108. Mhairi Black: Independence, inequality, and the future of the SNP

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You're about here, Alastair Me talk to the extraordinary Scottish politician, Mary Black, and it was a really enjoyable conversation. We get going into many, many different things, character and politics, the culture of politics, a lot about the US election and Donald Trump. This was actually recorded before the US election. You'll pick that up as the conversation goes forward, but

I think it's mesmerizing listening, particularly on what the experience of a young person entering parliament at the period that she did was and what it tells us about the state of our democracy.

Welcome to the rest of his politics with me Rory Schutt and me Alex Campbell with Mary Black with my back and we're sitting here and I said, I mean, genuinely, it's amazing. We're on a bus and it's a black sort of leather bus. It's a great bed. So this bus eight, eight beds. It's like a rock star bus. It is a rock star bus.

Right. This bus is normally used by rock stars. Right. Who go on the road and... So he's got eight beds on it. And as you keep shower. And as you keep saying, we don't really want to... We don't really want to think about all the stuff that happens. I don't. I really don't. I don't. I don't. Okay. Now, luckily, however, to raise the tone, we have with Ms. Murray Black, who entered Parliament when I was in Parliament. I saw a lot of her. Not particularly social yet, Jim, and she was a very, very visible figure around Parliament. Very dramatic figure because she had come in

to the House of Commons at the age of 20, which is record-breaking the young. And she very rapidly made a name for herself. She got, I think, 10 million views for her maiden speech. Which is pretty rare for a maiden speech. It's sort of fifth of the entire adult population of Britain is watching the maiden speech. Mine was watched just by my mum. And I think she's become a really interesting figure in so many different ways.

And the thing is that the reason we're talking to we talk to her the guy she beat in Paisley Douglas Alexander a few weeks ago who's now back in parliament. The reason I thought it'd be interesting to talk to her is because she's now gone the other way she's decided I've had enough I can't face it I'm leaving. And she's I think you know I've talked before your book you found politics very very difficult but I think for very different reasons she found incredibly difficult loads what happens in parliament.

And I think she's also somebody who's very, very interesting on this phenomenon about the SMP, which is that it's kind of, it's a bit left, it's a bit right, it's a bit socially conservative, it's a bit radical, it's a bit this, it's a bit that. And I think she's very much on that kind of left side of the SMP and with some very, very strong views. And I think fans some of the stuff that happened with the leadership very, very difficult to deal with. She having defeated Douglas Alexander at the age of 20,

he having now gone back in, she's going in the other direction. And just at the age of 30 is now going to be a former MP by her own choice. So let's talk to Murray back. Lovely to have her here. And Rory, when do you kick us off? So, Murray, can we start, I guess, at the beginning? I mean, what kind of child were you? What kind of person were you? Or... What would you have been like to meet as a, I don't know, a seven-year-old or a ten-year-old?

Well, when I was seven, it was actually one of my first times getting involved in anything political. And it was against the Iraq war. Yeah, I mean, I don't have much of a choice on it to be fair. But, you know, I always remember that being asking, right, what's all this about? And then just kind of soaking it all up.

You weren't heading out there to find Tony Blair and just have to have it out with him. Well, no, it turns out he'd left on a helicopter. It was before, so it was a big march for normal and getting your steps. A young person, think about the fact he wasn't there when you turned up. I mean, at that point, if I'm being totally honest, my feet hurt, and that was my main priority. But looking back, I think, I mean, I get you a busy person, but, per show. So, just something a little bit about your parents, what were they like?

To be fair, my whole family was political, not in the sense of party politics, but in the sense of being involved in trade unions and keeping an eye on what's happening and talking about politics. It's something that I only appreciated.

as I got older was how there was really no topic that was barred in our house. You know, it's like that phrase, don't talk about religion or politics. I'd never heard that. And when I first heard the phrase, I was like, what do you talk about? It's in that sense, I was blessed in being brought up with such a talkative and articulate and political family in that sense. They were the first of their generation to go to university and stuff.

So, yeah, no, there was pretty traditional labour, you know, my whole family was as much of Scotland was, and that was kind of the basis from where we were always coming at things. Okay, you're always an SMP supporter. I was always an independent supporter. Okay. Because I do think that nationalism is right wing.

Yeah, it has so many connotations to it that are very ugly and are completely against the values that I hold dear. And you can conversation about civic nationalism, which is different from other forms. But by that point, I think we'll give lost the point if you're getting pedantic about things.

I remember reading about Nicola Surgeon's journey, and that was quite interesting, and I wondered if you'd sort of think she's a different generation to, I guess. But she went through a journey of being quite a bright student, and then I think she became increasingly worried that the Labour Party had basically gone quite right-winged. She also had strong views on the Iraq War.

And so I just wanted to what has changed in generations, what do you think her experience, I guess in the 80s where she's trying to arrange herself about has labor stood up to Margaret Thatcher properly, what choices are being made with Tony Blair and then you, I guess my right, maybe 20 even 30 years younger, what changed in here.

So, I mean, I joined ASMP in 2011, I'm sure. And that was the first time anyone in my family had, as far as I'm aware, had actually formally joined a political party. And the only reason I had joined it was because I thought, well, we're getting a referendum if we do this. And it was the independence factor that was really driving it.

And I think for people like, maybe not totally nickelastrogen, but of her generation, I think it was almost like you had to know somebody in the SMP to even know existed, in a sense, because for a long time the SMP were a fringe party. You know, you look back far enough, they were a very right wing fringe party. And as that has changed over the years, I think the beginning of the swing was in the 80s with Thatcher.

because I think when people in Scotland started to realise how do we get rid of her? We're turning out every election and we're voting over, well mainly against her and yet she's still destroying communities all over Scotland and that I think set a fire off in a lot of folks' bellies that has been rumbling for a good long while and then 2011 was the time where it all came my head.

You won't have any memory of it, but knowing what you do now about the devolution changes that we made in 1997, we always thought that would satisfy, to some extent, the desires that you're talking about. But you think, actually, it fueled them.

Do you think that devolution movement will fuel the SMP? Genuinely I think both to be honest because there's still in the SMP there's a division in thought about whether devolution is too slow a game or whether it should just be kind of hold fast and you hold out for the full thing and nothing less. So in the one hand

Had I been in labor at that time, I would have thought the same devolution is the best thing you can do. In to an extent, it still is the best thing you can do to sort of pierce the independence bubble. But I think the difficulty then is how much do you devolve before you have to concede right when we might as well, just give you power over everything then because it's, we've kind of already started broaching the age of how far we can take the evolution.

You said you joined at 2011, but of course, what I guess the person listening isn't fully taking in is that that's you at sort of 15-16, isn't it? So this is quite... Yeah, I was 16, I think. And you also went to university very, very young. Yeah, I was 16 when I started uni as well. And that was... You went to Glasgow?

So that's you, and then you enter the house of commons when you're to spoil the story for the listener 20, right? So it feels like a very kind of accelerated life and you're getting to tell us a little bit about what that's like as a teenager moving that fast.

I was thinking some senses I was just in the right place at the right time because, like I said, so I joined the part in 2011. 2012 it was announced, we're getting the referendum and then the following two years I just spent campaigning. Why did you go to university? You went to this prestigious university very young.

Very clever. I wish it was that. And I was just ready to move on. I was done with school. I couldn't have stumbled another year. And I thought, right, I'm going to try my hardest and see if I can get into any university. And I managed to get in. Most of the other students started me when I mean 18, right? 18 plus. In hindsight, I think going to university when I did was actually the perfect training ground for what I did next because I was this young,

Younger than everybody else knew didn't know what i was doing this old institution this world famous established institution where everybody's older than me. Where did i end up in an old institution you know what everyone's older than me when do you think the first thing you might become an MP genuinely it was about halfway through the election campaign.

You didn't think you were going to win? No, I don't. But you were up against tell yourself exactly that. Yeah, I didn't expect to win at all. But I thought I'm going to make him work for him. I think if I'm just being realistic and honest, that's where my head was at, I'll go and I'll just do everything I possibly can because I don't like this. I had just been taken for granted. I had to campaign against him. So this is a very, very well established MP who'd been in there, I guess, since just after 97. Yeah. Very well connected. The Labour Party had been in the Cabinet, been a sexual state.

comes from sort of labour aristocracy in Scotland, his sister was a big deal in Scottish politics etc. And you're a 19-20 year old, right? If you were trying to persuade a voter not to vote for this person, vote for you, what was your critique of him? What would you say

unless it's warranted. I don't like criticising people individually. I think you can talk about the politics of it and how people vote and the things that they argue for, but I never went straight in on Douglas because I also didn't know him. You know, I really met the guy I spoke to him briefly in the street once. So when I was on the doorsteps, I just talked about politics. I would just say like, what's wrong with this constituency and like folk talk to me and then that's how the conversation would start.

It's only through talking with people like that that you start to understand what's the issue that's sticking for them, you know, what's the, I suppose the, the watermark for them of going right now I'm convinced and for different people it's different things. Just to follow up one more. I mean, why do you think they voted in the end for you and not Douglas Alexander? What was it that he was failing to offer in that vision and what were you offering in your vision?

I think it was a combination of there was a national swing happening undoubtedly, but I do think that the local campaign is what pushed us over the edge because what I do remember about that campaign in 2015 was

we, the SMP, were so visible. We had so many activists and you went to the High Street, you went in the middle of schemes, and suddenly there's 20 people, where, you know, little SMP boards and all-knocking doors, whereas Labour didn't have any of that at the time. And I suppose that was, again, feeding into this. They're taking us for granted here. So I do think it was a combination of the both that happened.

See, one, at the time you were the youngest MP elected since the Great Reform Act, 1832. You made a pretty powerful maiden speech, which really kind of had a lot of impact. But you talked in there about town centers deteriorating, communities in decline, unemployment levels, child poverty, food banks, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But how much has the Scottish government, the SMP government,

actually address those issues. Now that you're out of it, I can see why you might have had a critique of labour, which I might defend, but I can see why you had that critique. Do you not have to have the same critique of the SMP government as well? To what extent now that you've left, do you feel you can be more open about that, whereas you would be more defensive about it beforehand?

Well, I suppose it's more now I can say what I would say behind the scenes, but I can do it publicly. You know, that's a very freeing thing. So genuinely, I think there are examples of where the Scottish government over the last 17 or years have, for one of a better term, have made an arse of things, you know, in different examples, so that it's no getting away from that. But equally equality.

on policy and maybe less so policy and more on how they're actually delivering that policy and the practicalities of it. I think that's where we've been tripped up quite a few times. But I do also think it's very true though that fundamentally the big levers and where the big decisions are made that will change people's lives in terms of work opportunities, that's Westminster.

There's only so much you can blame the devolved governments, because I think ultimately everything they try to do, they've got one hand tied behind their back. So by no means perfect, definitely not, but I do not think they are to blame. You said that you went from one institute where the youngest person, Glasgow University, and then you end up in another one, Parliament. I don't know if you read Rory's book about Parliament, because he didn't like it much either. But you, it seems to me, really felt this place is just awful.

I had a good conversation with a, she was the deputy speaker at the time now on our line. And after I denounced that I wasn't standing again, she came over and was so surprised and shocked. And I was like, really Eleanor? Have you listened to anything I've said?

So we sat down and we're talking and because I was younger, I do think there was an element of the things that I found outdated or unacceptable were so much more visible to me because I hadn't, you know, been there for growing up with it. I said, what kind of things we're talking about? Just even, it's general, I mean, bullying is rife in that parliament. What sort of bully?

Like, just bad people being able to intimidate others and they're doing what they want, rather than actually treating people with equal respect. You talk about whips, you talk about ministers. Or across the board, it's different people, different levels. I've met whips like that. I've met backbench MPs like that. I've met leaders like that. It's a people issue rather than being a, you know, any one role, if that makes sense. Do you recognize that? Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of money.

It's a very unpleasant, I mean, I remember almost my first day in the House of Commons. You try to learn the rules and there are no proper rules, and we were told that if there wasn't a little card on the chair, we could sit where we wanted. So I very shidey come and sit down on my green bench, and this big guy next to me says, you can't sit there, and my friend's going to sit there on my side. But everything else is full, I don't have any words to say. And he turns to me and he just says, fuck off. Yeah.

And this guy's been in since 13 years longer than me. This guy later threatened to punch me behind the speaker's chair, but... Come on, name names. But it's a very... I mean, I think it's a horrible culture. Yeah. And the whole culture is all about... I don't know whether it's probably not quite as bad in the S&P, but in the big parties, it's certainly all about loyalty, teamwork... Oh, just as bad. Just as bad.

Because people always say to me, why are you leaving politics? And this part of me that thinks I'm not leaving politics. I've left elected politics and party politics and they're very different things. Politics is everywhere. It's in the price of the food, it's in what transport's available, how much you're getting paid, it's everywhere.

But I think the party politics, that's the bit where I think I'm not suited for it at all, and I don't know that any honest person really can thrive in it. So you won three elections, but still relatively young, you decided to pack it in. Do you feel you achieved anything?

For individuals, definitely. Yeah, we did. I mean, of course, everyone talks about case work when you can help a constituent a genuine way as a great feeling, particularly when you're as frustrated as I felt in Parliament, particularly because we were in fewer numbers, you know, so Scotland's only got 57 MPs now.

So you're in a situation where all of the MPs for one city can outvote the second largest nation in the UK so it's kind of set up to fail from the get go. And even when I tried to play the game and get the cross party support and everything knocked my pan in and it just again brick wall thrown right up.

And that was where I thought, this is also performative, and here this is everybody knows what's expected of them, and we just keep running around us, sort of hamster feel. One of the things that struck me immediately is that you get an impression that debates are about persuading the other side, and what I learnt very quickly is that everybody's voting on a three-line work.

make the best argument in the world. Labor all troops through one lobby, Tories all troops who they are loving, forget about it. In fact, that's if anyone's paying attention to the speeches at all, rather than looking at their phones and drifting off and doing whatever. I remember very early on I pointed out to somebody that the best debates are the ones where the chamber's empty.

because all the heat's taken out of it and suddenly there's no speech limit and the folk who are there tend to be there because they actually care and understand and have an in-depth knowledge about what they're talking about and there can be a really interesting back and forth but when it's important or when the place is packed you write speeches for your social media clip you don't do it to try and convince any of these minds in there that chamber is just theatre.

Now you're out though, if you've got any ideas as to how you might improve it, realistic ideas that the system might accept the change, or do you just think you've given up thinking it can change? No, no, absolutely think it can change, but no matter what angle it is, you know, whether it's being the actual practicality of how the Parliament functions, whether it's a case of the culture in the Parliament or what, I think the first thing that they have to get over is this obsession with tradition for tradition's sake.

And I've always said, I totally appreciate that tradition is an important thing and it's how you connect generations to each other. But when that tradition starts to become dysfunctional or a barrier to doing the work you're supposed to do, there not needs to go. And that's where I think if even changing the shape of that chamber, I think could make a difference. You know, I've thought of going into the Scottish Parliament.

No, truthfully because I think two things. One, I think I'd be flung at the SMP within a week. Just because I'd find too much to disagree with. But I think the main point why I wouldn't do it is because I think, like I said at the start, waste monsters were the power lies that really changes lives, that fundamentally changes society. It's not the Scottish Parliament.

This thing about disagreeing and being flung out is, I guess, one of the big, big questions for politics, isn't it?

How do you combine your insents of integrity and your beliefs with the other view that it's a team sport? And it's about loyalty. And Alistair was very much at the other end of this, right? I mean, he's sitting there in number 10, trying to run a system with Tony Blair. And what he wants is people loyally trooping into the lobby, getting behind whatever they're trying to do. And he's not very amused by people like you and me saying, yes, you know, we've got some idealistic idea and we disagree with exactly what the government's got. We never tried, during the Corbin at the party, though. You never tried.

Do you ever give them the Malcolm Tucker? We were both at the Democrat Convention and I was very struck and impressed in a way by the way that AOC was very kind of loyal and dropped her views on, it's an awful thing to say, but I mean, dropped many views on things that I agree with her on in order to support her leader, take on Trump when the election.

I think it's kind of the fundamental battle that goes on. I think in every point of politics is trying to find the balance between what's right and what will work, you know, when very rarely are those two things exactly the same, if that makes sense. So the right thing to do is to stand by your beliefs and to hold fast and particularly if it's minorities you're talking about because you might be the only voice that they have on their side. So now you hold fast.

But then equally, you have to play the long game and you have to go right. But if we compromise on this one thing that gets us one step further up the ladder, you know, it's something you can build on. And that's where I think unless a political party actually can demonstrate internally that they have that plan that will take them up the ladder, that's when the wheels start coming off.

I'm fascinated by this, particularly at the moment, because I guess if you are a congressperson or senator in the Democratic Party at the moment, the whips have got the key card, which is we're going up against Donald Trump. This is such an evil man. Forget about all your ideals, forget about what we are one team, one for us. I was against fascism, basically. Yeah, exactly. And you can imagine how frustrating that must be for you. You might want to talk about Gaza, you might want to talk about child tax, and you're just being told, no.

Yeah. But again, I think it's that balance, I suppose, because if I was sitting there, I would be thinking, right, I don't want to drop all this stuff. I tell you what, if Trump gets in, there's no chance that I'm going to be able to affect any kind of change whatsoever. So, right on balance, I will hold my tongue for this until we get over that hurdle. And I think that's OK. That's part of being a grown up about things. But I guess you would in practice, it could be very tough.

Oh, definitely. You know, you could be input on television. They could, you know, ask your position on Gaza and you sort of equivocate or you avoid the question because you know, the party line is something different. And then all your supporters are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what she just done. She's just sold us out. Absolutely. That happens. I suppose, again, that's where it comes down to your own judgment, a case of a male villain. Would that be comfortable sticking up for myself?

The way I would always play these things through in my head is if I was sitting in a pub where people would I be able to justify this without bullshitting them or myself and if I'm able to do that then I think right now that this has got logic to it. Okay, Murray, quick break.

Did you made any real friends in Parliament? A couple, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I could count them on one hand, definitely. And the people that you still see a lot of? Yeah. I mean, less so now, just because we're not, you know, travelling down stuck there all the time. But yeah, no, I still keep in touch with them. But no, it was quite a lonely experience, certainly when I started. I mean, for a multitude of reasons, but particularly because I just felt like there was nobody that I was talking to that I would gel with.

You know, and I mean, everyone experiences that themselves. It's a lonely feeling when that happens. But eventually you build bridges with people, you learn more. The obvious problem that I have, and I guess you have, when we talk about how grim it is, is that you've got Alice is saying, but you've got to encourage all these young people to go into politics. You've got to be optimistic. You've got to be idealistic. How do you deal with that?

I don't think the two necessarily are mutually exclusive, I think. When I'm asked that, you know, this sounds terrible. Why would anyone get involved in it? And that's where part of me goes, well, the reason you should get involved, because it's no changing unless you do get involved. But equally, if I'm standing here trying to convince you and you to get involved in politics, I'm not sending you in there blind. I want you to know the reality of what you're walking into, because in a lot of ways, that's

Kind of the biggest shot to the system is suddenly you're in this building and it's a bubble unto itself and it's got its own etiquette, its own norms and its own culture that to the outside world are just alien.

When I'm being mean to honest with you, I sometimes think in my mind, he's a bit like those guys doing the kind of recruiting for the First World War, who show pitches and knights in shining armor, and they're not really revealing what it's like in the trenches. Yeah, that's such a lot. That's such a lot. The whole Alex Ammon, Nicholas Sturgeon. Yep. Journey, story, call it what you will. Mm-hmm.

What was your take on that? There was a time when they looked kind of almost impregnable as a political force, and Alex first minister, then Nicola first minister. And I mean, obviously, we're talking not long after Alex Hammond died, but they both went in directions for all sorts of reasons that it's very hard to work out exactly what happened.

I mean, I'll start by saying I also don't know what happened, but certainly from my perspective, I suppose it's much easier to toe the line and hug your tongue and, you know, maybe ignore or let things go when you're experiencing unprecedented success. And I think that's where kind of the beginning of the SNP's troubles was, was that particularly after the referendum in 2015, when we had this burst and became the third largest party in the UK,

the SMP as an organization wasn't built to deal with that level of engagement so you had this period where it was just every day had to get stuck in because we would be completely overwhelmed otherwise and I remember the phrase that gets said to me was we're building the plane as we're flying it and that's what it felt like to a large extent and everybody's willing to pitch in and do their best so long as they can see where the destination is

But I think as time went on, it became much more fractious. It became foggy, if you like, and forego at Can I see where we're actually headed? Never mind where we're landing. Is any of the check there's a wing on this? You know, it started to feel like that. And I suppose there's only so long that you can contain that feeling and that mood that it's bubbling away underneath the surface. And particularly for the parliamentarian side, eventually it's going to come to a head.

And the kind of things that you might have thought would split the S&P apart mid 2030 years ago, maybe split on the questions of, I don't know, the monarchy or it might split on sort of fundamental questions, the economic analysis turned out not to be the things that caused the problem.

It turned out to be, for example, fights around things like transgender. Why did those issues, more than the issues that I guess from a distance, would seem to matter more directly to your constituents, become the issues that taught things about?

So when this episode goes out, my Twitter measures are going to be out of control for what I'm about to say. But truthfully, I don't think it was ever about the trans issue, and I'm using inverted commas there. I think that was just a proxy and almost a battleground for where separate grievances could play out, and I have no doubt that it was a very deliberate choice to choose that kind. What was the deeper policies going on?

The door was at first or was it political? What was going on? I think both. By that point, there was a lot of bridges burned between different people. There was a lot of animosity that had built up a lot of impatience that had built up. And I think also because there didn't seem to be any clear strategy for what was coming next. That's when people just started our novel. I'm going to go off and do this thing or this thing and eventually folk end up down rabbit holes.

In the Conservative Party, often ideas sit together, so if people have a particular idea about trans, often there's a sort of family of other issues that they'll. Was that true there that you felt that you could sense other splits politically? Can you give us an example of other groups of ideas or

Yeah, so I suppose actually the fundamental thing that the SNP in particular has to wrestle with is that the only thing that unites the SNP is independence. I've always said when Scotland becomes independent the SNP will break up and if it doesn't break up it will become an irrelevance because they've served its purpose.

And where I think we did start to see that real success is when the SMP moved to the left, and not just socially, but also economically. And there was a period where it did look like we were really going in that direction and charging. Let's compare to that. But just before that, you do that, on the left right spectrum, so you'd be on the left. Ah. Where would Alex Simon and Nicholas Sturgeon, who's the use of John Sweeney B?

I think Nicola would be to the left, but not as left as me. I think she's more closer to the centre. I think John Swinney is... I think he's more right-wing, to be honest. Economically? Yes, economically, but everything else about him is the more left-leaning. And who else did you say? Alex. Alex, I would say, genuinely, I think Alex went where he felt he needed to be.

Because of course, he started off as very far left and just gradually moved. And when he moved on to his Alba stuff, he's just not to speak of those who have passed, but at Charlotte. That's quite a lot of those. What was this whole Alba project? It wasn't very successful in the end. He must have assumed that his personal charisma was incredibly important.

He was a guy who had a reputation as being a sort of magical rain-making politician, so at some points he must have felt, I'm the secret to the S&P and I can make a new party and I can... So, I mean, it was unpolitical to his bones, you know, definitely.

he had a mind that was sharper than most certainly when it came to politics and his ability to spot opportunity and to also sort of game plan in his head. I think that he was incredible at that, but the problem was his ego was

in my opinion was just as big as his talent was, and when you are able to take a party to success and you're the face of it, and you start to believe your own hype, then all of a sudden anybody challenging you, or will they have the problem? It's not that I have to reflect, it's that you are all not appreciating the genius that you have before you, and

I think his time went on particularly when he lost his seat in 2017. I think the reality kind of hit that he didn't have the same sway or he wasn't able to demand things and they just happened anymore. So that also mixed in with a lot of the personal stuff as well. I think like on the scale where he would be, I would say he's probably beside Nicola.

I'm just trying to develop this, because this is an interesting idea in politics. You've pointed out that in Germany, the far-left party, essentially now, is the personal vehicle of a... So she managed this. She basically broke away, created her own party. So what's your sense of why unexaminedism wasn't able to do it in a way that she was? I think because Nicholas Sturgeon

in a sense became what he had become in terms of the sense of she was then the success. I think Alec laid excellent groundwork and she was able to just take it almost. And then I think all the sort of personal scandals really, really, really damaged it.

The culture isn't different, isn't it? Because there are politicians, Boris Johnson, etc, who seem to be able to have scandal and write it through. This is just me talking about my experience when all that scandal was coming out and everything. What really appalled me was the number of people who suddenly felt able to talk more freely about their experiences with Alec.

And I'd not mean in criminal, I just mean in terms of his brilliant nature. I would think, wait, so this really has been going on for years, you know, because, I mean, mine and Alex relationship deteriorated very quickly because I didn't hold my tongue. But it was just very obvious that there was clearly a culture of folk rescue of him, or intimidated by his presence and his ability to

supposed to get things done, seemingly. So maybe the differences, and that wasn't compensated for, I guess, with a kind of terrible human being, the terrible Prime Minister, like Boris Johnson, you get the sense that there was also some people who had a form of affection for him and loyalty for him, that kind of compensated for the horrendous behavior. But maybe Alex was sort of lacking that kind of...

I mean, don't get me wrong, it could be very charismatic as well, you know, and he knew how to work a room, you know, and if he wanted to appear, you know, calm and cuddly and fun, he was very capable of doing it, you know, and I mean, there was a period of time, certainly, 2014, well, I thought, oh, this guy seems quite nice. But then, of course, you get to know people more.

And then with Nicholas said, I mean, again, from the outside, after things have gone wrong, we look at it and we think, how is it possible for her husband to have been the chief executive at the party? Well, she was the leader of the party. Did nobody say this is not good governance procedure? I mean, yes. Nicholas husband Peter was actually put in post by Alex and so when Nicola became leader, he was already chief exit.

And at that time, there was a lot of people saying, like, this isn't a good look, what are you doing? Separate this. But it was one of the things where once everybody complained about it, it just kind of stopped thinking about it. You know, there was other things happening, then we had an election one, then we had another election one, and then...

I suppose it kind of taps back into your loyalty thing. It's easy to fall into place when you're winning. You know, it's when those outside the organisation start to see the cracks that you've known exist. That's when it becomes harder to, man, should I step out of this? I suppose your loyalty becomes much more of a heavy price. You point about the kind of breadth of view that you have within the SMP.

if you take away independence. That came to the fore as well when Kate Forbes was running to the leader. Totally. I just wonder how you and she coexisted in the same kind of political space. I mean, like you're gay, you're married. Yep. Her views on that would be not if she was in charge, I wouldn't be.

You know, yeah. Oh no, it's totally, I think again it's a part of that people keeping things to themselves or holding back a lot because it seems the most beneficial thing to do. But of course, as you're getting higher and higher in the ranks, you've become more confident and able to say, no, this is what I think in Israel because of the trans issue, again, in inverted commas.

Because of that, that kind of opened a sort of very ugly kind of worms within the SMP. Because the SMP does have very socially conservative people on it. It also has economically conservative people on it. But the social conservatism, it hadn't shown itself for a long time. You know, and particularly during Nicholas leadership, it was very much, you know, this is the direction we're going in. We are believing progress, we believe in equality and the rights of everyone.

and then suddenly when, oh, oh, so it's okay to challenge that now? All right, well, since we're talking about the challenge. I see those gays that, you know, and suddenly it just unleashes. I think that was kind of what happened. Those beliefs have always been there. It's just that suddenly there was the opportunity to be able to... So if the glue of independence kind of weakens, it just crumbles. I think so, yeah. And I think...

That's partly why the SNP got such a bruising result in the general election is because the outside world could see these cracks, they could see that we are not. And they could see maybe that you hadn't delivered on the stuff that you talked about in your maiden speech? Yeah.

And I do think there's also an element of, in that election there, where people are just so fed up. They want something to change. And if you're not going to do it right or older, and folk aren't as, they don't have the same, I suppose, space to be able to get involved in politics because more and more people are spending every weekend minute just trying to survive. It becomes much more difficult to get folk engaged. Tell us about

what you do if you were Prime Minister. So, Kearsam has come in. We're doing this interview exactly 100 days into his time. And it certainly feels at the moment as though he hasn't really found his narrative. He's obviously not quite Jeremy Corbyn, he's not quite Tony, but now imagine Mary Black becomes Prime Minister. What fundamentally is your vision for where you would take, I guess, not Britain but Scotland over 2030 is what kind of economic policy, what kind

Oh, I would be looking much more to the Scandinavian countries to see what's worked there and what hasn't. I think not just in terms of the likes for instance, yes, citizens income, basic income, I would implement that immediately. That would be the first thing. So that at least we know, right, there's some radical change that's happened and it's actually putting pounds in people's pockets.

So that would be the first thing. If you're going to fundamentally change society, you have to do it in tandem with each other. So education has to change in a way that, for instance, mental health sector can actually provide this level of support that young kids need.

or the teenagers need or whatever, that then sets up a whole generation of young people who've had skills and abilities and support the generations before them haven't had. When they then come out into the world, hopefully that would kind of change their way of thinking. And from there, you're able to, you know, just folk who are going to have opportunities they never would have had. They can go

explore the world in ways that they couldn't before, like my folks been able to go to university. The only reason we were able to do that is because the then Labour government went right now. How much money have shouldn't affect your ability to further your education. So what's your sense of why Kiyastama isn't doing it and looks like he's not going to be able to bring that kind of radical change?

The impression I get is, well first off, I don't think he or Stan was left wing. That's the first thing. I think he's a very pragmatic and practical to a fault to the point where I think to an extent he's similar to Sam and then that he'll say what he has to say in order to get where he needs to go. So his beliefs will change radically.

But I also think part of his issue is, he doesn't know who he's picking a fight with. And when you're Prime Minister, you need to know, what is it we're tackling? And right now I think that he's so comfortable with his campaign slogans and the platitudes. I think that's how we're at worse than to see him flounder.

Well, if we had more time, I would absolutely leap to his defence and speak for 25 minutes about the very good job he's doing the amazing work. However, the producer is just pointing to her three fingers and a watch. My last question is this. Two things, really. Do you think in your lifetime, Scotland will be independent? And secondly, will you stay engaged in classical campaigning, engaged in politics? Or you just want now for the rest of your life to do new things?

I'm absolutely going to stay engaged in politics. You're like I say, it's everywhere. You know, I think, especially when your brain's kind of hardwired to see the political angle of everything, it's hard to escape. In my lifetime, I do think so. I have no doubt that Scotland will become independent. It's just a case of how and when it happens. But you don't think that the kind of watermark, the high watermark breaks, it's just happened. Johnson's leading the country making complete ass of it.

You don't think that was the absolute peak of the independence movement? It should have been, do I think it was definitely a peak, but no, I think we will get independence, but I suppose where I'm fearful is it will either be a civic movement that much like the Scottish Parliament being established, or it will be essentially, to put it crudely, England saying, no, we don't want you anymore, just cutting off. It will be one of the two of them, and I don't know which it will be, but I've no doubt that it will happen.

My final question, do you ever feel guilty for leaving parliament? Do you ever feel I should have stayed? I mean, I do. I guess is why I'm asking. I sometimes feel because I found it very painful, very unpleasant. When people stop me saying, well, you know, why are you not going back? You know, when she runs, I find it difficult to say, I just couldn't do that anymore.

Well, no, I don't feel guilty because I suppose I always looked at it. Don't let me know that I took the responsibility seriously and it was a very heavy thing and you know he's representing people but it was a job and I firmly believe that you work to live another way about and I'm a human being and ultimately if I'm miserable then yes in my head it might be for some grandeur cause and some big thing but

You need to go with your gut, you can only do what you can do and if your body and your mind's telling you, stop. Gonna stop then. I think if anything, it's in a broad sense, it would be more selfish to stay because then I would be representing people in my heart's know and I'm not being able to give my best and, you know, if you're tired, it starts to show. So in that sense, no, I don't feel guilty personally and professionally. I think it's the right thing to do, definitely.

Well, wish you well for the rest of your life. Thank you. We've got a long way to go because you're still one of the youngest ex-parliamentarians. We'll see you before I'm 40 then. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

So Rory, you've got a fellow utterly fed up with parliamenter. Yeah, and it's interesting. I mean, I think our analysis of parliament is different, but our emotional reaction to it is very, very, very similar, which makes me wonder whether we're not missing something, whether there isn't a kind of deeper structural similarity hidden behind the things that are worrying us. Well, you're basically a nationalist.

You will ask her to be a dependence. Yeah, obviously she thinks the problem with parliament is it's full of union, oldie-tonian toffs and conservatives, which isn't obviously what I think parliament is. But I imagine that's what we're guessing at at a deeper level. When she talks about bullying, I think that's something I recognise there, about the whole culture of the place. When we talk about the way the whips work, the way that party loyalty works,

the nonsense the debating chamber and one of the problems is that the solutions that we propose never adequate so when she says well you know maybe change the shape of the debating chamber, get rid of some of the traditions well basically you then create the Scottish Parliament which she then admits she doesn't want to be in the Scottish Parliament either.

No, but I think I was fascinated by what she, the way she described all these different factions and tensions and how they came up. I hadn't really thought about what she said about the trans issue. And she's right. Lots of people would be really angry. They'll say, what are you saying? We don't really believe in what we say. But I think she gave a very good sense of that fact that you've got some very right-wing people in the SMP. You've got some very left-wing people. You've got some people who are very socially conservative. You've got some people who are very, very liberal. And

What she seems to be saying is that I love that thing. She said that if independence did happen, the SMP kind of ceases to exist because it ceases to have a purpose. I hadn't really thought about that. But I think she's a real loss to politics. I really do. I think she's got real character. I think she's really strong in terms of what she believes.

You know, the reason she got 10 million views for her maiden speech is a bloody good speaker. I think it's sad that she's gone. I wish I wish it stayed, but I understand why she's gone. Yeah, I also wonder whether she's not pointing to something there, which is she talks about socially liberal, socially conservative in the opposite. And in a way, all our politics are these sort of four quadrants, different types of people.

Oddly, what I was picking up is the SMP doesn't really have the kind of one-nation conservative type who'd be socially liberal and economically conservative, sort of relaxed about trans issues, but quite fiscally conservative. And that the group that she's talking about are probably relatively socially conservative, but also quite economically interventionist, economically a little bit more left-wing, which is the direction to a lot of the world is going. And I wonder

Yeah, it's a very interesting thing that she's put her finger on because I do often feel that as a Scotland is more socially conservative in many ways than England. Do you think so? Yeah, yeah. Although the leaders of the S&P and the sort of political class is very progressive, no, I think this is a country which

Often has a sort of odd relationship with itself. Sometimes it would be provocative. It's a country that sounds very pro-immigration, but just doesn't have very many immigrants. It's very, very white compared to other parts of the country. As soon as you say, because I remember we talked there about Kate Forbes, and, you know, I know, because I talked to before, I'm very black about this, when Kate Forbes was running, she found it just incredibly difficult.

But I remember at the time, people in Scotland and ticking outside the central belt, saying to me that you underestimate just how much people actually are quite close to Kate Forbes on this sort of issue. So, yeah, maybe you've got a point. In some ways, Scotland is sort of odd combination of sounding very kind of progressive, but also quite old-fashioned. I guess that's also true of Scandinavian countries, as we're seeing with the rise of the... Absolutely. ...the right in Scandinavia, yeah.

Anyway, hopelessness enjoyed it. We did. I loved it, right? Thank you very much. And thank you for getting married. I really I really I really want her and I thought I agree with you. She's a loss and she's a great way of getting people thinking about politics. Thank you.