexism is a real thing that exists. So maybe we got to have a man in there so that he doesn't have to deal with that.

Totally. Effectively. Absolutely. I think a lot of democratic primary voters are going to, this has been my prediction is like they're never going to nominate a woman again for a similar reason of like, well, I'm not sexist, but I think the rest of the country is. It's like a self-fulfilling loop, right? Where if you believe it, then you feed into it as well. Yeah. But they also always talked about how Trump was so good with world leaders that world leaders just like like to get along with him. And that was his like secret sauce to like stopping wars.

And they all mentioned like, there just wasn't that many wars when Trump was around. And now there's a bunch of wars and the Democrats don't seem to be anywhere near stopping all of them. And there doesn't seem to be a clear reason to these voters why any of them are happening. They just say, there's no reason. We don't understand why they're happening.

I know this is zeroing in on one part of New York that's not like a lot of the rest of the country but in many ways it actually is like a lot of the rest of the country because if you look at that Washington Post map that we were covering all night here on election night you saw movement towards Trump in many many places. Now Trump still lost a lot of counties but there were big swings in places like New Jersey and places like New York and there was also a lot of tickets putting even

even places like Florida where the abortion referendum, it didn't hit the 60% threshold, but it got really close. It was like at 56%. So you had a lot of people voting for Donald Trump and voting for abortion to be in the constitution of the state of Florida. That happened all over the country. So I think Griffin is just important to say that, yes, well, a lot of the country looks at New York in particular as the sort of like alien world, like it's Mars. This is something that happened with voters everywhere else.

Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, none of these voters are like white men, you know, like three parties were mothers. They were all working-class women between their 30s and 40s. And yeah, they just... None of the bros wanted to talk to you, Griffin. None of the bros. The mustache, man. They were like, this guy's too powerful. I'll say for the bros. But yeah, like these women were, you know, although some of them had some things that you might not agree with both Trump about, whether he was a role model and stuff, they were just all very clear-eyed that

Why not? We'll see what happens, because right now things just aren't working for me. And I thought it was just so interesting when they talked about like Kamala versus AOC, because they just felt like Kamala just didn't really stand for pretty much anything. They were open to thinking about her and just seemed like what she had to say, but they couldn't remember or think about what she was all about in the way they felt that way about AOC.

it's like, I think they could vote for a Democrat at some point, if they were. And even if they didn't agree with all the same issues, because it seemed to be like a core thing of respect. I respect that you care about things, that you're passionate, that you're not hiding who you are. And those things seem to surmount any of the individual issues because they all love AOC.

Yeah, and that's been my thing. I think that a lot of times liberals look at politics in the wrong way, thinking that you can just go down and check a lot of stuff. Our issue set is more popular, if you poll it, than their issue set, when that sense of this person's a fighter, this person stands for something, this person isn't just pandering to me. They're going to get in there and they're going to mix things up.

those personality traits and that energy and that celebrity, frankly, I think is also really important is kind of the common thread that connects why you would vote for a Donald Trump and then check the ballot for AOC. Great job with these, Griffin. They all love Liz Cheney, though. Oh, well, I mean, that's a uniter across the board, right? Should have left that in the cut.

Also, I live when you come to the show, and for people who know producer Griffin, follow producer Griffin, he's doing sort of a Ron Burgundy look today. Watch out, you're gonna start dating yourself without reference. That's an old millennial reference. That's an elder millennial. But we don't often see you in a tie, and out of respect for Sagar, it was important for you to put the tie on. Yeah, we didn't want Sagar to be distressed while he was trying to enjoy his honeymoon, so that was very kind of huge of him. Of course, absolutely.

for soccer. I was worried it was a little too skinny. It was a little too RFK Jr. maybe. Yeah. Well, we'll get his after action report. Yep. Absolutely. But yeah. And I really like to thank JLP partners. They're polling. They've done a lot of great polling for us over the last year. And they did the hard work of finding all these people for us. And so definitely check out them in the video description for this video. Awesome. Thanks, Griffin.

Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stand. Anya and I met through hockey and now we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness in between.

We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice, like FIFA World Cup winner Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was going to be. And Peloton instructor and a ratchet mom club founder, Kristen Ferguson. And I remember going in there a hot mess. So listen to moms who puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeartWomen's Sports. Hey, everyone. It's Sarah Spain from Good Game with Sarah Spain, and we're in the beautiful city of Malaga, Spain, where we just watched Team Italy win the Billie Jean King Cup. Before the final, we got a chance to sit down with Billie Jean herself. Take a listen.

Well, look at the scoring. I think it should be one, two, three, four. How do you get new kids in the game? I mean, they come to watch, and I've never been in tennis, and my coach are saying, well, let me explain the scoring. It's 15 left, 30 left. I go, I know, 45, right? They got no. And I'm 11 years old, and I said to him, this is the stupidest, great English, the stupidest thing I've ever been.

Now, I know I'm like a lot of kids. I don't come from tennis. My family's not in tennis. And if you are in tennis, as a child, you still want to make it fun. And I think when you start tennis, you should be put on a team. Just put them on a team. They can be a great team. Make it less individual from the beginning. Because it's about relationships.

To hear more from the legend herself, Billie Jean King, on my show, Good Game with Sarah Spain, be sure to listen to this episode of Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jackie's Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit. The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jackie's Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts

Dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories, Black Lit is for the Paige Turner's for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters.

From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. BlackLit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to BlackLit on the iHeartVideo app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So at the same time, obviously, there's a big soul searching autopsy situation going on inside of the Democratic Party. What went wrong? What do they need to do? Moving forward to try to win back some of those working class voters who have been fleeing the party. Bernie Sanders has been pretty unvarnished in his critique of the Democrats and how they abandon working class voters.

And he just recently sent out a campaign email that was not one of these normal, just like boilerplate fundraising pitches. This was clearly coming directly from him and continued that critique of the Democratic Party and also opened up some interesting possibilities for what Senator Sanders may be doing with his time. In the future, let's go ahead and put this up on the screen. I'm gonna read this in full, guys. So just bear with me so you can get the full sense of it. He said, I won't do it. I won't do it in the word of voice. Do a Brent of Time.

Not bad. The American people understand that our economic and political systems are rigged. They know that the very rich get much richer while almost everyone else becomes poor. They know that we are moving rapidly into an oligarchic form of society. The Democrats ran a campaign protecting the status quo and tinkering around the edges.

Trump and the Republicans campaigned on change and on smashing the existing order. Not surprisingly, the Republicans won. Unfortunately, the quote, change that Republicans will bring about will make a bad situation worse and a society of gross inequality, even more unequal, more unjust, and more bigoted.

Will the Democratic leadership learn the lessons of their defeat and create a party that stands with the working class and is prepared to take on the enormously powerful special interests that dominate our economy, our media, and our political life? Highly unlikely.

They are much too wedded to the billionaires and corporate interests that fund their campaigns. Given that reality, where do we go from here? That is a very serious question that needs a lot of discussion in the coming weeks and months. How do we expand our efforts to build a multi-racial, multi-generational working class movement?

How do we create a 50-state movement, not politics based on the Electoral College and battleground states? How do we deal with Citizens United and the ability of billionaires to buy elections? How do we recruit more working-class candidates for office at levels of government? Should we be supporting independent candidates who are prepared to take on both parties? How do we better support union organizing?

How do we put together listening sessions around the country that intentionally seek input from people who did not vote for Democrats in the last election? How do we best use social media to build our movement and combat the lies and disinformation coming from a billionaire class in bright wing media? How do we build sustainable and long-term issue-based organizing structures that live beyond individual campaigns? These are some of the political questions that together we need to address, and it is

Absolutely critical that you make your voice heard during this process. Not me, us, that is the only way forward in solidarity, Bernie Sanders. So obviously, Emily, this caught a lot of attention because it is very critical of the Democratic Party, says like, are they going to get their act together?

probably not going to happen. Right. So where do we go from here? And, you know, one of the things he floats is, Hey, do we support candidates? He doesn't name check Dan Osborne. We have to think that that's somewhere in mind who ran as an independent, but as a populist and came very close to winning in a Senate seat in Nebraska. How do we get more working class people in and the theory that, you know, the possibility here.

of a third-party movement is also sort of overtly floated, so quite noteworthy coming from someone who still holds so much sway and so much influence. Well, and what he is saying is what we heard the voters say in Griffin's segment, which is the big theme to take away from that is people voted for change. They voted for change. They voted for change. And you don't tell people that you are a change agent effectively if you are Kamala Harris and you are defending

The Biden administration's policy is now we can have a debate about whether Donald Trump is actually going to change Washington, but he convinces people that he is. That is his overarching message, that he is bringing fundamental change, not, as Bernie put it, tweaking around the edges or tinkering around the edges with different policies. It's not enough to talk about a child tax credit. You have to talk about why the system has created an environment

where you need a child tax credit, where you need the government saying, oh, here, take a little bit more of your own damn money, have a little bit more of it back for childcare, have a little bit more of it back to pay for your babies. That is the problem with the Democratic Party right now, just assuming that's enough.

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. And I can harp on this, but I think Bernie is a model, a very unique model in American politics, not in global politics, but in American politics in particular, where I would love to know what those same ladies would say. If we ask them, what do you think about Bernie Sanders? Because I think even though he's stylistically very different from Trump, very different than AOC, also though a New York character,

Yes. Interesting parallel there, but you know that people had that same sense of him. This is a fighter. This is someone who is focused on me and my life and is going to go to war against the forces that are arrayed against me and my family and are making life more difficult than they should be.

for me and for my kids to be able to find success. I mean, the immediate question that this race is, okay, Bernie Sanders, 83 years old, like, what does this mean? What is he planning? And, you know, people have floated, like, is he gonna launch a third party? Is that what this is leading to? I think that's probably very unlikely. Just given, you know, Bernie has been in politics for longer than either one of us has been alive by decades, right?

He knows that in the reality of the American system, like there's a reason that he was able to run as an independent, but caucuses with Democrats and ultimately ran as a Democrat in the Democratic Party, because there are just so many barriers to an independent or third party movement, especially in the post-Ross Perot era.

being able to find any sort of significant success. I mean, if anyone could make it happen, it would be Bernie Sanders because he still does have that, you know, that base and that affection and that media and star power, et cetera, to command. I personally think it's unlikely that at this point in his life he's going to go in that direction, but I am curious to see what he has in mind.

for his next deck. I can tell you, I saw him speak, gosh, what, last week, week before? I can't remember. Anyway, I saw him speak recently, and he's still got it, let me tell you. There is no mental decline there going on. He is 83 years old, but mentally, he is still extremely sharp and extremely powerful. So this could be a really interesting development here.

he should be threatening them with it. Even if he's not serious, it's like Trump with tariffs. Like he should absolutely be threatening a third party because someone has to put the fear of God into the Democratic elite. And they will, I mean, it's the same thing that Republicans are dealing with in the MAGA age, whereas like Donald Trump, not so serious about draining the swamp on some issues, but like the Department of Justice, oh, he's very serious about throwing a metaphorical grenade into the Department of Justice. And so what you see is this internal battle.

over, you know, people like Bernie Sanders were legitimately a threat to the Democratic Party establishment, Donald Trump, who's legitimately a threat to the Republican Party establishment, even eight years into Trumpism and the Republican Party, it is still a tug-of-war between the establishment, like RNC-type elites that say they own this party, and they'll give Trump a little here and there. They'll say nice things about him and public, but they're still going to battle for it. You know, they're going to protect their people at the end of the day.

So it's obviously not easy, and it's a decade-plus-long process if you really want to reform the party, and who knows what happens to the Republican Party after Trump, and who knows even under Trump what happens to the Republican Party this next time around. But he's right to make the threat, because if you don't make the threat, they have no incentive to do anything, as we are about to discuss with Bill Clinton's reaction.

Yes, that is exactly right. And just before I get to that, I think, you know, on the one hand, one of the things that has always made it more difficult for a Bernie Sanders style, like left populist movement to succeed is that it offers a direct threat to, you know, billionaire oligarchic class interests, like that's central to the vision and ideology.

Trumpism is less of a direct threat and in fact they did quite well under Trump in the first term and I think felt very comfortable with him going into a second term. So when you have not only the Democratic establishment forces but sort of like uniformed capital class arrayed against you that obviously creates more challenging landscape. But on the other hand, you know,

Trump has, Trump is a destroyer. This is one of the things I want to talk about in my monologue. And he has kind of destroyed a lot of the liberal institutions that served as a bulwark against a left populist movement. I mean, MSNBC is the primary case in point here. They were enforcers. Right.

for establishment Democrats. And because liberals still had so much faith in these institutions, they were very powerful. So when they in 2020 said, Joe Biden is the one, and that's it. You have never seen the polls shift as rapidly as they did in favor of Joe Biden to coalesce behind him, to defeat Bernie Sanders in that primary after a look like Bernie was headed to a victory after Nevada. I mean, in 2016, obviously,

They were all aligned behind Hillary Clinton. That was also extremely powerful. And that institutional trust with liberals has really been broken and degraded. And the institutions themselves have really been broken and degraded. So there just isn't as much there to block some other left movement. Now, do I think that that is what's likely to unfold and that the Democratic Party is likely to be taken over by a left populist movement or third party to arise or whatever? I don't think it's likely.

But there is a possibility that exists now that did not exist in the past. And I think that's what Bernie Sanders is sensing and seizing on as well because those bulwark institutions within that protected the Democratic Party establishment

have been dealt in a devastating blow by their own, malfeasance, their own failures to grapple with Trumpism and effectively defeat Trumpism, which was the central promise that they were offering. They were not doing health care or wages or whatever. Their central promise was we are going to end the Trump era. They failed.

And that has really been a devastating blow for their credibility and their institutional trust. So it is a totally new world with new possibilities out there than there was before. They failed, and they failed even harder. I mean, this was the same moment that everyone could recognize in 2016 and 2017. And Bernie Sanders recognized it then. And you have the former Secretary of State, this huge figure for decades in democratic politics.

getting beat by the host of celebrity apprentice. He was hosting celebrity apprentice less than a year before. I mean, I guess just under two years before, but I mean, that is it. It should have been the wake up call and then said they doubled down on Russia and bigotry and blaming voters. And so this isn't there at another one of those crossroads. And you know, Bill Clinton seems to be ready to go in one down one direction.

Clinton of all people, by the way, who was sounding the alarm in 2016 about them not leaning into class politics, about his own wife's campaign not leaning into class politics and getting their clock cleaned in certain areas that should have been problematic to them. And he's, you know, he's ready to... I thought this answer was kind of interesting. It was a little... When I listened to it was a little different than what I expected from him. So let's go ahead and play this exchange with Jonathan Capehart and former President Bill Clinton, and then we can react on the other side.

in demonizing all establishments and all people wear a tie like you and me to work and have a good education. We are breaking down the legitimacy of not only

people who might be too sanctimonious and too sad in their ways in the past, but also people who actually know things that are very important for us today and very important for our continued growth and prosperity and harmony.

So it is a little bit of a mask off moment there because Bill Clinton has always positioned himself as a populist, even as he embraced an ideology that was frankly very technocratic. Totally. And I mean, that's really is that the core of neoliberalism is an anti populist sentiment of just hand it off to the technocrats and let us handle it. Yeah.

And I do think it's important that you have people who are smart and knowledgeable and know what they're doing and done the research and all of those sorts of things. But here he really is aligning himself as he in reality did in his campaign and in his political time with the buttoned up credentialed elites.

There was another moment where Capehart asked him this question that I thought was kind of, I didn't think the question was really fair, the framing of it. He says to him, Bernie Sanders says the party wasn't progressive enough to you agree.

And Bill Clinton first says like, no, I don't agree. And they did the chips act and the infrastructure bill. And this was in red areas. But what I think Bernie's talking about is corporate power. And on that, he basically says like, I think he's right. And so it was kind of interesting to me that Bill Clinton in a sense kind of corrected Capehart that like, well, his critique. And Bernie never says like the party wasn't progressive enough. He says the party abandoned the working class.

and did not fight against these oligarchic forces. And Bill Clinton is in his own way, sort of like, well, there's a part of that I do actually agree with. It's interesting because if you look at the policies of the Clinton administration, I mean, what he talked about this all the time, what he ushered in was sort of the corporate era of the Democratic Party. Yes. And what I think is almost poetic about that is if you spend a lot of time around working class before people

The point about the suit and the button-up thing is really fascinating because, yes, like, Sagar and I have talked about this before. It is the John Federman thing, like, irks me a lot because as much as I see him like kind of, what he wears, like cosplaying is like a working class dude. If you are, if you go to anybody in those communities, they'll be like, yeah, you damn well better wear a suit. Like, if you, you know what I mean? Like, that's a sign of like, that's what Bill Clinton is reacting to that. Like, even he grew up with nothing.

Truly. And that was a sign of respect. It was a sign of, like, you made it. Like, you should be proud about upward mobility because that means you did something right. And it means you worked really hard and you, like, got to where you were and you have respect for the position. And the assumption that, you know, you have to be walking around in a t-shirt to, you know, impress people in which the class communities is, like, insulting. That's not what Donald Trump does. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Like, Mitt Romney would go to Iowa State Fair with his

rolled off books, brothers, shirts. It's like disgust. And so Bill Clinton saying that is interesting to me because it gets to this point about, I don't know, I'm gonna sound like, we should have Ryan's Lennon book behind us.

class traders where Bill Clinton comes from nothing works really hard and becomes very successful, becomes a president of the United States and is now looking back at why people don't trust guys and ties like Griffin. The answer to that is because the guys in ties sold them out. They came from nothing and they ushered in this era. It wasn't just that.

but then collaborated with it. The thing that drives me crazy about Bill Clinton, I mean, first of all, the decision to send him to Michigan and to, you know, make just insane comments about Israel and Palestine. And I mean, it just like, can we retire this man at this point? Come on. But the deeper problem- He's saying a new memoir, by the way. That's why he was on the new tour. Interesting. Yeah. The deeper, maybe he'll come here or wouldn't that be interesting? The deeper problem is that Bill Clinton signed NAFTA.

No, Bill Clinton pushed PNT, Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China. Like, you want to talk about what devastated the working class that you want to talk about what cemented the working class shift away from Democrats, you would be hard pressed to find two more consequential events in that timeline.

And so for him to come out now and be like, you know, the corporate power thing, maybe these got a point. It's like you helped to author, you were the primary author in a lot of ways of this era of mass inequality and rampant corporate power and monopolies. And by the way, he helped you regulate Wall Street. And by the way, he, you know, cut the capital gains rate, all giant giveaways to the wealthiest among us.

that spiraled inequality out of control and that decimated, decimated vast swaths of the country. You were the author of that. And there's just never been any real reckoning with that. He's still treated as this brilliant political strategist and elder statesmen, et cetera. But your point about the class trader piece of it, the suits and the disrespect

that that can read as sometimes when you're trying to cosplay as working class by wearing the flannel or whatever. In that book that I've referenced a couple times because I've found a lot of parallels to the current time but about the back to the land movement in the 1970s.

The hippies in this town in Vermont who had their commune and they're doing their whole like we reject hygiene and our parents were these stiffs wearing suits and we're not going to do any of that. They were trying to get a job as school bus drivers in the town and they had maintained pretty good relations with their neighbors and there were a lot of them a lot of the people in the community were like kind of okay with it and but there was a pushback because they found out like oh you guys are growing weed and we don't

really want you driving. So there was this town meeting that comes to a head where they're coming in to make their case for why they should be the school bus driver for this little town. And everybody in this little town, conservative, like, you know, rural farming community, they all show up to this town meeting in their Sunday. Because it's respectful.

and hippies who many of him came from these affluent professional middle class or upper middle class families. So interesting. They're sort of donning poverty as like a fashion statement, show up all dirty and muddy and smelly and hair and crazy and whatever. And right, and there was something about that that also, I mean, that really rubbed people the wrong way of like, this is not, it's not cool and earthy that you're like this, it's disrespectful.

to, you know, to our town and our traditions and, you know, this meaning that we take really seriously. And so, I don't know, the the Federman cosplay thing and the way that so many of these politicians try to cosplay something that they're not. I do think comes off as phony and candidates worse come off as just like insulting insulting. Yeah, it's like we believe that this office has dignity, don't you? We believe that. And like just the superficial signaling via clothing, it's

It's Bill Clinton, I think the big problem with that interview is him still pointing the finger at Republicans and podcasters, you know that's what he's doing, pointing the finger at them for making people distrust the guys in suits instead of pointing his finger at the guys in suits.

for creating that distrust. That's right. Because that would implicate him. Right. Because he's the one that put those guys in suits in the place to do all of that damage. I mean, he's one of them. Right. So the guys who, and maybe Bill Clinton thought he was doing what was right. Just hypothetically, maybe he thought he was doing what was right and it wasn't about serving the class that he came to be a part of.

If you are still pointing your finger at Donald Trump, Republican Party disinformation, podcasters, for making the American people not trust the men in suits and ties and the women in suits, not usually ties, but the professional class. If you're still pointing your finger at Republicans and podcasters and the unwashed masses for not trusting them instead of pointing the finger at yourself, you do not get it.

Yeah, no, I think that's right. All right, let's go ahead and get to some of these Trump cabinet picks, Emily, that are quite interesting.

Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stand. Anya and I met through hockey and now we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness in between.

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Well, look at the scoring. I think it should be one, two, three, four. How do you get new kids in the game? I mean, they come to watch, and I've never been in tennis, and my coach starts saying, well, let me explain the scoring. It's 15 love, 30 love. I go, I know, 45, right? They go, no. And I'm 11 years old, and I said to him, this is the stupidest, great English, the stupidest thing I've ever been.

Now, I know I'm like a lot of kids. I don't come from tennis. My family's not in tennis. And if you are in tennis, as a child, you still want to make it fun. And I think when you start tennis, you should be put on a team. Just put them on a team. They can be a great team. Make it less individual from the beginning. Because it's about relationships.

To hear more from the legend herself, Billie Jean King, on my show, Good Game with Sarah Spain, be sure to listen to this episode of Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or every Get Your Podcasts. Hey, I'm Jackie's Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit. The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jackie's Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts

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As of Friday night and typical Trumpian fashion, the entire cabinet was completed. So Donald Trump's entire cabinet is now known to us. You can go ahead and put the first element up on the screen in control room. The political describes it as a Friday night flurry. And, you know, it kind of was. There were a lot of nighttime flurries, actually, in the entire naming of the cabinet crystal.

But the big one, obviously, is Pam Bondi. We can go ahead and put the next element up on the screen. Arguably the most important position in Donald Trump's entire cabinet with the exception of maybe Secretary of State, which is probably most important in any cabinet, but given Donald Trump's plans, the Attorney General position is just absolutely critical. Pam Bondi is slotted in after Matt Gates' withdrawals.

Pam Bondi was the Attorney General of Florida. So she then went on to lobby. There's a lot to talk about here with the Pam Bondi nomination in particular. Want to show just a little bit of a flavor of how Pam Bondi Florida has been one of the most important locations for this debate over campus, anti-Semitism versus pro-Palestinian activism because University of Florida was headed by Ben Sasse. Ron DeSantis obviously wanted to be a big part of that discussion as well.

And Pam Bondi weighed in once, so just as a flavor of what could happen from the Department of Justice under Pam Bondi, let's go ahead and rule B3. Pam, Democrats like Alan Dershowitz have sounded the alarm over the growing virulent strain of Jew haters in the Democrat party. It appears their agents in the unfair press are carrying that water. It is dangerous, is it not?

Yeah, it's very dangerous. Chris, it's extremely dangerous. And, you know, you look around at the thing that really was troubling to me, these students in universities in our country, whether they're here as Americans or if they're here on student visas, and they're out there saying, I support Hamas, you and I have seen that on all of these television shows. Frankly, they need to be taken out of our country, or the FBI needs to be interviewing them right away when they're saying I support Hamas,

I am Hamas. That's not saying I support all these poor Palestinians who are trapped in Gaza. That's not what they're saying. So I think their student visas need to be revoked. I think we need to reinstate President Trump's travel ban immediately. There's a lot of things that can be done to stop the anti-Semitism that is rampant throughout this country now. And it's truly, truly heartbreaking.

to see what's happening to all of our Jewish friends in this country. But I really just, I think a lot of ignorant kids and students and people who don't understand that Hamas equals terrorism, even worse, at its worst. So something I think particularly disturbing about that crystal is she just said ignorant kids don't understand that Hamas equals terrorism. And so let's just take her out her word, hypothetically. She then wants to deport kids for ignorance.

Right. She wants to take away people's students, even in her own formulation of what's happening there. It's, you know, your ignorance then gets your student visa ripped away or something to that effect. And the Department of Justice oversees a lot of these questions. So just a flavor of the free speech support from Donald Trump's likely incoming attorney general, Pam Bondi is very confirmable. She probably won't have issues. But what's interesting about her? No sex trafficking scandals with this one.

Not that we know, not yet. But what's interesting about her, and this applies to other Trump nominees, but this is someone who we can put the next element up on the screen, actually, because it's what I was about to talk about. She has a long past as a lobbyist. She's lobbied for Qatar. She worked at one of the firms. I think she worked actually at one of the firms that Susie Wiles worked

She's similar to Susie Wiles and the respect that she's full MAGA, but also has like pretty, it's deeply intertwined with the swamp, if that makes sense. So she's a Fox News favorite, she is a lobbyist, and yet she also is, she went and she defended Donald Trump during his impeachment trial, like was part of his legal team. She's totally loyal to Trump. She's also intertwined with the swamp.

Yeah, that's kind of typical in terms of Trump's world because ultimately it's much less ideological than it is about how do you feel about the person of Donald Trump? What are you willing to do to stand up for the person of Donald Trump when he feels that he's being attacked or unfairly targeted, et cetera? And so the fact that she represented him as first impeachment trial, that has earned her good graces.

in the Trump world, you know, and the fact that she's a corporate lobbyist for Amazon, GM, Uber, multiple finance firms, according to Ken Vogel, she's still registered for some clients, not really big deal. The other thing that was pointed out on Twitter is the fact that her sister, who's also a lawyer, actually represented Elon Musk,

in his case against the government in terms of the Tesla securities fraud allegations. And so as Attorney General, she would be in a position to quash that ongoing DOJ investigation and, you know, given how much influence the richest man on the planet.

has in terms of this administration. I don't think anyone should be surprised if you see that ultimately happen. You know, going back to her comments about deporting pro-Palestine protesters and or at the very least having them be interviewed by the FBI. I guess that was her compromise position. If we can't kick them all out of the country, at least we can harass them with the with the deep state.

In spite of Republicans positioning themselves as the free speech party, obviously there has been a giant glaring exception when it comes to any sort of pro-Palestine speech. And one of the things I want to talk about in my monologue about MSNBC and some of the Democrats who say they're going to find common ground with Republicans and with Trump specifically, this is one of the areas where you can fully expect Democrats and they already have been finding quote unquote

common ground with with Trump with his nominees with Republicans Because this you know which hunt to snuff out anti-Semitism and to crack down on speech on college campuses has been quite a bipartisan affair So I don't think any of that will be a problem for her certainly with Republicans or with Democrats and you know it is interesting the sorts of things that are not a problem whatsoever and

When it comes to confirmation, the fact that she is a total swamp pick doesn't really matter. I think she will be easily confirmed. It is also kind of funny that on the one hand, she's like making all these noises about shipping out Pro Palace time protesters. And on the other hand, she lobbies for good. I mean, yeah. I'd love to hear it because she's registered to lobby for them.

on behalf of like human trafficking as an issue, because you have to say when you register for FARA what you're doing. And she says human trafficking and other issues. So I would be curious to hear more about her lobbying for Qatar. And I expect some of that will come out during her confirmation. But she also came in on the Tea Party wave. That's really where I remember her. She started doing a ton of Fox after that. I think she got an endorsement from Sarah Palin early on. So she comes from that world, which is its own kind of part of the conservative movement.

mattered a lot back in 2020. I want to say it was like around 2010, something like that. Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, it was a big deal to get Sarah Palin endorsement back then. And she really rode that wave in. And so you can understand how being in Florida, she was able to be pretty friendly in the mega circles and then ultimately ends up defending Donald Trump as part of his legal team, goes back to lobbying afterwards and now will be attorney general probably. Yeah, looking like it, looking very much like it.

But wait, there's more. Yeah, there's a lot more. B5, we can put this up on the screen. Scott Besson is the Treasury Secretary. We're going to talk about some others too. But this is Elon Musk weighed in in favor of Howard Lutnik in the Lutnik versus Bessent race for Treasury Secretary. Lutnik obviously ended up as Commerce Secretary. Elon Musk was seemingly suspicious of Bessent as being sort of a swampy type of person that wouldn't be a disruptor. He said Lutnik would be a disruptor.

He kind of went out of his way not to say anything super negative about Bessent, maybe reading the tea leaves on that. But I mean, he would be right with Bessent's background to be suspicious of that. The New York Times story that you just saw up on the screen is how Bessent went from being a Democratic donor to Trump's treasury secretary pick, which actually, it's funny they say that because that's not unusual in Trump world at all. A lot of the people that he's put in top positions

are swampy. Trump himself is a Democratic donor and has said that's how you got things done. So not surprising really. What is your sense of Scott Bessent because I've seen different things. I've seen him is going on CNBC to basically reassure Wall Street like, well, Trump's not really serious about this hole across the board. Terrifying.

That's more of an opening negotiating position to try to coerce people into making better trade deals with us and trying to calm the waters of Wall Street. He's very trusted there. I mean, the other thing that's really funny about him is he worked closely with George Soros, made a lot of money working closely with George Soros. He's described in this New York Times story as a protégé of George Soros.

That's right. Yeah. And I think that that is quite accurate. So that's the other part about this. That is quite funny. I mean, he is definitely a Wall Street figure, but I do think he's been somewhat open to at least some use of tariffs and sees that as a path forward, even as he, because he's such a familiar face on Wall Street, has been able to kind of calm the waters of business executives and Wall Street executives to say like, yeah, he's not going to go too crazy with this whole tariff situation.

Yeah, and that's really important, I think, because part of the reporting about how Trump was looking at this decision is that he was worried about spooking the markets because he takes that as a referendum on the president. He talks about it all the time, and so he was worried that someone completely out of the blue would be disruptive to the markets and would thus make him look bad.

I guess logical through that framework of what Donald Trump was thinking for. And as the Times reports, in recent months, Mr. Bessent has pitched a quote 333 plan that would aim for 3% economic growth, growth reduced the budget deficit to 3% of gross domestic product, and increased domestic oil production by 3 million barrels a day. He also came up with an idea, and this is interesting, that would allow the president to essentially sideline the chair of the Federal Reserve, although he has backed down from that proposal in the face of opposition.

that obviously would be music to Donald Trump's ear and you can kind of understand why. Bessent was able to have a great pitch to Trump. Yeah, absolutely. So that'll be interesting to see how that plays out. And, you know, we talked to Jeff Stein, a great economics reporter for The Washington Post. He has been of the opinion that, you know, when Trump says consistently, we want to have across the board tariffs that you should take him seriously at that. And that, you know, the implications of that, which would likely raise prices kind of across the board.

and be quite inflationary, but they have already been looking at what sort of powers they could use just at the executive level without having to go through Congress to implement something approaching and across the board tariff. So in any case, we'll see how that all plays out, but Treasury

Very significant, very high powered, very influential. So that was a really important pick that was made there. Another one that this one is very kind of like under the radar super powerful important in government. And that's the head of the office of management and budget. Russ vote of project 2025. No less has been tagged in for that one. We can put B6 up on the screen.

Trump's pick to lead his budget office, Mother Jones writes, wants to use it to deliver on MAGA's big dreams. Emily, why don't you break this one down for us? What Russ is all about, what his deal is? Yeah, so Russ is also kind of the tea party to MAGA pipeline. He's someone who I actually, as an ideological conservative, like a lot, but if you're looking at the screen, the Mother Jones tagline, there's quote, we want to put them in trauma. Russ Voatt has said of federal workers. Yes, that is absolutely- He's an ideological warrior.

Yeah, way, way hardcore on some of those questions and has spent actually the last several years. He has something called the Center for Renewing America, figuring out what the blueprint for whether it was DeSantis or Trump or someone else, what that would look like. And so he did contribute to Project 2025 and is among the people who were leading this charge that were saying,

The next Republican president has like the rarest opportunity to just go wild. Like everything that the conservative movement said that it wanted to do in the 1980s under the Reagan Revolution, it has never come to fruition. And that is because the swamp has like attached itself to the conservative movement. So let's just blow it all up. And here's the outline to do that. And so, Bruss is like an absolute leader in that movement and a very like hardcore ideologue in that movement, which will

run a clip in just a second, getting to that. But yeah, if you listen to that as a recline show, this was predicted by someone at this table. Interesting. Well, I mean, you weren't buying the Trump has nothing to do with Project 2025 and has no interest in Project 2025. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, people like Russ have spent millions of dollars over the last couple of years trying to figure out what this would look like. He's put tons of energy into what this would look like. And if you're a federal worker, yes, you should be pretty frightened that Russ Vod is now in this position because as the head of the OMB, which he was under Trump's first administration, you are in charge of implementing the budget. You're in charge of thinking about the budget, implementing the budget.

So you're looking, I mean, that's where doge, that's all of those recommendations. That's where Russ can go and implement them. And he has concrete plans that he's talked with lawyers about, that he's spent like time in think tank circles conceiving of over the last few years. So he's hardcore very much.

And he's one of the big thinkers behind quote-unquote schedule F, which would allow, which would strip a lot of the job protections away from vast wass of the federal government, basically making it easier to decimate these agencies and fire a whole bunch of workers and reinstall loyalists to Trump and loyalists to the agenda. We do have this like hidden camera video actually of Russ Vo talking about some of his

priorities. And this was before Trump was elected. So he's also talking about his relationship to Project 2025 and saying he says effectively, like, yeah, don't worry about the fact that Trump is downplaying this. Obviously, it's just a branding issue for him. But don't worry. We're in good stead. We're in position to implement everything that we want to, which anyone with three brain cells could see. At the time, in any case, let's take a listen to a little bit of what Russ has to say about what he wants to accomplish.

He talks about rape, incest, life and mother. I don't actually believe in those exceptions. I want to get to abolition, but I also, we got to win elections. And so I want to get as far as we possibly can. His view of who should be an American. So I want to make sure that we can say we're a Christian nation. And my viewpoint is mostly that I would probably be Christian nation is

That's pretty close to Christian nationalism. Can we, if we're going to have legal immigration, can we get people that actually believe in Christianity? Is that something or do we have to have, you know, we're not allowed to have asked questions about Sharia law? What could we see America looking like, I guess? I mean, in an ideal world, I mean, I think we could save the country in a sense of

You have the largest deportation in history. And even pornography. We'd have a national ban on pornography for good, right? National ban on pornography. Here we come. Which, by the way, he can't do it on beach. You never know. But, you know, obviously, as you said, Emily, what comes across there is this is an ideological warrior and across the board, hard right. You know, he says, I get Trump's got to take talk about these exceptions for rape, incest, the life of the mother when it comes to abortion. I don't actually support those.

exceptions, but what are you going to do? You got to win elections. Um, you know, he talks about let's have the largest deportation in history, just very, very ideological year. And, you know, that is significant when you have someone in, like you said, a position that is quite consequential in terms of the budget.

He's also, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Emily, been one of the thinkers who has supported this idea that even if Congress appropriates funds, there's no obligation for the executive to spend them. That means that you would have unilateral ability to cut whatever you want. So contrary to this notion that what Elon and Vivek are doing is like this make-work project, on the contrary, if there actually is the power for the executive unilaterally to cut

you know, slash social safety net programs and everything in between, you know, Russ would be, we would expect Russ to be very involved in helping to implement those cuts throughout the federal government. So having someone like that in this position is quite consequential. That is such an important point. This is becoming a really raging debate on the right because people are starting to realize that they actually have the power to do this. It's not like an abstract conversation anymore about whether the president can override congressional

expenditures or congressional prescriptions for spending basically because of the separation of powers. So like can the president say this is a congressionally passed mandate? We're not doing it though. That's an enormous power. And just to put a like bow on this conversation, Rust vote is not just like a Pam Bondi type person who understands the temperature and will go along with the temperature. She's a finger in the wind type. Exactly.

Yeah. He's an architect of this on an ideological level. And most of his philosophy that he'll be able to implement and that what is like really guiding him is super against DEI spending. He'll be super against like the waste fraud and abuse that you hear Elon and Vivek talking about.

He's a tea party kind of limited government guy. He was around in those times. And that informs it, but he's now very MAGA as well. So it's about the sort of reforming the American government along the lines of what the conservative movements like fantasy has looked like because they feel like they've never had the power and the will to actually implement it. So hugely consequential appointments, your point, like a little under the radar, but a very consequential appointment for Trump loyalists.

And I think to me, what we're seeing taking shape is a very different Trump administration than what we saw in 2016. Even as Russ was in the similar position, last night, he was in the same position, last time around. But in the off season, they have been preparing. They've been thinking about

Okay, what did we learn last time? What stood in our way of accomplishing our most maximalist goals? And even though Trump didn't even get 50% of the vote, he feels that he has this overwhelming mandate to blow everything up. And so I think contrary to a lot of the analysis that you saw from Wall Street and even from some Trump allies, even from his own,

transition co-chair Howard Lutnik that like how these things he's saying like he's not really going to put RFK junior at H.A. He's not really going to do across the board tariffs. He's not really going to blow up the federal bureaucracy. He's not really going to get rid of the Department of Education. I think that the things he said on the trail

including Elon Musk saying, I'm going to cut $2 trillion from the budget now. Is he going to be able to cut $2 trillion when that is more than all of the discretionary budget in the entire federal government budget? Probably not. But I think you should take seriously the things the maximalist plans that Trump laid out on the campaign trail

because there have been people like Russ vote out there in the off-season thinking about, okay, if we get another chance, next time around, what are we going to start with? And emblematic of that is, you know, they didn't start going down this Schedule F path until the very end of Trump's term. Exactly. Last time around, so it wasn't really time to, like, get it spun up and get it implemented. This time, they're coming out of the gates with the Matt Gates, perhaps.

I don't know, Crystal, no. Coming out of the gates with those plans in place and have thought a lot about, okay, what can we do where we don't even need to consult Congress? What can we do to make sure that any institution, whether it was the military or the Senate or the DOJ that stood in our way last time around, what can we do to make sure those roadblocks are out of the way this time? And I think we should take seriously the things that Trump said on the campaign trail.

Yeah, I mean, just the last point on the whole Rust Belt thing is we talked about this last week. I do think that there's going to be an impulse to overreach because the sense that there's a mandate and the American people are on board with gutting the bureaucracy in the abstract. That may be true. I mean, it may be like people just got to go and shake up Washington during the swamp. But when it's actually playing out, that'll be another story. And again, I think people

like Russ vote. And I know people that are like in that orbit, they are stealing themselves for just like making those hard decisions that won't necessarily be responsive to public pressure or public opinion. And Donald Trump is another story. I mean, to the extent he interferes with what's happening at OMB, you know, he'll make sure that they're doing what they want to do.

But he also doesn't have to run for reelections anymore. So he doesn't really even have to care at all about public opinion. And, you know, I mean, we saw this last time around as well after he's elected in 2016 and tries to implement, you know, some of the

aggressive anti-immigrant policies that he had run on. There was a huge backlash and actually being pro-immigration was like never more popular than it was under Donald Trump because when people saw what this meant in reality, when they saw kids, you know, crying and separated from their parents and orphaned and just the human cruelty that that entailed, the public had no stomach for that. So, you know, it's one thing to

to theoretically, you know, it sounds like, okay, get the waste, fraud, and abuse sound of government. All right, that sounds good. Who doesn't support that? But when it's like, oh, and now, you know, you don't have a WIC budget to be able to feed babies formula, then it turns into a very different matter when the rubber hits the road.

Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stand. Anya and I met through hockey and now we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness in between.

We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice like FIFA World Cup winner Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was going to be. And Peloton instructor and a ratchet mom club founder, Kirsten Ferguson. And I remember going in there a hot mess. So listen to moms who puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeartWomen's Sports. Hey, everyone. It's Sarah Spain from Good Game with Sarah Spain, and we're in the beautiful city of Malaga, Spain, where we just watched Team Italy win the Billy Jean King Cup. Before the final, we got a chance to sit down with Billy Jean herself. Take a listen.

Well, look at the scoring. I think it should be one, two, three, four. How do you get new kids in the game? I mean, they come to watch, and I've never been in tennis, and my coach starts saying, well, let me explain the scoring. It's 15 love, 30 love. I go, I know, 45, right? They got no. And I'm 11 years old, and I said to him, this is the stupidest, great English, the stupidest thing I've ever been.

Now, I know I'm like a lot of kids. I don't come from tennis. My family's not in tennis. And if you are in tennis, as a child, you still want to make it fun. And I think when you start tennis, you should be put on a team. Just put them on a team. They can be a great team. Make it less individual from the beginning. Because it's about relationships.

To hear more from the legend herself, Billie Jean King, on my show, Good Game with Sarah Spain, be sure to listen to this episode of Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or every Get Your Podcasts. Hey, I'm Jackie's Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit. The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jackie's Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts

Dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories, Black Lit is for the Page Turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters.

From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. BlackLit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to BlackLit on the iHeartVideo app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaking of the rubber hitting the road, we couldn't do the show today without giving you a little taste of what Matt Gaetz has been up to in the last, I don't know, crystal 72 hours. He's a busy man. Yeah. Most fast on the next thing. Most fast on the next thing. Immediately after withdrawing, basically, from the Attorney General confirmation process, he joined Cameo as one does in these scenarios. In these times.

Yes, because he will not be returning to the House seat. He actually won reelection, so he technically could have, he resigned from this Congress, but not from the next Congress. So he technically could have taken the seat back and we wanted to, but he doesn't want to, maybe because he wants to run for Florida governor, or maybe because in 2024 in the United States of America, it's way more fun to be on Cameo. So more fun to be an influencer. Take a look at Matt Gates talking to a longtime patriot on Cameo.

Hey, Lisa Kovac. It's your favorite former Congressman Matt Gaetz. I just wanted to thank you for being a longtime patriot for supporting President Trump through thick and thin. And I know you were bummed out with a news broke that I wouldn't be the next attorney general. We did get a great replacement in Pam Bondi. She's going to do an awesome job. You have nothing to worry about. But hey, listen, I'm still going to be in the fight for you and your family.

And I know things are tough right now dealing with your car and Bruce and I wish him a very speedy recovery. So next time you visit Florida, as everyone should do very frequently, make sure to pay a visit with your lovely aunt Kathy, stop by and say hello. Also say hello to your mother Carol for me and have a Merry Christmas. Have a great Thanksgiving. Enjoy your family. And this is just such an exciting time to be an American.

We've got the House. We've got the Senate. We've got Donald Trump in the presidency. We're going to actually fix the problems. We're going to secure the border, clean up our streets, get the economy roaring again. So we've got a lot to be thankful for. I think he's going.

It's $500 plus. That's what's listed as the price right now. It was originally $250, you know, I guess demand surged and he had up the price there. He has 12 reviews, all five stars. So he's most popular for a pep talk and roasts.

So, if you're interested, Matt Gaetz, and you have 500 plus dollars lying around, one of the funny things I think is him being excited about the Pam Bondi pic, because one of the things, which talked about this before, that Matt Gaetz is actually very good on, is like swampy-ness. He's completely consistent on like congressional stock trading, on foreign entanglements, on all of those like serious and important things that nobody else wants to talk about or take seriously.

Pam Bondi, of course, is now coming from work as a cutter lobbyist. And Matt Gaise is like, excellent pick. It's just, you know, that's, that's MAGA world. Yeah, that is MAGA world. No, I mean, I think with Pam Bondi, and there are any hope that there's going to be like increased antitrust action or where like that's definitely.

not happening whatsoever. Maybe on tech it's possible, it's possible that on like Google or something, something where the scene is like an ideological adversary, but even there's like, even Bill Bard at that. Even there though, you know, all the tech people also bent the knee to Trump. Like they also have done what they need to do to get in his good graces. So I don't expect it there either, but you never know what direction they'll ultimately go in.

I did think it was noteworthy that Gates decided to pull out of this process and basically was like, look, according to the reporting, Trump came to him and was like, look, you just don't have the votes. Now, why is that significant? Well, because it's an indication that they're not just going to go to the mat and try to do recess appointments for all of these picks.

And Gates is not the only one who could potentially face trouble getting confirmed. RFK Jr. I think is a question mark, although I think there's a decent chance he'll get through. Pete Headseth is the other one that I would say is a question mark at this point. There may be others as well. In fact, actually, the Department of Labor had his pro-union Republican might be...

It might weirdly be enough be a problem, although I suspect that enough Democrats would cross a vote for her that that would mitigate any problem that she might have from the right wing with regard to her confirmation. But it was noteworthy to me that it was effectively a sign of backing down.

from their most aggressive posture of basically like, you're going to accept whatever nominees we're going to put up. You're going to vote for them. And if you aren't willing to vote for them, we're just going to shove them through in a recess appointment. So I found that to be an important indication of how these things are going to play out.

That's a good point. And with Gates, I think it really underscores that the reason, I mean, it's true he didn't have the votes. This was not 40 chests to the extent that I can tell. It wasn't like this brilliant plot to get Matt Gates in a better position to run for Florida governor. We can actually put B9 on the screen.

This is Matt Gaetz's resignation letter to Mike Johnson saying, basically, I'm not going to take the oath of office for the same position in the 119th Congress. So that would be when that happens in January. So I don't think that this was an attempt to set him up and say, we know he's not going to get through, but we'll elevate him. And then he can have a glide path to some other position.

But the other theory was also like, oh, he'll take the heat off the other ones and make it easier for them to get confirmed. Which I think actually may partially be part of the calculation. I don't know. To me, it makes sense that they realized it would be a really tough one. Donald Trump would love to have Matt Gaetz as attorney general. There's no question about it. And I think part of it was he wanted to smoke out the senators and sort of see where certain people like Mitch McConnell is a really good example, reportedly one of the people who would not have been voting for Matt Gaetz. There's no surprise about that at all.

I think Trump partially wanted to test, first of all, John Thune in his first literal week as Senate Majority Leader, or he will be, yeah, a Senate Majority Leader. And so he partially wanted to test the waters on that. He wanted to see what Gates could do if it was possible. But then also, he now can say, oh, Mitch McConnell, you weren't voting for Matt Gates. OK, that's interesting.

And that guy coming in in Utah was another one, Curtis, who's replacing Mitt Romney in the Senate was another one who reportedly was not going to vote for Matt Gates. It's an important piece of information for the Trump people to know. And I think the other thing to just cap that is, and the point that you're making is this is the most important position as Donald Trump sees it. Like if this was the state's apartment, I think Donald Trump and his allies might have kept going, even though that's a hugely consequential position.

because they want to have everybody in place at the Department of Justice on day one. They do not want there to be any time wasted with the DOJ. That is the one agency that they are laser focused on more than any other because that is when Donald Trump says, I am your retribution, that is firmly directed at the DOJ. So my sense of this is that they realized it would be uncertain what would happen with gates through the holidays and then into January and

just like, this is not worth our time at all. We need to have somebody who will be confirmed and can start saying, I'm hiring this person, this person, this person, this is what we're gonna do on day one, et cetera, et cetera.

They want to go. I think it's also worth noting. I mean, I think Gates as a human being genuinely sucks. But he does actually have some more heterodox positions when it comes to certainly the antitrust and economics in these things. Pam Bondi has none of that. And so the fact that Trump found each of these people to be sort of like equally worthy candidates for attorney general tells you that it has nothing to do with how they think about corporate power or whatever. It has to do with one thing and one thing alone.

Are they loyal to Donald J Trump? Are they going to do what he wants them to do in that position? That was always and will always be the only qualification, the only thing that really matters to him in terms of putting in this position. When he says, I will be your retribution. Like who, if you were out there in the world and you've been a Donald Trump adversary critic, whatever, like who should be worried right now?

Yeah, I would say the DOJ is probably anyone who's like a career at the DOJ, meaning they've been there for decades and we're working on indictments against Donald Trump or people who were working on like face act stuff against anti-abortion protesters, like that stuff is going to be very clear. Do you mean retribution in terms of also like where they might- Investigations. Who will be targeted.

I bet, I bet. I mean, well, it's kind of interesting because some people have said there'll be more scrutiny on Hunter Biden and Joe Biden's relationship with Hunter Biden. But then Trump has, he has this weird thing where he didn't go after Hillary Clinton. I kind of doubt that, to be honest with you. It's interesting, though.

I mean, I don't know. It's also the other place I would have said is the tack leaders who, to your point, have kind of bent the knee. Well, a lot of what Trump World would have wanted to do in 2021-2022 was go after those tack leaders like Mark Zuckerberg. And Zuckerberg has said he regrets listening to

The former FBI people and the FBI people, Mark Zuckerberg famously met with the FBI and had this conversation before the Biden laptop drops. The Hunter Biden laptop drops is saying, you know, expect something that's going to look like, and we now know they already had the laptop, but that's going to look like Russian disinformation. And Zuckerberg was like, Oh, okay. So when the laptop story broke, he was eager to surprise it to see it that way.

Right. And so that previously, I mean, there would have been investigations of those guys. There's no question about it. But I think instead is what you're going to see as investigations of people who were involved in Russia collusion. And even though some of those people have already been investigated, I think you'll see even more scrutiny. Anybody who, like,

anybody who was leaking to the press during that, you know, Peter struck Lisa Page. I know those are old names and it sounds like, but I think that's like, these random people that were parts of that, I think, is especially going to be room for targeting. And what about Alvin Bragg, let's just say James, Fanny Willis.

Yeah. Yeah, probably all of the above. And Faniwell seems to have the most spotted record of all of them in terms of soft corruption. So that'll be a lot of fun for them. I think what you're pointing to as well and what we're discussing with Google, Zuckerberg, et cetera, bending the knee in advance and saw a similar dynamic with Jeff Bezos of the Washington Post like, oh, we're not going to endorse.

You're all good here. And actually even getting in a little Twitter exchange back and forth where Elon had suggested that Jeff Bezos was saying negative things about Trump's potential victory. And Bezos jumps on, no, no, no, that's not true. And also fits with Joe and Mika making their trek down to Mar-a-Lago. And Steve Bannon had said, now, whether this has any veracity, we don't know. But he had said that the DOJ is going to go after MSNBC hosts.

He named Czech specifically Ari Melberg, but you would think that, you know, Joe and Mika could potentially be at the top of that list. And so I think a lot. Ari Melberg? I was a random one to be at that. Like, I don't know why. I feel like Ari covers a lot of the legal stuff. Yeah. Like that's his beat. He's, you know, former lawyer that he like goes in on that. And I think he's even had, I want to say he's had Bannon on the show and they've like fought with each other anyway. Apparently Steve Bannon has like a grievance, particularly with Ari Melberg.

But, you know, I think a lot of the work is already done in terms of just having, you know, the threat of a Matt Gates, the threat of a Trump loyalist out there to go after people with investigations or to hurt their businesses in the case of Jeff Bezos, who has a lot of business with the government. You know, so there's a lot of sort of like compliance in advance.

to try to get on Trump's good side and try to avoid the worst of the federal government being weaponized against you. So in any case, obviously, that position will be really consequential. I did. The other piece that I was curious about is whether Pete Hegset seems to me like he would be the other one that would be difficult potentially.

to get confirmed. Also reportedly Trump was pissed that Haggseth hadn't been upfront with him. Yeah. About not only the specifics of the allegations, the sexual assault allegations against him, but also the fact that he had, you know, paid some undisclosed sum.

to the woman who accused him of rape, he denies the charges and put out his side of the story. But let me go ahead and play for you. You know, this is getting a lot of attention on CNN, Dan Abash going back and forth with Senator Mark Wayne Mullen about the Pete Hegseth allegations. Go ahead and take a listen to that.

I want to just make sure viewers know what that report said that the woman said that when she tried to leave head sets hotel room he blocked the door ended up on top of her and performed a sexual act she also said that she will remember saying no to a lot. Yeah, good.

Dana, if we're going to get into that, let's talk about the whole police report. Now, I know you read it, and I have definitely read it. First of all, the police report, if you look at it, it's very clear that what Pete was saying was, his attorney was saying, was accurate.

There was no case here. He was falsely accused. If you go back and you read the report, there was two eyewitnesses said that she was being the aggressor. Pete wasn't even flirting with her. He was flirting with a different girl and the other girl was trying to flirt with Pete, the Jane Doe here that is unmentioned.

They also said that she was holding his arm as they were leaving, and that Pete was intoxicated, and that Jane Doe was not. They obviously said, multiple people, said that she was aggressively, to the point of aggressively, using aggressively flirting towards him, when they were in the court of the yard. Senator, I was going to- When the hotel staff- Senator. Well, I'm just saying that she told one part of this- I wasn't done. I wasn't done.

I wasn't done. I wasn't done. You're giving his side with, and it was definitely the police report is definitely what she said and what he said. You're absolutely right. I hadn't gotten there, but I appreciate you giving that other side for me. So I guess that just kind of answers the question, which is from your perspective, you believe his part of the story and not hers.

I absolutely do. He he wasn't charged. He wasn't even kind of charged in this. There was no crime committed. The police dropped everything there. It's what's unfortunate in today's world. You can be accused of anything. And then if especially if it's something like this, you're automatically assumed to be guilty. If you read the police report from cover to cover, which I have and I know every reporter has to, it is clear there is nothing there. So he's obviously prepared to vote for Pete Hegstaff.

but may not be representative of the entirety of the Republican caucus. What is your sense there, Emily? Because not just because of these allegations, but in addition, I mean, Pete Hagg Seth is also very ideological. Guys said that, like, for example, women should serve in combat roles. And I can imagine there being at least a few Republican senators who may take issue with that.

We take issue with that because, you know, some of our, obviously, are not for election every two years, but you can imagine being Susan Collins and voting to confirm somebody like Pete Haggseth and then having to run for real action and answer for it. Yeah, maybe even not when you're running for real election, but even when you're just back in Maine talking to constituents, that, you know, it's not going to be super easy for somebody like Susan Collins. And he can afford to lose a few votes. But, you know, if you have a mass defection or even

And if you have like five to 10, that's not good enough. You can't get there. There will be no Democrat who would vote for Pete Haggseth. And you're not going to get any crossovers there. No, no, not at all. And let's also remember that, you know, Pete Haggseth is firmly opposed in some good ways, and in some ways that both of us would probably disagree with, but in some good ways firmly opposed to this like entrenched bureaucracy at the Pentagon and

poses a major threat to a lot of that. And he's somebody who's from the outside that the defense contractors are not familiar with and not comfortable with. He has positions on Ukraine that they're definitely not comfortable with. And to that extent, I think there's going to be a ton of pressure on people, again, like Susan Collins, like Mitch McConnell,

who's not going to want to shake up the Pentagon bureaucracy is now staying in the Senate specifically to keep the money flowing to Ukraine. Like that is how he is positioned himself instead is going to be his legacy. So it's not just this. This is something that's going to make it a lot more difficult. But that pressure is going to be

enormous. And I know that he kind of has normally conservative positions on things like Israel and even on different questions. But he's from outside the Pentagon and that makes them very, very uncomfortable. And so the lobbyists will be out in full force pressuring people unless they decide they think they can work with the guy or that he'll be easily manipulated. That doesn't seem to be the case so far. It seems like everyone's pretty opposed to him. But the pressure is going to be enormous not to confirm Pete Hagg's oath.

Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stand. Anya and I met through hockey and now we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness in between.

We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice, like FIFA World Cup winner, Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was gonna be. And Peloton instructor and a ratchet mom club founder, Kristen Ferguson. And I remember going in there a hot mess. So listen to moms who puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeartWomen's Sports. Hey, everyone. It's Sarah Spain from Good Game with Sarah Spain, and we're in the beautiful city of Malaga, Spain, where we just watched Team Italy win the Billy Jean King Cup. Before the final, we got a chance to sit down with Billy Jean herself. Take a listen.

Well, look at the scoring. I think it should be one, two, three, four. How do you get new kids in the game? I mean, they come to watch, and I've never been in tennis, and my coach starts saying, well, let me explain the scoring. It's 15 love, 30 love. I go, I know, 45, right? They go, no. And I'm 11 years old, and I said to him, this is the stupidest, great English, the stupidest thing I've ever been.

Now, I know I'm like a lot of kids. I don't come from tennis. My family's not in tennis. And if you are in tennis, as a child, you still want to make it fun. And I think when you start tennis, you should be put on a team. Just put them on a team. They can be a great team level individual from the beginning. Because it's about relationships.

To hear more from the legend herself, Billie Jean King, on my show, Good Game with Sarah Spain, be sure to listen to this episode of Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or every Get Your Podcasts. Hey, I'm Jackie's Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit. The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jackie's Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts

Dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories, Black Lit is for the Paige Turner's for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters.

From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. BlackLit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to BlackLit on the iHeartVideo app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So a very interesting pick by Donald Trump for Department of Labor. He found one of the only in existence, somewhat pro-union Republicans. Let's go and put this up on the screen. So some moderate congresswoman. She just actually lost narrowly reelection in the state of Oregon. Her name is Lori Chavez de Raymer. I might be saying that wrong. I'm sorry if I am. But basically I had never heard of her. The one thing that makes her noteworthy is she did actually vote.

very few who voted in favor of the pro act, which is pro union legislation in the house. And the other thing that is noteworthy about her is that Shona Brian, who was the president of the Teamsters Union, who spoke at the RNC and decided to keep his union out of the endorsement game whatsoever, which was taken as a huge victory by Trump and his side. This is the candidate that he was ultimately pushing for this job.

So, you know, it's quite a remarkable, you know, quite a remarkable shift to have for Trump specifically, who has been a union buster his whole life, to have someone who's remotely pro union put into this position. And, you know, I think it's sort of like a payoff for Sean O'Brien, who was tweeting about this, let's put this up on the screen.

He says, thank you, Donald Trump, for putting American workers first by nominating Lori Chavez-Deremer for U.S. Labor Secretary nearly a year ago. You joined us for Teamster's Roundtable and pleasure to listen to workers and find common ground to protect and respect labor in America. You put words into action and now let's grow wages and improve working conditions nationwide. Congratulations on your nomination, et cetera, et cetera. So he's certainly taking a victory lap with this. And for me, Emily, it's both

Really consequential. Listen, for the labor movement, which you guys know is one of my key priorities, the labor union used to have bipartisan support like in the New Deal era and still does. If you go into state legislatures in places that are more like pro union friendly, I can speak to the Kentucky legislature still had at least last I checked some Republicans who would be pro labor, pro union. So it is a flavor that did exist.

But it is better for the labor movement when you have bipartisan support because one of the problems with the union movement is that since Republicans became just like 100% ideologically aligned against it, you had a raft of legislation that was passed in states that made it more and more difficult to organize. You had an effort to paint unions as just being sort of like plants for the Democratic Party.

So, overall, it's really good to have some bipartisanship within the union movement, but I also don't want to overstate what this means because, you know, if you were really serious about advancing labor rights in the way that the Biden administration actually was, you would keep, for example, Jennifer Abruzzo in as general counsel at the National Labor Relations Board.

you would reverse some of the incredibly hostile actions that the Trump administration took last time they were in office. The Biden administration, they ramped up their enforcement minimum wage over time worker safety. Trump has been on the other side of many of those. And one of the most consequential pieces is that the Biden administration has pushed

to make it easier to classify contractors like those Amazon drivers as employees, which is really aided union drives specifically that apply to the Teamsters. And there's no real indication that the Trump administration plans to continue in that direction. So while it is significant, I also don't want to make too much of it because ultimately it matters what this Department of Labor does once the rubber hits the road.

This is truly significant. I mean, there's just no other way to look at it, because as some of these cabinet nominations have come out, there's been tons of pressure, as you know, on Sean O'Brien, people saying, look at this, you bet on the wrong horse, and here's what you're getting, because various of these nominees have come from, you know, the conservative movement, somebody like Russ Vogt, for example, who maybe

You know, think differently about unions post Trump, but definitely before Trump, we're not in favor of any of this at all. And we're much more aligned openly, proudly with the business community than with unions. And so this could have been somebody, I mean, remember Donald Trump's first nomination, his first labor secretary was Alex Acosta, the guy who approved the deal for Jeffrey Epstein.

I mean, this could have been someone that was very, very hostile to organized labor. No matter what Donald Trump said on the campaign trail, it's just the selection of people to go from. It's just very, very difficult to actually align yourself in that way. And for him to align himself with Sean O'Brien here.

I mean, this is massive. This is truly massive. The labor secretary is in charge of so much policy. It's not just what goes through Congress. Like the labor secretary is extremely consequential for the day-to-day practices of what happens in the business world. This is a huge, huge deal for a Republican president.

Yeah, so I'm no doubt about that. On the other hand, you know, there are many contradictory signs in terms of the posture towards unions within this administration. We can put this next piece up on the screen. So one of the biggest problems, Rokana here tweeting, what could be a bigger betrayal of working class voters sent to dismantle an FDR created agency that be the National Labor Relations Board that protects unions and workers from

exploitation, and he links to a Washington Post article here about the efforts by Elon Musk and supported by, you know, many Trump allies to deem the National Labor Relations Board unconstitutional.

which would be kind of a death blow for union organizing. So Elon has been very involved in this Amazon SpaceX. They've all argued in federal court Starbucks. They've all argued in federal court that the NLRB is unconstitutional. They also write in this article that Trump's presidential administration is poised to oversee major cuts.

to the powers of the National Labor Relations Board and firing the Democratic members of that board. And I know this can seem really in the weeds, but we've covered it extensively here. So if you've been watching the show for a while, you'll know some of this. This wave of grassroots union organizing that we've seen at places like Amazon, at places, which is represented by parts of the organizing driver being led by the teamsters, at places like Starbucks,

The workers get all the credit for doing the, you know, doing the work and taking risk and all of that. But it also was really dramatically enabled by a pretty aggressively pro-worker national labor relations board, the general counsel of which her name is Jennifer Arbuzzo. She is very likely to be fired by the Trump administration. I don't think there hasn't been the whole like, you know, Lina Khan conversation.

She hasn't been conversational. She hasn't been made central to this, but she really should be because if you actually care about expanding union rights, this is someone who has done incredible work. The Biden administration, which Jennifer Abruzzo has also worked to ban these meetings that they force.

workers to go into to hear like anti-union propaganda. There have been very important decisions made about even the way in which the Starbucks organizing could unfold. And so that's been super consequential. And with Elon Musk in here as, I mean, this is a guy that brags about firing striking workers that Trump was like, yay, way to go, good job. With Elon Musk in here as an incredible influence who thinks unions should just basically be illegal.

I still, if you're a labor supporter as I am, I don't think you should be resting easy by the fact that they picked, you know, the Congresswoman who supported the Pro Act to head the agency. There's still a lot of huge questions about what the orientation is actually going to be. And of course, in the first Trump administration, he was aggressively anti-union, which fits with his business career and which he also was a notable union buster.

Yeah, this is one of the questions that I asked my friends who are sort of working in the, people who are like seeing these negotiations behind the scenes in the off-season as you put it earlier in the show, to see what a new Republican administration with their fantasy policies in place, I've asked them like, do you have enough people to staff a potentially pro-labor, labor department under Donald Trump? Like those, all of those middle positions, which are also extremely consequential.

Who are you going to put in them? That's not from the coke world, truly. That didn't grow up in that time. It doesn't come with some of those predispositions. And I don't know that that can happen. And so it means that maybe a lot of careers will be protected at the labor department. I don't know. Maybe. But the other thing is like, OK, so you give Sean O'Brien what he wants here.

And you have Elon and Vivek coming in to basically take an axe to the whole agency. Although they don't have any power. But they'll want to. Yes, and Russ vote and others have the theory that you can make unilateral cuts without having to go through Congress.

So, you know, I think it's very possible that you have her at the head of what ends up being sort of a skeleton agency that even if it wants to, it doesn't really have the power. Already the Department of Labor and the National Labor Relations Board does not have sufficient staffing.

to be able to handle worker grievances and disputes and elections in a timely manner. Like it's already stretched incredibly thin, especially as there's been a significant increase in union organizing activity. So it's entirely possible you end up with a figurehead overseeing what's effectively like a skeletal agency that, you know,

basically gives a nod to the union voters and to Sean O'Brien and people who supported Donald Trump, but isn't actually effectively able to protect workers' rights because that does take bureaucrats and people in positions who can do the work to make sure those rights are protected.

Somehow the bureaucrats at the NLRB had enough time to subpoena me over a joke tweet that my then- Are you serious? Yeah, maybe I'll tell the story about that one time. But it's all been reported. It was a joke tweet about whether employees at the Federalist would unionize. You could Google it. But they did just subpoena the women and they somehow found the time to do that. It was really fun.

They're protecting your rights, Emily. Yeah, they're protecting your rights. But we can put the Stan Maron's tweet up, because I think it's really interesting. And Chris, I know you and I disagree on this. I've always been frustrated about the pro act itself being sort of the litmus test. This is kind of conservative world freaking out about the Chavez de Raymer nomination.

Because as Dan points out in one of his posts, even some Democrats have issues with the pro act forcing companies to treat all gig workers as employees. And we could debate that I think maybe we have like a couple years ago. But it's significant even that as some Democrats have issues with the pro act, this one Republican was like, hey, I'm getting on board with the pro act even though, even though corporate Dems are uncomfortable with the pro act. Well, at the Senate level, I think

every Democrat except for Mark Kelly and Kirsten Simmons supported it. So it was pretty unanimous. And then once Mark Kelly started getting floated for being the vice presidential pick, he also was like, I support the pro act. But hey, listen, I'm happy to go back to car check, which was what was being pushed the employee free choice act, which was what was being pushed under the Obama administration.

We can go ahead and forward with some of these tweets so we can show there's, you know, a real freak out happening here, you say, a Republican labor secretary supports the anti-worker pro out. It would be a very bad start for Trump, arguably the worst bill in Congress, anti-freelancer, anti-franchisee, anti-secret ballot, anti-worker, can go ahead to the next one.

If you think union leadership is in step with the union rank and file, you've learned absolutely nothing. Union members didn't vote for Trump to end right to work and empower teachers unions. They just wanted lower prices. So this is an interesting argument, that one of like, no, they knew that Trump is anti-union and they voted for him anyway. That's an interesting, that's an interesting take. And maybe correct. Partially, yeah. Go be correct, yeah. And then this one, this person says, Lori Chavez, Doreema, co-sponsored the pro act. That's all I need to know. I don't think thinking that is a positive Emily.

So there's so many people like that though. I mean truly like this is the Koch brothers were the engine of the let's say the labor nonprofit movement on the right and it's not as though people needed to be paid by the Koch brothers to have anti-union positions. It was just that the conservative movement was reflectively in support of business over organized labor. It was part of the ideology that we trust the business more than we trust the government. And I mean it's just it's baked into the cake here. And so I don't

But most of the people in the conservative movement who focus on labor issues have those takes. And there are some people like Orrin Cass who have been toiling in the trenches and getting trashed by guys like that to come up with a slightly more pro-worker policy agenda for the Republican Party. And even when they step a little bit out of line, they get, you see soccer get it. I get it. It's not a big deal.

For people like Orin who are the figureheads of this, they make it impossible to get money from people who want the conservative movement to have a slightly more pro-worker agenda. If you take any money from the left, you'll just get trashed. So that's that reaction. The pressure is going to be on. There's just no question about it.

Yeah, she'll get confirmed because I think quite a number of Democrats will actually vote for her too because of the available choices. You are not going to get a more pro-labor, departmental labor head than she is. But it'll be interesting whether there are any Republicans who vote against her.

super business like Chamber of Commerce types are going to be under pressure probably although maybe they don't really even apply pressure because they know it's a bit of a loss cause with Democrats being willing to vote for her so I'll just say for my part you know I do think it's obviously noteworthy and an important break from the

Trump administration. Last time around and from Republican orthodoxy, in general, I think it is incredibly positive for the labor movement. If there are some Republican bipartisan support for unions, no doubt about it, I'm going to need to see a lot more before I'm convinced that Donald Trump is going to be remotely good for labor organizing, given his personal history and given the way the first administration unfolded and given that probably the most powerful person advisor to Donald Trump right now.

is Elon Musk who is vehemently opposed to unions even like existing in the world. Mm-hmm. That's an entirely fair point. And the one thing that I always say to people on the right about this is I grew up in a split household. My dad is a union. My mom worked in HR. So it was like a little...

That's funny. But my point is, basically, if you don't trust corporations, if you think that there's a moral vacuum in corporate America and that these executives are bad and that's what was driving a lot of DEI, well, imagine how they actually treat their workers. Imagine, take that and apply it. If they are suddenly adopting all of this DEI bullshit and it's reflective of them having bad character and being cynical corporate losers,

then imagine how they treat their workers. Just take that and say, if you believe this is reflective of moral rot inside of corporate America, then imagine working for Amazon. It's really simple. Translates right across the board. Such a great point. We've got another great guest standing by an activist who has been pushing to try to implement a weapons embargo against Israel. Let's go ahead and get to that.

Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stand. Anya and I met through hockey and now we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness in between.

We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice, like FIFA World Cup winner, Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was gonna be. And Peloton instructor and a ratchet mom club founder, Kristen Ferguson. And I remember going in there a hot mess. So listen to moms who puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeartWomen's Sports. Hey, everyone. It's Sarah Spain from Good Game with Sarah Spain, and we're in the beautiful city of Malaga, Spain, where we just watched Team Italy win the Billy Jean King Cup. Before the final, we got a chance to sit down with Billy Jean herself. Take a listen.

Well, look at the scoring. I think it should be one, two, three, four. How do you get new kids in the game? I mean, they come to watch, and I've never been in tennis, and my coach are saying, well, let me explain the scoring. It's 15 left. I know 45, right? They got no. And I'm 11 years old, and I said to him, this is the stupidest. Create English. The stupidest thing I've ever been.

Now, I know I'm like a lot of kids. I don't come from tennis. My family's not in tennis. And if you are in tennis, as a child, you still want to make it fun. Yeah. And I think when you start tennis, you should be put on a team. Just put them on a team. They can be a great team. Make it less individual from the beginning. Because it's about relationships.

To hear more from the legend herself, Billie Jean King, on my show, Good Game with Sarah Spain, be sure to listen to this episode of Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Jackie's Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit. The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jackie's Thomas and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories.

Blacklit is for the Paige Turner, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture.

Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. BlackLit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to BlackLit on the iHeartVideo app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Very happy to be joined this morning by Mohammed Nabulsi of the Palestinian youth movement movement has been engaged in some very interesting activism. We're hoping you would break down for us here on the show. Welcome, Mohammed.

Thank you for having me. Yeah, so we have seen how the US in particular, but other countries as well, primarily the US though, has been reluctant to follow our own laws, let alone international laws. And so you at Palestinian youth movement have decided to take some actions to put pressure on shipping giant masks in particular, in regards to shipping weapons to Israel. This breakdown for us a little bit about your organization and what you all are up to.

So yeah, the Palestinian youth movement is an organization of Arab youth in the diaspora, primarily located in the West and in North America and Britain. And we've been organizing over the last year and a half since the start of this genocide to place pressure specifically on the Biden administration.

to relent in its support of this ongoing genocide. And so the main demands obviously have been ceasefire, but as the war proceeded, the demand of an arms embargo became more central because we started to recognize that first that the Biden-Harris administration was able to co-opt the language of ceasefire to say that they wanted to ceasefire

nothing to actually bring it about beyond just empty platitudes in front of podiums. And so an arms embargo became the central demand because we recognize that that is the only way we'd be able to actually achieve a ceasefire. And so after that sort of recognition took place, we also saw that the Biden-Harris administration was reluctant to do anything in the way of an arms embargo.

bring that about. And we've launched this campaign, Mask Off MERSC, in May of this year. And we began by recognizing or understanding that MERSC, this Danish company, one of the largest, if not the largest, logistics and supply chain company in the world. That's responsible for basically taking goods, products, military cargo from the US, from everywhere, really,

and transporting it across the globe. And so Masked Off MERS was meant to unveil the role, expose the role that MERSC is playing in sustaining this genocide against the Palestinian people in Gaza. We published a report more recently and I'm happy to discuss the details of that report because there have been major developments in response to the publishing of the report.

the coverage by the intercept and by Spanish media resulting in the Spanish government banning or preventing the docking of two Merck ships on its shores. I was going to say please tell us more about the response because it may sound like one company, but Merck is an incredibly consequential company in the global economy. So tell us a little bit more about what's happened.

and maybe even specifically a little bit more about how Merck, like the ships themselves, are involved as the report outlines in some of this activity.

Absolutely. So we basically documented, and this is from publicly available information reviewing the actual shipments that have taken place, that from September of last year, 2023, MERSC has shipped millions of pounds of military goods, military cargo to the Israeli Ministry of Defense from the US. And these are US manufactured military cargo paid for by the US.

paid for really by US taxpayers, shipped across 2,000 shipments. And these shipments included hulls, engines, specialized parts, for armored personnel carriers, tactical vehicles, specifically a vehicle that I think your audience and a lot of people would recognize the Oshkosh tactical vehicle where you might have seen the photo of Palestinians blindfolded, stripped, rounded up in place in the back of this truck, essentially.

being carried off to be, you know, either tortured and prisoned or whatever. And so these ship, these, uh, verse ships, basically, um, the way that it operates, they're called transshipment, um, vessels and they're picking up goods from the port of Houston, taking them to the port of Elizabeth, New Jersey,

And then they drop off their cargo in Spain at their trans shipment pubs. And as you can imagine, Merck's leases essentially controls terminals at multiple ports at the entry of the Mediterranean. And so for Merck's, these vessels, they drop them off in Spain and

from their MERSC ships that are responsible, they're smaller in size, are responsible for basically doing a loop around the Mediterranean where they pick up the goods from Spain and then drop them off either in Port Said and Egypt or in Turkey or directly towards the actual port in Haifa. And so these vessels, they need to drop off their goods at this entry point.

Now, with Spain basically implementing an arms embargo themselves, the Spanish government has spoken extensively about the fact that they're not going to allow any weapons to be shipped to Israel, either from them directly or through their ports. And so Spain following the reporting from the intercept covering our report.

essentially it was forced to respond and as a result they banned MERS from docking these ships at its port. Now MERS gets self-responded.

They first stated that they don't ship any weapons or ammunition to Israel or conflict zones more broadly and that they take care of but of humanitarian concerns along all of this sort of jazz. But you have to be really like specific about the language here. So Merck says we don't ship weapons and ammunition. And this is a it's really a way for them to get around what they're actually doing.

Weapons here refers to, you know, assembled parts, like actual assembled weapons or ammunition, meaning live ammunition involving gunpowder or things of that nature. Basically, what MERSC is doing is shipping everything but that, right? So for example, they say, well, we're shipping the body of a tank.

the engine of a tank, the armor of a tank, but we're not shipping the tank. Right. But that is the tank. It's being assembled in Israel itself. So the same thing they're doing about like bullets, they'll ship the bullet casing. They'll ship the actual like body of the bullet and the same for the rockets. They'll ship the body of a rocket. They won't ship the actual ammunition.

And this is because, first of all, it's much more costly to do so. And it involves higher wages for workers at docks to be able to actually carry it, because this is really hazardous material and dangerous material. So they send everything but that. And what we've seen, I mean, if anybody's followed this war so extensively, which is obviously one of the most documented war on social media, you know these exact vehicles, you know the name or armored personal carrier, which is what they're responsible for sort of transporting.

All of these things are what they're transporting, and they use this turn of phrase, this technical word to avoid basically conceding that they are shipping actual weapons. And at least in a layman understanding or in every day person's understanding of weapon, these are weapons. And for the Spanish government, that's how they understood it as well. And so they've banned them. And now as a result of banning them from being able to dock in Spain, they've moved to

Tangier. It's another terminal they essentially control. Tangier is located in Morocco. Morocco has obviously normalized relations with the state of Israel. And now the fight has shifted to Morocco because the population there, the actual people of Morocco are up in arms over this. And we've seen several dock workers walk off the job. They've resigned. We've seen multiple leaks from within

These are essentially Merced employees because they work at this terminal that's leased by Merced. Leaking photographs from CCTV footage, they've leaked essentially a bunch of a ton of information to media locally, and there's been a mobilizations across Morocco and specifically at this port in Tangier.